[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[RobWasHere]

So our space pirate got his abilities revised. I was sceptical at first - changes were very cosmetical at first glance, with no real changes to his abilities.

I played him intensively and you know what? I'm pleasantly surprised. Especially after yesterday patch, his abilities actually do something. No more splashing around targets or praying that tentacles will spawn at a right place. But the more I played him, I realised that rework centered around undertow was not quite a good direction. Even with his unintended high damage now, I very rarely used the puddle.

I don't know the real reason. To me, undertow is still an emergency skill, not his main skill. What I used the most instead? Tempest Barrage. His most broken ability since release got properly fixed and deliver reliable knockdown. With augment, I was even killing faster than with undertow, just because of knockdown and finishers. It can even deal with pesky nullies. Undertow still served as emergency skill - gather them up, cast tentacles, cancel puddle, kill everything with melee.

I also tried puddle-only playstyle, but I got bored very quickly. Also, it doesn't go well with non-grineer opponents. Ancient healers sometimes make enemies immune to grab, while single nully or comba can make your life miserable when barrage won't deal with bubble immediately.

In conclusion, his rework is good. Adds much-needed survivability and interactivity. But in my opinion got centered around wrong ability.

[RikerWatts]

Not really a rework, just qol stuff with a hard focus on one of the most boring abilities in the game.

 

[Zalnerath]

I doubt DE will probably ever see this, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway. 

I've had this idea for Hydroid's "undertow" ability and it's energy drain and the way it works. There are a few other warframes whose abilities have an interesting drain mechanic that I feel would be beneficial to Hydroid.  

here's what I mean.

Wukong _ "cloud walker" (only drains energy for distance traveled)

Equinox _ "pacify and provoke" (only drains energy per enemy effected)

What I like about these abilities is that you can regain energy while using them. So the way I think it should work with Hydroid's "undertow" ability is like this.

 

Undertow

Drains energy only for distance traveled and an increase in movement speed. 

Deals finisher damage in ever increasing amounts but has an energy drain per second for each enemy effected.

Make it so enemies who drown in undertow have an increased chance to drop an energy orb.

Make it so Hydroid can pick up orbs, items, and ammo. 

Leave the new tentacle snaring feature in 'cause I love that ^_^ 

 

And that's pretty much it. Let me know what you think.     

Edited August 17, 2017 by Zalnerath
hit the wrong key and posted before I was finished with it

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

On 8/10/2017 at 1:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

• Allies can shoot their weapons into Hydroid's Undertow to transfer half of their damage and distribute it among all enemies in the puddle.
• Undertow damage per second is now a % of the target's max Health.
• Undertow damage per second now scales with the amount of enemies in the pool - more submerged enemies, more damage! 
• Undertow now deals Impact damage towards submerged enemies.

Congrats, DE. You actually made one of the most hated WF abilities in the game meta material.

 

Now if Tidal Surge could only drag those Undertowed enemies and your Tentacle Swarm along to a new location without leaving your drowning victims and your kraken behind, the Synergy between Hydroid's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th would warrant meta consideration...

Edited August 17, 2017 by (XB1)Vile Slanders
Poor choice of grammer

[Silly_Dili]

There are so many suggestions for Hydroid. And even now his abilities are broken. Crazy damage! But most of comments are still negative 'cause gameplay wise there's nothing fun about being a pool.. I'm sorry, but tweaking or buffing is NOT the way to fix hydroid. Like I said, plz look through the comments DE, 'cause there are plenty of amazing ideas. Plz DE don't be stubborn.

[(PSN)Keiji_Haku]

10 minutes ago, VampireMax said:

There are so many suggestions for Hydroid. And even now his abilities are broken. Crazy damage! But most of comments are still negative 'cause gameplay wise there's nothing fun about being a pool.. I'm sorry, but tweaking or buffing is NOT the way to fix hydroid. Like I said, plz look through the comments DE, 'cause there are plenty of amazing ideas. Plz DE don't be stubborn.

I would have rather had the damage be on Tentacle Swarm. I mean its not even a good enough CC to warrant the craptastic damage.

 

 

I killed 8 lvl130 corrupted bombards with hydroid in 4-5 seconds. 4 TO 5 SECONDS. This is his 3rd abilitiy, not even his ultimate.

 

I don't understand anything anymore.

