[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[kapn655321]

Needing to kill is what balances his extremely dank abilities.
He really does have it all, except that it requires skill and planning to have it all at once.

[verklickt147]

am i´m right ? the CAP of Penance has been removed again?

 

[Am0r.UA]

Natural Talent and Speed Drift should increase energy drain speed not just animation

[Kurambik]

2 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Needing to kill is what balances his extremely dank abilities.
He really does have it all, except that it requires skill and planning to have it all at once.

Yes but then all that skill and planning is ruined by a Nova dropping antimatter drops all over the place.

[Jimmeh420]

Sorry guys but ye fixed the wrong things completely in the most recent hotfix. He still has the main problems of spending a lot of time locked in animations and he finds it very difficult to apply his buffs.

Once again, it's not fun to be stuck in casting animations and 3 of his abilities have you in animations where Harrow can't do a thing. Reduce the casting animations for Harrow's 2 and 4 and allow him to move while casting both. This will make Harrow feel less passive and more fun as you're not as often stuck in animations.

Penance should give all the buffs except lifesteal to allies but the buffs that allies get should be around 50% of what Harrow attains since the buff can be kept up for a long period of time. Since allies don't get the lifesteal buff Harrow gets to keep the theme of damaging to buff his allies. The energy cost should also be reduced/removed entirely as sacrificing all your shields is a big enough loss. Assuming that buff goes through, to prevent Harrow from stacking Penance infinitely Harrow should not get any duration when he has 0 shields.

Finally, for Thurible his allies HAVE TO proc the energy restore but make it so ability kills do not proc it. Harrow is a freaking support and he finds it difficult to buff his team. That makes 0 sense. I get that you're trying to give him this cool theme of killing to buff his team but unfortunately you're just relegating him to rarely being used. To fix this allies should proc the energy restore, however, Harrow and his allies should get greater benefit when Harrow himself is the one that gets the kill. This fixes the issue of, in Pablo's words, making Harrow too passive but at the same time buffs his support capabilities while keeping his theme.

I feel that this post is in vain as that is probably the last look DE are gonna take at Harrow until his Prime but I figured I'd post it anyways.

[Jimmeh420]

Sorry guys but ye fixed the wrong things completely in the most recent hotfix. He still has the main problems of spending a lot of time locked in animations and he finds it very difficult to apply his buffs.

Once again, it's not fun to be stuck in casting animations and 3 of his abilities have you in animations where Harrow can't do a thing. Reduce the casting animations for Harrow's 2 and 4 and allow him to move while casting both. This will make Harrow feel less passive and more fun as you're not as often stuck in animations.

Penance should give all the buffs except lifesteal to allies but the buffs that allies get should be around 50% of what Harrow attains since the buff can be kept up for a long period of time. Since allies don't get the lifesteal buff Harrow gets to keep the theme of damaging to buff his allies. The energy cost should also be reduced/removed entirely as sacrificing all your shields is a big enough loss. Assuming that buff goes through, to prevent Harrow from stacking Penance infinitely Harrow should not get any duration when he has 0 shields.

Finally, for Thurible his allies HAVE TO proc the energy restore but make it so ability kills do not proc it. Harrow is a freaking support and he finds it difficult to buff his team. That makes 0 sense. I get that you're trying to give him this cool theme of killing to buff his team but unfortunately you're just relegating him to rarely being used. To fix this allies should proc the energy restore, however, Harrow and his allies should get greater benefit when Harrow himself is the one that gets the kill. This fixes the issue of, in Pablo's words, making Harrow too passive but at the same time buffs his support capabilities while keeping his theme.

I feel that this post is in vain as that is probably the last look DE are gonna take at Harrow until his Prime but I figured I'd post it anyways.

[EinheriarJudith]

10 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

~snip~

i agree that penance would be much better if it could be casted while moving. but covenant instead of getting moving cast should instead force all enemies to target him (during cast and through absorb phase). 

Edited July 5, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[SenorClipClop]

21 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

he finds it very difficult to apply his buffs

He does, or you do?

