HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

After pondering a few days, some things to consider:

• Does it contribute to clan affinity?
• Skin can be purchased with plat from market or exclusive to research?

Since I am not really a fan of comestics, only like a few comestics, rest of the comestics are not really my style.
Players who enjoy/purchased lot of comestics/skins would probably contribute more and better ideas than me.

I think it shouldn't contribute, since it's just something extra for those who want to put the effort. Right now there aren't any, but Clan rank will play some role in future content. So if these "upgrades" gives clan affinity, it would mean locking out those clan who don't want / can't put those effort. It will be the Hema debacle all over again.

Whether or not the new skins will be research exclusive or purchasable from the market, there will be some who think it's unfair. I heard some (not many, to be honest) that feel it's unfair for the Conclave Armor set (The Riv one) to be available from the market. But like I said before, these upgrades will only be something extra, so it won't be a prerequisite to anything. Personally, I say it should be research exclusive, just to please those who want some bragging tools.

[Gamma745]

You know, after looking at the research cost again, something doesn't seemed right to me. We have been focusing on the Mutagen Sample (I know, it's the most blatant one). The other resource cost have also increased, by 10x (compared to Mutagen 100x). Some people (and I do believe the people still here as well) have noticed. But that's not what I think is weird.

What I found odd is the credit cost. It's only 5000 credits for Ghost Clans, the average amount of other researches. If DE wanted to make the players do some hunting for newly released weapons (or, at least for Hema), then why is the Credit cost the same average value? We already established that Credits are quite easy to farm (Dark Sectors, Secura Lecta, Nekros, PilfHyrdoid) that amassing tens of thousands is actually quite fast.

I could make a joke how the Mutagen Sample Cost and the Credit Cost have the exact same value should clue in DE that the value is kinda off, but let's not get to insulting DE.

 

This makes me think that DE didn't miscalculate the numbers. They intended this cost, and by extension, the reaction of the players. They were anticipating this from the start. The lack of justification, the stance to not do anything. It makes people wonder. Why would they make it like that? A simple cash grab? If that's were the case, the cost would rise with the same multiplier, not just the Mutagen Sample. Especially the Credit cost. Or could it be that DE trying to make a statement? Whatever it is...

 

Ok, just saw that Ditto123 already said it as well, which still leaves a big question.

 

Sorry if this sounds like some rambling from a conspiracy theorist. I guess I just needed something to vent, since this research will just keep on taunting me whenever I open up my Clan dojo. But I do think something is odd with the Credit cost, just I don't have any explanation for it. Feel free to laugh at this if you find it too ridiculous.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Gamma745

[Ditto132]

46 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

You know, after looking at the research cost again, something doesn't seemed right to me. We have been focusing on the Mutagen Sample (I know, it's the most blatant one). The other resource cost have also increased, by 10x (compared to Mutagen 100x). Some people (and I do believe the people still here as well) have noticed. But that's not what I think is weird.

What I found odd is the credit cost. It's only 5000 credits for Ghost Clans, the average amount of other researches. If DE wanted to make the players do some hunting for newly released weapons (or, at least for Hema), then why is the Credit cost the same average value? We already established that Credits are quite easy to farm (Dark Sectors, Secura Lecta, Nekros, PilfHyrdoid) that amassing tens of thousands is actually quite fast.

On 24/02/2017 at 0:33 AM, Ditto132 said:

Research requirements
Synapse: 65 Mutagen Samples, 800 Circuits, 3,000 Nano Spores, 1,200 Polymer Bundle, 5,000 Credits
Hema: 5,000 Mutagen Samples, 10,000 Plastids, 45,000 Nano Spores, 50 Neurodes, 5,000 Credits
Shaku: 5,000 Plastids, 10 Neurodes, 11,000 Polymer Bundle, 17,500 Ferrite, 5,000 Credits

Hema research got an increase of

• ~76.9x Mutagen Samples (based on Synapse)
• 15x Nano Spores (based on Synapse)
• 5x Neurodes (based on Shaku)
• No change in Credits cost.

See how absurd the increased Mutagen Samples cost is relative to other research?

If the reason for increase cost is to promote Clan participation, then the increase should be ~10x for a Ghost Clan, making Neurodes and Nano Spores seems reasonable.
But why the Mutagen Samples cost is so high and no increase in Credits cost?
And if the reason is due to player's stockpile, then shouldn't Nano Spores be the higher increased cost instead? And why no change in Credits?

