Harrow feedback and discussion

[Mousarchy]

ya think of the 'whip' as an essence lantern. its just burning essence to 'cleanse the unpure' and buffing him self (with all dat energy that may start to be a pain to actually get to work for those with shakey hands)

[Pie_mastyr]

also, kind of done with the whole Exalted weapon thing. It's had enough iterations now that another would just be redundant

[LightningsVengance]

Oh, well it was just an idea.  Thanks for all the positive feedback. 

[Evanescent]

I NEED MY EXALTED WEEDPOT

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I do believe the damage absorbed is meted out as bonus crit chance/damage on headshots  buff or something, going by the Devstream Overview. The buff acts as the cooldown, as you cannot cast it again while it is active.

Edit: Quote from overview:

Casting makes you invulnerable for a short duration. Once the invulnerability ends, you will gain additional critical chance on headshots. The more damage prevented in the first phase the larger the damage bonus will be.

Yeah. But that's not giving you a reason not to press 4 though. The extra damage chance is nifty, but headshots here are a little wonky as is. Increased chance for less wonky just means 4 gets pressed at need and when ever. I would rather see something that makes pressing 4 a trade-off. They can leave the current headshot buff in with it as it won't amount to much on most factions/mobs/higher levels imo.

 

5 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I would like him to be able to charge his thurible whenever he wants and on the move, you know? So you could charge it up like Inaros out of combat or during it as you wish, and when charging you could keep moving so as to not be a sitting duck.

Agreed just for the sake of avoiding the bugs/headaches associated with other abilities like this that offer no ranged protection.

 

5 hours ago, Xzenowulf said:

Seriously its not hard to realise his 2 is overly situational to the point where its not going to be modded for and thus making it more situational.

...It's supposed to be a heal (with sundry buffs) to my understanding. I want to know if it heals Harrow himself though.

5 hours ago, Xzenowulf said:

His 3 is too slow for most scenarios since this game is played at a very fast pace

Subjective...

No argument it has some potential issues

 The objective issues are that it's benefits are locked behind conditions that won't/don't/can't always be met and it's needlessly stationary. Ideally every attack would award some energy and headshots would award more. Likewise, the casting duration of the skill would ideally deflect attacks just to keep him from face-planting while trying to cast it. (Shades of old Dragoon where casting Jump was a great way to faceplant).

Let's not touch on the point that headshots aren't readily apparent to newer players on all mobs...

Pace of the game, truthfully, is largely irrelevant in this case.

If you are constantly moving you don't need the energy anyway or it replenishes naturally. If you are stationary and defending camping, etc, the range looks large enough to ensure folks see benefit if they are in range of the group.

It's current setup is more of a potential PITA due to being unwieldy than it is too slow. Maybe regular use will prove differently.

5 hours ago, Xzenowulf said:

nd his 4 is just dumb cuz invincibility is lame (seriously, if they took off the invinsibility from valkyr and made it more like iron skin it'd be much better as iron skin at least takes damage) running around in god mode is pretty much cheating.

I-phases can definitely be an issue if they are linked with lots of aoe control or damage and he doesn't have much of either.

Boosted TTK is specifically placed opposite to the I-phase in this case so it's a save tool for a support/healing class... Which is exactly as it should be. 

My only issue with it is that they offer no incentives not to use it that I can see.The headshot buff is wonky because headshots are wonky in this game to begin with.

That said, a skill like that should be a trade-off or "oh crap" button imo.

It won't be P4TW but it will likely be P4Alot (unfortunate, but consistent). Maybe DE is hoping the CD will act as the deterrent in this case.

[Asphyxxia]

IT'S FEEDBACK TIME
I mostly like his desing and abilities in general, here I'd like to talk about his passive and 3rd ability.

Passive: Harrow can have twice the max overshields.

It sounds good but the thing is, Harrow has no way of obtaining overshields and sources of overshields are very limited effectively rendering it useless

He can gain overshields with his first power but can his teammates also get some overshields?

 

Power 3: Summons a stationary specter, in range of which headshots restore energy. The longer ability is held/charged the more energy each headshot will restore.

Also sounds good but has some pros and cons.
Pros: AoE, allows for team to restore energy. Charged, can be adjusted to restore desired amounts of energy.
Cons: Requires headshots, rewards skill but otherwise completely useless. As mentioned in Devstream #92 it synergises with secondary weapon that will be shipped with Harrow that has a scope, scopes are generally for long range shooting and ability's range is fairly limited.

