Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Fine, i'll bite once more but only because this is a public forum and because i'm a bit bored.

First off i want to get the simple fact out that making "sound arguments" is exhausting when discussing with you. I've explained to you several times and showed you even a proof video regarding that synoid simulor and all you had to say was:

...without any proofs whatsoever. Just a simple "No i don't listen to you! I'm right! You are wrong!". You said i don't even get why it's very much viable. Maybe it's because i'm not deluded and actually TEST my stuff? Hell, you still have the same very few kills and xp on synoid simulor than 3 weeks ago. No wonder you don't know what you're talking about.

Let me be generous and explain it to you:

You are telling that what they spout makes no sense. Being condescending to no end. But the thing is, you aren't better. You are exactly what you have described the OP in the upper quote. I don't have to mention the simulor thing again i guess, so i'm gonna skip that. What is strong cc for you? Something that any weapon can do with 2 elements? Making enemies sometimes attack other enemies instead of you? (which is unreliable). Reckoning, which only has 21.75m range with stretch and 1 second casting animation. What about that sniper, corpus tech or napalm, shooting at you from 25m away? Strong CC? Okay then. Sorry, for doubting you. I'd have called things like stomp, larva, divine spears, stasis, freeze, sleep, blind or even charm "strong cc" but that's just me. I probably have to learn the game first.

Also regarding all these countless ad hominems and insults (hmm, who is "salty" again?), i suggest to take a look at:

https://forums.warframe.com/guidelines/

It helps, no kidding.

Last but not least, i want to agree with a statement of you about me:

Thanks. I love my crit-riven boosted slash-crit procing miter and my crit-gas procing akstilettos. So don't worry about me mate :)

Now with that out of the way, if you want to have an actual and meaningful discussion, then by all means go for it. Just please don't lie and then act like you're all smart and then insulting others instead of being constructive.

K, fine. Next one:

I don't want to disagree with your overall stance regarding oberon, in fact, i understand you. But i have to say that this argument is pretty weak and nonsensical. The above posters have covered it already and explained why so i won't repeat it. But i gotta say, renewal is not making you a tank. It makes you take a hit or two and then recover when dodged,which is nice but it definitely doesn't make you tanky. Not even talking about simulacrum levels. Void Mot is already tearing through him.

so you wanted proof that status scales better than damage? you do realize that video you showed didnt had viral procs in that weapon right? do i really have to explain what viral procs do? so yeah you still dont get that if youre asking for "proof" about how viral procs basically half an enemies health. sorry i thought you knew what these status procs do. guess i was wrong.

youre claiming its not viable, how is that any logical when even the most crap tier of weapons can be sortie viable and the status monster which is the current simulor is?there isnt many weapons that can proc so many different things in an aoe as quickly as it does. and it solely only suffers against armor just like every weapon out there. youre claiming its "unviable" while it very much is solely for its status.

and what does my personal simulor usage has anything to do with it? i didnt used the weapon that much before the change either. i dont have to play a weapon for thousands of missions to see what its good for and whatnot. warframe isnt a difficult game. 

yeah im the only one projecting on others in any of the arguments ive ever been in. you brought up your idea, i disagreed and you called me "delusional" for bringing it up. thats not condensending tho for sure. nor actually bringing up topics that are irrelevant to the thread just to strike my arguments against someone else who makes absolutely zero sense. totally not witch hunting or anything. 

oberon's cc potential is strong when you consider other utilities he brings to the play. hes a jack of all trades frame for a reason. his cc is strong for everything else he already has in his kit simultenaously. and since his ult doesnt do a los check you got no reason to be out in the open eating a sniper bullet. oh also please let me know when a weapon with two elements can get his ults aoe while stripping armor too. 

akstilettos are crit viable, so idk what are you trying to accomplish with that useless sarcasm. and hf with the bandaided miter.

if you really get bothered me so much to keep all this salt just add me on the block list, save us both time.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

so you wanted proof that status scales better than damage? you do realize that video you showed didnt had viral procs in that weapon right? do i really have to explain what viral procs do? so yeah you still dont get that if youre asking for "proof" about how viral procs basically half an enemies health. sorry i thought you knew what these status procs do. guess i was wrong.

youre claiming its not viable, how is that any logical when even the most crap tier of weapons can be sortie viable and the status monster which is the current simulor is?there isnt many weapons that can proc so many different things in an aoe as quickly as it does. and it solely only suffers against armor just like every weapon out there. youre claiming its "unviable" while it very much is solely for its status.

and what does my personal simulor usage has anything to do with it? i didnt used the weapon that much before the change either. i dont have to play a weapon for thousands of missions to see what its good for and whatnot. warframe isnt a difficult game. 

