Design Council Challenge Discussion and Feedback

[MarshallBanana0815]

1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

* might have

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

5 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

Please, Danielle, you think I didn't see that Uggie Juggie comin'? ;) 

EDIT: Lemme just clear somethin' up, this should just be taken that I had a gut feeling they would pull some sort of wild card without saying anything... Damn, you can't joke about anything anymore.

Edited May 1, 2017 by (XB1)ALG Minuscule36

[Zahnrad]

1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

After reading through the thread we're seeing a lot of praise for this past Friday's Council alert with equal amounts of concern and frustration. Some of you enjoyed the fight and surprise Juggernaut at the end, others not so much. In contrast to the traditional Gift From the Lotus alert, the Council Challenge should make you sweat a bit (I know I did, "palms sweaty, moms spaghetti" style). As its title suggests, it is a challenge after-all.

That said, we're seeing a lot of unfair blame placed on the Design Council. For transparency sake, the procedure of the Council Challenges goes as follows: Design Council members are given a restricted and specific list of conditions to vote on. Once the poll has closed, the top voted conditions are used to create the alert. The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

At the end of the day, we're happy to see that you're interested in discussing the alerts because it gives us a better idea of how to proceed with them moving forward. Thank you for your feedback as always! 

I wouldn't mind getting a random riven of any type from challenges.

[Azamagon]

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Danielle said:

After reading through the thread we're seeing a lot of praise for this past Friday's Council alert with equal amounts of concern and frustration. Some of you enjoyed the fight and surprise Juggernaut at the end, others not so much. In contrast to the traditional Gift From the Lotus alert, the Council Challenge should make you sweat a bit (I know I did, "palms sweaty, moms spaghetti" style). As its title suggests, it is a challenge after-all.

That said, we're seeing a lot of unfair blame placed on the Design Council. For transparency sake, the procedure of the Council Challenges goes as follows: Design Council members are given a restricted and specific list of conditions to vote on. Once the poll has closed, the top voted conditions are used to create the alert. The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

At the end of the day, we're happy to see that you're interested in discussing the alerts because it gives us a better idea of how to proceed with them moving forward. Thank you for your feedback as always! 

Thanks for taking off some of the heat from the DC, much appreciated.

Also, while I certainly enjoyed the challenge with Juggernaut, please consider this BIG issue with Juggernaut:

On 2017-04-30 at 6:33 PM, Azamagon said:

I honestly thought it was an interesting idea of a challenge with the juggernaut at the end...

... however ...

Juggernaut is honestly a REALLY unfairly designed boss, with the absolute biggest problem being the spikes. No, I don't even care that it oneshots you. The fact that it pierces all solid walls is not good either, but it's STILL not its biggest problem with them. So, what is it then?
The biggest problem with the spikes is the hitbox of those spikes. I mean seriously, you can dodge them, visually by several meters, yet you STILL get hit! That's just absolute bullfeces, seriously (Has flashbacks of Dota 2's Shadow Fiend's ultimate and its way out of visual hitbox *shudders*)

Graphics of attacks have to coincide with hitboxes MUCH better in a game like this. ESPECIALLY when the attack are from our enemies. If they don't, well, what do you expect? Of course we do the same right back to it: We will resort to cheese the cheesy boss...

Now THAT said, it was perfectly doable without cheese, if you were a team. Getting downed is then not such a biggie. But solo, without cheese tactics? Good luck! :)

Due to this unfair design, cheesy tactics is what people then resort to. Solve the Juggernaut being unfair, then you'd see less people complaining (at least then they have no REAL excuse anymore, excessive damagesponge aside)

[Kurienno]

I honestly enjoyed the surprise and unexpectedness of it (more of which I think would be fantastic for the game to break up monotony) 

Please don't feel obligated to bring down the difficulty of these missions, the normal one should be enough for them and the challenge ones are what you say "challenges". Unexpected conditions and encounters are part of the fun of it, I want to see more of this in Warframe. Like you said, on any other day a lv100 Infested Defense is a bit of a cakewalk (which really shouldn't be the case I might add). Continue adding these types of conditions for those of us seeking a bit more fun and surprise as opposed to 'well, let's just get this mission over with' because we know we pretty much will win. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Vindicative

[Drufo]

The idea was nice. The problem was that the Juggernaut as an enemy is a bit broken. Being almost invulnerable unless you hit his little vulnerable spots that appear only when he is starting an attack (that can oneshot most warframes) makes fighting him with melee a hell. Not counting that his attacks are hard to dodge because of extreme range and punch-through. And even abilities such as Magnetize last only a few seconds, so in the end there were only a few metas to win the fight.

