Pre-Specters of the Rail PC Players are still waiting for their stolen-opportunity Archwing/ArchWeapon Slot compensation.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Moderators closed the last thread, but the issue isn't resolved. Like I said on petitioning to revert the closure - While the issue persists, I will keep pushing for it to be addressed.

 

Consoles got forewarned.

Console players, by their own admission and understandably so, took the opportunity after seeing the change happen on PC to farm up all existing gear (and extra duplicates) to be grandfathered in as free Archwing/Archweapon slots, meaning they got to generate cash value advantage over PC players at the time.

 

Archwing Defense was also notably removed due to dissatisfactory gameplay, so it is unreasonable to expect players with no forewarning to have specifically taken the time there to grind out their full gear sets in advance of the undocumented change without warning. Of course, now all the gear (excepting variants) is made from Syndicate offerings instead of mission drop RNG, so there's no argument to have expected grinding for any of it, really.

 

This is still NOT excusable. PC players from the time should be, at the very least, granted compensatory Archweapon slots so that their minimum is 15 before having to buy any more - the number of pre-existing weapon options.

[SonicSonedit]

I think not.

[Suncake]

I don't think that it's such a big deal. Archwing gameplay considered underwhelming by the most players, and you don't really need all these arch-weapons, having a couple of guns and melees is just enough.

Quote

Console players, by their own admission and understandably so, took the opportunity after seeing the change happen on PC to farm up all existing gear (andextra duplicates) to be grandfathered in as free Archwing/Archweapon slots, meaning they got to generate cash value advantage over PC players at the time.

As a PC user, I still feel superior to them because of more frequent and outrunning updates, tennogen stuff and better graphics (even though I can't run the game on high settings because of my weak rig lol).

[ShikaRoddy]

Yep. that's kinda unfair, but come on, can we complain about unfairness in a game where devs can ban people anytime with or without reason?

[Varacal]

1 minute ago, ShikaRoddy said:

Yep. that's kinda unfair, but come on, can we complain about unfairness in a game where devs can ban people anytime with or without reason?

if you read the EULA and agreed to it, then it isnt unfair

 

@topic i mean everything else in the game needs you to fork up some plat for slots, why would archwing stuffs be different, if anything, it should have been like that from the start, so just keep pushing it, i doubt anything will happen

[LunarEdge7]

7 minutes ago, Varacal said:

if you read the EULA and agreed to it, then it isnt unfair

Not everyone reads the EULA weekly like a bible.

Almost everyone doesn't do that.

I've heard quite a few instances where players get banned without some logical reason. It's just 'banned for profanity/some-other-word-that-doesn't-specify-the-cause-of-the-ban.'

And other times, they get banned for reasons the EULA itself doesn't state.

@EDYinnit, I don't think many people care anymore about this. It also feels like throwing a letter on to a brick wall. Compared to the main game and PvP, Archwing is the opposite of improving slowly over time. I like the current moving system now, but a majority of players want the previous one back, and I can understand that.

TL;DR: Hardly anyone gives a cow's dung on anything to do with Archwing anymore. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by LunarEdge7
Minor edit

[ShikaRoddy]

19 minutes ago, Varacal said:

if you read the EULA and agreed to it, then it isnt unfair

 

@topic i mean everything else in the game needs you to fork up some plat for slots, why would archwing stuffs be different, if anything, it should have been like that from the start, so just keep pushing it, i doubt anything will happen

It should have been like that from the start, true, but changing it without notifying people beforehand is not a good thing to do

[TheLexiConArtist]

47 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

I think not.

Elaborate.

41 minutes ago, Suncake said:

I don't think that it's such a big deal. Archwing gameplay considered underwhelming by the most players, and you don't really need all these arch-weapons, having a couple of guns and melees is just enough.

As a PC user, I still feel superior to them because of more frequent and outrunning updates, tennogen stuff and better graphics (even though I can't run the game on high settings because of my weak rig lol).

The gameplay is irrelevant. I (or any other affected person) may or may not be one of those rare players who like Archwing. It's about the disingenuous way this whole thing was handled. It's the principle of the matter.

24 minutes ago, ShikaRoddy said:

Yep. that's kinda unfair, but come on, can we complain about unfairness in a game where devs can ban people anytime with or without reason?

Yes.

21 minutes ago, Varacal said:

@topic i mean everything else in the game needs you to ork up some plat for slots, why would archwing stuffs be different, if anything, it should have been like that from the start, so just keep pushing it, i doubt anything will happen

If it was like that from the start this topic and its predecessor wouldn't be necessary. But it wasn't. Implementing premium currency charges with no warning is not good business practice. It's disgusting, insulting to customers. Especially when some subsets of said customers were not subject to these surprise charges.

