Do you Think there's a Skill Gap in warframe ?

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Take 3 MR 8 in Hieracon and try to keep them there for 1200 cryo, then get back to me. 

Yeah, I just gotta say MR doesn't matter here. It's what frames and how you play. I've been running normal and nightmare LoR since MR7 and my clan (all MR20 and above) are still impressed with how I perform. I run Nyx, always in raids, and have carried MR17's and above in the raid, or completing the Jordas Verdict.

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

That's definitely true in low levels, but with the addition of nullys, saps, bombards and gunners at level 100+ that all goes away quick. 

no it doesn't.

sure, a bombard might be able to one shot you from off screen without any warning (which isn't "difficult" btw, just (counter-)cheese bullsheet) they usually won't if they're perma-CCed along with the whole area. yeah nullifiers might be the only exception and we all know how the community loves those (you have shoot them?! maybe even switch weapons first? ridicoulous!)... thank god those are gonna be nerfed soon.

... and even IF once in a blue moon you should die: some perma-invisible loki will run up to you soon enough to revive you with no consequence whatsoever. even lives are unlimited. this game is beyond easy, hardly even a game, more like button happy pastime.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Yeah, I just gotta say MR doesn't matter here. It's what frames and how you play. I've been running normal and nightmare LoR since MR7 and my clan (all MR20 and above) are still impressed with how I perform. I run Nyx, always in raids, and have carried MR17's and above in the raid, or completing the Jordas Verdict.

 

Hence skill or lack thereof. Lower MR player are generally less skilled, but higher MR can also lack skill. 

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Hence skill or lack thereof. Lower MR player are generally less skilled, but higher MR can also lack skill. 

Not necessarily lack skill, but knowledge of what to do. 

There are MR5's that can perform better than MR15's. The same thing goes for MR15's doing better than some MR5's.

Nothing is more annoying than being excluded because you're "a skrub MR7" and apparently they know for a fact you don't know what you're doing.

Give an MR7 a Frost or Frost Prime in the excavation you mentioned, and they can perform as good as a MR16. 

 

[ComCray]

Actually... the skill gap is found in (for instance) how some manage to stay alive for any amount of time while playing Banshee without resorting to constant quaking and some will drop as soon as they stop quaking. Or an Excalibur that solos a two hour survival and ends up having done most kills with his braton with an 80+ accuracy vs one that starts using his EB at the start of mercury:exterminate and still ends up missing everything. Or that Trinity that keeps her team of glass canons alive, for over 100 minutes, without going down once vs the one that drops between every blessing she does...

You know.. the REAL Tenno vs the Cheese Tenno....

 

~hides~

[(PSN)watt4hem]

There are these mythical beings known as banshee mains. It is said that they have supreme skillz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And got downed alot

[KIREEK]

Remember, it's the mechanical difficulty that messes up with players, not the mathematical difficulty.

Sadly weapons and mods don't compenssate for the obvious, some of those things are not learned after the tutorial and are dragged into high level gameplay, such as:

• players still need help with builds or don't know if a certain mod is good or not (riven mods expose the issue even further)
• players lack options when dealing with a unusual situation, not because the game doesn't have them, but because their lack of knowledge causes it, an example is nullifiers and all the ways you can deal with them, since some players only know how to deal with them 1 way, all it takes is a sniper only sortie and they are screwed.
• players that lack interest in getting better, so they do a sortie rescue the same way they 1st did the rescue, by using the front door, taking more time, hacking, possibly dying and letting enemies in for those who are competent.
• Very slow tileset progression (lacks interest in parkour manouvers),
• Remember that being fast doesn't mean you are better, many super fast players still use the front door on rescue sorties, they are good when moving from point A to B, but killing, CC, creating a diversion or anything else to help other players is severaly lacking and only gets worse when not even in the rescue room they provide any usefullness
• Jumping into missions unprepared (no gear, no tought into focus, weapons, builds) and hopes for the best, will often quit when other players can't help much
• Not reading sortie conditions, not knowing mission type, unable to identify tilesets by looking at the image, not knowing the faction.
• will often ask questions on builds or watch videos hoping to be as effective as some youtube players, who have in some cases, dreadfull gameplay wise compared to the players that do things on another level with the same unlocked content, in other words, they expect others to tell them how to be good instead of trully being good.
• By asking average players on how to do things, they will most certainly only go as far as the average player while lacking basics (minimap, hud, visuals or audio are examples) and so the player will often find it odd that some players are so much better compared to them.
• Lack of experience and lack of basic mechanics, examples are plenty, marking marked content on the minimap, marking kuva siphons in an unmissable path to an objective (makes sense on spy or if you didn't find it, but not if you will find it by moving forward), confusing magnetic hazard in a sortie core ship sabotage by asking if it's the ice hazard, this last one means the player lacks visual experience (no enemies comming vs enemies comming to take something down), lack of ui experience (takes 2 missions to understand that the timer goes at different speeds depending on the hazard), lack of minimap usage (4 wps on cores vs 1 wp on terminal) and audio defficiency (lotus speaks to identify the hazard comming), meaning it's not 1 mistake, it's a disaster of a player that is playing a sortie mission
• Insists of doing things his way especially if it's related to laziness (no interest in upgrading or learning the modding system, staying afk, expecting others to do the content for them, no actual interest in the gameplay of the actual game)
• Poor results in profile, especially large ammount of quits and not all that high mission success rate, meaning the player is a liability and unreliable
• Inefficient gameplay is also present, players that do less effort to kill will often get way less in missions, while great players will make missions seem way to easy and the rewards are insane compared to the time it took to clear the mission.