yeah im the only one projecting on others in any of the arguments ive ever been in. you brought up your idea, i disagreed and you called me "delusional" for bringing it up. thats not condensending tho for sure. nor actually bringing up topics that are irrelevant to the thread just to strike my arguments against someone else who makes absolutely zero sense. totally not witch hunting or anything. 

oberon's cc potential is strong when you consider other utilities he brings to the play. hes a jack of all trades frame for a reason. his cc is strong for everything else he already has in his kit simultenaously. and since his ult doesnt do a los check you got no reason to be out in the open eating a sniper bullet. oh also please let me know when a weapon with two elements can get his ults aoe while stripping armor too. 

akstilettos are crit viable, so idk what are you trying to accomplish with that useless sarcasm. and hf with the bandaided miter.

if you really get bothered me so much to keep all this salt just add me on the block list, save us both time.

Ya know maybe zenistar?

[Zeclem]

16 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Might as well compare a Rhino Stomp to a buffing equinox with these calls. EV is not made for healing, and a bless trinity with Arcane Aura helmet and the Ack and Brunt + synergizing with link whoops oberon back to low level missions. Oberon's forces synergy is not even practical, and is not as efficient as a trinity (even hybrid trin). Oberon is far from a bad frame (lol zephyr), but he is far from replacing a trinity.

im not saying he'd replace trin. nothing can replace trin really. i was saying ev trin's buffing(again, not bless since op started his argument with what ev trin has over oberon) to oberons buffing. ev trin doesnt have any kind of useable buffing for her team, oberon has armor buff and status cleanse(which is rather situational i'll agree). and wat was zenistar for?

Edited May 9, 2017 by Zeclem

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

im not saying he'd replace trin. nothing can replace trin really. i was saying ev trin's buffing(again, not bless) to oberons buffing. ev trin doesnt have any kind of useable buffing for her team, oberon has armor buff and status cleanse(which is rather situational i'll agree).

EV is not a buff and is still more useful than oberons buffs. Armor? I bet banshee with steel fiber gets more. Status cleansing? Why does that matter when you have damage reduction of 75%...

[Zeclem]

Just now, --Q--Voltage said:

EV is not a buff and is still more useful than oberons buffs. Armor? I bet banshee with steel fiber gets more. Status cleansing? Why does that matter when you have damage reduction of 75%...

well idk 360 armor is quite a large amount. and i didnt even max out my power str on oberon. and that damage reduction, in an ev build will stay for like what? 2 seconds or something? armor stayed for quite a while last time ive checked.

[aligatorno]

7 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

EV is not a buff and is still more useful than oberons buffs. Armor? I bet banshee with steel fiber gets more. Status cleansing? Why does that matter when you have damage reduction of 75%...

Well, you`d lose that bet really hard. Base armor gain is 200 and since it's affected by power strength it can reach upwards to 700. .

Edited May 9, 2017 by aligatorno

[Tesseract7777]

I think Scott has already moved on. 

[FelixGrief]

53 minutes ago, Wrum said:

fair points but i'm still not clear on the issue with HG shape or spawn position. why does it matter if it spawns directly in front of you or around you?

 

Hallowed Ground is currently cone shaped. This means that if you jump/move too high beyond a certain point, you will no longer receive the buffs you're supposed to receive on Hallowed Ground. HG should be made into a circle (or more accurately a cylinder) so that you can jump/stand on top of objects and still receive the buffs. Currently, HG considers the X and Y axis, but not the Z axis.

It matters where HG spawns because in addition to being inconsistent and annoying, it could literally save your team's lives. Imagine if you found a perfect place to set up a Frost bubble, and instead of surrounding you, it moves forward 5 feet so that you're on the very edge of it.The result is that you end up needing to place TWO bubbles to cover the area where the first should have initially.

[(PSN)CaptainIMalik]

50+ plus more armor added.

[peterc3]

23 minutes ago, FelixGrief said:

Hallowed Ground is currently cone shaped. This means that if you jump/move too high beyond a certain point, you will no longer receive the buffs you're supposed to receive on Hallowed Ground. HG should be made into a circle (or more accurately a cylinder) so that you can jump/stand on top of objects and still receive the buffs. Currently, HG considers the X and Y axis, but not the Z axis.

It matters where HG spawns because in addition to being inconsistent and annoying, it could literally save your team's lives. Imagine if you found a perfect place to set up a Frost bubble, and instead of surrounding you, it moves forward 5 feet so that you're on the very edge of it.The result is that you end up needing to place TWO bubbles to cover the area where the first should have initially.

The ability is called Hallowed Ground, not Hallowed Cylinder. You get the buffs by standing on Hallowed Ground. If you aren't standing on it, why would you get the buffs?

[MirageKnight]

34 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think Scott has already moved on. 

