Don't sugarcoat the relic system.

[MystMan]

I find it strange you guys are bringing up your hours like those numbers are a lot.

Two pages back I wrote my experience with Void system for a time span of 2+ years. It took me 3 months to get everything of each Prime release. And I play Warframe extensively every day. These hours you guys write down are nothing in comparison. RNG is RNG. But the old RNG was slow and locked in specific Void tileset missions. This new RNG is fast and takes place everywhere in any type of mission. That alone is why many like the relic system. The RNG hasn't really improved but at least to get a specific rare part you don't have to pretend to be a human turret in one place cheesing at the incoming enemies for hours/days/weeks who keep scaling up in levels under the false guise of "challenging". (because it's not, it's just cheese). 

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

********* OMG you're right!  He was probably LYING to me, that evil nefarious, misleading person..... of course he had MOTIVE!!  And that motive to LIE and DECEIVE us all was..... um.... nope..... got nothing.  Sorry.   In fact he was rather specific, and relayed the number in an account of what he had been through (a small sadly entertaining story, you should have been there - we laughed, we cried, we bought the DVD)......

Oh, wow. You really should consider calming down and reading more carefully. Let's break this down, shall we?

First of all, you said:

27 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

TOTAL TIME FOR ONE SINGLE AXI E1 RELIC to be obtained, made radiant, and then used with a well coordinated group = TWO HOURS OR MORE.

This is how long it took YOU to get ONE E1. Is it the average time it takes? who knows? You literally have one single piece of data.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

One of the people in that very team said, "I hope I get the Ember BP this time.... this will be my 14th ATTEMPT."

14th attempt?!?!?!?  At two hours per total "Gain & Run"...?!?!?!  :-O
28 HOURS in FAILED attempts to get the Ember BP?!?!?

Here you are assuming that every one of that other person's runs took that same 2 hours. You didn't say that he said that he spent 28 hours, you just assumed that by mutliplying HIS number of runs by YOUR time to do one single run. If you had more info than this, you didn't initially post it.

 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

How exactly am I supposed to "post evidence?"  That is a ridiculous statement

I don't mean evidence in terms of screenshots, I mean evidence in terms of more than just the one data point you actually have. One time it took you 2 hours to get an E1. That's all we know.

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

Making it seem like somebody farmed for 28 hours and got nothing is very misleading,

******** That number was obtained by simple algebra, multiplying the time to obtain & upgrade x the number of runs numerous people - including yourself just now - have said they have spent on it.  We can round it down to, oh say, 25 hours if that makes you happy.

Once again, that wasn't just empty grinding. You got other things along the way. I don't regret the hours I spent not getting ember bp's, because I got all that other stuff I mentioned. It's not like the game knows *which* part you're "trying" to get.

 

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

In fact he was rather specific, and relayed the number in an account of what he had been through

But did he say 28 hours? Or 4 tries? Because all you said before was that it was his 14th try. According to your own story, he said nothing about how long it took him.

 

Btw, just to be clear, we CAN be more specific about things. For example, it will take people *on average* 10 radiant relics to get the rare part. Sometimes more, sometimes less. The chances of running 14 radiant relics and not getting a rare part are found by 0.9^14 or 22.9%, and the probability of getting at least one rare part in 14 tries is 1 - (.9^14) which is 77.1%. So that guy was actually unlucky, and well above average as far as failed attempts go. Unless, of course, there's a bug in the drop tables, which is possible. But in order to claim that there is one, we need more than just one or two points of data.

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

9 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Oh, wow. You really should consider calming down and reading more carefully. Let's break this down, shall we?

First of all, you said:

This is how long it took YOU to get ONE E1. Is it the average time it takes? who knows? You literally have one single piece of data.

 

Here you are assuming that every one of that other person's runs took that same 2 hours. You didn't say that he said that he spent 28 hours, you just assumed that by mutliplying HIS number of runs by YOUR time to do one single run. If you had more info than this, you didn't initially post it.

 

I don't mean evidence in terms of screenshots, I mean evidence in terms of more than just the one data point you actually have. One time it took you 2 hours to get an E1. That's all we know.