 

Going forward, I would probably pay the plat for Archwing and Archweapon slots. But I demand compensation for players preceding the switch to at least have a fair minimum based on what was attainable before the update. Archwings - fine, there were four (Odonata, Elytron, Itzal, Odonata Prime) and we got four slots. There were 15 weapons, however. We got four slots. That's underhanded considering the ability to game the grandfather clause that console players enjoyed.

 

@LunarEdge7 - I refuse to let an underhanded change be swept under the proverbial rug. It's our right (and responsibility) as a customer base to take a company to task when they do something of this nature.

Ignoring something doesn't make it go away. And I enjoy the rest of the game so much, I'll be here, reminding DE and everyone else what happened, unless and until they admit their mistake and fix it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by EDYinnit

[SonicSonedit]

5 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Elaborate.

I can not see any valid reason for this. The only advantage of forewarning is that people would try to aquire as much archwings and archwing weapons as possible to get free slots, that's all. Also OP post reeks of elitism with all this bold and upper case.

[LunarEdge7]

Just now, SonicSonedit said:

Also OP post reeks of elitism with all this bold and upper case.

It's called emphasising. 

[Gelkor]

Honestly, in retrospect I wish I hadn't built the extra Archwing Weapons and Elytrons I made back in the day that turned into extra AW slots.

I did it because the parts weren't trad-able and didn't look like they ever would be.  If I had held on to them, the all those extra parts go for about 10-20 plat a piece, would have been more cost effective to sell the parts and buy slots than the free slots I got for building my extras. 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

I can not see any valid reason for this. The only advantage of forewarning is that people would try to aquire as much archwings and archwing weapons as possible to get free slots, that's all. Also OP post reeks of elitism with all this bold and upper case.

Which they did. Which is directly interpretable to a cash value. Which is inequal treatment of customers based on an underhanded change that only affected one subsection of them.

 

Imagine if you will, an option on the main site - "Enter your payment details and we will credit you £10 (or equivalent local currency)".

Now imagine that specifically exempts a certain platform. In this case, PC.

Don't you think it's understandable that the players on that specific platform would feel unfairly excluded, by virtue of no fault, simply their choice of playing on PC?

Edited December 5, 2016 by EDYinnit

[armedpoop]

30 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

Also OP post reeks of elitism with all this bold and upper case.

Are you serious? You are gonna ad hominim? Sad. Since when does emphasizing something make you an elitist? Where do you even get that from? Making use of the text tools available to you makes you an elitist? 

 

Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree OP!

[Ins.]

People had almost 2 years, from the 24th of October 2014 to July 8th 2016 to get all the archwing stuff without paying for slots. If you were playing in that period and didn't get the gear, you are the only one to blame. And for the people that started playing post SotR, the acquisition of archwing gear was made so much easier that having to pay for slots seems trivial.

There was no stolen opportunity, it was an ignored opportunity by all the players that didn't get archwing gear when slots were free.

I don't see any players that got their stuff before SotR asking for compensation for all the grind they did in order to get all the archwing gear they want when now you just get them from the dojo or syndicates.

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, ShikaRoddy said:

Yep. that's kinda unfair, but come on, can we complain about unfairness in a game where devs can ban people anytime with or without reason?

Devs dont ban without reason. They tend to ban if people breach the terms of service that we all agree too in order to play. And plenty of people complain on the forums anyway. 'Locking' isnt the devs trying to hide negativity, they would just delete the treads.

 

It also wasnt unfair in any way. The Devs said: 'This was a mistake, were changing it. However if you've already earned this stuff we wont punish you for it.' Its the same with the change to Steel charge. If you leveled it past the max they reduced it to, you got a legendary core. If you didnt level it you didnt get the core. Its not DE punishing those who didnt put the work in at the time, but rewarding those that did.

[RistN]

Change that you can purchase archwing parts from syndicates is in my opinion greatest mistake DE ever made.Farming for that parts made me love archwing and gave me reason to upgrade my gear and play those missions.Why would anyone play archwing now?Where is fun in that?

PS

Console players are always complaining on how pc players get stuff first not realizing they are ones that are truly lucky cause of this.They always know what to expect unlike us.

[TotallyLagging]

I'm afraid the only thing you can do is to accept the "Yup, surprise!™" Archwing slots OP. I highly doubt they'd do any sort of reimbursements.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, ShikaRoddy said:

It should have been like that from the start, true, but changing it without notifying people beforehand is not a good thing to do

did you know they can do a global reset whenever and they will only give you what you purchased with  money. Oh you had 1600+ hours? O well.

[Cray]

6 minutes ago, -Voltage- said:

did you know they can do a global reset whenever and they will only give you what you purchased with  money. Oh you had 1600+ hours? O well.