 

I think i mentioned everything, if you place a wp on a kuva siphon for example, you already know where you stand in terms of skill, same for rescues by using the front door, not reading sortie conditions, now knowing how to deal with nullifiers, asking for builds or if a riven mod is good or not, that alone covers a ton of players who are in the very best average and in the very worst, dreadfull

Edited April 18, 2017 by KIREEK

[Blade_Wolf_16]

In PvP, people notice the gab by looking at how many times others get downed or badly hurt, if they kill a lot or not, etc., wich is more a matter of weapon and build. In Conclave, there is a gap too, but different. 

For example, beginners will probably not jump around like crazy while shooting with perfect aim, or use their weapons the most effective ways. I am personnaly very bad in Conclave, and I have to say that playing on PC with a PS3 controller doesn't help. But, the difference is that Conclave requires more skill than PvE, as your enemies are also a lot more skilled than regular enemies. Not more resistant than a lvl100 Bombard, but somehow a lot more deadly. It also requires knowledge of the stats (of both weapons and Warframes), abilities, maps and mods that are uniques to Conclave, and beginners don't know all the things that can be used against them during a fight.

[Duavey]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I for one think no there isn't much of a skill gap, seeing how we're fighting brain dead enemies that only have 1 or 2 options of action, have horrible accuracy, and are super slow compared to us. That's what lead me to becoming burnt out the first time I started playing warframe . I lasted about a year and 8 months, I have now found new love in conclave.

But that's beside the point, do you think there is a genuine skill gap between players in PVE?

(not trying to insult anyone. I'm just looking for people's honest opinions)

You haven't really phrased this well, but I assume you mean skill gap between PvP players and PvE players, in which case the answer is yes. If this is between players in PvE, the answer is still yes.

That said, this is a twitch/horde shooter, so most of the skill involved is experience, reflex, and hand-eye coordination. There are no deep mechanics, no strategical thinking, no challenging puzzles. It's not a Souls game, or Monster Hunter. It's not a MOBA. It's sure as hell not a strategy game. Just point and shoot.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

43 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

no.

with the right loadout the game basically becomes cookie clicker. for a self proclaimed action game / 3rd person shooter it quite literally has the lamest meta i've ever seen in any such game. i mean just look at frames like trinity, in pretty much any other game somthing like that would be iddqd... in this game however she isn't even needed 90% of the time because mana is even more overabundant than ammo anyway.

but don't you dare discussing balance / *gasp* nerfs... fun killer meanie!

29 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

no it doesn't.

sure, a bombard might be able to one shot you from off screen without any warning (which isn't "difficult" btw, just (counter-)cheese bullsheet) they usually won't if they're perma-CCed along with the whole area. yeah nullifiers might be the only exception and we all know how the community loves those (you have shoot them?! maybe even switch weapons first? ridicoulous!)... thank god those are gonna be nerfed soon.

... and even IF once in a blue moon you should die: some perma-invisible loki will run up to you soon enough to revive you with no consequence whatsoever. even lives are unlimited. this game is beyond easy, hardly even a game, more like button happy pastime.

Do you understand what contradictions are? Also to keep up the constaCC you're talking about you need a trinity or a metric-sht-ton of energy pads at high levels because your enrgy keeps getting sucked away by invisible enemies. 

Also. Last I checked 4 doesn't equal infinity, but I guess you just like to exaggerate a lot it seems. 