[Jimmeh420]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

He does, or you do?

He does. You HAVE to get the kill as a ''support'' frame when you can potentially be with the top DPS frames in the game. Not to mention they also have to be within your range which is, by the way, smaller than EV's range.

[Trichouette]

I still have no idea what's the problem people have with harrow...

The frame is OP as hell.

Sure he's the kind of support that needs to be killing enemies to heal his teamates but that isn't so bad.

-edit-

Oh god I just noticed he got buffed

Edited July 5, 2017 by Trichouette

[LascarCapable]

I definitely don't think the issues were nicely adressed (or at least a few of them). Were those buffs meaningful ? Well, yes they were. You can definitely feel the highly increased firepower of Penance. The additional time on cast is definitely great, and thurible loading faster is welcomed as well. But were those fixing the original issue ? I don't think so.

Penance didn't really need more duration and power in my honest opinion. What it truly needed is to be a team buff. On the plus side, the current buff makes the skill more rewarding in solo play though. And Thurible should still do something else aside from giving energy, considering the fact that most players will run a setup where they will hardly run out of energy anytime soon (Max efficiency, Zenurik, syndicate weapons, etc...).

The Covenant buff was a small surprise and doesn't hurt at all. 

[Trichouette]

2 minutes ago, D20 said:

And Thurible should still do something else aside from giving energy, considering the fact that most players will run a setup where they will hardly run out of energy anytime soon (Max efficiency, Zenurik, syndicate weapons, etc...).

I agree it should do more than give energy but the fact is, you can play full blind rage and don't give a damn about efficiency because of how broken that ability is :D

[Jimmeh420]

14 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

I still have no idea what's the problem people have with harrow...

The frame is OP as hell.

Sure he's the kind of support that needs to be killing enemies to heal his teamates but that isn't so bad.

-edit-

Oh god I just noticed he got buffed

He is ''OP as hell''? Sure, he has damage invulnerability but it has to be timed well. Does Trinity have to time her 4 well? Hell no. She just has to press it whenever she feels like it. The crit chance buff is nice but damage buffs to your team are infinitely less useful than consistent healing and damage reduction whenever you need it. His 3 is a worse version of EV in every way. It requires Harrow to get the kills, has less range than EV and has to be charged up first. I do like his 2 but I want him to give the buffs to allies but at a reduced number so as to not give ridiculous reload speed and fire rate to everyone.

 

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

I agree it should do more than give energy but the fact is, you can play full blind rage and don't give a damn about efficiency because of how broken that ability is :D

You're looking at his 3 as a solo frame. He is supposed to be a support. DE themselves have said that he's a support frame but the problem is that right now he is a better solo frame than a support. I want him to keep the theme of being a support that gets kills to buff his team but not to shoehorn him into that. That's why I proposed the change of 3 working when allies get kills but at a reduced number to if Harrow gets the kill. He gets to keep the cool theme while being able to support his team better and not becoming a ''charge up Thurible and sit back'' frame. He is still enticed to get the kills but he's not completely screwed when allies get all of the kills.

[That1Cactus]

From all of this I'm just seeing this as a user issue and not a Harrow's issue. Harrow is more about mastering timing and sticking to the team while taking the hits. I have no issues with Penance, not only because Shield Charger and Guardian from sentinels (or Protect from a Raksa kubrow) instantly helps out for the shields but really as long as your team is in affinity range all you have to do is shoot a lot and each little hit counts towards the healing when they need it.
Sitting back swinging Thurible is not big problem because the energy benefits don't happen unless you press it again after charging it up, so sitting back charging it up to 5-10 seconds is not a huge problem. Especially once your team starts getting those kills and headshots they get ALL the good energy, and if you bring good killing weapons you also benefit alongside.
Plus why would you want to move around while under Covenant's damage resistance? The more you get hit the more crit chance bonus everyone gets. All of his powers work well off of each other, especially once you understand how he works and managing your groove during the skirmish.
Really I think in this experience Harrow might not be your cup of tea in terms of a support frame. But thankfully Harrow is pretty much an alternate version of Trinity and if you're not fond of one you can use the other.

