HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[WindSquirrel]

I'm in a Clan or primarily veteran players. And because of that, most players are currently inactive. Only returning every now and then for the "new" stuff and then slinking off back to other games. As of right now we have only gathered about 15k of the 50k we need for the Hema. I find this situation, as well as the mentality behind it, unacceptable.

First off, the weapon in question is NOT worth the time investment needed to acquire it. I've talked to people who have it, read about it on the wiki and the forums a bit, its just not worth the time. And by that I don't just mean the time it takes the clan to farm for the materials. The grind needed to get 500 samples individually is insane. Saying that they based the price on the average number of samples in tenno inventories punishes new players who wish to start new clans with new people, as well as punishing older clans that are made up of partially active people, who are already sick and tiered of the ENDLESS grinds we keep finding in this game. This is a LOT of work for very little pay out.

The next problem (as I see it) is the pressure it puts on clans. I feel that ones choice of clan should be based on social choices rather than mechanic choices. Through my alliance I know that their are some clans that have already given up on getting the Hema. Meaning that if you happen to be in such a clan your only choices are to A) join a clan that does have it, B) Farm for the mats your self (ouch),or C) Buy the weapon with plat. Telling us to abandon inactive players just to make 1 weapon cheaper is both cruel and heartless. Clans are more often then not made up of friends, not people who are their to farm mats so that you can get all the clan-tech bits.

The last point I want to go over, at least for now, is the fun factor. This is a game, its SUPPOSED to be fun. You want us to play it then make it FUN. Asking us to WASTE large amounts of our time on something that will only get used for about an hour in our arsenals is NOT a good idea.

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

2 hours ago, Golmihr said:

That's different. I simply have no interest in spending the amount of time required farming boring stuff in warframe. Point being that it wouldn't matter how OP the weapon was.

I'm currently near 200k infested kills in my combat stats, the highest of the 3 factions. I got 162 Mutagen Samples. To compare I got  13440 Fieldron samples and 5793 Detonite Samples. (And I have bought most Dojo research where those two are required.) If I could find a max sized Ghost Clan (Which I have no intentions of doing) I could reduce the cost to 500. Judging by the amount of time I would still need to waste on farming, even in that theoretically scenario I still wouldn't want to farm that. This is a game I play to have fun after all and if enough of my time spend on it isn't fun I simply stop playing it.

For the first time in four years of play I have stopped playing other than daily log ins. Congrats DE you really skrewed up this time. 

[_sheepy_]

4 hours ago, Vermitore said:

And that is absolutely fine. If you're the kind of person to say 'No, can't be bothered.' and move on, there's absolutely no problem with that. It only becomes excessively demanding when people expect everything to be easily affordable to everyone, with no room for exceptions.

This is not about easily affordable,It's about it being ridiculously unaffordable.

[General_Durandal]

1 hour ago, WindSquirrel said:

I'm in a Clan or primarily veteran players. And because of that, most players are currently inactive. Only returning every now and then for the "new" stuff and then slinking off back to other games. As of right now we have only gathered about 15k of the 50k we need for the Hema. I find this situation, as well as the mentality behind it, unacceptable.

First off, the weapon in question is NOT worth the time investment needed to acquire it. I've talked to people who have it, read about it on the wiki and the forums a bit, its just not worth the time. And by that I don't just mean the time it takes the clan to farm for the materials. The grind needed to get 500 samples individually is insane. Saying that they based the price on the average number of samples in tenno inventories punishes new players who wish to start new clans with new people, as well as punishing older clans that are made up of partially active people, who are already sick and tiered of the ENDLESS grinds we keep finding in this game. This is a LOT of work for very little pay out.

The next problem (as I see it) is the pressure it puts on clans. I feel that ones choice of clan should be based on social choices rather than mechanic choices. Through my alliance I know that their are some clans that have already given up on getting the Hema. Meaning that if you happen to be in such a clan your only choices are to A) join a clan that does have it, B) Farm for the mats your self (ouch),or C) Buy the weapon with plat. Telling us to abandon inactive players just to make 1 weapon cheaper is both cruel and heartless. Clans are more often then not made up of friends, not people who are their to farm mats so that you can get all the clan-tech bits.

The last point I want to go over, at least for now, is the fun factor. This is a game, its SUPPOSED to be fun. You want us to play it then make it FUN. Asking us to WASTE large amounts of our time on something that will only get used for about an hour in our arsenals is NOT a good idea.

This.

