Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[DreamsmithJane]

I don't know if it will make him more popular, but it will certainly make him more capable. Look at what he gains.

• Easy access in and out of the rift, at any time, quickly, for free.
• The ability to bring a significant number of enemies into the rift easily and repeatedly, without burning all his energy or exposing himself to damage (AoE Banish).
• The ability to fight all enemies without leaving the rift, and enable his allies to do more damage (Rift Surge).
• The ability to leverage the rift in multiple areas at once, creating safe zones and choke points without relying on his ult (Rift Surge again).
• Near complete safety inside the rift, (Stasis).

People have been taking these changes out of context, and, for example, complaining that AoE banish would be dangerous, because "if Limbo brings a lot of enemies into the rift, he'll just die". Yes, using Cataclysm recklessly puts Limbo in danger, but Banish knocks enemies down, and perhaps more importantly, Limbo can also "pause" the rift. I am baffled by anyone getting upset that he could potentially engage multiple enemies easily, in a game that expects players to do exactly that on a regular basis. Between Stasis and the reworked Rift Surge, Limbo will now potentially have better than Molecular Prime crowd control and squad-wide damage output enhancement, provided the player is skilled enough to use it properly and the squad knows enough to play along. This will change Limbo from practically a duelist, into a large scale tactician. I think that's exactly what he needs.

[Larred]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

I don't know if it will make him more popular, but it will certainly make him more capable. Look at what he gains.

• Easy access in and out of the rift, at any time, quickly, for free.
• The ability to bring a significant number of enemies into the rift easily and repeatedly, without burning all his energy or exposing himself to damage (AoE Banish).
• The ability to fight all enemies without leaving the rift, and enable his allies to do more damage (Rift Surge).
• The ability to leverage the rift in multiple areas at once, creating safe zones and choke points without relying on his ult (Rift Surge again).
• Near complete safety inside the rift, (Stasis).

People have been taking these changes out of context, and, for example, complaining that AoE banish would be dangerous, because "if Limbo brings a lot of enemies into the rift, he'll just die". Yes, using Cataclysm recklessly puts Limbo in danger, but Banish knocks enemies down, and perhaps more importantly, Limbo can also "pause" the rift. I am baffled by anyone getting upset that he could potentially engage multiple enemies easily, in a game that expects players to do exactly that on a regular basis. Between Stasis and the reworked Rift Surge, Limbo will now potentially have better than Molecular Prime crowd control and squad-wide damage output enhancement, provided the player is skilled enough to use it properly and the squad knows enough to play along. This will change Limbo from practically a duelist, into a large scale tactician. I think that's exactly what he needs.

i bolded part of this cause i think he still will retain the best part, separating eximus units from your squad, that has always been one of my favorite things about him, but he gains so much more so im really excited

[Rythiman]

I agree that those who think banish having area of effect will bring too many enemies into the rift are being hypercritical. With the current limbo I usually banish multiple enemies before I attack anyway so AoE would just streamline what I already do. Between the knockdown effect and the addition of stasis, if those enemies you banished kill you it's your own fault. Limbo's passive to switch weapons and reload faster makes him excel for players with quick thinking. I can banish two enemies over there, pop a cataclysm near a distant objective, take out the two enemies I just banished with my Tigris, reload super fast, switch weapons super fast, rift surge to multiply my side arm damage by 3, turn and snipe a few high armor targets in the cataclysm, collapse the cataclysm to take out the weaker enemies. I described a lot but I make it happen in seconds. And it's fun. And these added changes only adds to the mayhem I can unleash on the field. Already I can imagine using stasis for added CC, leaving enemies to their inevitable doom all over the battlefield, pressing two, and watching them all drop at once, all the while his new number 3 killing whatever enemies you didn't bring into the rift. You can even use frozen enemies hit by your 3 with frozen projectiles heading toward their face as traps so that when new enemies pass them trying to approach you you can press 2, watch those enemies die and shortly send out rift energy to damage those new enemies headed towards you. What I love about limbo is most players are baffled by him but a few of us get him and love him. That makes finding another (good) limbo player a delight. If you can't figure out how to make the proposed changes work you are probably better off with a press 4 to win Warframe. I think if you are clever enough to make the current limbo work you are clever enough to make the rework limbo even more awesome. I'm not even going to complain about the cap on enemies you can freeze because unless it's something terrible like only 3 enemies you are realistically not going to want to have that many enemies in the rift with you at once anyway. If you lose count or lose track of one it can come back later and shoot you in the back.