 

 

EDIT: 271 percent power strength

Edited August 17, 2017 by (PS4)Keiji_Haku

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

6 minutes ago, VampireMax said:

There are so many suggestions for Hydroid. And even now his abilities are broken. Crazy damage! But most of comments are still negative 'cause gameplay wise there's nothing fun about being a pool.. I'm sorry, but tweaking or buffing is NOT the way to fix hydroid. Like I said, plz look through the comments DE, 'cause there are plenty of amazing ideas. Plz DE don't be stubborn.

Curious question for you, but if Tidal Surge didn't actually reset Undertow and leave Tentacle Swarm behind, would playing as a puddle be more fun?

I know that I'd have a blast dashing from one corner of a defense/interception tileset, gobbling enemies up into one giant tentacle infested turkey shoot of a death pool.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

I just think Hydroid himself is just a awful frame. Of course a frame having water powers on paper sounded really cool. But if what we get is Hydriods current abilities. It's not all that great. I still think Hydroid entire kit should be changed and not tweaks to his abilities to add synergy.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

Time for an extensive and unrealistically ambitious Hydroid discussion!

 

 

Passive: Pillage and Plunder

• Red lockers can be opened, finisher attacks on enemies have a 100% chance to spawn extra loot.

 

2nd ability is replaced and Tidal Surge is bound to Slide action

 

• Tidal surge is bound to slide action.
• Costs no energy.
• Sprint mods effect speed, slide mods effect range, friction mods effect duration.
• Can bullet jump directly out of animation just like normal slide.
• Just like slide, if the key is held, tidal surge continues but diminishes speed and distance over time.
• Caries enemies along the ride (exactly as it does now).
• Enemies hit by tidal surge receive a cold proc and are knocked down. (As recommended by @mogamu).
• When submerged in undertow, Tidal Surge acts the same way it does currently but free of energy cost.
• Slide attacks remain unchanged but animation is not shown. Can be damaged while sliding to compensate for the lack of energy required. 

Spoiler

Yes I believe two passives is justified, fight me... but before then hear me out first. 

As it stands, Hydroid's passive is among the worst in the game. I've never known anyone able to use it reliably and it completely goes against the (few) strengths Hydroid has. Although its a nifty reference to the oar myth (thanks @Sabuuchi) there is little reason to use slam attacks in the first place when most of Hydroid's abilities are centered around ground control and ground finishers (If a tentacle spawned after a ground finisher that would be a cheap and easy, but at least complimentary, fix). I think that the best way to replace however, is to have his passive relate more heavily to his pirate theme. As things are currently, the only way red (locked) lockers can be opened is either through the 'Scavenge' or 'Master Thief' mods and in general, they're hardly worth the mod slots as the pay off is very little. Hydroid, being a pirate, should naturally have the thieving skills to achieve such a task cost free. This would also benefit those who mod Hydroid exclusively for looting purposes and set him apart from his only other competition in that regard (that being Nekros). THIS IS NOT OVERPOWERED AND IF YOU CAN SOMEHOW EXPLAIN TO ME THAT IT IS I'LL GIVE YOU AN UPVOTE. Now perhaps a 100% chance to drop extra loot on finishers is a bit overkill, but I still think it would be a welcome and synergetic change that would benefit any squad no matter what since Hydroid is going to be doing a LOT of ground finishers during a game. This would quite literally reward players for playing the frame as intended in a passive and somewhat minuscule way. 

Now onto the second part of his passive...

I have read a lot of mixed feedback about Tidal Surge but most everyone can agree it's not in a good place at the moment.

• Yes it is awesome to carry enemies in a big wave and fling them around or off cliffs (easily my favorite aspect of the ability).
• Yes the knockdown is both essential to Hydroid gameplay and feels satisfying as hell.
• Yes you move really fast.

 Unfortunately... 

• It's difficult to control
• Its tricky to mod for
• Its the only reliable way to move in undertow but costs too much energy to be entirely justified
• On top of that, the only way to stop its momentum is by casting Undertow which only contributes more to Hydroid's energy problems
• If you knock down enemies but fling them too far away you can basically forget that sweet, sweet ground finisher
• Using Tidal surge while in undertow leaves enemies behind (probably a bug but neeeeeds to be fixed)
• It has contributed to more accidental fall off the map situations than any other ability I've used before (you're right, you're right, maybe I just gotta git gud)
• If I cast near a wall, regardless of if I'm invulnerable or not, I'm basically stuck there until the end of the ability or until I cast undertow which just feels CLUNKY

Which is the main gripe of most people dissatisfied with Tidal Surge, it is simply not user friendly. However, it can (or at least has the potential to) be really fun which is why I feel that it would be a complete waste to scrap the ability altogether. If Tidal Surge could be redesigned in such a way that both satisfied its fans yet became more reliable to use, everybody would be happy. 

