Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Why are people overthinking this?

If you think Ignus Dei's version is superior and/or think the "fire chicken" design doesn't meet the standard, let your voice be heard, either through petition or feedback or both.

Bloviate Prime. 

[Rhekemi]

When I offered my opinions, I didn't foresee my post starting an argument, I'll admit. 

I'll also admit that once an argument or debate starts, I'm often game for it.

But yes, this is just dragging the topic down. I'll see myself out.

@Grimm , good luck with the petition and your petitioners.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Rhekemi

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, Rhekemi said:

The petition creator has already acknowledged that they are being selfish. 

I'm not sure why you, @UrielColtan, are taking the word as an insult or an offense when I clearly stated it wasn't one. It's a statement of fact. The petition is about what you want--the IngusDei deluxe skin. The petition doesn't exist to benefit Ember, the game, or take into consideration anyone's wishes but the players who want the skin. That is selfish. It's okay to admit it. You're also welcome to continue saying it isn't selfish, but it's certainly not altruism driving the petition.

You're welcome to your opinions, but my post was never made to satisfy you. I'm completely indifferent as to whether or not you find it filling. Your satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with my post is irrelevant. I wanted to post my thoughts and I have. 

If you want to drag this out into an argument about the nature of the petition (and whether it's selfish or not), then this will likely be my last post. 

I invite you to read the petition creator's post I quoted above.

Skins aren't mandatory purchases. If we don't like them, we don't purchase them. But, as I said in my other post, DE is big on community input on various areas, but not aesthetics or design.

By community input, I don't mean highly-trained or highly-skilled artists (like IngusDei, or others who've created Warframe concepts that have gone on to influence DE greatly). I'm talking about the input of us, the masses, telling them what we want in an aesthetic design as players.

DE has never, to my knowledge, listened to us in that way. Why should they? 

I pointed out mechanics and gameplay because those are things we happen to understand on fundamental and intricate levels after years of gameplay. 

Even if we're right on IngusDei's skin being better than the current design (and trust me, we are), that doesn't set a precedent for DE to accept our input on aesthetics and design. Most of us aren't graphic or traditional artists. DE is under no obligation to accept our input, nor should they liberally seek it.

If we like a skin, we can buy it. If we hate it, we won't buy it.

But petitioning DE into using our favored skin won't work.

I specifically said what developers do on design, aesthetics, and artistic vision. I'm well aware of DE's penchant for listening to us on other matters. But with regard to design, DE is much like other devs and rightly so.

Okay. I'm not going to contest this point any further. You're convinced that the skin could have been implemented with relative ease.

Oh, you're free to demand whatever you want. My point is it's pointless and selfish and will not work, in my humble opinion.

Whether you believe what I posted earlier (that I dislike the new skin and would've loved IngusDei's skin) is also, quite frankly, irrelevant. I have no reason to lie.

As for aesthetics, I've addressed it in my previous post and above, but I'll address it again.

DE is under no obligation to seek our input, opinions, crowd-sourced ideas, or suggestions on artwork, design, aesthetics, and artistic vision.

Another area that matches that is lore and story. We may make up our own lore all the time, but DE is under no obligation to accept our lore and story submissions when we disagree or dislike their storytelling choices. Many hated the Operators and supplied alternate theories or ignored them all together. DE didn't, however, backtrack and say, "Okay, guys. We make the game for you, you don't like Operators, so we'll remove those and put in something that explains what the Tenno are in a way you prefer."

On the flipside, DE has chosen to seek our input, opinions, crowd-sourced ideas and suggestions on gaming mechanics, gameplay, ability tweaks and other things of that nature because we are gamers first, all of us. It's our expertise (regardless of the fact that many of us are highly skilled artists or authors), and that is the area DE trusts us to give them our input on the most. 

That was my point and the distinction I was making.

PBR, lighting, and the other things you mentioned are improvements to the game, yes, and DE routinely shows us the progression of these improvements.