It's also my opinion that if you think limbo can only be used in solo you're not thinking outside the box. In rescue I banish the rescue target to help the team. In defense and mobile defense a small radius bubble makes the defense target invulnerable. The same is true of banish in sortie defense. Interception consoles cannot be activated by the enemies when a cataclysm is up. Spy mission Traps will not go off if you trip them whilst in the rift. A Loki that is banished will be both invisible and not trip traps. Several Warframe allies benefit greatly from the energy surge of the rift whilst still maintaining the use of high damage abilities. High priorities targets that are giving my team a problem can be banished and one shot. There are several interesting ways to use limbo, they just require a little out of the box thinking. If you're stuck on the fact that you can't bring that mobile defense hacking thing into the rift then you're blocking your mind off from all the many benefits and a rework won't change that.

[achromos]

I think these changes will make limbo a much more common frame to see then he currently is outside of the usual Banish rescue target cheese.  However:

 

Limbo still interferes with gathering loot.

I understand steve's point on keeping this as is, but maybe players could have an effect similar to vacuum where the loot will gravitate towards them and stick around them and they can collect it by simply leaving cataclysm and or rolling out of banish.  This will keep the identity that Steve wants but also give players a option to dash into a cataclysm that a limbo has and suck up the loot and then leave the cataclysm effected area later to officially collect it.  This would reduce Limbo feeling like a Square block trying to fit in a Circle slot with many team-compositions.

Limbo cannot interact with anything outside the rift.

I also understand Steve's point on making it so that the rift is almost it's own separate thing from the material plane and that is totally cool.  Though, what about the spawning of all those mini-cataclysms (as talked about in the Devstream) can we get rid of those?  What if one of those happens to form over a Life Support, or the Only Life support or a Data-mass or someone holding one?  Or what if one of those happens to form over a panel you need to hack to progress?  Can we cancel those?  I feel like it would be much better, if at least limbo were able to interact with stuff on the physical plane... at a cost.  Something that would make sense like Limbo being able to use his mastery over the Rift to phase half way into the material plane.  For instance...  As a limbo, if you wanted to interact with a Life Support Module you could for a cost, instead of being 100% resistant to damage from enemies within the Material plane it could be 50%, cost energy (the cost of banish, lets say) and you could make it take twice as long to pop a life-support.  For instances of Hacking you could just allow limbo to have only a 50% Damage reduction while in the rift, being half in and half out.

For instances of carrying a data-mass it could also be a 50% damage reduction (but you take damage from enemies both in the material plane and in the void) and it could be like the Volt's Shield mechanic, basically for every second you are carrying the Data-Mass or object you lose energy over time.

If this must further be balanced maybe make it a cost of banish each time a limbo does this further making it more attractive to drop out of the Void but leaving even limbo with some options.

In Closing.

I totally understand and appreciate Steves sentiments about wanting to keep the Rift mechanics as they are, but as they are Limbo feels like a detriment to the team in so many ways.  Blocking loot, unable to carry data-mass...  If he drops a cataclysm over said data-mass not even he can pick it up.

Edited February 27, 2017 by achromos

[Rythiman]

I always felt like limbo should be able to activate consoles or life support by staying in the rift with only his fingers of hands staying in the material plane. It would require true mastery of the rift, so maybe make it possible at rank 30 or with an augment.

[PsiWarp]

Indeed, it's the amount of control the Limbo player can exert over you because of the rules of the Rift Plane that is a big problem. You never know if the Limbo you're partying with has done his homework and is well versed in using the Rift Plane, if he's a cooperative player who will attempt to minimize the restrictions imposed by the rift, or at a whim decides to spam all his powers left and right while you and other players have to deal with it.