I have seen forum users suggest that binding Tidal surge to the roll function akin to Limbo's Riftwalk would be an adequate solution, but I must carefully disagree with this idea. At first, it seems as if they are the same in concept but after testing I've found that the roll function would not be compatible with the mechanics of Tidal Surge. After testing the distance of a standard roll (both moving and standing) I've found that, as long as the player continues to travel in a straight line, a roll will cover 9 meters in an average of 0.828 seconds. Rolls can be quite varied though, as they can be executed (generally) in three different directions where as Tidal Surge can only be cast in a straight line. On top of this Tidal surge will always cover 30 meters in 1 second (at base). Tying that crazy of a speed/distance increase to a parkour mechanic commonly used as an evasion maneuver (which covers relatively little ground) is a bit ambitious in my opinion. Which is where my suggestion comes in, why not bind Tidal Surge and most all of its mechanics to Hydroid's slide? 

An unmodified slide with a running start of 5 meters travels between 18-20 meters in an average of 3.261 seconds (according to my testing). Divekick into slide was difficult for me to test but seemed to increase the slide range from around 3-5 meters (although that distance could have come from the jump bonus, as I said, it was hard to test). With this in mind, Tidal Surge's range is much more comparable to a Warframe's slide than it is to a roll and could potentially augment Hydroid's maneuverability in a very natural way. As long as there were no restrictions to momentum or movement during the animation, this ability could maintain its fun factor and utility while being a bit more streamlined for general use. Therein lies the issue however, how do you make this ability less clunky? Without further ado lets get into the real nitty gritty.

As it stands, I think it would only make things more complicated if Tidal Surge remained as it is when bound to the slide action. In order for this to work I believe that firstly, Tidal Surge/sliding should be energy free. Requiring a player to use energy to preform a basic function would be TERRIBLE especially considering base Hydriod's poor energy economy (then again, Tidal Surge as is is a huge contributor to that in the first place). In my mind, this would not be overpowered either since slides cannot be preformed in succession without momentum. This means that Hydroid first must be going fast enough to activate the ability and as long as Tidal Surge was changed to be more dependent on momentum, you wouldn't see a Hydroid spamming Tidal Surge to a game breaking extreme. If Tidal Surge was dependent on momentum however, how would the distance over time work? Since we know that most running slides result in around 6.6 meters per second (ms), buffing Hydroid's base slide to around  7.5 ms allow's him to travel around 24.45 meters in 3.26 seconds which is a slight buff to slide speed to compensate for the deceleration now active on the ability. I do think it would be nice to be able to modify Tidal Surge still though, but instead of using power mods, use mobility mods such as 'Maglev' or 'Rush' to influence the ability instead. This allows players to mod exclusively around abilities without potentially ruining a key aspect to movement during gameplay. That being said, I think it would be most appropriate to tie sprint speed to meters per second (for every 10% modded sprint speed add .5 ms), slide mods to affect the width of Tidal Surge (6m at base scales with mod's percentage), and friction acts as it does now in that it affects the deceleration over time. 

The most crucial aspect of this change however would be Tidal Surge's behavior relative to sliding. It is in my mind imperative that full control is given to the player as slides behave now. This means jumping, bullet jumping, dive kicking, rolling and slide attacks may be preformed at any point during Tidal Surge just as they do during a slide. The ONLY restriction I believe Tidal surge should possess is the inability to shoot while sliding. If enemies are knocked down, carried, and receive a cold proc when hit by Tidal Surge I believe it is justified to be unable to use a weapon in this state. I also think it is fair to remove invulnerability from Tidal Surge to compensate for its speed. Slide attacks however, should remain, but the animation is not shown. Slide attack range is now completely dependent upon slide mods but special weapon effects such as the Telos Boltace's vacuum will remain as is. 