Legally covering their posteriors. While they did do the occasional "respec" in early pre-U8 times, there's a snowball's chance in hell they'd ever do something like that again.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Ins. said:

People had almost 2 years, from the 24th of October 2014 to July 8th 2016 to get all the archwing stuff without paying for slots. If you were playing in that period and didn't get the gear, you are the only one to blame. And for the people that started playing post SotR, the acquisition of archwing gear was made so much easier that having to pay for slots seems trivial.

There was no stolen opportunity, it was an ignored opportunity by all the players that didn't get archwing gear when slots were free.

I don't see any players that got their stuff before SotR asking for compensation for all the grind they did in order to get all the archwing gear they want when now you just get them from the dojo or syndicates.

Fallacious.

Look at facts:

• An archwing game mode was removed due to being horribly unattractive and unpopular (ergo people don't want to grind there)
• No indication was made in advance of the change (no motivation to suffer the unpleasant game mode)
• People will freely put off the grind 'until later' when they perceive that they have an indeterminately long time in which to perform it.

I didn't 'ignore archwing' myself. I just had terrible RNG in Caelus gathering parts there, and when I wasn't there, I was doing something which did (and does) have a definite shelf-life - farming the Void for Primes, which we all know are going to be vaulted as time goes on.

I could have shared out that time more aggressively towards Archwing Defense if I had fair warning that Archwing slots would become limited and I needed to get my weapons built now to enjoy the automatically acquired slots. So yes. That's stolen opportunity, and because Consoles had that luxury it's unfair, inequal treatment that should be compensated.

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

It also wasnt unfair in any way. The Devs said: 'This was a mistake, were changing it. However if you've already earned this stuff we wont punish you for it.' Its the same with the change to Steel charge. If you leveled it past the max they reduced it to, you got a legendary core. If you didnt level it you didnt get the core. Its not DE punishing those who didnt put the work in at the time, but rewarding those that did.

No they didn't. The change was undocumented, even.

It took eleven hotfixes into Specters of the Rail just to give a patch note acknowledging Archwing slots becoming limited/charged-for at all.

Your analogy is completely different to this problem. Instead, it's more like allowing people to have rank-10 Steel Charges if they had them previously but disallowing or charging Platinum to allow anybody else after the change ranking it past 5. Also it was all done without any forewarning, and console players also got the patch sufficiently delayed that all of those have 10-rank steel charges because they knew it was being taken out in advance of it happening on their platform.

 

So let's look at how it actually translates here; I want a fair minimum based on previous possibilities (you don't have to go find a new Steel Charge to rank up, your previous one is just throttled down to 5; I don't want all the weapons given, just the slots I would've been able to acquire from building each existing item) but people who did build more still get more out of the deal (free slots beyond the fair minimums due to built duplicates; owners of Rank >5 Steel Charges get their Legendary core).

 

The only way to equal the playing field fully (accounting for duplicate-item amassers) is to reimburse all platinum purchases of slots and revert the change entirely, but at least giving the existing players fair minimum slot counts is compensation that still involves paying platinnum for slots in the future.

[chaotea]

14 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

So let's look at how it actually translates here; I want a fair minimum based on previous possibilities (you don't have to go find a new Steel Charge to rank up, your previous one is just throttled down to 5; I don't want all the weapons given, just the slots I would've been able to acquire from building each existing item) but people who did build more still get more out of the deal (free slots beyond the fair minimums due to built duplicates; owners of Rank >5 Steel Charges get their Legendary core).

I should point out that i didnt make so much as 1 archwing. I payed plat for every one. As such i would have received a free item slot with it, as is generally the case.

Would it be fair if i got an additional slot because of what youve noted? I think not, yet it would be equally unfair to give a slot to people who hadnt made the archwings and deny it to those who did build or buy archwings. Either way, there is no 'fair' way of dealing with this, and no way to do so without angering people.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

 

Quote

 

Look at facts:

• An archwing game mode was removed due to being horribly unattractive and unpopular (ergo people don't want to grind there)
• No indication was made in advance of the change (no motivation to suffer the unpleasant game mode)
• People will freely put off the grind 'until later' when they perceive that they have an indeterminately long time in which to perform it.

 

Exuse me, but why you think this will be fair?

I mean, somebody play Arch and grind. As a result he have free slots.

You don't play Arch. You now can buy parts from a syndicates.

Why you think there is any problem somebody should fix? People put effort and get reward. You don't do anything and got nothing. Looks legit.

[TheLexiConArtist]

20 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Exuse me, but why you think this will be fair?

I mean, somebody play Arch and grind. As a result he have free slots.