 

Once again, that wasn't just empty grinding. You got other things along the way. I don't regret the hours I spent not getting ember bp's, because I got all that other stuff I mentioned. It's not like the game knows *which* part you're "trying" to get.

 

But did he say 28 hours? Or 4 tries? Because all you said before was that it was his 14th try. According to your own story, he said nothing about how long it took him.

 

Btw, just to be clear, we CAN be more specific about things. For example, it will take people *on average* 10 radiant relics to get the rare part. Sometimes more, sometimes less. The chances of running 14 radiant relics and not getting a rare part are found by 0.9^14 or 22.9%, and the probability of getting at least one rare part in 14 tries is 1 - (.9^14) which is 77.1%. So that guy was actually unlucky, and well above average as far as failed attempts go. Unless, of course, there's a bug in the drop tables, which is possible. But in order to claim that there is one, we need more than just one or two points of data.

Ok, since you are obviously someone who cannot see past their own thoughts, I will now break this down for you....

"This is how long it took YOU to get ONE E1. Is it the average time it takes? who knows? You literally have one single piece of data."

********* Er, no.  Please turn on your thinking glasses and re-read how several times I clearly stated "myself and a group of people I regularly play with ALL CONFIRMED the same experience."  In fact, just go into pretty much ANY chat forum and ASK people for average times.  You will get a plethora of evidence.  You really need to READ what I wrote and not just react with your knee-jerk attempt to "be right."  Thanks.

And while you posted some really pretty numbers, exactly where did you get the basis for your numbers?  "by 0.9^14 or 22.9%, and the probability of getting at least one rare part in 14 tries is 1 - (.9^14) which is 77.1%."   These are like random meme statistics such as "88% of all internet statistics and quotes are false -- Abraham Lincoln"

[Azrael]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

Er, no.  Please turn on your thinking glasses and re-read how several times I clearly stated "myself and a group of people I regularly play with ALL CONFIRMED the same experience."

You didn't say that until your second post. And you never actually said that this guy with 14 failed attempts actually told you he spent 28 hours running those 14 relics. That "2 hours" number came from your comment about how long you spent to get one relic. Also, even 4 people is a small sample size. You'll want a few dozen at least before we can start doing math and making claims.

 

30 minutes ago, (PS4)BMWWOW said:

And while you posted some really pretty numbers, exactly where did you get the basis for your numbers?  "by 0.9^14 or 22.9%, and the probability of getting at least one rare part in 14 tries is 1 - (.9^14) which is 77.1%."   These are like random meme statistics such as "88% of all internet statistics and quotes are false -- Abraham Lincoln"

I did a thing called math. You see, I took statistics in college. And I have this nifty program on my computer called a calculator. But lol at calling them "meme statistics."

Edited December 18, 2016 by Azrael

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, MystMan said:

Two pages back I wrote my experience with Void system for a time span of 2+ years. It took me 3 months to get everything of each Prime release.

I know, right? People seem to think that you used to be able to get everything in a PA in just a few hours. And 150 plat for a part that can only be found for the next couple weeks is nothing. Especially since the main reason the Ember bp was so expensive before was that it was extremely rare, and where did it drop? Oh yeah, in the old void. If Ember had been farmable in the old void as easily as some people seem to think, people wouldn't have been buying sets for 1600 plat after she was vaulted.

[TheLexiConArtist]

40 minutes ago, Azrael said:

I know, right? People seem to think that you used to be able to get everything in a PA in just a few hours. And 150 plat for a part that can only be found for the next couple weeks is nothing. Especially since the main reason the Ember bp was so expensive before was that it was extremely rare, and where did it drop? Oh yeah, in the old void. If Ember had been farmable in the old void as easily as some people seem to think, people wouldn't have been buying sets for 1600 plat after she was vaulted.

As I recall it, Ember's blueprint suffered the same supply-based price inflation as Nova systems.

Which was because they weren't from the Void. They were from the Derelict, which lacked the consolation-prize and AAB payouts of the Void endless missions, meaning that people weren't terribly inclined to do those runs as often, despite how easily-acquired keys needed to go for those rolls were...