[Drufo]

2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

-snip-

The idea was nice. The problem was that the Juggernaut as an enemy is a bit broken. Being almost invulnerable unless you hit his little vulnerable spots that appear only when he is starting an attack (that can oneshot most warframes) makes fighting him with melee-only a hell. Not counting that his attacks are hard to dodge because of extreme range and punch-through. And even abilities such as Magnetize last only a few seconds, so in the end there were only a few metas to win the fight, making it very frustrating to anyone who don't use those metas.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Drufo

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Please, Danielle, you think we didn't see that Uggie Juggie comin'? ;) 

Not helping.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Just now, MagPrime said:

Not helping.

Hm?

[MagPrime]

16 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Hm?

=.=

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

=.=

Just tell me dude, I'm not a mind reader.

[(PSN)RedDeviL1085]

1 hour ago, Vindicative said:

I honestly enjoyed the surprise and unexpectedness of it (more of which I think would be fantastic for the game to break up monotony) 

Please don't feel obligated to bring down the difficulty of these missions, the normal one should be enough for them and the challenge ones are what you say "challenges". Unexpected conditions and encounters are part of the fun of it, I want to see more of this in Warframe. Like you said, on any other day a lv100 Infested Defense is a bit of a cakewalk (which really shouldn't be the case I might add). Continue adding these types of conditions for those of us seeking a bit more fun and surprise as opposed to 'well, let's just get this mission over with' because we know we pretty much will win. 

I wholeheartedly agree with Vindicative's statement.

My sole problem was that a host migration occurring after the Juggernaut spawned would cause the last wave to restart, including a 2nd Juggernaut spawn, once the first Jugg was killed. 

[Chroia]

2 hours ago, Vindicative said:

on any other day a lv100 Infested Defense is a bit of a cakewalk (which really shouldn't be the case I might add).

This is due to how defense spawns work.    

Heavies come at the end of the wave - as opposed to sprinkled throughout - and in very limited numbers, which wastes most of their auras' potential.
Had it been a level 100 surv, things would've been much more difficult.

[W01fe]

4 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

After reading through the thread we're seeing a lot of praise for this past Friday's Council alert with equal amounts of concern and frustration. Some of you enjoyed the fight and surprise Juggernaut at the end, others not so much. In contrast to the traditional Gift From the Lotus alert, the Council Challenge should make you sweat a bit (I know I did, "palms sweaty, moms spaghetti" style). As its title suggests, it is a challenge after-all.

That said, we're seeing a lot of unfair blame placed on the Design Council. For transparency sake, the procedure of the Council Challenges goes as follows: Design Council members are given a restricted and specific list of conditions to vote on. Once the poll has closed, the top voted conditions are used to create the alert. The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

At the end of the day, we're happy to see that you're interested in discussing the alerts because it gives us a better idea of how to proceed with them moving forward. Thank you for your feedback as always! 

 

im more worried about the reward for the effort/challenge.

many players who can beat such a thing have a lot of catalysts already, people who cant beat it dont feel adequately rewarded for helping out, and the only issue with the surprise juggernaught is its really only beatable in some specific ways.  My loki frame was useless as i couldnt damage it and switch teleport couldnt cheese it (not saying you should let loki cheese it though lol).  so i basically became the invisible reviver for my team.  we beat it second try once someone switched to valkyr.  