Indeed. Reminds me of how he simultaneously buffed and nerfed Braton Prime and left it in its current state - with decent stats but with way below average ammo reserves for an assault rifle despite outcries from the community...he then proceeded to ignore everyone and move on. Even before the tweaks to Braton Prime, players were pleading for months "When is Braton Prime getting buffed??" When prodded on the Dev streams about that, Scott would just roll his eyes and say "Yeah, I'm going to look at the Braton Prime soon..."

It's like he hates truly buffing things that need it.

[Tesseract7777]

15 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Indeed. Reminds me of how he simultaneously buffed and nerfed Braton Prime and left it in its current state - with decent stats but with way below average ammo reserves for an assault rifle despite outcries from the community...he then proceeded to ignore everyone and move on. Even before the tweaks to Braton Prime, players were pleading for months "When is Braton Prime getting buffed??" When prodded on the Dev streams about that, Scott would just roll his eyes and say "Yeah, I'm going to look at the Braton Prime soon..."

It's like he hates truly buffing things that need it.

I think it's also like a sensitive artist thing tbh. He does these reworks and he thinks its his masterpiece. And he is very reluctant to change anything beyond the slightest stat tweak, and only if it is proven to be absolutely huge issue (like the way smite was doing damage immediately after the rework, or wasn't, might be a better way to put it). He doesn't want to mess with his masterpiece, he thinks he did it right the first time, and doesn't want to revisit it. 

I am still frustrated over Vauban. Was complaining about my main needing updating since he is such an old frame, Bastille no overshadows the rest of his kit, Bounce is pointless with parkour 2.0, Vortex has been nerfed so many times, Bastille has been nerfed over the years, Tesla was never very useful, and has really wonky duration mechanics. He needed some REAL updating. 

What does DE do? Well, they hear that "Bounce" is a problem, because parkour 2.0 makes it irrelevant in some ways, but some people still like it for controlling terminals and such. So they leave Bounce, but don't buff it to make it more relevant for actually bouncing you with parkour 2.0. Not only that, but instead of simply fixing Bounce to make it relevant with the new game mechanics, or replace it, they just added three new abilities that add their own problems and inconsistencies to his kit, and are still not that useful and overshadowed by Bastille. 

But according to Scott at the time "his abilities were fine". So yeah, I'm still pretty bitter about that, but I have given up on getting through to him on stuff like this. I've done the internet equivalent of feedbacking myself until I go hoarse trying to explain why Vauban needs a real look, but instead they just gave him new powers that added new problems and called it a day. 

[Ironlixivium]

Overall, love it, 80 e seems a little strong though even with the downsides. Maybe make it 5 pulses of 10? Half is fair considering you can simply sit next to the closest enemy. Also, efficiency is a thing, so you could gain 3.2x what you lost potentially. I also think it's important to remember that Oberon must adaquately fill a hole between two or more existing classes without making any classes obsolete through simple convenience. E.G. you can't have the best of both worlds, you need to have just enough of both worlds.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, InsanityKey said:

1 target is still CC

This was funny.  CC is short for Crowd Control.  One single enemy, person, or thing can never be a crowd of anything.  Now with this bit of knowledge, how can controlling one target be Crowd Control when it's not controlling a crowd.  

[Jobistober]

I feel most of the arguments against Oberon at this point are pure hyperbole.

Hallowed ground grants status immunity or major resistance from elemental and physical damage procs, knockdowns and grapple pulls. It even completely negates ancient auras. Sounds pretty useful to me in most situations. People say he's garbage and totally overlook these qualities... I just don't get it.

[MirageKnight]

21 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think it's also like a sensitive artist thing tbh. He does these reworks and he thinks its his masterpiece. And he is very reluctant to change anything beyond the slightest stat tweak, and only if it is proven to be absolutely huge issue (like the way smite was doing damage immediately after the rework, or wasn't, might be a better way to put it). He doesn't want to mess with his masterpiece, he thinks he did it right the first time, and doesn't want to revisit it. 

Then he should have no business being in charge of balancing things if his ego is THAT fragile and he's THAT stubborn.

As someone that's worked on a couple of mods and that's been in charge of balancing said mods, you have to listen to your fanbase and not take feedback and criticism so personally.

Edited May 9, 2017 by MirageKnight

[HolicErsa]

lol this zeclem dude, he is arguing with something he agrees on jesus... and he keeps boasting about his inteligence and cannot comprehend that he is arguing with nothing.

"you cant say a frame is a tank just cus of its mods cus the mod applies in some proportions to every other frame"

"4. You don't seem to understand what "proportional" means.  So let me try to help you with a simple math problem. If I have a 1:4 ratio, and I increase both numbers by 100%, that gives me a 2:8 ratio.  What does that break down to?  Wow.  1:4.  They're both PROPORTIONALLY the same.  Yes they're bigger but as far as determining what role each frame fits into, it's not going to change."