2nd Ability: "Lure" 

• Large ship piece (if you like this idea and want to contribute art that would be awesome) that may be placed that draws enemy aggro within 5/10/15/20 meters. Enemies within 2/4/6/8 meters (unmodifiable) spawn a tentacle with a cap of 10 tentacles. Sail spawns with 200 base armor that scales with Hydroid's armor value (but not power strength) similar to Frost's snow-globe or Atlas's Bulwark. Spawns with 2,500/ 3,750/ 5,000/ 6,250 base health. Health scales with power duration. 
• Energy cost: 100.
• Upon health depletion, let's off an explosion that deals 25% of enemy health as finisher damage and has a guaranteed blast proc in an unmodifiable 10m range. 
• Only one instance of Lure may be active at a time, can be recast to change positions or refresh health. Recasting does not trigger explosion.
• If Tentacle swarm is cast within range, tentacles (including those spawned by this ability) constrict enemies rather than flail them. 
• Tentacles will trap new enemies once constricted foes die as long as Tentacle Swarm's duration is active and/or Lure's Health withstand.
• Tempest Barrages tracking is improved while cast on/near ability.
• Change [Tidal Impunity] into [Lure Cure] that works similarly: "allies within 10 meters of Lure are invulnerable to status effects and have current effects removed" .

Spoiler

I reached the conclusion that Hydroid needed a new ability that both synergized with his kit, and expanded upon his specialties. In my experience, what Hydroid seems to do best is map control (crowd control, but not in its traditional sense, he thrives on map lockdown). Hydroid can potentially move a large number of enemies and set up better positioning for his team, at the same time disabling crowds with knockdown (or corrosive procs if you've got the augment). However, because of Hydroid's severe lack of ability damage, inconsistency with abilities (RNG dependent), and the tendency to slow down gameplay with his 3rd or 4th ability there is little reason to play Hydroid over frames who posses greater CC potential.

Now, am I claiming that by adding this ability you suddenly fix all of Hydroid's problems? NO. But by adding an ability that further capitalizes on Hydroid's map control in a way that compliments the rest of his abilities, some of his biggest issues can be remedied. According to the wiki, there are only 5 abilities in Warframe that change threat level (also known as aggro) of enemies. By giving Hydroid access to an ability specifically designed for drawing enemy fire his survivability is increased, his crowd control is benefited further and allows him to potentially fill an unexplored niche that could prove quite useful defense type objectives but more importantly the upcoming Plains of Eidolon. In an open world environment, there will be an increased value placed on aggro control/management. With this in mind, Hydroid would potentially have a more defined role in squads, and who doesn't want to go fishing with the water frame himself?
(art credit, found @ https://waifu-frame.tumblr.com/)

The most important thing to get right about this ability is the amount of health the structure has and how it scales. It would be unbalanced to have the structure be too tanky but it would be worthless if it was too squishy. I think that being a physical object with health and armor values would suit it better than having it on a timer which requires constant refreshing (as that could get annoying really quickly). the current values I have listed are my best estimation to how durable it should be (at max rank and power duration Lure has 17,625 health which seems excessive, but recognize that its entire purpose is taking fire from enemies in a large radius, it'll go down quicker than you'd expect).

The next most important aspect of this ability is its range. 20m is slightly better than a guardian derision mod, and if modified for maximum range would be 50m. This has the most potential to be game breaking but considering the open world expansion due in September, the range may not be too far fetched. Also consider that the larger the radius, the more enemies are likely shooting it, which depending on enemy level could become very problematic for this ability staying active. With the understanding that enemies can only be damaged by the explosion within 10 meters and crowd controlled by tentacles within 8 meters of Lure which means that going for maximum range is not always favorable for a squad.

Speaking of which, lets talk about ability synergy. We all know about the rather poor tracking of Hydroid's first ability. To levy this, I think that if Tempest Barrage is cast within Lure's range it receives improved tracking (still not guaranteed targeting). That would cut down on some of the innate RNG of Hydroid's first ability and damage enemies a bit more consistently. More importantly however, I believe Tentacle Swarm should constrict enemies rather than flail them when cast on/near this ability. This would help Hydroid's crowd control IMMENSELY as it would make enemies easier to shoot. However, because Tentacles could still flail as they do currently when not cast on/near Lure, flailing tentacles should have their damage buffed (how much? I'm not sure, but much more than it is now). This allows a Hydroid player to make more varied battlefield decisions ("Does my team need hard cc Tentacle's near my Lure, or would it be wiser to damage incoming enemies from this direction with Tentacle swarm?"). 