[Jimmeh420]

3 minutes ago, That1Cactus said:

Especially once your team starts getting those kills and headshots they get ALL the good energy, and if you bring good killing weapons you also benefit alongside.

Based off of this, you have not played Harrow. ONLY Harrow's kills restores energy to himself and allies.

I freaking love his theme. I just want him to not be locked in as many animations and for him to restore energy to allies more consistently. Don't use ''He might not suit your playstyle'' as a reason for a frame having that many long clunky animations.

[That1Cactus]

Just now, Jimmeh420 said:

Based off of this, you have not played Harrow. ONLY Harrow's kills restores energy to himself and allies.

I freaking love his theme. I just want him to not be locked in as many animations and for him to restore energy to allies more consistently. Don't use ''He might not suit your playstyle'' as a reason for a frame having that many long clunky animations.

I believe the words "getting those kills" shows that I am fully aware that you need to kill to get energy. Though I'm speaking from personal experience I've been seeing teammates gaining the energy benefits from their kills and headshots when I miss my shots(none using any energy restoring based weapons/power/equipment). Also if you have a problem with a frame being "locked" behind casting animations then you're probably not gonna enjoy Banshee, Hydroid, Inaros, Limbo, Loki, Rhino, Trinity, or Zephyr (and some others I've probably missed off the top of my head) because they also have clunky animations on their abilities that could be considered a "hindrance"
If anything from this you need to play him even more so you can get used to his abilities and gain the skills to make him effective which I've personally had no issues with since his debut.

[Trichouette]

40 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

He is ''OP as hell''? Sure, he has damage invulnerability but it has to be timed well. Does Trinity have to time her 4 well? Hell no

Her 4 doesn't grant immortality... and she has to time it to save people, she's forced to look at the right side of the screen all the time just to save people from dying.

Just because trinity is insanely more OP than him that doesn't make him bad.

(I wish trinity could get a full rework, that way people would stop compairing all supports to her OPness(and oh god she got nerfed a billion time and it's still not enough))

Edited July 5, 2017 by Trichouette

[verklickt147]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i agree that penance would be much better if it could be casted while moving. but covenant instead of getting moving cast should instead force all enemies to target him (during cast and through absorb phase). 

hmm - u can move - just do a bullet jump and cast it in mid air ... thats what i really like  - that everything can be casted in mid air...

 

[Buzkyl]

From 21.0.4

Overall,

• the duration increase from penance is much appreciated, the reload and fire rate increase is also great additions as well. 120 greatly decreases the amount of micromanaging between timers, because shields provide abit more duration it's even easier to stack up
• Thurible being affected by NT is such a GREAT QoL feature and the bonus range is always welcomed
• Covenant get's more crit per damage is alos a welcome buff

 

Overall Harrow fels alot better off however

• Thurible is a 1 handed skill, he even has one hand free can we atleast be able to use pistols while channeling so we're not sitting ducks?
• Penance fire rate and reload bonuses should be applied to teammates even at a lower bonus.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

 

Harrow Changes:
(Values based on Rank 3 Abilities, lower Ranks adjusted similarly)

Penance

• Increased Duration from Shields by 25%
• Increased Duration cap from 60 seconds to 120 seconds
• Increased Fire Rate from 25% to 35%
• Increased Reload Speed from 50% to 70%

Thurible

• Increased Range from 15m to 20m
• Sped up Energy Channeling by 50%
• Energy Channeling speed is now affected by Natural Talent

Covenant

• Increase Crit per 100 Damage from 1.25% to 1.5%

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Buzkyl

[Jimmeh420]

27 minutes ago, That1Cactus said:

I believe the words "getting those kills" shows that I am fully aware that you need to kill to get energy. Though I'm speaking from personal experience I've been seeing teammates gaining the energy benefits from their kills and headshots when I miss my shots(none using any energy restoring based weapons/power/equipment). Also if you have a problem with a frame being "locked" behind casting animations then you're probably not gonna enjoy Banshee, Hydroid, Inaros, Limbo, Loki, Rhino, Trinity, or Zephyr (and some others I've probably missed off the top of my head) because they also have clunky animations on their abilities that could be considered a "hindrance"
If anything from this you need to play him even more so you can get used to his abilities and gain the skills to make him effective which I've personally had no issues with since his debut.