"I know, and I'm not saying you're not allowed to use mods or whatever.  But you can't use them to say your frame is a tank, because then I can slap them on every other frame and they're all proportionally the same as they were without the mods.  The point of tanks is that they inherently have the ability to stay in the fight longer."

all he is saying that no matter if you equip a squishy frame with tank mods is not going to make them into tanks.

and he is not wrong to say that mods affect the frames in the same way.

15x2.1 = 31.5
600x2.1 = 1260

both frames are affected by the same multiplier.

Edited May 9, 2017 by HolicErsa

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Then he should have no business being in charge of balancing things if his ego is THAT fragile and he's THAT stubborn.

As someone that's worked on a couple of mods and that's been in charge of balancing said mods, you have to listen to your fanbase and not take feedback and criticism so personally.

Think you missed the point there bud, its not a question of ego, its like telling picaso to paint mona lisa without his trademark. Scott changes thing with an intended goal and pestering him won't help.

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

23 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This was funny.  CC is short for Crowd Control.  One single enemy, person, or thing can never be a crowd of anything.  Now with this bit of knowledge, how can controlling one target be Crowd Control when it's not controlling a crowd.  

Gamming term: CC -->> Generally applied to anything that *Aherm* fudges anyone over by causing said target or targets to be left unable to preform a multitude of actions based on the effect applied for a duration of time.

Examples of CC's: Silences, slows, stuns, knock-backs, knockdowns, sleep, paralysis, snares, roots, etc.

_____________________________________________________________________

Most common terms derive from somewhere from some game; but do fancy me what do you call a stun in general terms that being the stun in question could be able to stun multiple targets or one target without specification.

Edited May 9, 2017 by AlphaTheFinalBalance

[DatDarkOne]

9 minutes ago, AlphaTheFinalBalance said:

Gamming term: CC -->> Generally applied to anything that *Aherm* fudges anyone over by causing said target or targets to be left unable to preform a multitude of actions based on the effect applied for a duration of time.

Examples of CC's: Silences, slows, stuns, knock-backs, knockdowns, sleep, paralysis, snares, roots, etc.

_____________________________________________________________________

Most common terms derive from somewhere from some game; but do fancy me what do you call a stun in general terms that being the stun in question could be able to stun multiple targets or one target without specification.

I think you need to re-read what I said again.  What I was pointing out that you might have missed is the following.  Any ability that only effects one single target can not be logically called Crowd Control because of the simple fact that one (single) is not many (crowd).  This is common sense logic and not some one trying to change the logical real world  meaning of a word or term.  

I will offer an example.  A sniper rifle can not be considered a CC weapon.  Whereas a grenade launcher like the Tonkor can.  

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I think you need to re-read what I said again.  What I was pointing out that you might have missed is the following.  Any ability that only effects one single target can not be logically called Crowd Control because of the simple fact that one (single) is not many (crowd).  This is common sense logic and not some one trying to change the logical real world  meaning of a word or term.  

I will offer an example.  A sniper rifle can not be considered a CC weapon.  Whereas a grenade launcher like the Tonkor can.  

Bro I'm talking in general terms in gamming not warframe specifically. a single target stun is still a CC

Edited May 9, 2017 by AlphaTheFinalBalance

[Kyronz]

Oberon's rework made him perfectly viable for low level missions, which of course he already was.   

I am not seeing what they were going for with his rework, it really did not do much, if anything to help him.  

[HolicErsa]

on topic now, i do agree that oberon should have dropped the whole radiation theme and completely rework around his nature paladin theme, like titania has her own theme.

His 4 ability could be roots lifting enemys around him and killed enemys would drop healing orbs or maybe rooting and disarming enemies.
the 2 could have the equinox aoe effect and be related to water that follows oberon slowing enemies and preventing allies getting status effect and giving armour.
3 is fine as it is it fits on the roll of the paladin buffer and his 1 could be life orb that chains on enemies or allies if it chains on enemies it increases the damage they take and on death drop energy orbs if used on allies give them a 0.5% life leech on melee attacks, (augment?) decrease the damage they take slightly.
 

nonetheless the changes we got for oberon are good QOL, just wish they would completely overhaul his theme.
but it feels like DE doesnt have much spare time for all this kind of change so they just slightly touch them and send them on their way(had same thoughts for ash "rework")
since they are working on content really hard now, who knows maybe in the future when we get an "end" to the story they can focus on mechanics.

 

[(PSN)forChristsake]

Funny thing is I forgot about a coming rework and was putting forma on him last night. Gave him all radiation  status weapons and did him up in vault-tec colors. Was having fun with him too. You're forgetting the most important stat....wait for it....FUN!

[Wrum]

or just make it not affect things like the shadows.