3rd Ability: "Undertow": 

• Allow movement in undertow with reduced range. Enemies do not submerge while Hydroid is in this state.
• Crouching with undertow active submerges Hydroid, replicating the current playstyle.
• Increase base range to 5m while in movement, 10m while submerged.
• Hydroid cannot bullet jump when moving while undertow is active but can from submerged state.
• Tidal Surge (slide) is not restricted during moving undertow, receives half range while submerged (as it does now).  
• Any enemy within the range of Undertow has a 40% chance (scales with power strength) to receive a Cold proc.
• Curative Undertow becomes a part of the base ability, always restoring health to Hydroid and Allies. ([Curative Undertow] augment is instead changed to [Refreshing Tides] which regenerates 3 energy per second for Hydroid and allies affected by undertow but removes its ability to heal).
• Damage scales by 1% of enemy health per tic, scales up every 10 enemies in puddle (as recommended by @Brozime at 11:20) (this was written pre-update) 

Spoiler

Moving in undertow would not be overpowered and to try and show you this I've taken some screenshots

This is the range of Undertow at base. Considering how slow you move in undertow, how can one be expected to keep up/heal teammates at this range? To remedy this, why not make the base range stay the same but allow Hydroid to move freely when the ability is active. This would make him more mobile and encourages an active playstyle

But what about those who love puddle? How about whenever you press crouch, Hydroid submerges (as he does now with all current features of undertow remaining the same) but with a buffed base range. I suggest 10 meters as seen below.

 

I believe that giving Undertow either base health regeneration or life-steal would give him unique support capabilities and would allow him to be versatile yet not completely overpowered. 

And there ya have it folks, DE is never going to touch this but thanks for reading if you did. Stay fluid me hearties, cheers.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Oni_Spartan4

[Nez-Kal]

So, currently Hydroid is VERY good against heavily armored enemy units, and his or other's Corrosive proccing abilities/weapons while they're in his Undertow. Some might say that he's over-powered....

...And frankly, I'd say he's not.

This is just like the Zakti and the very specific thrown Melee set-ups with Zakti's "Open for Finishers" gas clouds. The ability is Over-powered in its damage output, but the set-up and usability is so specific that it sort of makes up for it by limiting it significantly.

Some have compared this to Limbo's old "Nuking Cataclysm", but honestly, I don't think those people know what they are talking about.
Limbo's "Nuke" was such a problem because, as long as the enemies were not higher level Grineer, where clustered in high enough numbers, or were in a cluster with a super high hit-point Unit, you could wipe entire groups of Trash Mobs off the map with two button presses. That's why it was such a problem. It was very spam-y, and wiped out enemies pretty much anywhere you happened to gaze in the direction in...

Hydroid meanwhile has to become a tiny little puddle, drag armored units into that puddle, and either cast his augmented ability Corrosive Barrage on himself, or have someone proc-fire corrosive into his puddle. And again, this is just with heavily armored units, pretty much the opposite of Limbo's nuke victims. This whole thing is probably equally as "OP" as a high power-strength and Corrosive Projection Aura Oberon running out, putting down a Hallowed ground, and using his 4th once to ENTIRELY strip the armor off of level 150 Corrupted Bombards in an AoE. That's two power casts, all armor, gone. Yet it's not OP because, again with Hydroid, the whole this is entirely limited, and you have to be specifically built for it.

(Also, this "OP" to armored Units MAKES SENSE with Hydroid as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but heavy armor and water have never mixed well in the past. All that armor does bull for that Knight if he falls into the moat.)

Edited August 18, 2017 by Tangent-Valley
Changed "Zeni" to "Zakti". Spelling error

[sulusdacor]

update 21.5.0 feedback:

(in short he is buggy as hell and still has the same problems ...)

-bug: in undertow i can take damage (hope/assume this is not intended, since dodging or evasion abilities are crap in warframe, like we all know on titanias 4th and if i test in simulacrum i m invincible in his 3rd)

-in undertow i can be thrown around from enemies. i assume the ones grabed by tentacles, while they are flailed around in the air! since there was nothing really around when this happend (bug i assume)

-tentacle swarm charging ist okayish - having the sound feedback helps. (i still dont like it at all, sicne the feedback is very limited as to when it is charging and where. still very very problematic, see points below to 4th.)

- tentacle swarm after a while only casts in a small area where i used undertow. even if i'm not in my 3rd and cast in the direction it will not spread.

- switching in/out of your 3rd while casting 4 breaks it sometimes. interrupting/canceling the cast compeltly.