Of course, we should care about aesthetics, but no, DE is under no obligation to heed us when we make petitions about design or their artistic vision.

This doesn't change what I said. Part of the reason we love DE and Warframe is their unique artistic vision, taste, and choices.

Every story, every movie, every game, every comic, and every piece of artwork is inspired by those that came before. Every artist stands on the shoulders of those who came before them. 

This is as true for DE as it is for IngusDei, so if your point is DE's artistic vision is made up of more than just their core art team's original ideas, yes, and? So what? 

Nowhere in my post did I claim it existed in a bubble, so you're refuting a point I never made, and reading into my post things I never said.

I'm lost. When did anyone ever claim his design harmed the aesthetics of the game? We all love IngusDei's work, so you've truly lost me here.

I can no more silence, or tell anyone to be quiet than you. I'm not a moderator. I don't have that power. I do have a voice and strong opinions. If you disagree with them, that's fine, but changing them into opinions I don't have and haven't espoused (that everyone should be quiet) won't work.

We may want DE to care what we think of the visuals, but reality and facts show they don't have to, and often don't. We hated Mag's Asuri (I think it's Asuri), but they followed through and added it to the game. 

You mistake realism for submissiveness, and you continue to mistake my opinions and points as arguments that fail to persuade you.

Have a good day.

The petition maker is rather modest and considerate of other poster's feelings in spite of being convinced that he was being selfish by you. Nothing selfish about the petition at all though.

This message of "Your opinions don't matter" is self fullfilling prophecy more than enlightening, and posting it is contradictory to what it expouses, because if it does not matter, then why even bother with them?

You were not forced to come to the topic either.

Buying skins is certainly no obligation when DE does not put up what we want sure, though you are calling having to pay for a product that is being asked for, "selfish". Which is complete business-side style spin. These skins are not gifts, we have to cough up money to get them, there is an exchange going on. this is where what we want is especially important. People want to pay for an improved product. 

"DE is under no obligation"..............Please, this isn't court, this is nuanced discussion and opportunity for compliance with the audience. They are free to not do that just as we are free to not give them money and are free to criticize them for their decision.

What I said about the love for DE, most certainly changes what you said, as their aesthetic cues are not formed in a bubble and have much roots in the audience, which is largely what was loved about DE. What we think especially matters if they want to retain money. If DE decided to turn all the frames into Beast Machines designs, then that certainly has an effect on product image and certainly isn't something to be left uncriticized let alone petitioned against. We don't want such things to add up to trends under this notion that our input on aesthetics is irrelevant, DE knows how untrue that is inside, no matter how much they had a problem with the Ember deluxe mohawk being disagreed with.

Ignusdei is inspired most certainly, as I have pointed them out in other topics, but then he is not the one refusing to work with DE again.

Ignusei's art didn't actually hurt the art of the product, and DE have used his other designs even after the fact. So DE's artistic vision being a noni-issue, was the point I was making.

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

53 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You lose my respect even you start of your response with lame buzz words like "shill". I was going to refund, but I won't dignify post any further.

Refund what? You do this in every topic. Defend nigh every wrong decision by DE.

Edited October 20, 2017 by UrielColtan

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Refund what? You do this in every topic. Defend nigh every bad decision by DE.

Autocorrect went wild with that post. Fixed

[UrielColtan]

My bad then, FYI, I will stick to buzzwords and phrases like "Edgy Korean MMO" instead if that is ok with you.

[Rhekemi]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:39 AM, UrielColtan said:

The petition maker is rather modest and considerate of other poster's feelings in spite of being convinced that he was being selfish by you. Nothing selfish about the petition at all though.

 

While I did plan on leaving this thread alone, you quoting and responding to me with untruths is baffling.

You're very fond of telling other members what they actually mean, even when we explicitly state exactly what we mean. Grimm explicitly stated that his wishes were selfish, but he didn't mean it, I "convinced him". Wow.