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

No skill gap.

Cos it's not like it takes much skill to get something like Narrow Minded.

Only time/money invested gap.

They just don't have the mods.

Take any MR 23 with their X forma Nova, and see how well they can do speed portals in LoR. Even I am not good at it. I know very few amazing nova players and it is a skill gap. Most content is a gear or mods gap, but you can have 9 forma on nova with all the right mods and not be good at it.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

17 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Not necessarily lack skill, but knowledge of what to do. 

There are MR5's that can perform better than MR15's. The same thing goes for MR15's doing better than some MR5's.

Nothing is more annoying than being excluded because you're "a skrub MR7" and apparently they know for a fact you don't know what you're doing.

Give an MR7 a Frost or Frost Prime in the excavation you mentioned, and they can perform as good as a MR16. 

 

Skills can be learned hence skill-gap. Some pick it up quicker than others and that in itself is a skill, so I don't know what we're arguing about here. 

[(PSN)TertulSee]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I for one think no there isn't much of a skill gap, seeing how we're fighting brain dead enemies that only have 1 or 2 options of action, have horrible accuracy, and are super slow compared to us. That's what lead me to becoming burnt out the first time I started playing warframe . I lasted about a year and 8 months, I have now found new love in conclave.

But that's beside the point, do you think there is a genuine skill gap between players in PVE?

(not trying to insult anybody I'm just looking for people's honest opinions)

Yeah, there are the try hard who generally try to avoid taking damage and the ones that don't care. That's just pretty much the only skill gap we have. Also, certain frames are a bit more difficult to use than others such as Banshee. 

[zehne]

It's hard to notice the skill gap in warframe.   Typically this is because the less skilled players will tend to use weapons that compensate.

i.e.

You can't aim for S#&$:

1. Play Mirage
2. Use Synoid

You can't parkour/aim/shoot (you get shot alot because you don't move)

1. Play Valkyr
2. Play Trinity
3. Play Chroma
4. Play Nidus

Just 2 examples of where apparent skill gaps are nearly completely mitigated for the majority of the warframe experience.  Given high enough levels the skill gaps might start to show again, but since those levels are way beyond sortie tier most everyone is likely to never see it.

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Do you understand what contradictions are? Also to keep up the constaCC you're talking about you need a trinity or a metric-sht-ton of energy pads at high levels because your enrgy keeps getting sucked away by invisible enemies. 

Also. Last I checked 4 doesn't equal infinity, but I guess you just like to exaggerate a lot it seems.

no, unfortunately i'm not exaggerating at all.

funny enough with your argument you've only proven my point: you say to overcome said challenge one needs trinity / pads. not skill, not know-how, not dexterity, not reflexes, not sophisticated strategies / teamplay, no. a certain piece of loadout. and that is pretty much the answer to any question regarding challenges in warframe. that was my point. all that trinity player has to do is press 3. one single button is pretty much his / her entire mission. such skill, wow.

also: energy getting sucked by invisible enemies... again, this isn't "hard". this is unavoidable bs. if you think that's challenge we could also make the game more "challenging" by letting warframes suffer from some kind of virus that just randomly kills them some time into the mission. still got nothing to do with skill based gameplay.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Also. Last I checked 4 doesn't equal infinity, but I guess you just like to exaggerate a lot it seems.

4 per mission (5 with certain arcanes, which is plenty) but infitite overall. originally once you had spent those 4 lives that warframe used was gone for the day and you had to try something else at least... until DE for whatever reason thought that even that was too harsh or whatever. i dunno it was around the time of introduction of sorties iirc...

oh, and regarding the "contradiction": that remark about nullifiers was meant to be sarcastic and tbh quite obviously in context...

Edited March 2, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

no, unfortunately i'm not exaggerating at all.

funny enough with your argument you've only proven my point: you say to overcome said challenge one needs trinity / pads. not skill, not know-how, not dexterity, not reflexes, not sophisticated strategies / teamplay, no. a certain piece of loadout. and that is pretty much the answer to any question regarding challenges in warframe. that was my point. all that trinity player has to do is press 3. one single button is pretty much his / her entire mission. such skill, wow.

also: energy getting sucked by invisible enemies... again, this isn't "hard". this is unavoidable bs. if you think that's challenge we could also make the game more "challenging" by letting warframes suffer from some kind of virus that just randomly kills them some time into the mission. still got nothing to do with skill based gameplay.