I know I know, blame the player not the frame. There are many ways to work around the rift, like bringing a Sentinel to vacuum up loot inside Cataclysm or when you're banished, knowing to roll out of Banish to use objects, etc. But, that's not addressing the problem at its core. When a gameplay mechanic's design interferes with standard gameplay by providing 1 player with a disproportionate amount of control over other players' options, that's just asking for trouble.

I will be content if they just made it so Limbos can't waste your time stopping mission progress in MD, Excavation, Sabotage, Survival, etc. I want to fight alongside this dapper space magician, not be dangling off his puppet strings.

Btw, where did Steve talk about Limbo? Or do you mean Scott on Devstream 88? Just curious :)

Edited February 27, 2017 by PsiWarp

[Blade_Wolf_16]

29 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

 It would require true mastery of the rift, so maybe make it possible at rank 30 or with an augment.

Probably the best way to introduce it, since you could choose to use it or not for some missions depending of the type and your personal gameplay. It would be similar to Nyx' very usefull Absorb Augment.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16

[NecromancerX69]

I am sure I saw limbo being able to pick stuff inside the rift on the latest Dev Stream or am I wrong?

[PsiWarp]

2 hours ago, NecromancerX69 said:

I am sure I saw limbo being able to pick stuff inside the rift on the latest Dev Stream or am I wrong?

They didn't mention it specifically, but yes, Limbo (and presumably other players as well) can pick up loot inside Cataclysm with the version of the rework in Devstream 88. The trouble is we don't know if those mini-bubbles from Rift Surge will allow that too.

Also there should be a way to remove all mini-bubbles with a press of a button (hold 3?). I don't want to experience the days of no-way-to-recast Cataclysm again but on a massive scale with so many bubbles active at once... good luck trying to pick up datamasses, power cells, hack consoles, call elevators, activate Life Support Capsules, open lockers, etc.

[Quanlain]

Well, i had some pretty productive topic on subreddit, all about limbo's rework

Many people agree, that most problems are hapening because of cataclysm, pretty interesting thoughts and ideas people got here: 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5w38nv/limbo_rework_thoughts/

 

Didn't realise, that my topic got moved into a megathread, but still, reddit post grew in size since then. 

Overall, some of Limbo's new features are questionable and can have potential for trolling. 

My opinion:

pretty much every change is for greater good. Rift surge really have to be in his future, and if it will be a part of his passive, that would be great. 

Chain cataclysms are very questionable things due to their double edged nature. 

Stasis have big potential, but on theories it can be just a skill for fun, like vauban's tripwires and concussions. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Quanlain

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Could we plz change this? Kinda dumb.

 

Also, limbo should be able to walk through enemies instead of being surrounded in a way he cant even move...like how infested group up.

 

Hes in an alternative reality, he should just walk right through them. Maybe have a secondary effect where if he materializes in an enemy as he exits the rift...it does a crap ton of damage.

[bluepheonix13]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Could we plz change this? Kinda dumb.

That's a bug, doesn't happen to me on PC.

22 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

 

Also, limbo should be able to walk through enemies instead of being surrounded in a way he cant even move...like how infested group up.

 

Hes in an alternative reality, he should just walk right through them. Maybe have a secondary effect where if he materializes in an enemy as he exits the rift...it does a crap ton of damage.

Interesting idea, but I don't like it very much, because it would probably do weird things to our camera if we run through enemies.

[Insizer]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Also, limbo should be able to walk through enemies instead of being surrounded in a way he cant even move...like how infested group up.

And what happens if he leaves the rift (or is forced out), while clipping through an enemy?  I don't see how else they could reliably address this issue unless they institute something like a tele-frag system (which could be OP).

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

16 minutes ago, Insizer said:

And what happens if he leaves the rift (or is forced out), while clipping through an enemy?  I don't see how else they could reliably address this issue unless they institute something like a tele-frag system (which could be OP).

I said if he pops out of the rift and phases into an enemy...does crap ton of damage. Heck he could do a 1m aoe of damage to any enemies when he phases back in.