- 1st ability in general: feedback on charging and area covered is completly non existent. (if there is currently some indicator in the game, with all the light/effects going on in a mission you do not see it at all. add soem height idfference and you see nothing. seeing the area and getting feedback on what you ar doing is important especially for this ability, since it is so rng.).

- 4th: feedback for area covered and direction is completly non existent (see point above for his 1st)

- slower tentacles do not solve or mitigate the interaction problem at all. this change does nothing for him ....

- damage scaling of his 3rd is probably not intended this high. that said it gives him some okay killing potental and scaling. his ranges are so bad, that i dont felt it was op. with 4th runing and in a real level it is hard to grab enemys anyway. (with your team killing too.) so if u suceed in that task getting rewarded with at least decent damage and enemies that cant be interacted with being killed not in snails speed. so i feel this is totaly fine.

- allies shooting in the puddle to get dmg on the enemies: currently not needed, but i feel the fast killspeed is a good reward. if this gets returned to slow speed and needing allies damage. the other problem is that the visual covers more the actual size i feel, but it is still hard to figure out what to shoot. then again, when did u ever stop to shoot onto your feet?

- bug: ancient healer pulled into undertow in the simulacrum leave the ghost heal shadow (like visual the oberon heal bug)

- in 3rd: how many enemies are inside there? whats there health status? what type of enemies? did i still have that energy vampire draining me? any srt of feedback is missing there. the fast damage scaling and killing currently makes this a non issue. but since i expect it to get nerved by a lot this will be a big issue.

- visual bug? on low texture all texture of him are watery, but the tentacles are still white. missing textures there? or intentional for performance?

in the end he still feels bad to play. non interactive, sluggish. sam problems like described on other post and by many other players. the fixes do nothing for him in general to adress his problems.

thx for reading .

fight on tenno.

[PsiWarp]

So I wanna chat about the ability combos we got with Hydroid Revisited, specifically when initiated from Undertow.

Undertow + Tempest Barrage

• Pros:
  • Barrage can damage submerged enemies.
  • Barrage can be cast into the distance and is not limited by the size of the puddle.
• Cons:
  • Barrage damage is flat, therefore do not scale well with enemy level.
  • Enemies inside Undertow are already knocked down by that ability. Barrage knockdown is redundant.

Which means baseline Tempest Barrage does next to nothing notable against submerged enemies without Corroding Barrage. The current use for this combo is to keep enemies knocked down as Hydroid exits Undertow or Tidal Surge away in his puddle form, and of course to safely strip armor away from submerged enemies.

Undertow + Tidal Surge

• Pros:
  • Hydroid can relocate his puddle much more quickly than with WASD.
  • Enemies at the destination are submerged into the pool.
• Cons:
  • Tidal Surge's pull radius is non-functional or really small (mini-Hydroid surfing on his mini-wave) in this state.
  • Previously submerged enemies are left behind since they technically exit Undertow's range.
  • You only travel half the distance for full energy cost.

Which means the only real function of this combo is to relocate a short distance. Tidal Surge is severely gimped because of the halved distance, unremarkable pull radius, and if you're lucky 1 or 2 enemies get ragdolled and flung into your pool at the new destination. The amount of enemies you gathered with Undertow tendril grabbing doesn't matter when they mostly get left behind. I tested Tidal Surge used by itself and used in Undertow, with max Ability Range the difference in functionality (and lack thereof) is very noticeable.

The current use for this combo is to chain into Tempest Barrage and/or Tentacle Swarm to keep the pile of enemies you left behind where you left them.

Undertow + Tentacle Swarm

• Pros:
  • Tentacles pack tightly inside Undertow, or when charged cast, some tentacles spawn outside the pool while most are inside.
  • Tentacle Swarm deals double damage.
  • Hydroid can safely uncast Undertow or move away while the enemies he collected stick to tentacles as they emerge.
• Cons:
  • Tentacle Swarm does absolutely no damage to submerged enemies, even with tentacles slamming against the center of the pool.
  • Enemies held by tentacles (if held higher than the tentacle's base) are lifted out of the pool as the tentacles flail, causing the scaling stacking damage of Undertow to reset to base damage on those enemies.

This combo strikes me as unsynergetic. Letting tentacles deal double damage yet not allowing them to damage submerged enemies you used effort to collect feels weird. Undertow can't damage enemies if they exit the pool, and tentacles lifting them up doesn't help.

