Harrow feedback and discussion

[StinkyPygmy]

I'm primarily against the invulnerability. DE should know by now just how bad extended invulnerability is. What, with the whole old school blessing cheese and with Hysteria being well... Hysteria. I'm really scratching my head at that one.

You have some good points and I agree for the most part. its not so much that the head shot focus is bad, its more that his powers don't mesh very well with that play style or are implemented in ways that don't synergize well with that concept. In all I think its a decent idea with poor execution. I wont know 100% till I play it, but its not looking good from a practicality stand point.

As far as your powers go, I think they could be a tad more inventive, but I don't have any suggestions right now. i'd need to think on it. I like the direction you are going with the first power. I think having kit that focuses to some degree on the smoke he generates from his thurible both fits his priest theme and opens up some interesting options for power synergies. 

[venon23]

frame is not done yet and is not realesed yet so calm down and DE becas Explaining things is allways u know  (first time she show saryn i was like noooooo but later one yea she was fine)

[Xzenowulf]

6 minutes ago, venon23 said:

frame is not done yet and is not realesed yet so calm down and DE becas Explaining things is allways u know  (first time she show saryn i was like noooooo but later one yea she was fine)

yes but if we don't give suggestions on a different direction to take things, than the direction currently being taken is where they would likely expand/tweek upon... its much better/easier to rework a frame that is unfinished than one that is. so now is the best time to post things like this

7 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I'm primarily against the invulnerability. DE should know by now just how bad extended invulnerability is. What, with the whole old school blessing cheese and with Hysteria being well... Hysteria. I'm really scratching my head at that one.

You have some good points and I agree for the most part. its not so much that the head shot focus is bad, its more that his powers don't mesh very well with that play style or are implemented in ways that don't synergize well with that concept. In all I think its a decent idea with poor execution. I wont know 100% till I play it, but its not looking good from a practicality stand point.

As far as your powers go, I think they could be a tad more inventive, but I don't have any suggestions right now. i'd need to think on it. I like the direction you are going with the first power. I think having kit that focuses to some degree on the smoke he generates from his thurible both fits his priest theme and opens up some interesting options for power synergies. 

yeah keep in mind that these ideas came to me at 4am... im sure they could be expanded upon with better thoughts but its a start in a better direction. lol

Edited May 13, 2017 by Xzenowulf

[StinkyPygmy]

My primary issue: Extended invulnerability with no trade off is almost always bad and I'm amazed DE hasn't learnt their lesson in regards to that. His 4th is my least favorite. Its boring and sounds incredibly lazy. DE could do better.

[StinkyPygmy]

1 minute ago, Xzenowulf said:

yeah keep in mind that these ideas w\came to me at 4am... im sure they could be expanded upon with better thoughts but its a start in a better direction. lol

Of course. I know it was just a rough outline. I still think what you have suggested is in many ways more effective then the current DE seems to be taking harrow.

I'd be super keen to see a focus around his thruible and smoke. Meshing that and altering how some of his current powers work to integrate with that, thus adding more mobility to his powers, is currently where I'm thinking DE should take things.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Evanescent said:

Well he can tie enemies down for you, heal you, give you shields, give you energy, and give you buffs (possibly)....

What more do you want?

...Pretty much this in a nutshell.

I dig what I am seeing a great deal with Harrow (hoping the alt helmet is awesome). Lots of team synergy but good solo abilities that dictate pace and reward skill. 

My only gripe is that if the 4 has a cooldown with no benefits applied and no potential downsides to pressing it.

It should, imo, have a passive effect that runs after the active effects and until the 4 is used again.

Something good enough to make the player weigh the benefits of using the 4 vs the benefit of temporarily losing what ever passive the passive effect is.

For an (terrible) example: A Passive of shields being immune to abilities/conditions that would nullify or strip them completely (except nightmare modes) as well as increased shield regen rate. Using the #4 deactivates the passive until the active portions of the ability end and it's cooldown starts.  

Setups like that force a player to weigh the benefits between the active and passives while creating modding and playstyle variations between players 

For me, I need an alt helm done like a wide brimmed friar's hat, a big one hand pistol, and the destreza ("How you gonna have curly boots but no destreza for this dude at launch DE?...I am dissapointed.")