You can try to win an argument by using words that personalize and target others, you can try to win an argument by putting words in others mouths, and you can try and win by characterizing people as "shills", "submissive", "soft shoe capping bad business decisions" or otherwise carrying water for DE, you will still be wrong.

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Which is complete business-side style spin.

 

You're free to your erroneous interpretation of my opinions, but they'll still be wrong.

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These skins are not gifts, we have to cough up money to get them, there is an exchange going on. this is where what we want is especially important. People want to pay for an improved product.

 

You continue to ignore the fact that our wishes, opinions, and feedback (as regards skin design, aesthetics, artwork, and artistic vision) have never been taken into account. 

On mechanics, on gameplay, on abilities, on weapons, on the things that DE trusts us to give informed feedback on as gamers, yes, what we want is especially important.

This isn't conjecture, it's fact supported by DE's history of acceptance of our feedback on the game, but not on aesthetics. 

For someone so willing to accuse others of business spin, you do realize you're using it when you say "we just want an improved product" to talk about skins which the playerbase has never been able to influence with feedback, right?

I honestly am baffled. It's never happened, and it isn't, in my estimation, going to happen now. It doesn't matter how much we want the skin, it is DE's art team's decision and a petition cannot (again, in my mind, and based on the history of the game) influence that.

What I'd ask you to do is separate your umbrage over IngusDei's firing, the current Ember skin's ugliness, and our collective wish for the Ingus' deluxe skin from the petition.

I know it seems like a perfectly reasonable way to get DE to "comply with the audience" in your words, but DE has never made decisions about artistic vision based on what we (the general playerbase/masses) want.

Don't conflate TennoGen submissions (sent in through a system DE created to streamline and structure skin submissions), highly trained artists like IngusDei and others who've designed freelance skins, or artwork that inspired 'frames like Atlas with our wishes as the masses.

Don't conflate our ability to influence things like gameplay with our ability to influence design choices. Much like lore and story, DE's discretion overrides our own when it comes to art. 

One example I can actually think of is the Operator outfit that resembled the WW2 Japanese flag. In that case, the community's revulsion came from Korean and Korean Americans, and anyone else who felt it was insensitive (myself included). I wrote a long post about how I thought it couldn't hurt DE to remove the skin, and how those who objected had a strong point/case.

DE altered the skin and it was the right call.

You may not like what I have to say, you may disagree, you may think I'm just siding with DE (you're wrong), you may think I'm a liar who doesn't like IngusDei's skin (lol, still wrong), but the facts are borne out by Warframe's history.

There is only one thing that can give the community IngusDei's ember skin, and that's DE and IngusDei mending their relationship. That's the bigger picture, the goal we should hope for, not just a single skin.

I will state this again, clearly. 

Just petitioning for the skin is inherently selfish.

It doesn't take into account IngusDei's lack of a place in DE's art team, it doesn't take into account what went down (or how the art team felt) about what transpired that led to Ingus being let go.

Everyone involved is a human being, and those human beings aren't being considered one bit by a petition. 

The petition is about the skin, our wishes, and getting what we want and love.

It is selfish.

I won't sign it or support it.

I do want IngusDei's skin for Ember, but more importantly, I want IngusDei back together with DE. I think we all want that, but this petition doesn't have anything to do with that bigger picture.

What happened, what went down, was about more than just the Ember skin. 

What's more, the Ember skin is irrelevant. IngusDei wasn't let go because he made a badass skin. IngusDei was let go because there was a conflict, a rift, between people who used to work together.

That is what needs to get mended. That's what needs to be fixed. Once that happens, then the Ember skin could follow, and many more IngusDei deluxe skins as well.

But for me, it's about the people, not the skin.

I will live just fine without the skin. I wish I had it, but I don't. I don't like the new one, and I won't buy it when it's on sale.