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I like the new system but when you get to a point where you need one or two specific parts, it MIGHT get difficult. I ran 11 radiant only missions and didnt get the cernos prime lower limb. This situation has a chance of 1.2% of happening. My last run was with a guy who did it 13 times. 

When PA launches and you have to farm all the relics, you end up getting relics for the parts. When you need a specific relic, it starts to be more difficult. 

In my case, I had more than a million points in syndicate points because I was farming medallions for 90 days. Only the Cernos Prime was a pain. 

[Flirk2]

2 minutes ago, Azrael said:

I know, right? People seem to think that you used to be able to get everything in a PA in just a few hours.

Funny how you totally ignored that a lot of people who would prefer the old void brought up how much more pleasant the experience was, and some (myself, for example) even stated outright that not getting something in the old void felt better than not getting something in the new system.

But you build yourself an easy to argue against ''got everything in a few hours'' opposition.

I understand, that it's much harder to argue points as:

1) relics have shelf life (to the point of not even having links for the vaulted ones)

2) relics have less of a drop rate than keys had, but 4 times higher usage rate at minimum. (2000 cryotic run with 2 or 3 relics is not as rare as you want it to be)

3) the amount of time spent in loading screens and recruiting chat has gone up to stupid levels.

4) trace farming in endless does not work. At least not as good as people try to make it sound. As you need to spend relics to get traces there, the boosters are a laugh (+25% on a 10 traces drop does not a happy tenno make), and finding a squad that will take it to wave 8 of interception is a chore even if you have the relics to spare.

5) fissure missions spawn nullifiers (buffed to wipe Frost's snow globes) willy-nilly. Right on top of you and often multiple nullifiers at once. This severely limits frame choice, weapon choice and play style.

6) reward system had glitches that made a lot of people's life miserable. And there is nothing to indicate it doesn't have them still. (after all, you want me to prove my point with statistics, but you didn't bother to prove your point with it...)

 

And the last one... You always say it's an anecdote. But I had a little too many of those recently.

For example today. From a radiant relic you have 20% drop chance for an uncommon part.

4 radiant relics of the same type were used by the squad I was in in 4 waves of interception. 2 radiant relics were used by me and 2 by another squad member.  Everyone else went with intacts.

4 same uncommon drops we got from those radiant relics.

That's 0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2 = 0.0016. 0.16% of that happening.

I wonder, how many 0.16% events do you want me to show before you consider a thought that there is something wrong with reward generating process?

Because for now it feels like I have more 0.16% events (same uncommon drop 4 times) than 34% events (1 rare drop for 4 radiant relics used in sequence).

And before you say ''you'll need a larger sample for statistics'', I know. I'm not attempting to chart a distribution here. I'm just trying to point out that even a slight bug in the reward generation will put people who don't have time to play the game all day long every day, or patience for relic/trace farming missions into depression. While the large statistics will not suffer.

[Azrael]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

As I recall it, Ember's blueprint suffered the same supply-based price inflation as Nova systems.

Which was because they weren't from the Void. They were from the Derelict, which lacked the consolation-prize and AAB payouts of the Void endless missions, meaning that people weren't terribly inclined to do those runs as often, despite how easily-acquired keys needed to go for those rolls were...

I seem to remember that the bp could drop in the void as well, but you may be right. Still, what I meant was that the bp dropped in the old void system, meaning before the switch to relics. An argument was being made about the cost of the bp reflecting an absurd rarity, and I was saying that the cost went through the roof because of an absurd rarity in the old system, so saying that the old one was better based on Ember prime is questionable. You could very well be right, though, about it dropping in the derelict. I hated it when parts dropped there.

[Azrael]

42 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

But you build yourself an easy to argue against ''got everything in a few hours'' opposition.

I understand, that it's much harder to argue points as:

Oh, please don't do this. I wasn't responding to you, I was talking about the guy that complained because people might spend 28 hours looking for something, and we were saying that wasn't a lot. Don't make me out to be some strawman-using a-hole just because what I said in response to a weak argument doesn't work against a stronger one. But since when did relics have a shelf life? Mine don't have an expiration date.