[Xzenowulf]

 

4 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I'd be super keen to see a focus around his thruible and smoke. Meshing that and altering how some of his current powers work to integrate with that, thus adding more mobility to his powers, is currently where I'm thinking DE should take things.

I had other ideas for the smoke like using it as an invisibility or making a few clones of yourself that if you took damage you would just transfer to one of them instead.. or maybe hands to grab the target.. but we kinda dont need another invisibility frame (yet?) and the clones would be interesting but ultimately a meh ability imo.. and the hands.. well... they're just like the chains really, so could visually change them out.

4 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Of course. I know it was just a rough outline. I still think what you have suggested is in many ways more effective then the current DE seems to be taking harrow.

i do like my specter horse idea... but my second and fourth power could use improvement the most... lol

[Sajochi]

 It's fine to give suggestions based on speculation,  but this is a tad overboard. At least wait until release and play him (extensively)  before calling for a full rework for a frame that isn't available yet. 

 

[IANOBW]

1 hour ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

 Yeesh, it had been a total of 18 hours since we were given a glimpse at his abilities, and we've already dived into the deep end of the doom pool. How about we wait, before we we unanimously state that Harrow will suck?

this

As per usual the community are getting way to upset about something that isn't even released yet. Speculations are cool and all but when it's all "he's gonna be useless" comments it's just a blight on the forums.

Not sure why I keep coming back here

[Evanescent]

53 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

...Pretty much this in a nutshell.

I dig what I am seeing a great deal with Harrow (hoping the alt helmet is awesome). Lots of team synergy but good solo abilities that dictate pace and reward skill. 

My only gripe is that if the 4 has a cooldown with no benefits applied and no potential downsides to pressing it.

It should, imo, have a passive effect that runs after the active effects and until the 4 is used again.

Something good enough to make the player weigh the benefits of using the 4 vs the benefit of temporarily losing what ever passive the passive effect is.

I do believe the damage absorbed is meted out as bonus crit chance/damage on headshots  buff or something, going by the Devstream Overview. The buff acts as the cooldown, as you cannot cast it again while it is active.

Edit: Quote from overview:

Casting makes you invulnerable for a short duration. Once the invulnerability ends, you will gain additional critical chance on headshots. The more damage prevented in the first phase the larger the damage bonus will be.

Quote

For an (terrible) example: A Passive of shields being immune to abilities/conditions that would nullify or strip them completely (except nightmare modes) as well as increased shield regen rate. Using the #4 deactivates the passive until the active portions of the ability end and it's cooldown starts.  

Setups like that force a player to weigh the benefits between the active and passives while creating modding and playstyle variations between players 

For me, I need an alt helm done like a wide brimmed friar's hat, a big one hand pistol, and the destreza ("How you gonna have curly boots but no destreza for this dude at launch DE?...I am dissapointed.")

I would like him to be able to charge his thurible whenever he wants and on the move, you know? So you could charge it up like Inaros out of combat or during it as you wish, and when charging you could keep moving so as to not be a sitting duck.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Evanescent

[Phyrak]

Hey there,

After watching the dev stream, harrow is certainly an interesting frame - but I find him wanting in a few areas.

1. Harrow's first skill is brilliant for shield generation and cc. I see nothing wrong here

2. Much like 1, but I think it should also grant melee attack speed too - see synergy with glaives and gain blade (broken staff too if we get that beam attack from tww)

3. Needs to have a tweak or two imo.
- given an aura that moves with Harrow along with the zoning that was shown on stream
- depending on balance issues. Grants a small amount of energy akin to energy siphon every second (ignoring toggle abilities) along with a burst of energy on headshot kills. Effected by power strength if balance allows.

4. Considering the cc that harrow needs to put out on base (ignoring sentinals), it seems odd to give a cc/support frame invulnerability...as hard cc'd foes cannot attack...