Not to mention the way this issue is being handled very poorly, and now outright ignoring that it existed.
Please fix this issue...

Ok, regardless of it being a resource sink or cash grab, the absurd cost should be reduced, especially after some time.
So that it would be more consistent with other researches and removing the resource sink after it done its job of removing and dishonoring player stockpiles.
Heck, even games on Steam got cheaper after some time while more games/contents are introduced.

I personally feel that the benefit of directly purchasing research weapon like Hema with plat is sufficient, no need for such absurd resource cost.

• You get one weapon slot(6 plat)
• You get one catalyst(20 plat) and skipped the 24hours and resource requirement for crafting it
• You don't need to farm for resources(researching and crafting)
• You don't need to do invasion mission for get the resource(e.g. Mutagen Mass)
• You avoid crafting and spending Forma(20 plat)(24hours crafting time)
• You skipped 3 days of research time(huge benefit since research cannot be rushed with plat, directly bypass it)
• You don't need to research those pre-requisite researches if you have not done so.
• You skipped 12-24hours of crafting the weapon or rushing(25-50 plat) after research is done

To be honest, people that defended Hema cost are probably too igorant to see the implications and/or are in delusion.
See the amount of effort they put into their post.
Not much supporting data, facts, analysis and thoughts put into it.
Some are short and quick responses such as "just lazy", "want it on Day One", "just farm with ... setup".

Come to think of it, most of my posts, each took me about 1-2hours to write, format, check for some errors/typos(still miss out some, not perfect), find links, data/facts and try my best to verify them.
I also take some time/days to ponder about it before replying, to get rid of bias and see from different perspectives.

[Gamma745]

@Ditto132 yeah, I saw that you said it before pages ago. Sorry about that. That being said though, why do you think the Credit cost didn't change?

5 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Ok, regardless of it being a resource sink or cash grab, the absurd cost should be reduced, especially after some time.
So that it would be more consistent with other researches and removing the resource sink after it done its job of removing and dishonoring player stockpiles.
Heck, even games on Steam got cheaper after some time while more games/contents are introduced.

I personally feel that the benefit of directly purchasing research weapon like Hema with plat is sufficient, no need for such absurd resource cost.

• You get one weapon slot(6 plat)
• You get one catalyst(20 plat) and skipped the 24hours and resource requirement for crafting it
• You don't need to farm for resources(researching and crafting)
• You don't need to do invasion mission for get the resource(e.g. Mutagen Mass)
• You avoid crafting and spending Forma(20 plat)(24hours crafting time)
• You skipped 3 days of research time(huge benefit since research cannot be rushed with plat, directly bypass it)
• You don't need to research those pre-requisite researches if you have not done so.
• You skipped 12-24hours of crafting the weapon or rushing(25-50 plat) after research is done

To be honest, people that defended Hema cost are probably too igorant to see the implications and/or are in delusion.
See the amount of effort they put into their post.
Not much supporting data, facts, analysis and thoughts put into it.
Some are short and quick responses such as "just lazy", "want it on Day One", "just farm with ... setup".

Come to think of it, most of my posts, each took me about 1-2hours to write, format, check for some errors/typos(still miss out some, not perfect), find links, data/facts and try my best to verify them.
I also take some time/days to ponder about it before replying, to get rid of bias and see from different perspectives.

Agreed. We already got a pretty healthy option for a long time. But at this point, why do I feel like DE left it just as a mark. As painful reminder on where they shouldn't have gone.

 

As for people ignoring, I think they're just too wrapped up that this "can" be farmed in a few days, ignoring the non-optimal condition since to them, that is not "the way to play". Yeah, screw people having fun, huh?

 

P.S. I commend you to take the time to double-check and validate your posts. I respect a man who can (or at least try) to watch his word.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Gamma745

[Cosmic_Elf]

I eventually gave up , and bought it with plat, though I would still contribute those mutagen masses to the dojo if I have collected some , for those who are still farming ... Or they did the same as me and I ended up the only one farming it until I gave in.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Cosmic_Elf

[Cosmic_Elf]

I think DE might have made the farm hard, because it sucks blood for ammo

Edited April 15, 2017 by Cosmic_Elf

[ChuckMaverick]

2 hours ago, Cosmic_Elf said:

I think DE might have made the farm hard, because it sucks blood for ammo

It uses your blood while reloading, but it still needs rifle ammo as well.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

It uses your blood while reloading, but it still needs rifle ammo as well.