Edited February 28, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[PsiWarp]

Those would be nice to have, but not necessary with the rework. Just activate Stasis, banish everything surrounding you, do a quick spin attack, deactivate Stasis and you're free to roam. Or just Bullet Jump up if you don't wanna bother pressing too many buttons.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I'm sure status procs don't activate from enemies outside the rift while he's in the rift. But if you get a status proc on the material plane, you can take the status proc with you if you go in the rift.

Maybe you're talking about environmental damage like the traps on the Kuva fortress. Those things inexplicably hurt Limbo while he's in the rift but environmental traps on Lua like ice floors or electric floors do not.

[DeMonkey]

9 hours ago, Insizer said:

And what happens if he leaves the rift (or is forced out), while clipping through an enemy?  I don't see how else they could reliably address this issue unless they institute something like a tele-frag system (which could be OP).

What was it, GRID, Shift? One of those racing games. 

Spawning your car back onto the track caused you to be a ghost car, you couldn't collide with anyone for 'x' amount of time, driving inside of someone else would merely extend the duration of your ghostlyness until you moved out. A similar sort of thing could be applied here, if you leave the rift and you're still inside an enemy then you maintain the ability to move through enemies until you're free.

[Etharien]

I have definitely been dot proc'd on PC as well. Notable sources include the Juggernaut and hyekka masters. Juggernaut all the time, and hyekka masters have been situational. It probably has something to do with spawning an environmental hazard...

[-FV-Metheria]

I feel as though while this ability is very cool, it'll be pointless. It acts as a CC tool, but Limbo as a whole has shifted towards being a damage frame. This CC, suffers from essentially being completely outclassed by other options. Nova can provide over bigger areas, Vauban does a full hard cc freezing enemies for you essentially but you're able to shoot them anywhere at any time...there just isn't gonna be good reason for Limbo to have what can only be used for CC that can be hard to work with if you aren't good with rift mechanics. This ability could be made better if anything shot and frozen in time gained bonus damage for the effort to set up a elaborate deathtrap, justifying using this ability in certain scenarios.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Nothing stops you from doing melee tho.

[PsiWarp]

Listening to a bit of AGGP's videos after the devstream, his post-stream discussion with Rebecca revealed more changes to come for Stasis, such as hitscan bullets not being frozen in time instead recording the damage dealt to enemies (like the invulnerability for the target affected by Nyx's Mind Control and Nidus' Parasitic Link), and same goes for melee damage (though we saw her melt enemies with my Zenistar during the stream).

While that's good and all and sounds really exciting, it opens up even more possible trolling as teammates' projectiles presumably will freeze in time too, with their hitscan and melee damage recorded but Limbo controls when those apply. Stasis is said to have a base duration, and most Limbos I know run high duration on a normal day, which means an almost unnecessarily long delay in killing enemies for teammates who can wipe map tiles in the blink of an eye; that's an additional annoyance on top of no looting and object using.

As for the bonus damage concern you have, we don't know if Rift Surge keeps its damage multiplier or not. I have high hopes however, since they mentioned the new Rift Surge is inspired by Molecular Prime mechanics... which could possibly mean each Surged enemy take additional damage from weapons since Limbo has to radially "prime" them while they are in the rift, and since it looks like its a debuff to each individual enemy, maybe allies can take advantage of the damage bonus (if there is one) by going into the rift.

[MakeLuvNotWerFrame]

I'm eager to see how well time freeze will pair with other frame abilities.

like nova's anti-matter drop, unload a group of high damage but slow to fire rounds and prime up some combos.

 

or say for instance projectiles frozen overlap with a cast of mag's Magnetize, will the universe implode? 

 

lets not forget the compounded issues with net-code+projectile tracking+sync, this once was a big issue with item drops til the caps were implemented.

 

only time will tell but here's hoping that most odd ball situations are considered and given a check pass.

[W0wRUUD]

I think the only big problem with stasis is the shutdown effect for going over the target limit. It makes it hard for limbo to be really good at CCing large crowds, and being "deactivated" is a devastating penalty, especially in high-level missions.

[Kagemitsukenshi]

I noticed the status procing too also you can hook enemies while in the rift with lacera and mios

[Ostrichofninja]

TL;DR I think Limbos rift filter should look something like this just less intense.