Proposed changes

Power 3 restores 1/5th (for example) of headshot energy restore on bodyshots. More range. Kills in AoE grant overshields based on Base Value / Power Strenght / % of Enemy Max HP + Shields /  % of Damage Dealt (suggestions, one or multiple of those). Harrow gains twice as much overshields OR allies gain 50% of original value, so time / kills required to reach max overshields is equal for all party members.

 

Please let me know what you think, discuss and share your ideas as well.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Asphyxxia
Missed some stuff in Devstream, fixed.

[Trichouette]

10 minutes ago, Asphyxxia said:

Passive: Harrow can have twice the max overshields.

It sounds good but the thing is, Harrow has no way of obtaining overshields and sources of overshields are very limited effectively rendering it useless.

Agree

Typical DE, thinking about "how neat that would be" instead of "how useful can it be"

What about "Increased fire damage from abilities" on volt, that would be neat aswell :D

 

Right now I'm more concerned about his 1st ability, it looks like "yet another broken CC with incredible range and duration", as if nidus and then octavia didn't bring enough OP CC into the game lately

Edited May 13, 2017 by Trichouette

[Elyndr]

I am pretty sure that they did not mention it on the dev stream, but if you look at when they use his 1st ability it gives him overshields.

[Undermann]

well the only way to get max overshield is with ev trin but makes no sense with him in the same team

 

he got overshield with his first skill didnt pay attention to it ?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Undermann

[Asphyxxia]

2 minutes ago, Elyndr said:

I am pretty sure that they did not mention it on the dev stream, but if you look at when they use his 1st ability it gives him overshields.

Hmm, I might have missed that. Still does not solve problem on his 3rd power.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

48 minutes ago, Asphyxxia said:

Hmm, I might have missed that. Still does not solve problem on his 3rd power.

Keep in mind that we have no ways of seeing what mods were used on the Stream, Rebecca could've used a 100/100/100/100 build for all I know.

The third ability range isn't restricted to the specter visual effect, but rather an invisible AoE zone of around 10 meters. ( Which can probably be increased ) This can be seen with the "Buff" icon that is shown when the ability is casted on the stream.

As said previously, the ability could've been unmodded, apply min/maxing to the current preview and you get something somewhat different and way more efficient.
we could quite possibly achieve 25-75 energy per headshot, this wouldn't sound like a lot in a regular PvP game, but this is a horde game, 10 headshots on trash mobs and you'll have yourself a whole 250-750 energy back set and ready to use for every ally in range.

With that in mind, you can toss Spammy-trinity aside and get yourself a CC/buffer/energy provider that actually shoots his weapon, all in one.
 

Edited May 13, 2017 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Asphyxxia]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

an invisible AoE zone of around 10 meters

It's faint but visible, still I believe that AoE should be increased. It's WIP still so might be changed / tweaked.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

we could quite possibly achieve 25-75 energy per headshot, this wouldn't sound like a lot in a regular PvP game, but this is a horde game, 10 headshots on trash mobs and you'll have yourself a whole 250-750 energy back set and ready to use for every ally in range.

Sure, it's alright. But I wouldn't mind if it also had a synergy with his passive as well.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Just now, Asphyxxia said:

It's faint but visible, still I believe that AoE should be increased. It's WIP still so might be changed / tweaked.

Sure, it's alright. But I wouldn't mind if it also had a synergy with his passive as well.

That's why I'd suggest to wait until it does come out before we start changing everything and brushing the powers as nothing.
10 meters might seem little but we have around 150%+ range worth of mod if I remember correctly. That's potentially 25 meters of almost permanent Energy gain for simply shooting down enemies in the right spot.

Nothing to say against that, first power seems good, but spamming CC to get overshield just doesn't feel so great.
I'll just wait and see what they'll do with it, once it's all tested out and it reached its maximum potential, we can start tweaking it a little bit so that it's comfortable to use.

[Tesseract7777]

The third ability looks to have relatively low base range, to be honest that is the only serious problem I see. The rest of the concerns, imo, are really more of a playstyle thing, or people missing things because they didn't explain everything properly in the stream. 

1) This ability actually gives him overshields if you watch closely. Solid, reliable cc for a (1) ability. Steve said that the chain opening them to melee finishers would be a good augment, so that could even be a thing in the future. 

