Nidus really needs to get reworked

[Death_Master_]

1 hour ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

 

A nerf was definitely needed, I agree with that.

 

And i disagree, HP buff was needed, not a nerf.

1 hour ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

What this means is that Nidus players need to spam 1 way more than before. As if that wasn't annoying enough for non Nidus players pre-patch, but now it's even more annoying with even more Virulences going around.

But with this i agree, Nidus is turning to press 1 all the time to win by this nerf. 

[duhadventure]

2 hours ago, Oxstarz said:

• Nidus’ Ravenous Maggots no longer auto detonate when feasting on enemies. Previously the Maggots could do a majority of the grunt work and you were able to watch the carnage and gain Stacks at the same time. Now to pop the Maggots you’ll need to cast Virulence on them and rejoice in your hard earned Stack accumulation. It’s also worth noting that with testing by our team, the Stack rhythm before and after this change wasn’t noticed at all. 

Okay, DE, serious talk... Do noooooot introduce this change for PC. Understand that ravenous is the only ability that Nidus has that can be reliably used vs single or few targets. Sure, the whole virulence pop works vs large groups but in quality over quanity scenarios, there is simply no way to sustain your energy. Unless you use a rage mod, but that'd draw the fights out, make you useless in group scenarios that are not horde mode, and make Nidus dependent on a single mod in order to be anything more than an anti-horde frame only. You'd regress the frame into a corner.

I see no problem with this. You have Ravenous cast, it costs stacks, not energy. You just cast larva to herd them into large group, and then use Virulence, the explosion of the maggots and virulence give you stacks while also regenerating energy.

[Oxstarz]

1 minute ago, duhadventure said:

I see no problem with this. You have Ravenous cast, it costs stacks, not energy. You just cast larva to herd them into large group, and then use Virulence, the explosion of the maggots and virulence give you stacks while also regenerating energy.

And what about when you're out of energy?

[duhadventure]

3 minutes ago, Oxstarz said:

And what about when you're out of energy?

Rage, Energy pads, teammates, or just kill things/break crates for energy orbs. Once you get enough 1 cast can get you back into the fight.

Edited January 12, 2017 by duhadventure

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

I don't see why they can't come up with something, test it out before they release it,get it to where they want it then realease it to us,then leave it the way they release it to us. Seems like the route to take.

[Jackviator]

14 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

However, when I feild-tested this, I noticed that stacks are drained alarmingly fast (as fast as they are drained when the stacks are consumed for abilities, even). just out of curiosity, I bullet-jumped above a nullifier's bubble, and melee-slammed through the bubble straight onto the bullifier's head, killing him.

I lost 3 stacks.

.....wut?

They do not drain that fast. They just... don't.

See this gif, from another recent thread by @(PS4)Mofojokers:

They clearly get removed at a rate of about 1 per second, which I think is very reasonable considering how easy it is to get them.

Personally the way Nidus works with bullifiers is how I wish ALL frames that used buffs worked, that is to say, not dropping it instantly but gradually over time.

(Which is kinda the main idea of the thread the gif was in, if you wanna check it out:)

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jackviator

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, Extirpator said:

Be it Warhammer or Blizzard or DE.

You all cannot deny they share the same faction. Humans, Robots and Insects.

Actually, I will deny that. Lol

The Infestation is more based off of a pandemic sort of deal. Spread of a micro-robotic viral/bacterial-like plague that infects everything it touches, rather than swarm of locust sort of deal that eats everything it comes across leaving nothing behind.

To be clear, not bugs.

Edited January 12, 2017 by (PS4)Riko_113

[Wolfwaffe]

Hey, did they also nerfed recast of ravenous? It seems that the duration doesn't get renewed, but still casts and consumes stack.