The current use for this combo is for Hydroid to leave his pile of enemies behind for tentacles to grab and smack. But there's not much point to do that, because Undertow itself does scaling stacking damage whereas tentacles do not and therefore delay killing enemies. Even with double Magnetic and Finisher damage, tentacles just aren't the killing machines they would appear to be.

So the vibe I'm getting from these combos is that you're not supposed to overlap Undertow with the other abilities you cast, but you are supposed to move away for those abilities to do their jobs.

Edited August 17, 2017 by PsiWarp

[CarrotSalad]

The travel speed of tidal surge, both in the puddle and outside the puddle feels way to slow for my comfort.

It's something thats bothering me about Hydroid for the past week. Movement speed from the ability is too slow. It's taking the joy out of playing him.

[thegreatersea]

After discussion with a few Hydroid players, I've identified a few issues:

• Enemies that can hook players can still hook Hydroid while he's in undertow, and although he doesn't get dragged, he still takes damage as if he does. We are currently unsure if this is a bug or intended, although we hope it's the former.
• His passive is still next to useless, even more so now that Hydroid's kit encourages spending the majority of your time in puddle form. In light of this, we have come up with the following:
  • Enemies in a knockdown state have an X% chance to drop an energy orb. (10% was proposed, but this would obviously be tested)
• The charge mechanics for Hydroid's 1 and 4 abilities are clunky, especially when not in puddle form. We would prefer these abilities instead scale with enemy level and ability strength/range/duration as with all other frames.

[PsiWarp]

Also about Curative Undertow, since it's highly unlikely we'll see Undertow's size increase, might I offer a suggestion?

Hydroid can left-click on allies in grab range to launch a healing stream (basically a glowing water tendril), which stays connected to allies until Curative Undertow heals them to full health or they move away from grab range. But no, it won't pull allies to Hydroid's pool, don't add trolling mechanics.

[Bonedit]

I feel like Hydroid overall is ok the way he is except the RNG and random flailing and inaccuracies in his kit that make him so unreliable and thus unfavorable.

Tempest Barrage -this is a cool ability, and while I could suggest a few different abilities altogether... in light of trying to keep this ability, I would like to try to make this more accurate. While in Undertow this ability should target randomly within the Undertow much like the current ultimate, which charge time increasing the range... however the blasts should land a tad quicker. Why is this important? Because when using Tidal Surge to move in Undertow... the Tempest Barrage should follow the Tidal Surge along its path and do damage in a straight line. This ability in conjuction with Undertow and Tidal Surge should work much like the way flying Osprey's dash forward and do a bunch of AOE in their path. This provides a focused and consistent source of damage in the direction you want instead of randomly just hailing RNG over a large surface area.

TL;DR While in Undertow, Tempest Barrage shoots inside Undertow and follows barrage path in the direction of Tidal Surge. While outside Undertow, Tempest Barrage shoots missiles in a straight wide line OR cone in front of Hydroid instead of a mass area. Charging of ability could still increase width and/or distance.

Tidal Surge - i think its fine the way it is, would be nice to Click (view path width/direction overlay on ground) and Release (fire) for accurate placement.

Undertow - i think this is also fine the way it is, sure the range could be bigger... but we could make this more powerful if the other abilities can synergize better with it. Tidal Surge already does a good job, but the other two are somewhat lack luster which is why people want and expect more from Undertow because the other Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm are not reliable enough.

Tentacle Swarm - Now this is an ability i would like changed, two options.

a. Slight change where instead of the tentacles flailing around with the enemies, instead the tentacles slam em on the ground and continue to hit them while the enemies remain on the ground in a Knockdown state allowing for you and team members to accurately finish them off.

b. Would be a rework on the ult: The way this would work is a lot like Poseidon from the MOBA game called Smite... where in a burst of water the Kraken explodes half way (since we assume hes way way bigger) does initial entry damage and then every enemy in a radius gets grabbed and pulled into the center where the Kraken quickly sinks back into the debths which -may- do damage a second time upon pulling all enemies together in one spot this making the Tentacle Swarm a quick explosive gathering of enemies into one spot for further combo and finishers.

TL;DR Stop the flailing of enemies during Tentacle Swarm, either keep them grounded or have the enemies gather together in a central place where the Kraken creature is spawned.

This rework on the Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm allows for Tempest Barrage to shoot in a more concentrated area and Tentacle Swarm to either keep enemies grounded over a large area (minimal rework of the current ability) and not flail them around OR in a quick big burst gather all nearby enemies into one spot. This would synergize with further with Undertow and Tempest Barrage then Tidal Surge in the direction you want Tempest Barrage to fire with massive swarm of enemies being dealt by the Tentacle Swarm rework... rinse repeat.