[Endorphinz]

Does no one else think that research materials need to be removed entirely from the game? Seeing how invasions are the reliable way for farming already-completed components, the "samples" just sit there taking up space... until DE comes with a heavy-handed solution like this, I mean.

[(PSN)Sange13]

Saying it's about it being "easy/affordable" is the same as saying it's about "entitlement" and demonstrates a failure to understand the issue. Warframe players can play for months and still not see 500 MS, and that's just the BASE cost. If you're in a large clan that isn't 100% full of 100% active members, the deficit falls on you, and when you're looking at multiple thousands per person, that's way beyond reasonable.

DE messed this one up by thinking "pre-grind" is somehow a bad thing for the game, and ignoring the fact that the game sees new players all the time. I've been playing off and on for a few years myself, and just recently got a few of my friends to try it (just as a small example). If they really don't want people to have it right when it comes out, they can put it behind some kind of objective/mission farm rather than a resource one (farm a certain boss, or reworked mission mode *coughSabotagecough*). If it's really about the cash grab, they could just be honest and make that the only way to get it for a short while before they release a f2p farm method of getting it--especially near the holidays.

Either way, the costs are unreasonable. People are willing to put work into earning their gear, but there is a fine line between trying to encourage players to play more and pushing them away with excessive grind. Increasing the drop rates of MS might be a good bandaid for this problem, but it creates a host of new ones. Just fix this problem the correct way instead: reduce the MS cost. Even 1,000 base would still be high, but much more tolerable.

[(PSN)Sange13]

9 minutes ago, Endorphinz said:

Does no one else think that research materials need to be removed entirely from the game? Seeing how invasions are the reliable way for farming already-completed components, the "samples" just sit there taking up space... until DE comes with a heavy-handed solution like this, I mean.

Farming anything from invasions "reliably" is a pretty big stretch. What you can farm is entirely up to RNG, and you only get one piece at a time. Beyond that, I haven't seen anything from invasions that comes out of the dojo (unless you mean Fieldron/Muta-Mass/Detonite), so I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Maybe you should reword your statement to be more specific, but it sounds like you want to wipe out clan research altogether just because minor parts have alternate means of acquisition--which is totally fine.

[Golmihr]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

Warframe players can play for months and still not see 500 MS, and that's just the BASE cost. If you're in a large clan that isn't 100% full of 100% active members, the deficit falls on you, and when you're looking at multiple thousands per person, that's way beyond reasonable.

 

The cost in MS for a ghost clan is 5000. 500 is for a Ghost clan at max member capacity, assuming they share the funding.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Golmihr

[John89brensen]

On 2/1/2017 at 4:58 AM, Ciaus said:

What damage does this do?

• All other clan research becomes comparatively cheaper now, when the pricing was quite fair for intermediate players before. 
• Community damage remains. This cost is still insane for less than full clans. It needed a 10x reduction, not a 2x easier to farm, to prevent the destruction of social clans that is still ongoing. 
• Shows DE is going to stand by this decision, with reasoning they have never followed in the past with any nerf or price change they have used. 

This, it just goes to show that DE is unable to balance their own game, instead of reducing the insane amount of resources for 1 research project, they decided to cheese all other projects.

Agreed with all your points OP. 

[(XBOX)Black Mouse]

The cost is a lot glad I have 10k ready to go. Just hope the rest of the clan have the remaining 5k. They should we are all very active.

[-N7-Leonhart]

On 1/2/2017 at 10:50 AM, LuckyCharm said:

more to the point.. why are they worried about wasting peoples time who already grinded for it.. i spent many many hours farming events all through warframes life and with the event mods and weapons being rereleased for practically no effort with no sorry or compensation why is this weapon the one they back out and say woah not touching that about. its not like its a founders thing

Weapons that are returning aren't doing so for free. You mean to say that gathering like 4 parts from Sorties is easier than just doing the event that also has other rewards, 2 years before?

[_sheepy_]

2 hours ago, Golmihr said:

The cost in MS for a ghost clan is 5000. 500 is for a Ghost clan at max member capacity, assuming they share the funding.

Why are you quoting perfect scenarios like they're common.

I was trying to build a shadow clan so that's 15k ms from 11 players 50% of which are very low MR.

How they can do something so counterproductive towards clans and the game in general is mind boggling.

The fact they won't fix it just compounds the stupidness.

80% of that 15k will be down to two players in my clan.

you got people leaving clans,clans kicking and downsizing,clans trading membership,clans in limbo,all because of this crap.

I can't even advertise for more clan members because you get a thousand PM's asking if i have this research, even if i did you can't trust them not to get the BP and run.