[Kyronz]

The nullifiers decaying stacks is much preferable to the half-tushed way they have been doing things with this cheesey mob so far (the instant kill of innaros armor, ironskin, etc)

[DinendalMinyatur]

13 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

You keep bringing that up.  If nullifiers move from "barely an issue, just slide attack them" to "oh hey they actually kinda resemble something like a threat that takes more than one shot" only in that high level range, a range that is only exceeded by endlessly scaling missions (which by their very nature are not intended to be balanced past a certain point) and I think raids (never bothered with them, I wouldn't know), frankly I don't see the issue here.  Hard missions are hard and require more care when playing?  How awful!  By the time "run in and slide attack" stops costing more than a pittance of stacks (while other frames entirely SoL if their pinky toe brushes the field) you should be able to use tactics and whatnot:  Gird your loins and get in there consequences be damned, might use more than a few stacks, but that's the price for sticking to a tactic you know has lost some effectiveness.  Retreat, try to break up the group, come at it from a different angle or better position, it baffles me that it feels like nobody ever retreats when they're getting surrounded, it's like they keep charging forward expecting the enemy to back up or die outright by the time they get there.  Don't let nullifiers clump together, if you see one alone, take it out immediately before another shows up, then another, then it's an impenetrable fortress of nullification.  Use your guns, sure abilities are "what makes Warframe, Warframe" (a sentiment I think is dumb and not even close to a proper argument) but you're carrying twice as many guns as you are Warframes (alternatively, half as many guns as abilities, still a generous fraction), guns are a preeeetty big chunk of the game, too.  I'd format this post better, but Firefox is being a butt and breaking, I've had to rely on the forum's auto-save like six times now and I've been trying to get this dumb thing written and not broken for like half an hour now.

Actually it's not a problem with Nidus but nullies themselves. Although I haven't tried yet but I'm going to pick a high RoF weapon for Nidus to deal with nully bubbles. However, as @Separius stated there is a few problems with high-level nullies needs to be adressed. First of all I'm not talking about endless missions but just try to play with any frame against sortie-3 with eximus stronghold modifier. Once a few lvl 100 Arctic Eximus Nullifiers spawned on that mission they are pretty hard to kill due to double globe, high shield and high hp.

Now you may suggest to retreat, yeah you see if you're playing excavation or defense retreat is unlikely.

If only this arctic eximus nullifer spawn rate is somehow lowered than other eximus types It will be pretty neat.

[JalakBali]

5 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

These changes are indeed confusing. They seem contradictory to what DE said about us sitting back letting Maggots stack up for us, but on the other hand, solves one of the problems with Nidus having difficulty getting stacks with a team that actively kills enemies.

The maggots are not making stacks for you if someone else had to help them kill the enemies to create stacks. DE is against passive play, such as pressing 4 and idling by as the maggots build stacks by themselves. It's different if there's an active player creating the stacks.

[Cmdr-A]

Its not even that big a nerf in the first place. They changed the stacks needed to 15,you can easily gain that with a lil bit more work. And the maggot stuff needing to cast the other ability to make them pop. And losing stacks while inside nullifier bubbles. Be glad they all don't disappear instantly like Inaro's 4 when holding 100% for it. Otherwise i don't see this much as a nerf. Just needing to work a bit more to get the buff you're complaining about. None of his abilities do less dmg now so its not that big of an issue.

[Dizzle22]

If anything, it's a good (and refreshing) thing that they do this right away, instead of waiting until three years later like they have with other broken frames.

[Cmdr-A]

As I said in another thread, Be glad it doesn't wipe it instantly once you go into a bubble, much like Inaro's Scarab Swarm gets instantly undone. A small amount of the stack lost over time is nothing to cry over.

[Oxstarz]

26 minutes ago, duhadventure said:

Rage, Energy pads, teammates, or just kill things/break crates for energy orbs. Once you get enough 1 cast can get you back into the fight.

1. That requires deliberately putting yourself in harms way and also drags out the fight.

2. Not everyone have these.

3. Which again prolongs the fight.

 

All of your solutions just drags out non-group fights. Also, it'd make parasites the counter to nidus instead of the other way around. This particular change has yet to hit PC and I hope it never will. 

[Dizzle22]

Like with every other minor nerf in the game, everyone will overreact and abandon the content out of spite. Like the Tonkor, he's still very good, but everyone will suddenly stop using him anyway. It's a pattern that has repeated itself many times in this game.

I, personally, find this to be a good thing. I find Nidus to be an overused, spammy, and visually distracting/annoying Warframe. Another Simulor + Mirage.