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"DE is under no obligation"..............Please, this isn't court

 

Huh? Why do you have a problem with the way I speak?

You continue to find ways to personalize the argument and characterize others. 

Quote

What I said about the love for DE, most certainly changes what you said, as their aesthetic cues are not formed in a bubble and have much roots in the audience, which is largely what was loved about DE.

1

There's a difference between being inspired by others and willing to accept fan concepts, designs (like IngusDei's), and TennoGen skins, but this in no way diminishes DE's core art design which is, and has been, the foundation of the game, its factions, Prime skins, levels, and basically every art asset in the game.

DE's original designs are what makes Warframe Warframe. Fan designs, concepts, accepted Warframe designs like Atlas and TennoGen skins build on what DE's core art team created.

Quote

What we think especially matters if they want to retain money. If DE decided to turn all the frames into Beast Machines designs, then that certainly has an effect on product image and certainly isn't something to be left uncriticized let alone petitioned against.

1

Hyperbole and exaggeration isn't a way to win an argument, either. I'd rather stick to facts, like the fact that we traditionally cannot and do not influence DE's artistic vision or their lore and story.

You can disagree with me on it, but it's the way it is.

Traditionally, we cannot influence DE's vision on artwork or story.

Gameplay and mechanics, the stuff DE trusts us to help them with because we're all gamers? Yes!

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We don't want such things to add up to trends under this notion that our input on aesthetics is irrelevant, DE knows how untrue that is inside, no matter how much they had a problem with the Ember deluxe mohawk being disagreed with.

 

I think this is part of the problem. You see what went down as a simple disagreement over the mohawk and DE being stubborn. I was here when that megathread about the design was made. I remember learning it was much more than just the mohawk, but how the matter was handled by both sides. No one was blameless.

Oh, and by the way, I never said our input on aesthetics was irrelevant, I said we don't have the power to influence DE on artistic vision, and they are under no obligation to listen to us. With gameplay, mechanics, bugs, map issues, ease of use, abilities, technical issues, and so much more they are obligated to listen to us, and rightly so.

They don't have to listen to us on art, though. That's my point, not that what we think is irrelevant.

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Ignusdei is inspired most certainly, as I have pointed them out in other topics, but then he is not the one refusing to work with DE again.

1

One has nothing to do with the other. My point is every artist is inspired by another, but that does not diminish DE's art team's achievements or their artistic vision. They may make some bad skins we hate, but their artistic vision is the part of the foundation of the game and what we love about Warframe.

You keep trying to take that away from them and ascribe it to inspirations from elsewhere and the audience's tastes, and I don't know why. Baffling.

Quote

Ignusei's art didn't actually hurt the art of the product, and DE have used his other designs even after the fact.

1

No one ever said it did, and I mentioned his Mag skin (twice). Moot point.

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 So DE's artistic vision being a noni-issue, was the point I was making.

Not following. I never said IngusDei compromised DE's artistic vision, not ever, so I don't know why you've connected the two issues.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Grimm]

10 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

When I offered my opinions, I didn't foresee my post starting an argument, I'll admit. 

I'll also admit that once an argument or debate starts, I'm often game for it.

But yes, this is just dragging the topic down. I'll see myself out.

@Grimm , good luck with the petition and your petitioners.

your point you made is welcome because it let other people point out these issues in other areas so it's fine

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, Rhekemi said:

While I did plan on leaving this thread alone, you quoting and responding to me with untruths is baffling.

You're very fond of telling other members what they actually mean, even when we explicitly state exactly what we mean. Grimm explicitly stated that his wishes were selfish, but he didn't mean it, I "convinced him". Wow.

You can try to win an argument by using words that personalize and target others, you can try to win an argument by putting words in others mouths, and you can try and win by characterizing people as "shills", "submissive", "soft shoe capping bad business decisions" or otherwise carrying water for DE, you will still be wrong.

You're free to your erroneous interpretation of my opinions, but they'll still be wrong.