 

42 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

5) fissure missions spawn nullifiers (buffed to wipe Frost's snow globes) willy-nilly. Right on top of you and often multiple nullifiers at once. This severely limits frame choice, weapon choice and play style.

I have argued for nerfs to nullies in many threads. You won't get any argument from me here.

 

42 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I wonder, how many 0.16% events do you want me to show before you consider a thought that there is something wrong with reward generating process?

Because for now it feels like I have more 0.16% events (same uncommon drop 4 times) than 34% events (1 rare drop for 4 radiant relics used in sequence).

Okay, so I mostly just want to respond to this, to make something clear. I am NOT fanboying or white-knighting over the relic system. I have said, in this thread even, that it needs some work. I am also not opposed to the suggestion that there may be something wrong with the tables. I would like to spend my time arguing for a slightly different system that reduces the number of relics. I would also like a codebase audit to show that the drop chances are working properly.

But I don't feel like I can, because in order to do so we need to make sure we are saying things that are fair, reasonable, and true. When people say "it took me 2 hours to get an E1 so everything sucks" it actually makes it harder to change anything. Bad arguments make it difficult to make good arguments. So I'm asking people to be a little more careful in what they say, and what arguments they make. If you want to argue that changes are need, I'm right there with you! If you want to argue that there's a bug in the drop tables, I'll listen with an open mind and support you when you score a point. I just want people to actually score points, and not just complain about "one time I met someone who told me that it took them a long time to get what they wanted."

 

42 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

That's 0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2 = 0.0016. 0.16% of that happening.

Oh, and one last note. I think you've made a mistake here. You see, you can't count the chances of getting those parts like that by counting the first drop as a 20% chance. I mean, yes, it was. But you weren't actually looking for that part before it dropped. The drop chance for the initial parts counts when asking how likely you are to get those, but that's not really what you're talking about. You're talking about the chance to get the same part twice in a row, which means your first part hardly matters. What matters is whether or not you get that same part again. If you start out having already gotten each of those two parts, and you ask "what are the chances of getting those two again" the answer is much less grim. Each one has a 20% chance, so it's just 0.2*0.2 or a 4% chance. It's still extremely unlikely, but it's not so unlikely that it'll take you 1000 hours of grinding to see it happen.

There's a similar thing that happens that might help make that idea more clear. Suppose you want the stuff from the fire and ice pack. That's 4 weapons and 2 frames. That's... 22 parts? I think? Let's pretend it's 22. So you start grinding and you get a lot of parts, but there's that one rare part you didn't get yet. Maybe it's the Ember bp. So what do you say? You say "I've been grinding for x hours and still didn't get the part I need. What are the chances of not getting this part in that amount of time? Pretty low, that's what!"

Only, you've forgotten something. You've forgotten that you already got some other rare parts, and a bunch of uncommon and common parts. You were probably going to be missing at least one part, or at least there was one part that was the last one you got. But it's natural to sort of retconn your grind into being about that one part, which makes it look like you are much more unlucky than you really are. You see, if you HAD gotten that bp, then there'd be some other part that you didn't get yet, and then you'd be asking the same question but about that other part instead.

You're doing pretty much that when you call it a .16% chance of getting those 4 parts. If you had gotten some other parts instead, but then repeated them, you'd be saying the same exact thing with the same probabilities. In reality you have to take into account the number of ways there are to get repeated rewards.

Here, let's do an example. Suppose I roll a 10-sided die two times. I get 1 both times. That's a .1*.1 = .01 or 1% chance. Wow! That's really low! Could there be something wrong? But now let's roll again, and suppose we get a 2 and a 5. Is that more likely? No! It's the same exact chance! The chance of a 2 is .1, and the chance of a 5 is .1, so it's still a 1% chance. But how likely are we to repeat a roll? Well, any particular roll (edit: I meant pair of rolls) is automatically a 1% chance, but there are 10 ways to get a repeat roll (you can get 1's, 2's. 3's, etc.). So multiply by ten and we get a chance of 10%. All of a sudden our problem has evaporated, that 1% chance was actually 10%, because there is more than one way to get repeats.