2) Team healing with another frame that has affinity range for healing + more fire rate and reload speed? Yes please. Lots of ways to get back up shields quickly besides his (1), like two sentinel mods and a couple arcanes that can help out. And with shield gating coming soon, perhaps he will be the first frame where using Fast Deflection actually makes sense. 

3) This is the problem here. The effective range of the thurible looks pretty poor at base, which means at least in terms of range, EV is going to outclass it quite a lot. This ability needs a range buff right out the gate, before anyone even gets to use him. Just from watching, it is clear thurible's range is his biggest weakness.

4) Yeah, invuln isn't the best thing ever, but it is a brief invuln, where damage taken gets you a higher crit chance for headshots, from what we were told. That's actually pretty cool. Think of it like a brief iron skin/snowglobe invuln, except instead of storing damage for a bigger protective barrier, you are storing it to do horrifically damaging headshots to the enemy. This actually is a really, really neat ability. 

I am amazed at how negative so many people are being about this frames ability set, probably because I have never felt such a connection to a set of abilities. Wasn't that interested in him until I saw what he did, now I really like him. I feel like this frame was accidentally made just for me. I love charge weapons of any kind and getting headshots, I love supporting other players, keeping them alive, etc. And I have wanted a male frame that can do a decent job of supplying the team with energy for some time now. I love he is sort of like a male, more offensive form of Trinity. Not quite as good at defending others, but more aggressive with his headshot abilities. 

He is really cool and I hope they do nothing more than minor tweaks/buffs to Thurible. Overall, I really like his ability set and I don't want to see any major changes. I hope those of you insisting on big changes to his abilities do not get your way. There are lots of frames to play, they won't fit everyone's playstyle. 

Apart from the thurible range issues, stepping back from a gameplay perspective and putting my fanboying aside, I just don't see any major issues. The ability set is solid and fits/synergizes together well, without the synergies feeling too forced. 

[PsiWarp]

Upon closer inspection of the preview and from the overview, his 3rd power requires headshots that kill. Not energy back for every headshot made while range, but kills made by headshots while in range.

This really isn't going to scale well into high level, and the ability already takes too much time (even if optional) to charge up a decent return on energy investment. It is also not explained if the energy gained is per player per headshot kill or also given to allies in Affinity Range.

[Bondsmagi]

I'd  like his Specter to have Tenno Affinity range non scaling; 50 meters constant at max lvl, scaling up as it levels, lvl1-20, lvl2-35, lvl3-50.

 

Secondly I want the chains to rattle on head-shots for his 1. They talked about giving a visual confirmation and rattling chains sounds cool.

Besides that I love him and can't wait to play with him.

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Upon closer inspection of the preview and from the overview, his 3rd power requires headshots that kill. Not energy back for every headshot made while range, but kills made by headshots while in range.

This really isn't going to scale well into high level, and the ability already takes too much time (even if optional) to charge up a decent return on energy investment. It is also not explained if the energy gained is per player per headshot kill or also given to allies in Affinity Range.

Thurible could definitely use some tweaking, or at least more explanation from them. I feel like some of the things we are complaining about with thurible, are also things we are really not sure about. There are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding thurible. Based on the answers, I think it could use a decent buff.

The ability set as a whole looks really solid though. 

[Diarmut]

I was just spitballing ideas in my head after watching the most recent dev stream and Harrow's enchantments to headshots seems like it would be really great with the Dual Toxo's, I mean he's got everything for them, condemn locks down enemies for easy shots, his second increase their already slow fire rate, and gets you an easy headshot to double that, and the energy return on crucible is good for the incentivised headshots of the Dual toxo. Anyway, I was jus spitballing some ideas in my head, think fo something cool and leave it below.

[HerseyDemonKalon]

i like how harrow looks hes like a vengeful priest an alternate helmet should be in my book something like a dark paladin or maybe a kinda fallen angel thing 

 

[HerseyDemonKalon]

On 4/11/2017 at 10:00 AM, Naith said:

Dunno but I kinda get the feeling De may be running out of ideas at the moment. Nidus was good and I get the impression Octavia is as well but the theme of Octavia just seemed kind of odd to me.

Either way, awesome male mech-gundam themed frame please.

i like him the vengeful priest vibe is what i get from him 

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

9 hours ago, Konachibi said:

Whilst we're here though let's talk about the elephant in the room.  Limbo.