I would have liked a good mod or a permanent blueprint for the challenge.  honestly.  Something that veterans could sell for plat and newer players could get real long term use out of.

literally my only gripe <3

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

12 minutes ago, W01fe said:

 

im more worried about the reward for the effort/challenge.

many players who can beat such a thing have a lot of catalysts already, people who cant beat it dont feel adequately rewarded for helping out, and the only issue with the surprise juggernaught is its really only beatable in some specific ways.  My loki frame was useless as i couldnt damage it and switch teleport couldnt cheese it (not saying you should let loki cheese it though lol).  so i basically became the invisible reviver for my team.  we beat it second try once someone switched to valkyr.  

I would have liked a good mod or a permanent blueprint for the challenge.  honestly.  Something that veterans could sell for plat and newer players could get real long term use out of.

literally my only gripe <3

Not my only gripe, but a better reward would definitely have encouraged me to equip a cheeseframe and go back for a second try. 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Just tell me dude, I'm not a mind reader.

Based on the context of what you quoted from Danielle, the posts spread out within the thread, and what they said in response to what you said, I think it's quite clear that making jokes about seeing a Juggernaut coming isn't going to help people perceive the Design Council any better than they have been the past few days.

The implication that people knew a high level infested alert would spawn him is only going to sow seeds of, "they voted this knowing that DE would pull that trick."

[DaftMeat]

I ran this with a Public group, and most of the complaints came from Tenno trying to face-tank the Juggernaut. Why that Volt with Obex thought that standing in front of its face and just punching when it was throwing spines was a good idea, I will never know. After the Volt rage-quit, we had a Limbo in Rift drawing attention, an Oberon spamming Smite, and myself on Rhino using Roar and operator beam and Stomp when it reared up. It took a while but eventually, the three of us took him out.

 

Warframe isn't a strategy-heavy game, and that's the problem. So many players have maxed Serration, Redirection, Vitality, and a 6 Forma crit weapon etc., and they believe that is all they need to succeed in Warframe. And 90% of the time, they're right. However, at times like this, you actually have to do something other than just spam your weapon or power button.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

29 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Based on the context of what you quoted from Danielle, the posts spread out within the thread, and what they said in response to what you said, I think it's quite clear that making jokes about seeing a Juggernaut coming isn't going to help people perceive the Design Council any better than they have been the past few days.

The implication that people knew a high level infested alert would spawn him is only going to sow seeds of, "they voted this knowing that DE would pull that trick."

Oh, then it was taken differently than what I meant XD I just expect them to do that kind of stuff, that's what I meant to portray. I didn't know they would, but I had a gut feeling they'd pull some sort of wild card.

My bad.

[Arezael]

21 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Endgame missions/challenge, yeah stomp endgame,  the 'stomp' challenge.

Read my post again, then quote the part where I use the words: "Endgame", "Challenge".

I actually just went and completed an infested alert, by using an infested frame. Who would have thought, right?

Carry on making assumptions about my post if you'd like, it's clear you missed the point and could have simply just asked instead of assuming.

 

 

[StabbyTentacles]

5 hours ago, Loobiz said:

For all of those saying "do this do that". Yes, we (at least I) know the alert was possible, we did it, we got the potato. It was also freaking boring, 20 minutes dealing low damage until it dies. That is not a challange, that is boring.

Bingo!

Saying you didn't 'like' the challenge in no way means we don't like a challenge. it might be as simple to understand as: Give us some tasks that do involve combat in an exciting dynamic/compelling context...

Don't simply inflate a bullet sponge with legitimate/existing, questionable/debatable gameplay mechanics: shooting through walls, shooting in one direction killing squad out of fire... ect

Ultimately cheesing any challenge, kinda makes the entire point of the challenge unproductive/meaningless. 

Also nice way of forcing players to use their totally ninja 'operators.' #My Warframe is strong.   #I'd like to play Warframe, you know, with my Warframe

**As an option, for those who  Operators, kudos.

[ENGINEEEEER]

The alert was fine. The problem is juggernauts are poorly implemented. They ignore a large amount of abilities and mechanics and continue the trend of poor armor scaling and (near) invulnerability phases

[Rolunde]

10 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I wouldn't mind getting a random riven of any type from challenges.