 

Tbh it should just use hp as ammo since head shots generate ammo for it anyway.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

Still going strong... I like this. :thumbsup:

[Ditto132]

21 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

yeah, I saw that you said it before pages ago. Sorry about that.

Its ok. I linked it for reference since most people don't read all posts to save time, which can also be the reason why they don't give enough thought into it and see the issue in the future.

21 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

That being said though, why do you think the Credit cost didn't change?

There are no real needs for credit sink in the game, because unlike resources, credit is "universal currency" second to plat.
Plat can bypass buy almost anything in the game. Credit got lot of uses.

Currently, lot of actions require credits to perform.

• Researching
• Crafting
• Purchasing credit only prebuilt weapons(e.g. MK1-Braton)
• Purchasing blueprints
• Incubator rush
• Transmutation
• Ranking mods
• Trading
• The Index

You can see how much gross credits a player have, I remember I have ~60M with ~1500hours in-mission, still left with ~10M and no use for it yet.
Resources are the bottleneck, and you need to farm resources from specific planets unless credit which can be obtained anywhere.

Usually players that have issues with not enough credits are the ones who do a lot of trading, ranking up mods to sell, and so on.
Under normal/casual play, credit is obtained passively with other resources and no real need to specifically do credit farming.
Most of the actions I listed only need to be performed once, except for things such as trading and The Index.

If DE really want to put credit sinks, the event color palettes wouldn't be 1 credit and wouldn't remove the credit cost for converting Ayatan to Endo.

Credit sinks are for hardcore players, that for some reasons got lot of credits to spare, it shouldn't affect normal/casual players.
Such credit sinks and credit farming are, and should remain optional, such as Pedestal Prime, Secura Lecta, Chroma, and so on.

22 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Agreed. We already got a pretty healthy option for a long time. But at this point, why do I feel like DE left it just as a mark. As painful reminder on where they shouldn't have gone.

Maybe to prove how ridiculous the hardcore players have being farming, and the gap between hardcore and normal/casual players.
But somehow, some hardcore players doesn't see it and proceed to grinding it out. Thus trying to make it the norm and expect others to do the same.

22 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

As for people ignoring, I think they're just too wrapped up that this "can" be farmed in a few days, ignoring the non-optimal condition since to them, that is not "the way to play". Yeah, screw people having fun, huh?

Probably they forgot that they are hardcore players and that their playstyle is not the norm and it should not be forced on to normal/casual players.
Normal/casual players don't min-max that much.

To be honest, min-maxing usually lead to stress, boredom, and ruin the fun.
Just see Octavia min-maxing songs and Limbo clapping bomb.

I am a Limbo player and like the new Limbo rework, the Stasis is interesting and fun, especially with projectiles.
But I hate that people just jump on to the bandwagon and trying to ruin Limbo with their clapping bomb playstyle... and then people complaining about OP, cheezy, boring, no challenge and no new contents.

People complaining that Stasis is disruptive, so does forcing optimal/meta setup on to normal/casual players.

Just imagine the price of a cup of coffee costed 10x than normal due to having a few customers being a millionaire and could afford the unreasonable price, and said "its ok, I can pay that. Oh and keep the changes."

How many people like it when their parent already min-max that in your life, you should become a lawyer/doctor so that you can earn lot of money.
Or being forced to go along and do something with your friends, because peer pressure.

Expecting other players to play the hardcore way they played is just ridiculous.

[Gamma745]

17 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Tbh it should just use hp as ammo since head shots generate ammo for it anyway.

Some people have said that, at least in the wiki. Maybe then the cost could be slightly worth it.

 

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

Probably they forgot that they are hardcore players and that their playstyle is not the norm and it should not be forced on to normal/casual players.
Normal/casual players don't min-max that much.

To be honest, min-maxing usually lead to stress, boredom, and ruin the fun.
Just see Octavia min-maxing songs and Limbo clapping bomb.

I am a Limbo player and like the new Limbo rework, the Stasis is interesting and fun, especially with projectiles.
But I hate that people just jump on to the bandwagon and trying to ruin Limbo with their clapping bomb playstyle... and then people complaining about OP, cheezy, boring, no challenge and no new contents.