A stasis spamming Limbo in a group with Harrow will render Harrow completely and utterly useless, because he can't get headshots if he can't shoot.

Yet another example of Stasis being a really negative effect on warframes and their abilities.

 

Or otherside of the coin because of the obviously blind statement.

 

Limbo stasis everything Limbo harrow n co proceed to line up more head shots within an instance than wouldve been impossible otherwise

 

Limbo un-stasis

 

Blood and buffs raining from the sky

Edited May 14, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Airwolfen]

Think the Hema could work in high lvl missions (unless the buffs will only work on secondaries).

You sacrifice your shields for buffs so that will leave you shieldless. and next to that you will get a buffed up hema that does its status work faster and will supply the user with both health and energy.

[Evanescent]

7 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yeah. But that's not giving you a reason not to press 4 though. The extra damage chance is nifty, but headshots here are a little wonky as is. Increased chance for less wonky just means 4 gets pressed at need and when ever. I would rather see something that makes pressing 4 a trade-off. They can leave the current headshot buff in with it as it won't amount to much on most factions/mobs/higher levels imo.

Mmmm...with his 1, you're going to be able to tie enemies down for headshots, no? I'm thinking his gameplay is going to be to jump in there with his 4, get bonus, tie them down with his 1 and then activate 2, then go to town. You can even use 3 in there if you want energy.

I'm seeing that his 4 is going to need to be used carefully like Rhino's Ironclad charge if you want the most bang for your buck...good Harrows will use it at the most opportune moment, and this works well as a panic button in tight situations. At low levels it won't matter, but when you need the damage the tradeoff is going to be how much you can squeeze out of your damage absorption time: poor use will have you stuck with a meager buff for the cooldown. 

We are going to need to see exactly what bonuses they end up giving him and how much it scales before making any concrete statements. For some weapons that damage buff is going to help a lot.

7 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

 

Agreed just for the sake of avoiding the bugs/headaches associated with other abilities like this that offer no ranged protection.

The objective issues are that it's benefits are locked behind conditions that won't/don't/can't always be met and it's needlessly stationary. Ideally every attack would award some energy and headshots would award more. Likewise, the casting duration of the skill would ideally deflect attacks just to keep him from face-planting while trying to cast it. (Shades of old Dragoon where casting Jump was a great way to faceplant).

Let's not touch on the point that headshots aren't readily apparent to newer players on all mobs...

On that point, I don't think he will be a frame for newer player, regardless of the indication issues.

7 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Pace of the game, truthfully, is largely irrelevant in this case.

If you are constantly moving you don't need the energy anyway or it replenishes naturally. If you are stationary and defending camping, etc, the range looks large enough to ensure folks see benefit if they are in range of the group.

It's current setup is more of a potential PITA due to being unwieldy than it is too slow. Maybe regular use will prove differently.

I-phases can definitely be an issue if they are linked with lots of aoe control or damage and he doesn't have much of either.

Boosted TTK is specifically placed opposite to the I-phase in this case so it's a save tool for a support/healing class... Which is exactly as it should be. 

My only issue with it is that they offer no incentives not to use it that I can see.The headshot buff is wonky because headshots are wonky in this game to begin with.

That said, a skill like that should be a trade-off or "oh crap" button imo.

It won't be P4TW but it will likely be P4Alot (unfortunate, but consistent). Maybe DE is hoping the CD will act as the deterrent in this case.

I think so too. Bringing up Rhino again, you can spam his IC charge a lot but you will end up with wildly fluctuating armor values and wasting a lot of energy. It is better to wait and use it at the optimal moment, which is what players do. This could work in the same way.

Imagine if that bonus was additive tho. 

[Evanescent]

5 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Think the Hema could work in high lvl missions (unless the buffs will only work on secondaries).

You sacrifice your shields for buffs so that will leave you shieldless. and next to that you will get a buffed up hema that does its status work faster and will supply the user with both health and energy.

I guess you're thinking rage for energy? Depending on his stats he may or may not be able to take hits.

On topic:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Could be absolutely insane.

[StabbyTentacles]

8 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Think the Hema could work in high lvl missions (unless the buffs will only work on secondaries).

You sacrifice your shields for buffs so that will leave you shieldless. and next to that you will get a buffed up hema that does its status work faster and will supply the user with both health and energy.

Sounds good, hope Devs think beyond secondaries.