Discuss.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Bonedit

[Sycebel]

Hydroid is almost a great frame but the only thing that I could see in terms of adjusting his current abilities is making it so enemies cannot escape his puddle. Currently, if he walks a far enough distance away or even if he presses 2, most (and all in the case of the walking away) of the enemies emerge. They should only be allowed to escape if 1. He runs out of energy, 2. A nullifier comes about, or 3. He presses the ability again to release them. Without this little detail, he still stays as the AFK puddle frame that no one wants to play. If he has this little tweak, he could move around with his Tidal Surge collecting enemy groups and completely taking them out of battle. And enemies should stay in if he moves away by just walking or by pressing 2. This small detail could really save him as a frame.

[Cephalon_Drakon]

I'll just leave this here. *slaps on seal of approval*

[Yargami]

   Yeah, I wondered if he would drop the enemies (I haven't done a huge amount of testing yet). I would prefer him to keep the enemies he has grabbed as well.

[BrotherJudas008]

Just been having a go with the updated skills, here are a couple of thoughts I had while playing:

1. Tempest Barrage works well, though I wouldn't mind something similar to Harrow's Thurible visual near the aiming reticle just to give a quick idea on how much it has been charged.  I know it is only 2 seconds charge time but it would still be nice.
2. Tidal Surge again works well.  Perhaps it could leave a lingering water effect on the floor for 6 seconds to match the augment so an ally can run into it after the cast and still get the immunity. (Unless it already does that, not entirely sure.)
3. Undertow I like the changes to thus far, the only problem I find is that I have no idea how many enemies I've got in the pool.  Possibly again something like Harrow's Thurible underneath the reticle (pool of water looking effect, with a number of enemies/damage multiplier for number of enemies etc).  Or even like Oberon's renewal showing how many things are being effected by Undertow.  
4. Tentacle Swarm, I like the updated visuals.  Though similar to Tempest Barrage something like Harrow's Thurible near the reticle to show how charged it is.  I like the expanding patch on the floor though to show where it will reach

The visual near the reticle could be something simple that looks like a short curved/wave-like bar that quickly fills with water.  Left side of reticle for Tempest Barrage, Right side for Tentacle Swarm and have something similar underneath for Undertow and it's numbers.  While Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm don't really need it I think it would be very useful for Undertow to having a number at least.

 

Thank you for the update DE. 

[Viedra_Lavinova]

Yea, I just want undertow to pull enemies and tentacles along with it whereever it goes, as long as undertow is active. With this Hydroid would be in great shape, at least for me.

[13QZXXTTX]

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hydroid Fixes, Part IV! 

It's been four deployments since our Original Hydroid revisited. Here is the latest batch of fixes. We do plan on focusing more on fixes for future deployments. In the week since the rework, we've seen a lot of great feedback and have incorporated some big changes. We will be giving the rework more time in player's hands before we consider further big changes - but as always please place your feedback in appropriate subforums. 

 

[13QZXXTTX]

New to the Forum huh? Tread carefully *puddles everywhere* :argh:.

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hydroid Fixes, Part IV! 

It's been four deployments since our Original Hydroid revisited. Here is the latest batch of fixes. We do plan on focusing more on fixes for future deployments. In the week since the rework, we've seen a lot of great feedback and have incorporated some big changes. We will be giving the rework more time in player's hands before we consider further big changes - but as always please place your feedback in appropriate subforums. 

 

[13QZXXTTX]

Q.Q I see so many Hydroid reworks that I can waterfall Squid XD.

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hydroid Fixes, Part IV! 

It's been four deployments since our Original Hydroid revisited. Here is the latest batch of fixes. We do plan on focusing more on fixes for future deployments. In the week since the rework, we've seen a lot of great feedback and have incorporated some big changes. We will be giving the rework more time in player's hands before we consider further big changes - but as always please place your feedback in appropriate subforums. 

 

[13QZXXTTX]

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Hydroid Fixes, Part IV! 

It's been four deployments since our Original Hydroid revisited. Here is the latest batch of fixes. We do plan on focusing more on fixes for future deployments. In the week since the rework, we've seen a lot of great feedback and have incorporated some big changes. We will be giving the rework more time in player's hands before we consider further big changes - but as always please place your feedback in appropriate subforums.