You don't play Arch. You now can buy parts from a syndicates.

Why you think there is any problem somebody should fix? People put effort and get reward. You don't do anything and got nothing. Looks legit.

Nice misrepresentation of the argument you have going on there. I do love dismantling strawmen.

I played Archwing, just not exhaustively.

Because there was no reasonable expectation that the slots would be anything but free in the immediate future, and Archwing Interception was already being awful with its RNG on parts, I hadn't gone to the drudgery of cleaning out Archwing Defense. The mode they removed because it was not enjoyable, I didn't feel inclined to spend 'free' time grinding in. Makes sense, right?

 

It's fair to demand compensation because it was an underhanded change that caused inequality between players on different platforms. It's fair to demand this because there was no fair warning beforehand. It's fair to demand the issue be acknowledged and addressed because "Surprise, give us money now for this thing we yanked out from under you!" is disrespectful.

I and many like me would have redistributed play time to grind out Archwing gear if we knew that an imminent change was coming. But since we had, by all observable factors, all the time in the world with no change to expect, we treated it accordingly. Spend time mostly on other pursuits, Archwing gear will 'always be there' when we feel up to having another pull of the RNG slot machine.

Edited December 5, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Ins.]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Fallacious.

Look at facts:

• An archwing game mode was removed due to being horribly unattractive and unpopular (ergo people don't want to grind there)
• No indication was made in advance of the change (no motivation to suffer the unpleasant game mode)
• People will freely put off the grind 'until later' when they perceive that they have an indeterminately long time in which to perform it.

I didn't 'ignore archwing' myself. I just had terrible RNG in Caelus gathering parts there, and when I wasn't there, I was doing something which did (and does) have a definite shelf-life - farming the Void for Primes, which we all know are going to be vaulted as time goes on.

• People didn't want to grind yet they did. In order to get the parts they needed for certain archwing weapons, grinding and crafting those weapons came with free slots.

          It is infinitely simpler to get said parts now, so you have to pay for slots. Weapon and warframe slots being a system implemented since the beginning of warframe, it was obvious from the implementation of archwing that slots would someday come for archwing gear.

 

• No indication was indeed made and I agree that DE should try to better communicate changes.

          You say you had no motivation to get them due to the horrible grind, now your motivation has changed because of the simplicity of acquisition. It sounds very entitled of you to ask for compensation, when the players that got free slots had to go through horrible grind, while you just have to click a few times or trade in order to get the parts you want.

 

• DE never said the free slots was intended, and it was expected of them to implement payed slots as soon as they update archwing again.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

29 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Nice misrepresentation of the argument you have going on there. I do love dismantling strawmen.

I played Archwing, just not exhaustively.

Because there was no reasonable expectation that the slots would be anything but free in the immediate future, and Archwing Interception was already being awful with its RNG on parts, I hadn't gone to the drudgery of cleaning out Archwing Defense. The mode they removed because it was not enjoyable, I didn't feel inclined to spend 'free' time grinding in. Makes sense, right?

 

It's fair to demand compensation because it was an underhanded change that caused inequality between players on different platforms. It's fair to demand this because there was no fair warning beforehand. It's fair to demand the issue be acknowledged and addressed because "Surprise, give us money now!" is disrespectful.

I and many like me would have redistributed play time to grind out Archwing gear if we knew that an imminent change was coming. But since we had, by all observable factors, all the time in the world with no change to expect, we treated it accordingly. Spend time mostly on other pursuits, Archwing gear will 'always be there' when we feel up to having another pull of the RNG slot machine.

No misrepresentation. This is exactly the same. You don't play archwing exhaustively -- you don't get a slot.

This is not a argument of your opinion, just try to get it. Yes, i don't like to pay for something too. No matter what. This is unfair nobody give me something for free. (notice this is exactly what you are trying to say).

Now, let's take a look at people who got a gift.

1. This is actual Archwing players. Oh, i mean exhaustevely Archwing players, this is matter =)

2. Console players.

1.  You stand at point you deserve even more, since now you can get this parts from a syndicate. Don't you think you ask too much?

2. As about consoles, they are always in a strange position. There is many bugs, many fixes and sometimes this advantage, sometimes not (as a ducats from Kuva farm, i guess PS and XBOX will not have it). You just can't stand at this point.

 

So, try to understood. Nobody at PC know about changes. Nobody never have mention "slots will be free forever". This is your choice and your fault. You think "Archwing gear will always be there" and was wrong. Next time you be lucky and game became less grindy while you do nothing. Actually it is already so. Now you don't need to grind Arch mission to get em.

Your point "nobody says to me what will be in future, so give me free slots" just have no sence.

Edited December 5, 2016 by -JT-_-R3W1ND