I played like this for almost an hour and even with the way you can see it was playable, if a filter like this is created and tweaked, I believe it would look good and it wouldn't be too hard to understand what is what.

With less intense i mean less of the dark patches, more polished look, tweaked. I can easily imagine  a colorless grineer, which blurs as it moves running to cover.

If this gets implemented(I always have high hopes), rifted enemies and your squad mates should get some sort of highlight, like an aura or outline. For example allies could get an aura in their energy color, enemies get glowing eyes for coolness points, in their factions color. Or none of the highlight stuff, but that could get confusing.

I tinkered with my video cards settings and encountered a bug. But it looked kinda good to me and I think it fitted for the limbo/rift theme, so I thought it would be a good replacement for Limbos rift filter thingy.

I think it should be changed because it is sometimes hard to notice if someone has rifted you, at least if you are a new player (noticed this when farming in low levels), if the filter was more easily noticeable at least they would try to find out what happened and end up knowing what happened instead of wondering why they can't harm anything.

In my opinion it can be changed in any way or even stay as is, because it is not that big of a problem, but I would still like to know somebody elses opinion.

I know how to recreate the visuals(at least on my my computer, which has an rx 480) if anyone is interested.

I have been playing with limbo for quite some time and I personally would love the rift filter to be changed to this.

Further text is useless and written out of boredom. Do not read if you have something better to do. It's in a spoiler thing to save space

Spoiler

 

DON'T RUN INDOORS, MY ARM GOT IMPALED ON A DOOR-HANDLE AND SOME TISSUE WAS RIPPED OPEN, but if you do, don't run next to doors with handles.

The video took me an hour to upload, i have about 50 mins of footage, to upload it all i would need 35 hours.

Is this even worth the effort? A total of over 2 hours i could have spent any other way. Well i really like how it looked and an hour and a half has already passed so why not?

Was the TL;DR even necessary? 

If you read this, thx m8 I appreciate your time, otherwise, thx m8 I appreciate the gesture and life lesson.

It took me more than an hour to upload the video itself, like y tho, getting the feeling that it's not going to be that good of an idea as i imagined. All i have right now is hope and an hour of boredom. I can get a better internet but it costs more and is a change and change is hard. I should get a different video editor, this one takes too long to open.

Why does German language have less conjugations than mine? Why does both German and Russian have three genders for words, but mine only has one? What interest me more, math or language? What else can be done with magnets other than what i already know? Did Slavs really ask Scandinavians to rule over their country? How does one play mahjong? Why didn't the USSR demolish the monument of freedom in Latvia? Was it really because of that famous artist lady who was born in Riga? Why are the viking and ancient Greek mythologies so similar? Is the education in USA not that good or are only the not so smart people represented in media? Why is there an art exhibition in my school that looks like hentai? Did the ones who decided to put it up not notice? Why does the year change with time zones? Shouldn't it change like an egg getting wet when put into water, because of how the Earth moves around the Sun? Does the word pohuj change how one sees the world, because it makes stating that you don't care so easy?  Will i ever stop writing becouse instead of because, so i wouldn't have to correct it every time? Why do i like the color red so much? What is the graphite of rubber pencils made out of? From where did the myth that if you crawl through a natural arch from tree roots you will become a werewolf come from? Could we grow plants on the moons soil if it was fertilized and put in a greenhouse? Why do so many people dislike math when it's so easy? Is there a better way, that works, of governing a country than democracy? Why the second of June and not the first or third? Do humans have a preferred time for conceiving? How come we don't have glasses that stretch or shorten the light that goes through, so we could see different spectrums of light, like infrared or ultraviolet? Is there a cause for someone having a non-standard sexuality or is it random? Can i stand on the side of my work vehicle while it is driving if i become a trash delivery man? Can i become a trash delivery man with a friend so we can have trash collection tactical ops? Can i buy a trash delivery vehicle and steal trash in a way that nobody notices? If i can find a use for trash can i become a criminal who deals with trash? Why do we not have circular polarized windows, which we could turn to make them not be see through? Is this the last question, or am i too tired to go on?

Okay all done, I don't have the energy left in me to double check all of this post so here goes, sure do hope no one has suggested this exactly before, i efforted too hard for this