In other words, we have to be careful not to go overboard thinking about absurdly low probabilities, without considering that there are many different ways to get a seemingly bizarre result. Sometimes those bizarre results are not so bizarre after all.

Sorry for the wall of text. I'm going to go play now.  :)

Edited December 18, 2016 by Azrael

[Loswaith]

On 12/17/2016 at 0:11 AM, Skaleek said:

.. This is still a bit better than farming rotation C survivals at 5%. No, really, mathematically it is better. ...

Actually the odds aren't actually better mathematically.  In the old chances you had 5.56% chance for a rare part.  However to get a radiant relic you need on average 6 missions to get and use a radiant Relic (presuming an average of ~20 traces per run, thus 5 trace gathering runs).  So on 6 runs of the previous system you had a 29.05% chance to have gotten at-least one of the rare in those 6 runs regardless of group size.

Sure if you have 4 identical relics and do all 5 runs for traces together (everyone getting the average), that gives you 34.39% for the 6 runs.  However if you have just 3 identical relics that is only 27.1% chance (thus only 4 identical relics is actually any better odds, while the other 3 fewer identical relic possibilities are at worse odds).
If takes the group overall 7 runs; the old system was 32.997% to have gotten the part while 8 runs gave you 36.723%, thus any more than 6 runs to get the 100 traces and the entire system has worse odds (this is all presuming you have the relic at hand).

 

2 hours ago, Azrael said:

... I know, right? People seem to think that you used to be able to get everything in a PA in just a few hours. ...

In fairness people say the same thing with the new system too.  In both cases it is rather unlikely but possible if they get quite lucky.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Loswaith

[BBOTAA]

Thanks for this piece of **** that half the times I want to play it doesn't even the tier or relics i want to play.

 

[MobyTheDuck]

It would be enough if each node dropped one set of relics, instead of every relic being in every node, forcing you to do either excavation or interception to farm for them.

Even worse that Axe E1 only doesnt drops from Interceptions, so you either spend 20 minutes on survivals, 20 waves on defense or 4 excavators for a 7% of getting one.

8 relics on rotation? Put 4 diferent relics on each node, so one relic can drop on 2 different nodes.

Change the drop chance from relics, why some defense nodes have a 100% chance to drop relics every 5 waves, yet survival has a 50% chance of getting a relic each 15/20 minutes?

Some nodes drop nothing on rotation A and B, yet others can drop relics on every rotation.

Why Dark Sectors and Derelict still drop stuff like common mods, 15 endo and 1k credits? Why doing Akkad rewards me with Vitality and 80 endo for 20 waves while Kalazaar gives me 4 relics?

Why survivals take so long to give rewards? Why I would spend 20 minutes for a CHANCE to get a relic if I can spend 5 minutes for 3 relics on defense? If anything, survivals should give relic packs for the time it takes.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, MobyTheDuck said:

Change the drop chance from relics, why some defense nodes have a 100% chance to drop relics every 5 waves, yet survival has a 50% chance of getting a relic each 15/20 minutes?

Yeah, I think DE is addicted to those bad drops and is scared to remove them. I really wish we could, though. I love survival, if they made survival better for relic drops there'd be more public squads available. Imagine if there were always a public squad available on selkie? That would be pretty awesome, imo.

I feel like the bad rewards should get less likely as you go farther, until after a while it's only relics (and maybe traces?). Also, I keep saying this, but we really need to reduce the number of relics in the game.

[(XBOX)JACK BURT0N LSG]

In theory it works better, though I have yet to see this in action. I find un-refined relics more rewarding than refined ones, the refinement process should reduce the grind but I think its just smoke and mirrors. Might be worse with certain rewards tied to certain relics (some of which are rare drops), specifically with Axi related stuff.

Its kind of on the knifes edge. It not necessarily worse... yet.

[-VM-Blaspheme]

I used to hate the new relic system, but since the endless missions, I kind of fell a positive way about it.

In the old system, I spend hours in Defense missions for a chance on RoTC. Even thou the item I need had a change not to drop, I would come out, with some forma bps and some other primes ( soon to be converted into ducats ).