I'll be fine with seeing less of him in missions.

[(PSN)TehMunkeyKing]

Have any of these doomsayers actually seen the rate at which his Stacks decrease from Nullifiers? 

It is negligible. 

Spoiler

Source

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by (PS4)TehMunkeyKing

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 hour ago, Death_Master_ said:

And i disagree, HP buff was needed, not a nerf.

If you actually die with 3 active, even in Kuva Flood or Sortie 3, you're doing something REALLY wrong.

[Wolfdoggie]

But I'm a melee player and weapon swap is super slow.

[Gweredith]

I just feel bad that I am forced to destroy my maggots now in order for them to deal damage. Before it was an option, I was a ruthless master who could destroy them if he felt like it. Now it's like, oh you were feeding little guy? Well I HAVE to destroy you so I could get my stacks. 

[Separius]

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

Mesa would have her 95% damage reduction removed and thus lose 75 energy (assuming no efficiency mods) for no gain, whereas Nidus would lose his 90% damage reduction and lose one stack, which is very rarely going to cost even its default 40 energy due to the refund it gives. And just for S#&$s and gigs, bundled into the cost of casting Nidus' Link you also get to damage enemies with Virulence, you completely shut down an enemy by casting link on them, and the immunity lasts for more than twice as long as Shatter Shield does, so the energy efficiency of Nidus is still incredibly high.

The energy loss and stack loss isn't what's important. What's important is both of them losing the damage reduction and getting butchered by sapping ospreys, moas and corpus, nullies included.

The energy on Nidus don't matter most of the time, it's the stacks that matter, no point in you going into this.

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

Before now his energy efficiency was ridiculously high, as his stacks were practically untouchable: be honest now, how many times did you actually end up in a situation where you didn't have enough stacks to perform after the first five minutes...

Happened a couple of times, idk? Nullifier bubble cleansed the link and I lost 10 stacks or got shot dead because no damage reduction. Anyway this is trivial, doesn't justify the nerfs.

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

at least now he's ever so slightly closer in terms of energy efficiency to every other 'frame.

Yeah, no. Other frames should be brought up to his level, not the other way around.

Let me ask you this. Why are you trying to justify this nerf so hard? Why are you so emotionally invested in this? I did say I don't care about the nullifier buff all that much and I gave enough hints that I do not wish to discuss this further. But since you insist, why are you so adamant on this? Does it really hurt you, in a co-op horde shooter game that one character has better survivability than an other frame? Is it really that annoying? It doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game unless you are annoyed by not having the orange numbers on the score screen.

We could have had a situation where people just accept Nidus, and noone would have had their experience made less fun, because Nidus being bulky did not affect anyone else's enjoyment of the game, unless ofc because of the previously mentioned orange numbers or is it just envy? 

Was that it? That your frame doesn't have the cool survivability features that Nidus still has just worse? This is how all the youtubers and forumers who complained sounded like and that's pathetic.

Now what we have is Nidus players having a worse experience while others are like "well at least they got it worse now, hah!", while their experience of the GAME ITSELF didn't change at all, they can just feel better about themselves. What a mess.

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

Wanting Nidus's energy efficiency to not be effected by Nullifiers to nearly the same degree as that of other Warframes is exceptionalism, and your opinion that he was 'fine before the nerf' doesn't mean that changes can't be made to make the gameplay mechanics and experience more consistent.

Why does this matter to you this much? Why? How is one person in your party of 4 or 8 or inbetween, having a relatively easy and fun time, how is it affecting your enjoyment of the game other than the aforementioned pathetic reasons?

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

Also, the vast majority of Warframes aren't sortie tier 3 Corpus Survival friendly, so what's your point?

Yes, I was making that point, so don't twist it like you are making it just now. No warframes were corpus sortie friendly, neither was Nidus, he was fine before the nerf, it wasn't needed.

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

It's not about the beta, it's about the fact that in all that time I've very rarely found myself in a situation where I'm within the bubbles of a large number of Nullifiers that I haven't been able to kill quickly. As such, I don't think it's a particularly major concern.

."It doesn't affect me, it's not an issue" Stop this.