A thought to this predicament.
Toggle ability - Gain an aura that grants base line x% crit chance/damage and y% additional crit chance/damage for every enemy killed - stacking additively until a maximum crit chance/damage of z% is reached (all effected by power strength)
Given to allies in squad as seemed the case in stream (please correct me if I am wrong)

The aura also grants damage reduction (mesa strength?) to improve survival)

This change would mean that cc could continue and play into the high crit/headshot game play of Harrow.

How have you found the dev stream of Harrow?

Have you found his abilities lack luster or well done?

Which, if any abilities are in need of tweaks or changes?

Are any of the suggested changes above feasible for Harrow considering his play style?

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak

[Azamagon]

From what I've understood of his powers, here is my preemptive feedback:

Passive - Seems alright, considering his #1 giving him shields. Not much to say here.

#1 - Seems like a very good #1 skill. Don't have much to say here either.

#2 - Seems like interesting buffs here, combined with teamhealing. Sounds good. Its shieldinteraction means it plays along with his passive and #1 too, in a synergy that is perfectly natural. So far, so good.

#3 - This... seems problematic. Chargetime, while stationary? NEED to stay close to where you have charged? And then ALSO get headshotskills? Yeah, no. This seems like it's never really gonna be useful in teamplay.
Chargetime? Sure, but make him able to move while charging.
Stay close to where you finished charging? Umm, no, just make it be an aura around HARROW, instead of the "ghost" he summons.
Headshotskills? Sure, that works well with his #1, but make that the optimal way to get energy back. How about also getting TINY amounts of energy from regular kills too? EDIT: Or as @Phyrak right above me suggested: Make it grant some passive energy regen too, along with the energybursts on headshotkills. That'd make it less restrictive for sure, and would be helpful to the team regardless of headshost occuring or not (and without being Energy Vampire-levels of absurd strength)

Overall, it seems to be a little... overly restrictive.

#4 - So, tank-ability which boosts your critchance depending on how much you tank? A bit odd in mechanics, to say the least, but seems to at least be a functional ability.

 

So yeah, main concerns are definitely in regards to his #3 and a bit so towards his #4. At least I can say that I'm eager to test him out and see how he functions in practice.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Azamagon

[Xzenowulf]

9 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

 It's fine to give suggestions based on speculation,  but this is a tad overboard. At least wait until release and play him (extensively)  before calling for a full rework for a frame that isn't available yet. 

 

I dont need to play it to see obvious design flaws. And to wait till its released before calling out said flaws makes it harder change/fix. 

Sometimes you must judge by appearance and general knowledge for calling out issues.

Seriously its not hard to realise his 2 is overly situational to the point where its not going to be modded for and thus making it more situational. His 3 is too slow for most scenarios since this game is played at a very fast pace, and his 4 is just dumb cuz invincibility is lame (seriously, if they took off the invinsibility from valkyr and made it more like iron skin it'd be much better as iron skin at least takes damage) running around in god mode is pretty much cheating.

[Eathian]

Fire speed + headshot = Dread, Sybaris, Soma

[Sajochi]

4 minutes ago, Xzenowulf said:

I dont need to play it to see obvious design flaws. And to wait till its released before calling out said flaws makes it harder change/fix. 

Valid

4 minutes ago, Xzenowulf said:

 Sometimes you must judge by appearance and general knowledge for calling out issues.

Which is why we got a preview, which is subject to change during development,  and get tweaked after release. 

6 minutes ago, Xzenowulf said:

Seriously its not hard to realise his 2 is overly situational to the point where its not going to be modded for and thus making it more situational. His 3 is too slow for most scenarios since this game is played at a very fast pace, and his 4 is just dumb cuz invincibility is lame (seriously, if they took off the invinsibility from valkyr and made it more like iron skin it'd be much better as iron skin at least takes damage) running around in god mode is pretty much cheating.

You don't know if the 2 is situational or not without playing it.  His 3 could be sped up, or have some type if interaction with duration.  His invuln is on a cool down, and is meant to absorb damage to provide teamwide buffs. I wouldn't be surprised if the invuln was duration locked. 