Speaking of the infamous Axi E1 relic, I did rad mission farm 5 times, and I got what I was looking for, took me no more than 30 mins.

To get the relic, I jumped into Hiercon, farm alot, to get 5 relics, but, I did a bunch of other stuff meanwhile, lvled alot of melee and secondary weapons, got relics ( soon to be ducats converted ) and a bunch load of credits too, Yes It take alot more time to get the relic I wanted, since is rng based, but the output I get from that time spent, is much better then the old system.

There is flaws in the system, witch I think, they will address in the future.

1. Allow players in Survival missions to extract, like they do in Defense missions or Interception.

2. When you rad relics, it should lower even more the chance of the getting those primary 3 items.

 

Overall I think that the new relic system is much better than what it used to be.

 

[Elyann]

On 9/12/2016 at 5:50 PM, TeaBegging said:

Just as the title says, this system is far worse then old void keys.

I have to farm the star chart, with my highly formad bazooka frames, and go trough tedious waves of enemies just with the slight chance of getting the relic I want. Out of the 20 Relics that are in the same table. 
Not only that you might as well end up with useless drops such as 15 endo or an random mod. 
How is this system any better then the void system? Atleast I could get my keys on demand and do the mission type on demand.

Now I have to do a low level farming chore, in the hopes of getting something I actually search for. And once I get the relic I need go trough another set of RNG, and to actually get some use out if it I need to sacrifice other relics to go trough another set of RNG traces. 
Way to decrease the grind! NOT. 

I think I finally understand Vaas now from Farcry

 

Void 2.0 did already cause a huge uproar when it came out for many reasons....

- more grind  ( cause grind for relics & grind for parts....while you didn't really feel grinding for keys as something hard to do )
- one relic one reward ( no more keysharing / hosting / joining / endless mission that will give you as many rewards as you can grab with only ONE key )
- platinum prices drop for almost every prime part ( making it harder for new and old players to buy slots & such )
- it's totally pointless to potato & forma all your frames and weapons multiple times if the mission now lasts about 2 minutes....and there's no real end game left but LoR , Jordas and sorties.

And I could add more...but I think it's enough.
Lots of players kept being white knights and lots will keep being...so, honestly...
 

[Elyann]

On 9/12/2016 at 6:21 PM, Praxxor said:

My personal experience and my friends' stories completely differ from that. Me and my friend spent 4 hours farming Saryn Prime Chassis in T3Survival, he spent ~12 more after that (I just bought it) before he finally got it. I farmed the entire Nekros Prime access in two-three hours. Without using the Syndicate method.

My personal experience is the opposite though.
It used to take me a free afternoon / evening....maybe the morning after if it was the weekend...to get the new prime frame and relative weapons with the old system.
Now it takes me 1-2 days oh hard grind to get the relics....hours and hours of grind to refine them....pray that either yours or your team's relics are going to drop the part you need and....oh...4 formas...what a surprise....grind  relics for a couple more days.
It's just tedious...and even when it takes less time...it's not fun.
The grind for relics isn't fun, the 2 minutes reactant gathering mission isn't fun...and since it's hard to get the same relics and to be looking for the same parts as 3 of your friends you'll usually be grouping up with randoms.
What's even the point in being in a clan aside from researches at this point ?
It once used to be : "Hey, I have a T3 ext key, anyone wanna join ?"
It now feels like :" Hey, I'm looking for valk p chassis , I have an axi v5 radiant relic, are there 3 more people who have it and feel like joining ?"
 

[Zanchak]

3 minutes ago, Elyann said:

My personal experience is the opposite though.
It used to take me a free afternoon / evening....maybe the morning after if it was the weekend...to get the new prime frame and relative weapons with the old system.
Now it takes me 1-2 days oh hard grind to get the relics....hours and hours of grind to refine them....pray that either yours or your team's relics are going to drop the part you need and....oh...4 formas...what a surprise....grind  relics for a couple more days.
It's just tedious...and even when it takes less time...it's not fun.
The grind for relics isn't fun, the 2 minutes reactant gathering mission isn't fun...and since it's hard to get the same relics and to be looking for the same parts as 3 of your friends you'll usually be grouping up with randoms.
What's even the point in being in a clan aside from researches at this point ?
It once used to be : "Hey, I have a T3 ext key, anyone wanna join ?"
It now feels like :" Hey, I'm looking for valk p chassis , I have an axi v5 radiant relic, are there 3 more people who have it and feel like joining ?"
 