I can guarantee that only Harrows kills restore energy. I know because I've tested it and that's how the ability is supposed to work.

Those frames with casting animations? 1. Their casting animations aren't as long as Harrow's. 2. They don't have as many as he does so that is a bad point. Also, to add to that, Loki, Inaros, Limbo, Rhino and Trinity are just flat out better frames than Harrow.

No amount of skill can overcome Harrow being forced into many and long animations and no amount of skill can prevent your DPS teammates from whiping the floor and preventing your energy restore.

 

 

[SenorClipClop]

 

1 hour ago, Jimmeh420 said:

He does. You HAVE to get the kill as a ''support'' frame when you can potentially be with the top DPS frames in the game.

I'm not having the same troubles as you are with this Warframe, so I can't help but think this isn't a problem with Harrow. Since he gets overshields, a damage-based heal and some very impressive damage buffs, have you tried standing, well, not several meters away from the action? All of his abilities lean toward Harrow being played in near-constant danger with brief moments of respite to reset his buffs. "Support" does not have to mean "helping from beyond the boundaries of the fight", and Harrow makes a bold point of breaking that stereotype. If your allies are killing everything before you even get the chance, it's either because:

A: You are not involving yourself, so roll up your ninja robot sleeves and get in there; or,

B: your squad is far too overpowered for the mission, in which case your presence in that mission is completely meaningless no matter what Warframe you're using.

 

58 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

His 3 is a worse version of EV in every way

That is good. That is very, very good. It's really not supposed to be on par with EV in any way, since Trinity cannot apply CC and cannot grant the team +200% bonus Critical Chance. Harrow is an offensive support, so he's not allowed to have anywhere near the same restorative effects as our dedicated restorative support, lest she be made utterly obsolete. If you want piles of energy for no effort at all, we already have a Warframe that can do that for you.

[KiltsAreManlySkirts]

2 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

That is good. That is very, very good. It's really not supposed to be on par with EV in any way, since Trinity cannot apply CC and cannot grant the team +200% bonus Critical Chance. Harrow is an offensive support, so he's not allowed to have anywhere near the same restorative effects as our dedicated restorative support, lest she be made utterly obsolete. If you want piles of energy for no effort at all, we already have a Warframe that can do that for you.

An offensive support that gives one buff to his teammates?

On a side note, cactus, you are wrong.  I play on a potato so excuse the low framerate.

 

[djternan]

7 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Needing to kill is what balances his extremely dank abilities.
He really does have it all, except that it requires skill and planning to have it all at once.

It's a little too reliant on your allies being inefficient.  His powers could have some small effect for kills by teammates (maybe 25-50% of the effect for Harrow's kills).  That way his powers aren't useless when you have allies getting the majority of kills but there's still a good reason for Harrow to get the kills.

[SenorClipClop]

8 minutes ago, frokiller said:

An offensive support that gives one buff to his teammates?

I really hope you're not trying to downplay +200% Crit chance to all allies within 50 metres. Do you understand how strong that is? Please don't embarrass yourself.

[LSG501]

8 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Needing to kill is what balances his extremely dank abilities.
He really does have it all, except that it requires skill and planning to have it all at once.

the problem with that is you need enemies to actually kill.... on the star map I've literally been moaned at for not supplying energy when there are no enemies available for me to kill because you guessed it they're all dead by a wof ember or similar because of it's 'instant on' ability that can kill pretty much everything.... it doesn't help that frame start with enough energy to trigger their top ability and kill enough enemies (if that's the frames ability) for some energy orbs so it doesn't even have any down time in a lot of cases.