People complaining that Stasis is disruptive, so does forcing optimal/meta setup on to normal/casual players.

Just imagine the price of a cup of coffee costed 10x than normal due to having a few customers being a millionaire and could afford the unreasonable price, and said "its ok, I can pay that. Oh and keep the changes."

How many people like it when their parent already min-max that in your life, you should become a lawyer/doctor so that you can earn lot of money.
Or being forced to go along and do something with your friends, because peer pressure.

Expecting other players to play the hardcore way they played is just ridiculous.

Just a little joke, I do wonder how those min-maxer will react if my "crazy idea" actually gone through. If they actually scream of unfair cost, I'm so going to laugh.

Agreed though, min-maxer are those above the standard, so everything shouldn't be centered around them.

 

Even though saying that, I actually got a fear that this will happen again. First is on the Chem lab (Knux), now on the Bio lab (Hema). Maybe we should fear the day a crazy research appear in the Tenno and Energy lab (Just to make some kind of "research ceiling"). But let's have faith in DE that they learned their lesson.

[Ikusias]

What is insulting in all this farce is how DE staff didn't have the guts to answer directly here in the forums and how much manure they feed to the community in the two instances they commented on hema prices.

i'm not against research that needs somethng more than opening your inventory and simply pay all the resourches for the entire clan, on the other side as a pratically solo clan, i don't apreciate having to cough 5k of a resource because the cost was calculated on 500 units/clanner.

They can see how active clan members are and who contributed to what (seeing that dojio building costs can be refounded to who donated), should have improved on that.

Also the weapon itself is, again, manure, both in looks and mechanics.

They made a new resource for the javlock and the weapon itself was interesting, could have done the same for the hema (also hope jawlock capacitors will be of use in something else).

If hema and the last event are indicative of what DE has in store for the community and clans in general, well I wish the Infestation on them.

A very virluent one with a surprise visit from the 1st Juggernaut, lephantis and Jordas Golem

Edited April 22, 2017 by Ikusias

[Ditto132]

19 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Just a little joke, I do wonder how those min-maxer will react if my "crazy idea" actually gone through. If they actually scream of unfair cost, I'm so going to laugh.

Agreed though, min-maxer are those above the standard, so everything shouldn't be centered around them.

Even though saying that, I actually got a fear that this will happen again. First is on the Chem lab (Knux), now on the Bio lab (Hema). Maybe we should fear the day a crazy research appear in the Tenno and Energy lab (Just to make some kind of "research ceiling"). But let's have faith in DE that they learned their lesson.

Some would still be too blinded and go ahead and farm.
Some would see that it is more "balanced" and not seeing the issue.
Some would actually see the issue and post on forum.
Some would actually just quit the game, seeing no hope for the game.

I am more curious about how those players who done the grind and gotten Hema or brought it with plat, feel about the grind and the weapon.
Seeing that I don't see much Hema users in public games, either very little players got Hema due to the absurd research cost or Hema is mediocre for those who acquired it.

I am not as hopeful now after seeing some Zenith posts...

Anyway, Hema reviews and builds:

 

 

[ChuckMaverick]

A few more...

 

[malekas]

As a solo Ghost Clan that just completed the research, I feel I can now tell DE:

 

Fix this garbage. That cost is beyond ridiculous.

 

You wouldn't hurt my feelings, or lessen my sense of accomplishment in any way, but it may help to clean some of the egg off your face.

[DoomFruit]

Another patch, and still the issue continues to be ignored.

[JackFletcher]

C'mon guys lets finish the 100 pages!

I as Shadow-Clan-Leader can say: Hema cost is still S#&$.

[Gamma745]

4 hours ago, JackFletcher said:

C'mon guys lets finish the 100 pages!

I as Shadow-Clan-Leader can say: Hema cost is still S#&$.

Love to, but what else is there to talk about?

[BornWithTeeth]

I personally farmed up four and a half thousand Mutagen Samples for my Ghost Clan. (My clanners coughed up just over five hundred of them.)

 

I heard there was 'honour' going around for people who did it, no? Steve? We getting honoured?

 

 

Ok, well, regardless, speaking as someone who went out and did it, it's still nonsense. So, no. It's not just salt because I don't have the stones or the perseverance. I went and got the damned thing, and the research cost is still ridiculous.