This.

[Azrael]

15 minutes ago, Elyann said:

- more grind

 

15 minutes ago, Elyann said:

- platinum prices drop for almost every prime part

These points contradict each other.

[Praxxor]

9 minutes ago, Azrael said:

 

These points contradict each other.

Shhhh, we don't need logic here

[Zaniel_Aus]

On 10/12/2016 at 4:00 AM, WhyNotBro said:

I guess...it just feels bad. Because now you need to farm 2 things (relics and then primes) instead of just 1 (primes). In apm meaning it became worse, indeed. About drop itself...random is random :D I spent over 30 radiant relics on Vauban prime chassis (im serious), however i finished my whole Valkyr like in 1 day.

Plus you need to farm traces as well to make the radiants. Also, you can't prefarm, when new stuff comes out all your existing keys are worth garbage, vets don't care about getting prime fodder they already own, they just want the new stuff.

For a newer player this system is average to OK, for anyone with any sort of armoury the system is BS.

[MystMan]

6 minutes ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

 Also, you can't prefarm, when new stuff comes out all your existing keys are worth garbage, vets don't care about getting prime fodder they already own, they just want the new stuff.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

Vets actually have a hefty bargaining chip with those vaulted relics. If you don't care about the old prime stuff that is vaulted, trade them to new players who don't have them.

I'm currently sitting on multiple sets of Nyx and Loki primes thanks to my "garbage" relics. Do you know how easy it is to trade that stuff for the items you want?  Currently own 23 Nyx Prime blueprints. Yikes!

For the fourth time: Trading is a thing.
Man, I had to rely on that a lot in the old Void system!  

And people got to stop dismissing pub relic runs as if the other players will always have terrible drops. The odds are not good. Yadda yadda.  Stop obsessing with numbers. RNG doesn't give a crud about your numbers. Take a leap of faith once in a while.

Yesterday I joined a pub group and two players were packing Neo V4 radiant. Guess what?  Both got common drops. It wasn't a complete loss though, they walked away with something nice: my Soma Prime blueprint from my vaulted Neo S1 relic.
Before that, somebody dropped a rare Vauban Prime System while using an intact Neo N2. Nobody was looking for that, but hey, gifted horse's mouth right?

Don't be a statistical min/max maniac and take these "garbage" relics in quick pub runs, you might be surprised what other people drop.

[Urlan]

As a 'Vet' of sorts I can tell you that just because I have the vaulted Relics, it doesn't really help me get the vaulted rewards inside. Most of the relics I run give me a forma no matter the upgrade level funny enough. Even in teams with my allies, Us going full Radiant and then mysteriously getting forma for each of us, as our only choices, is disturbingly common in my experience. Before I also could do my missions and build a stockpile of void keys and then run them with friends, no muss no fuss. I can't do that with Relics. They need the same relics, same traces for upgrading the relics, and need to use them with me together or their is no point to run with them for practical purposes, as without doing that, the rewards are less common than the old void except for the rarest of the old.

Practical experience speaks for more than opinions, mine is that relics are a downgrade from void keys. At least I could gather void keys with less issue from the same missions relics now come from; didn't need traces, and got more reward possibilities from just one key than a relic ever can by design.

[MystMan]

... aaaand my experiences are exactly the opposite of yours.

That's how RNG works.

At least we have multiple options now to see which approach suits us best.
Back in Void, we had no options, there was only "the one way".

Also, stop relying all the time with friends with same keys/same radiant/ etc like it's the only way.  The more you plan, the more you will be disappointed and frustrated when it doesn't give you the results you wanted.
Going in randomly without planning doesn't disappoint since you have no idea what will happen. No need to waste time planning and preparing looking for specific groups. Pub runs are readily available all the time. Quick, dirty and easy.

Edited December 18, 2016 by MystMan