Sure, Rivens are the gift that keeps on giving. ;)

But... even if it were for a Riven I have no doubt that there would be some that would complain with:
"but I don't need/want anymore rivens, I'm riven capped." "I don't like rivens."
or even better "DE promoting Rivens to get us to spend moar plats >.< "  that's always a golden chestnut!

7 hours ago, DaftMeat said:

I ran this with a Public group, and most of the complaints came from Tenno trying to face-tank the Juggernaut. Why that Volt with Obex thought that standing in front of its face and just punching when it was throwing spines was a good idea, I will never know. After the Volt rage-quit, we had a Limbo in Rift drawing attention, an Oberon spamming Smite, and myself on Rhino using Roar and operator beam and Stomp when it reared up. It took a while but eventually, the three of us took him out.

 

Warframe isn't a strategy-heavy game, and that's the problem. So many players have maxed Serration, Redirection, Vitality, and a 6 Forma crit weapon etc., and they believe that is all they need to succeed in Warframe. And 90% of the time, they're right. However, at times like this, you actually have to do something other than just spam your weapon or power button.

 

re: that Volt. I imagine if you could ask him the response would have been "it always works against level 30 juggernots" 

But yeah, maybe time for Juggy to get a little bit of a rework.

Fair but challenging, good times.

Auto-tracking insta-gib, not as much fun.

I think if people actually bother to try and take cover and break LoS for a change, they should be rewarded, haha.

~R~

[CoffeeMonster42]

2 hours ago, Rolunde said:

Sure, Rivens are the gift that keeps on giving. ;)

But... even if it were for a Riven I have no doubt that there would be some that would complain with:
"but I don't need/want anymore rivens, I'm riven capped." "I don't like rivens."
or even better "DE promoting Rivens to get us to spend moar plats >.< "  that's always a golden chestnut!

re: that Volt. I imagine if you could ask him the response would have been "it always works against level 30 juggernots" 

But yeah, maybe time for Juggy to get a little bit of a rework.

Fair but challenging, good times.

Auto-tracking insta-gib, not as much fun.

I think if people actually bother to try and take cover and break LoS for a change, they should be rewarded, haha.

~R~

Through walls as well

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

4 hours ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

The alert was fine. The problem is juggernauts are poorly implemented. They ignore a large amount of abilities and mechanics and continue the trend of poor armor scaling and (near) invulnerability phases

Hence the name, interestingly enough.

[DSpite]

11 hours ago, W01fe said:

 

im more worried about the reward for the effort/challenge.

many players who can beat such a thing have a lot of catalysts already, people who cant beat it dont feel adequately rewarded for helping out, and the only issue with the surprise juggernaught is its really only beatable in some specific ways.  My loki frame was useless as i couldnt damage it and switch teleport couldnt cheese it (not saying you should let loki cheese it though lol).  so i basically became the invisible reviver for my team.  we beat it second try once someone switched to valkyr.  

I would have liked a good mod or a permanent blueprint for the challenge.  honestly.  Something that veterans could sell for plat and newer players could get real long term use out of.

literally my only gripe <3

That's basically the direction I approached that mission from.

I don't automatically shove Catalysts into everything, as I can't use everything I have, as I keep everything, and test out weapons to see which ones I like the mechanics of, THEN put Catalysts/Forma etc, so I have like a stockpile of 30+ Catalysts.

My gripe was getting to the Juggernaught and then having more or less to go read a Wiki entry to remember what I would need to do to en enemy that has now scaled beyond normal mechanics. If I had known in advance, I would of not brought my normal "fun and entertainment build" to the mission and brought an "anti-Juggernaut build specifically", the point here is that the "Infested Melee" was NOT the mission, the Jugg was, and the melee was just a delaying tactic.

Also on having being said that "on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you", well, it's only a "breeze" because of how ridiculously high our abilities and weapon damages scale. If they had some sort of diminishing returns or more restrictions, then the Infested Melee would have been enough without throwing in broken scaling mini-bosses.

Throwing broken units at us because we have broken Frames and weapons? How does that make sense exactly?