The point is,  you're asking for a brand new set of abilities on a frame that is more or less finalized.  Suggest changes on minor annoyances, like speed, but don't suddenly call for a rework when you have no idea how the frame works from playing (interactions with weapons/other frames, how varying builds work, how each ability works on the micro scale). It's just calling something useless without any base. 

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

My thoughts:

I expected more mist or smoke during the thurible charge. The chains are cool, Frost does it better. This one is ....idk I'm alittle underwhelmed? 

[PrVonTuckIII]

2 hours ago, Xzenowulf said:

I dont need to play it to see obvious design flaws. And to wait till its released before calling out said flaws makes it harder change/fix. 

Sometimes you must judge by appearance and general knowledge for calling out issues.

 

You do realize that everyone said the exact same things about Nidus when he was first shown, right? Now look at him. Same logic here. It's flawed to base your opinions on a short, incomplete run through, because we don't know how well the final version of the abilities will function, nor their stats, nor their exact mechanics. So until we actually see the abilities for ourselves, any major complaint needs to stop, because it has no base on which to stand. Minor concerns are fine, and those will always exist, but asking for a rework before the frame even releases, based on twenty minutes of gameplay, isn't fair to anyone.

 

[Neo3602]

I don't think his ability will be as useless as people say it will be, sure it won't be the best during missions where people are running around a ton but for defense, mobile defense or survival where people are sticking together it seems like it will be pretty useful. 

[Konachibi]

Whilst I'm fine with the sound of Harrow's abilities, I am not fine with his abilities mixed with his appearance.  Harrow was meant to be a priest/exorcist style frame, and yet all his abilities, and his unique secondary, are all designed for a SNIPER frame.  Exactly how often does the local vicar go out and start shooting people in the face???

Personally they should either save those abilities for an actual sniper frame so it actually makes sense and give Harrow some 'priestly' abilities, or completely change Harrow's appearance to look like a sniper, because right now there's absolutely no consistency between what he looks like and what he can do.  Hell, these abilities would make perfect sense on Mesa, just make a male Mesa look-a-like and give him those abilities!

[Neo3602]

Just now, Konachibi said:

Whilst I'm fine with the sound of Harrow's abilities, I am not fine with his abilities mixed with his appearance.  Harrow was meant to be a priest/exorcist style frame, and yet all his abilities, and his unique secondary, are all designed for a SNIPER frame.  Exactly how often does the local vicar go out and start shooting people in the face???

Personally they should either save those abilities for an actual sniper frame so it actually makes sense and give Harrow some 'priestly' abilities, or completely change Harrow's appearance to look like a sniper, because right now there's absolutely no consistency between what he looks like and what he can do.  Hell, these abilities would make perfect sense on Mesa, just make a male Mesa look-a-like and give him those abilities!

 

To be fair when DE first showed him they said that he was a support frame that relied on high precision shooting. IMO he gives off more of an Inquisitor feel with his focus on killing with head shots ie. executing enemies. 

[GKDK]

Honestly...to be really freaking honest, I thought from his appearance he would be a cleric/priest/sorcerer frame. With blood magic or some epic new abilities.

But instead we got a deadshot frame?? hahahaha whatever. Just another frame to the pile of whatevers.

Pretty Harrowble in that aspect. But as a deadshot theme frame his abilities are alright I guess. Not enough info to really critic. That incense thing should follow him around instead of staying in an area. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by GKDK

[TankHunter678]

Not liking how headshot dependent the frame is, probably will not build him in that case.

[Konachibi]

Whilst we're here though let's talk about the elephant in the room.  Limbo.

A stasis spamming Limbo in a group with Harrow will render Harrow completely and utterly useless, because he can't get headshots if he can't shoot.

Yet another example of Stasis being a really negative effect on warframes and their abilities.

[LightningsVengance]

Oh the Devil's got a whole lot of people working on the chain gang...AKA What I thought when I saw his first ability and I like  his concept, but on his  ult could he have a summoened weapon? The Obsidian Whip thing? The one that was on his third and maybe every two kills he restores 50 health and every five kills  he restores 100 energy? Just an idea.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

I think you might be better off leaving the frame ability ideas to DE. Plus that whip he uses. It's probably the source of his abilities rather than a weapon. Makes Sense.