The very worst part of all this is they're generating hate towards the game,and they can't see the wood for the trees.

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

I want to post a shout out to all the other clans that refuse to downsize or kick players due to this issue and say to DE You may be jerks for this but I RUFUSE TO HURT OTHER PLAYERS TO SATISFY YOUR POWERHUNGRY RASH DESISTIONS. 

To all those clanloards and gernerals I salute you! 

[Golmihr]

4 hours ago, _sheepy_ said:

Why are you quoting perfect scenarios like they're common.

I was trying to build a shadow clan so that's 15k ms from 11 players 50% of which are very low MR.

How they can do something so counterproductive towards clans and the game in general is mind boggling.

The fact they won't fix it just compounds the stupidness.

80% of that 15k will be down to two players in my clan.

you got people leaving clans,clans kicking and downsizing,clans trading membership,clans in limbo,all because of this crap.

I can't even advertise for more clan members because you get a thousand PM's asking if i have this research, even if i did you can't trust them not to get the BP and run.

The very worst part of all this is they're generating hate towards the game,and they can't see the wood for the trees.

Eh... The cost isn't 500 Mutagen Samples unless you are talking about a perfect scenario and as you yourself just now pointed out that is often not the situation. At a glance I figure you had just grabbed some misleading info from this thread since 500 is admittedly a number in their calculations but not a practical scenario for most players. (Edit: BTW In the wiki they talk about clan tier multiplies http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Clan#Clan_Tier So the base cost would be 5000 in that context)

 

 

I would love for there to be a solo size clan option for those of us who don't want a clan but still would want access to a lot of the gear in the game. And even better, then let us join multiple clans so we can have clans that are all about being social without sacrificing resources! Don't get me wrong, it is a social game and I love playing with other players sometimes but there can be a lot of reasons for not wanting to take part in a clan.

Ideally clans shouldn't be about players investing all their resources into something that is ultimately somebody else's project but about friends wanting to hang out together. Unfortunately because of how DE have approached research the first often seems to be the case in Warframe. That is why you see clans that require new members to pay fees to get an invite. There the research investments comes before players when building the clan.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Golmihr

[_sheepy_]

6 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

In fact I figure you had just grabbed some misleading info from this thread

I hit the quote on your post mate.

 

12 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

The cost isn't 500 Mutagen Samples unless you are talking about a perfect scenario (I was quoting you)

hmmm,nope,Not me.

I've never said the cost is 500 mutagen samples.

Seems like we got are wires crossed but nvm,The whole thing sucks!

[Cortanis]

I know I've said this in other thread and I said it in the main response thread that got locked. I'll say it again here since people don't apparently get how easy this is to side step.

The Hema is a B grade weapon at best. By no means is it worth the stupid research cost. This is largely agreed on by the community. The thing is, we need to start playing as a COMMUNITY and stop playing/thinking as clans. For what it takes a single mountain clan or higher rank of clan to finish out the research costs, you could finish it out on multiple ghost clans. This is as simple to get around for large clans as contracting out or otherwise partnering with ghost clans to get the research done and simply swap over long enough to get the bp and then go back. No, the mountain clans and such won't have it immediately done in their dojo's to get the bp. But you will still have an out to get it and get the MR fodder done. That way you can still get your bp and you're not bashing your heads against mountains to try and get it done so that you can get it over with.

Again, I'll be opening up access to my dojo when I get it done even if I don't get help with the costs. I'll do it as a matter of spite if nothing else.

[Golmihr]

 

50 minutes ago, _sheepy_ said:

I hit the quote on your post mate.

EDIT: NM. I just noticed you picked up the conversation from (PS4)Sange13.

I thought you were him.

 

I suspected that and that is what made me respond. I never wrote that the base cost is 500 though. Just that in an ideal scenario I could get that low. Talking about base costs mostly make sense if you can get a discount. If asked I would say that the base cost is 5000 to not confuse new players.

 

50 minutes ago, _sheepy_ said:

I've never said the cost is 500 mutagen samples.

 

Well true and I never claimed you did... You wrote that the base cost is 500 ms. I noticed it because you wrote it in bold letters.

 

 

50 minutes ago, _sheepy_ said:

Seems like we got are wires crossed but nvm,The whole thing sucks!

Yeah. We seem to agree overall.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Golmihr

[LuckyCharm]

7 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Weapons that are returning aren't doing so for free. You mean to say that gathering like 4 parts from Sorties is easier than just doing the event that also has other rewards, 2 years before?