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with all of the rambling at the end there

 

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

Your comparison doesn't make sense though

You are contradicting yourself. You know pretty well what I meant.

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

and this kind of stupid wailing and nashing of teeth whenever a change is made to a strong Warframe is exactly what I was making fun of in my first post in this thread that so upset you. He's fine

Surely insulting is a great way to convince anyone that you are right. And I'm not upset because of the nerfs, I'm upset because of the attitude that they happened, this "oh no he has better orange numbers, he has invulnerability, he's OP, so OP!!! Somehow him being able to carry is ruining my experience in a co-op multiplayer horde shooter!" coming from the forumers and some youtubers and DE caving in. Him being the way he was literally had no effect on anyone else's hordeshooting.

I'm also upset because of the glass-half-full people trying to defend this whole trend or that they jump to DE's defense in general, no matter what. Always just happily accepting what DE gives you and trying to look on the bright side doesn't help improve the game. It's the half empty attitude that does. They are the ones who find mistakes and errors, they are the ones who give criticism, and without feedback like that we'd have a much much worse experience, because everyone would just happily accept everything, because "it could be worse!". 

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

I don't recall saying "deal with it", though, so who's erecting strawmen now?

When/where did I ever tell you that you said to "deal with it"? Deal with what even?

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

I think the nerfs to Nidus were justified, surprisingly restrained

DE caving in to youtuber and forum people crying that Nidus is OP is everything but justified.

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

bring him into line with the vast majority of other Warframes

Why is that important even? Sure we shouldn't have demigods, but Nidus was nowhere near unbalanced. And even then why was it him that's the priority? How about buffing Oberon? Mag? Nerfing ember's early game and improving her for lategame? Anything else? Why nidus? Because people bloody complained on the forums that it's OP, that's why.

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

I'm not entirely convinced by the changes to the way maggot collect stacks, but then under the previous condition they were essentially free

And why does that annoy you? How does that affect your gameplay?

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

People complain that DE are rubbish at balance, but is that really so hard to imagine given that their primary feedback source see-saws on everything?  Everything is either useless or OP to this community, and it's not doing the game any favours.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with all of the rambling at the end there. They got praise for vanilla nidus. The feedback forum is mostly constructive criticism. Don't generalize because of a few bad apples.

[FashionFrame]

Apparently it's hard to avoid nullifier bubbles, or even try to pop them. Even if you get inside the bubble, the null is really easy to kill, even in sorties. That 1-2 seconds is too much for people to handle I guess 

[duhadventure]

21 minutes ago, Oxstarz said:

1. That requires deliberately putting yourself in harms way and also drags out the fight.

2. Not everyone have these.

3. Which again prolongs the fight.

 

All of your solutions just drags out non-group fights. Also, it'd make parasites the counter to nidus instead of the other way around. This particular change has yet to hit PC and I hope it never will. 

Wait if its a non group fight just use melee or a gun. We have those for a reason. If you are using only Nidus's abilities as a crutch and have no backup weapons to use then you are doing something wrong. 

 

[(PSN)forChristsake]

16 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

But I'm a melee player and weapon swap is super slow.

Uhh, hit the bubble with your melee? Never had much issue doing that. If that was sarcasm,  sorry, I just woke up

[Jorencice]

14 hours ago, Separius said:

 

There can be 8-12 nullies in high level sortie survival in one room at the time. By the time you and your teammates get rid of all of them the same amount spawns and swarms you again. It's not the same situation as your level 30 survivals where you barely see any of them simultaneously.

But then again why am I even arguing with you people about this, you are literally defending the most unfun aspect of corpus games, tied with the millions of sapper ospreys swarming you (which you can't exactly kill when the whole area is protected by nullifier bubbles.) They need to be removed, not stood up for, this is insane.

Also, last guy, not everyone has the Zenistar or likes using it. Be more considerate instead of being condescending.

Get a zarr ^-^

I can 1 shot multiple null bubble in a single shot with it. Due to it being like 15 explosions per shot.

Basically i zarr their feet. The bubbles dissaper. I press W+Q boom multiple nidus stacks.

Not to mention due to its high proc rate it good for killing armored units which nidus isnt good at.