Only thing I've proven is that you like to complain about things just because its easy and you can. Bringing a trinity into a game doesn't mean success, the person operating it needs to know how to use her. 

Again, I like how you just keep going back and forth from "too easy meta" to "bs energy drain". Just goes to show skill-gap is real and your comments prove it. 

[Kaotyke]

There are time I'm playing a squishy Warframe and then I'm suddenly with 100 HP or less because I wasnt paying attention and got myself in the middle of an enemy cluster and they are not happy with me, does me being able to dodge, parkour and roll long enough to restore all my shields counts as skill?

Spoiler

I would call that panickly flailing around tbh...

 

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Zero skill.

You either cheese, or you don't cheese.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Only thing I've proven is that you like to complain about things just because its easy and you can.

well um... yes. isn't this kinda what this thread is about? pretty much 90% of its participants so far have stated there is no or hardly any skill gap in warframe. any particular reason you cling to me so vehemently?!

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Bringing a trinity into a game doesn't mean success, the person operating it needs to know how to use her.

look at enemy, press 3. rinse and repeat. *applause*

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Again, I like how you just keep going back and forth from "too easy meta" to "bs energy drain". Just goes to show skill-gap is real and your comments prove it.

no, it doesn't. the fact DE has to rely on cheesy armor and damage scaling as well as unavoidable AOE bs to give us at least a slight illusion of actual difficulty friction does not prove me wrong, it makes perfect sense.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

Zero skill.

You either cheese, or you don't cheese.

Yup, zero skill. Just turn on the game, place the controller on your forehead and win. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Just now, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Yup, zero skill. Just turn the game, place the controller on your forehead and win. 

With an Ember or Equinox in a low level mission?  More often than I'd like to admit.

Level 100+?  Frost, Trinity, Banshee, and Nova.  Want to go more than ten hours?  Sure, why not?

Zero...skill....

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

3 hours ago, Duavey said:

You haven't really phrased this well, but I assume you mean skill gap between PvP players and PvE players, in which case the answer is yes. If this is between players in PvE, the answer is still yes.

That said, this is a twitch/horde shooter, so most of the skill involved is experience, reflex, and hand-eye coordination. There are no deep mechanics, no strategical thinking, no challenging puzzles. It's not a Souls game, or Monster Hunter. It's not a MOBA. It's sure as hell not a strategy game. Just point and shoot.

No I am not talking about between PVP and PVE because that's too obvious there would be no discussion. I'm talking about between PVE players , the core of the game . Is there a skill gap there & how much of it . Does that make sense ? Or am I speaking broken English 

[zehne]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

pretty much 90% of its participants so far have stated there is no or hardly any skill gap in warframe.

I argued that there is definitely a skill gap.  But there is so much cheese that a bridge is formed. 

The skill gap exists but because pleb's can't recognize the difference between skill and cheese many will argue it isn't there.

For example: 

Before the ash rework you could go into a melee only sortie defense and be doing 40% of your groups damage, because you're properly chaining melee combo's and mixing them fluidly with movement.  Meanwhile an ash pressing 1 button is doing 40%. The other 'scrubs' are each doing 10% because they don't understand how to execute melee combo's and/or move fluidly while doing so.

It's obvious that you are skilled at playing melee, but only when you compare it to others who are playing melee.  When you compare it to the cheese that is pre-re-work ash you are entirely unremarkable.  Thus there is 'no skill gap' (because you only compare the end result) but at the same time there is definitely a skill gap(when you look at how each was accomplished).

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

There are time I'm playing a squishy Warframe and then I'm suddenly with 100 HP or less because I wasnt paying attention and got myself in the middle of an enemy cluster and they are not happy with me, does me being able to dodge, parkour and roll long enough to restore all my shields counts as skill?

  Reveal hidden contents

I would call that panickly flailing around tbh...

 

I think the question that I'm asking everyone is a hard one because there definitely is a skill gap .. but it's just hard to recognize. Like was you getting away to restore your shields you playing skillfully and dodging well or you just pressing two buttons wildly trying to get away. & is there even a difference between the too 

Edited March 2, 2017 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[Autongnosis]

There is more of a "knowledge gap" than there is a "skill gap". Once you have the necessary equipment the stuff that usually gives you an edge in the skill department in this kind of games can mostly be nullified through your loadout.

The difference is mostly in whether or not you actually know the various obscure mechanics that go into damage, weapons, proc interactions, skill+weapons interactions etc. The more you know, the more you can game the system given the same availeable resources (as in same mods/guns/frames etc).