Yeah I do actually, just by doing sorties to try and get endo/catalysts/exilus/chance at legendary cores got me pretty much all the event weapon parts with sooo much time left over. Doing the events on PC was not only ALWAYS buggy and barely playable, but also were repetitive, usually with overpowered enemies or untested mechanics or unknown enemy abilities. With sorties you know what you're getting into before you even step foot into the mission so you can prepare for it

[sulusdacor]

i sincerely hope DE rethinks their statements with this. Everyone who farmed for this during the holidays should have realized there might be something wrong with the cost and this will/should probably be changed in the future. So you farmed for this amount of ressouces with this knowledge. The "we will not change it,because people already did the effort" has no real base. I assume DE got the numbers, so please look at how many player/clans actually farmed for the samples and how many do not have the research.

offering to get the samples into other locations is good, but it does nothing for the out of proportion amount compared to other clan tech. The other thing even for single player/small/"not so active clans" it will probably still take forever. Assuming you dont want to mess up the whole balance of mutagen samples needed for other recipes by rasining the droprate/location really high.

just remember: "we wanted to reduce the grind...."

thx for reading

fight on tenno ;)

[Cortanis]

4 minutes ago, sulusdacor said:

i sincerely hope DE rethinks their statements with this. Everyone who farmed for this during the holidays should have realized there might be something wrong with the cost and this will/should probably be changed in the future. So you farmed for this amount of ressouces with this knowledge. The "we will not change it,because people already did the effort" has no real base. I assume DE got the numbers, so please look at how many player/clans actually farmed for the samples and how many do not have the research.

This is especially true when one stops for a moment and realizes that they can just run a script to refund at least a sizable portion of the cost back to the players who have it done anyway. Like you said, they have the numbers. They can see what the average is based on actual player donation and work from there. Yes, people will still be salty that they didn't get the majority of what they dropped back. It is a research cost however and lowering the cost to a more sane level is the reward. I'm doing this as a ghost clan and funding the entirety of the cost myself. I honestly wouldn't mind getting even just 500 samples back over the issue.

[Ditto132]

17 hours ago, gizol333 said:

 I don't know. I didn't think about it.

it is so that it is not impossible to equip it. BUT...
requiring max rank, with potato and the required to equip it.
And at the same time, no other mods could be used...

[Zebiko]

On 1/2/2017 at 9:58 AM, Reifnir said:

Nope.

It's a mediocre, clunky weapon that is, for all intents and purposes just a piece of infested mastery fodder with a gimmicky mechanic to it. 

It doesn't offer Tigris Prime levels of damage, it doesn't have any amazing features that justify the research cost of 10x more than everything else in the Bio Lab combined. It's just a mistake that has to be fixed to move on. In no way, shape or form it's something that is healthy for the game. Leaving it as is will just create a precedent for future stuff like "hey, let's add a weapon that costs 500 Neural Sensors and 1,000 Argon Crystals to build". 

Yeah, basically sums up the whole Hema problem and future of warframe :(

[Naqel]

On 1/2/2017 at 8:58 AM, Ciaus said:

No DE. Not good enough. 

"Good enough." practically their motto at this point:

• Garbage melee controls - good enough
• Completely imbalanced arsenal - good enough
• Basic mechanics that haven't been fixed for years(like stealth) - good enough
• Half-baked reworks and "features" that do more harm than good - good enough

While it might not be fair to say no "effort" is being made(in the sense that it does take some work to make all those mistakes), there is a demonstrable lack of integrity and thought in all of DE's actions since about Update 7.

[Harutora-Joushiro]

So their excuse is that they don't want to devalue those who already researched it. Ok, so i heard from veteran players that once the most amount of credits a person could make per day was very very low, after a long farming run players would barely make 200K. Now we just go in and in 20 minute make a million and come out with big on our faces. This situation seems like a slap in the face to those who worked really really hard to farm credits back in the day. So how about to honor their hard work DE goes into the account created after the change and make their credit gain rate 1/20, meaning no matter how much credit drops in a mission these "NOOB" accounts will only get 1/20 of it, just to honor the hard work people did in the old days. How about it DE? Do the right thing here too. it is the right thing to do, you are doing it with Hema, so what is stopping you?

[wanderere]

I have 2k hours in the game and I only have 1900 mutagen samples and i need 15k for my clan.....so either i need to spend hours farming or kick inactive friends out of the clan.. yeah great job on that....

not to mention concentrated resource farming is boring af the thought of it makes me exit the game.

seriously everytime i log in there's a new resource to farm or reskinned quests from events hello glast gambit aka the index..