Edited April 21, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

while i haven't gotten around to do the research yet (or gathering the 5050 mut samples), i hate to think what weapon DE will make HEMA a requirement for either the research or to build the weapon

[lylathewicked]

A friend and I have went to great lengths trying to get this into our ghost clan menu. We are both MR 22 and we spend hours playing this game. In the past 8 months I've played away most of that time. We've went ahead and tried drop chance boosters and spent hours upon hours just farming in the derelict missions. I think if it gets changed, they should change the cost depending on clan level. For example, ours is only a Ghost clan, with 5 members, only 2 of which are always active. So to get the Hema it's going to take a long long time, we still have like 2k to go, and when mutagens barely drop at all, even with Nekros runs and Hydroid runs...I even went ahead and tried slashing them to death with my Secura crit build so we can get double drops using Nekros, still takes ages.

Edited April 21, 2017 by lylathewicked
Hema better be the best weapon in the whole game for the cost. It better do like 1million crits. lol

[Ditto132]

2 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Love to, but what else is there to talk about?

Solutions, preventions, changes to clan?
I don't feel like putting so much effort and contributing so much since I doubt DE even bother considering them. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)shadowwraith_666 said:

while i haven't gotten around to do the research yet (or gathering the 5050 mut samples), i hate to think what weapon DE will make HEMA a requirement for either the research or to build the weapon

I recommend that you do invasions(skip those that only give 1, not worth doing) to get Mutagen Masses instead of crafting them.
It wouldn't be a problem if Hema research doesn't have this current cost.
DE would probably get lot of hates and players stop supporting them, maybe even stop playing and leaving the game filled with only "losers" and newly attracted players.

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I personally farmed up four and a half thousand Mutagen Samples for my Ghost Clan. (My clanners coughed up just over five hundred of them.)

I heard there was 'honour' going around for people who did it, no? Steve? We getting honoured?

Ok, well, regardless, speaking as someone who went out and did it, it's still nonsense. So, no. It's not just salt because I don't have the stones or the perseverance. I went and got the damned thing, and the research cost is still ridiculous.

At this point, I am no longer hyped or looking forward new contents, can't take DE words for it.
For players who did it, can't blame them for be salty. It is as good as scam.
Do people said: "Oh, you are being salty" when you complained that you got scammed, unable to play due to network issues or not being "honoured".

I probably won't be actively playing anymore, especially after staying away from the game for awhile and being more clear-minded.

I don't know how many people realized that DE have been mocking at us, "registered losers". Maybe it is funny and laughed it out at that time.
But as time goes, and with so much issues, I feel that we, the players are not being treated respectfully.
Maybe I should have posted this previously... now I don't care anymore.
Just listen to this song:

 

P.S. Can't be bothered to proof-read and check.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, lylathewicked said:

A friend and I have went to great lengths trying to get this into our ghost clan menu. We are both MR 22 and we spend hours playing this game. In the past 8 months I've played away most of that time. We've went ahead and tried drop chance boosters and spent hours upon hours just farming in the derelict missions. I think if it gets changed, they should change the cost depending on clan level. For example, ours is only a Ghost clan, with 5 members, only 2 of which are always active. So to get the Hema it's going to take a long long time, we still have like 2k to go, and when mutagens barely drop at all, even with Nekros runs and Hydroid runs...I even went ahead and tried slashing them to death with my Secura crit build so we can get double drops using Nekros, still takes ages.

before spending more time and effort farming for it, check out this post and the one below it:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/744013-hema-final-word-no-mutagen-drop-or-cost-change/?page=95#comment-8601887

 

[flapvsjack]

Hi everyone! I'm flapvsjack

 

I am going to talk about is Hema!

 

Hema is a real beast to research & for good reason. Depending on the clan tier, resources will multiply on all resources. This is really difficult for many high tier clans, such as Mountain or Moon tier, to achieve.

 

Now, the real issue is Mutagen Sample farming. The reason being is that Samples are more difficult to acquire. I believe, I have a solution to resolve mutagen sample farming. Please, watch the video for more details.

Edited April 21, 2017 by flapvsjack

[KIREEK]

What are your 100 officers doing in your clan, aren't they like supposed to recruit 10 members each?

Please don't tell me that this is one of those moon clans who acts like previous tiers clans and recruit just about any fish they find.

Clans that display little effort in managing what they have or display little effort in griding, face the dilema as a result, no you do not represent 1000 members.

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by KIREEK