You continue to ignore the fact that our wishes, opinions, and feedback (as regards skin design, aesthetics, artwork, and artistic vision) have never been taken into account. 

On mechanics, on gameplay, on abilities, on weapons, on the things that DE trusts us to give informed feedback on as gamers, yes, what we want is especially important.

This isn't conjecture, it's fact supported by DE's history of acceptance of our feedback on the game, but not on aesthetics. 

For someone so willing to accuse others of business spin, you do realize you're using it when you say "we just want an improved product" to talk about skins which the playerbase has never been able to influence with feedback, right?

I honestly am baffled. It's never happened, and it isn't, in my estimation, going to happen now. It doesn't matter how much we want the skin, it is DE's art team's decision and a petition cannot (again, in my mind, and based on the history of the game) influence that.

What I'd ask you to do is separate your umbrage over IngusDei's firing, the current Ember skin's ugliness, and our collective wish for the Ingus' deluxe skin from the petition.

I know it seems like a perfectly reasonable way to get DE to "comply with the audience" in your words, but DE has never made decisions about artistic vision based on what we (the general playerbase/masses) want.

Don't conflate TennoGen submissions (sent in through a system DE created to streamline and structure skin submissions), highly trained artists like IngusDei and others who've designed freelance skins, or artwork that inspired 'frames like Atlas with our wishes as the masses.

Don't conflate our ability to influence things like gameplay with our ability to influence design choices. Much like lore and story, DE's discretion overrides our own when it comes to art. 

One example I can actually think of is the Operator outfit that resembled the WW2 Japanese flag. In that case, the community's revulsion came from Korean and Korean Americans, and anyone else who felt it was insensitive (myself included). I wrote a long post about how I thought it couldn't hurt DE to remove the skin, and how those who objected had a strong point/case.

DE altered the skin and it was the right call.

You may not like what I have to say, you may disagree, you may think I'm just siding with DE (you're wrong), you may think I'm a liar who doesn't like IngusDei's skin (lol, still wrong), but the facts are borne out by Warframe's history.

There is only one thing that can give the community IngusDei's ember skin, and that's DE and IngusDei mending their relationship. That's the bigger picture, the goal we should hope for, not just a single skin.

I will state this again, clearly. 

Just petitioning for the skin is inherently selfish.

It doesn't take into account IngusDei's lack of a place in DE's art team, it doesn't take into account what went down (or how the art team felt) about what transpired that led to Ingus being let go.

Everyone involved is a human being, and those human beings aren't being considered one bit by a petition. 

The petition is about the skin, our wishes, and getting what we want and love.

It is selfish.

I won't sign it or support it.

I do want IngusDei's skin for Ember, but more importantly, I want IngusDei back together with DE. I think we all want that, but this petition doesn't have anything to do with that bigger picture.

What happened, what went down, was about more than just the Ember skin. 

What's more, the Ember skin is irrelevant. IngusDei wasn't let go because he made a badass skin. IngusDei was let go because there was a conflict, a rift, between people who used to work together.

That is what needs to get mended. That's what needs to be fixed. Once that happens, then the Ember skin could follow, and many more IngusDei deluxe skins as well.

But for me, it's about the people, not the skin.

I will live just fine without the skin. I wish I had it, but I don't. I don't like the new one, and I won't buy it when it's on sale.

Huh? Why do you have a problem with the way I speak?

You continue to find ways to personalize the argument and characterize others. 

There's a difference between being inspired by others and willing to accept fan concepts, designs (like IngusDei's), and TennoGen skins, but this in no way diminishes DE's core art design which is, and has been, the foundation of the game, its factions, Prime skins, levels, and basically every art asset in the game.

DE's original designs are what makes Warframe Warframe. Fan designs, concepts, accepted Warframe designs like Atlas and TennoGen skins build on what DE's core art team created.

Hyperbole and exaggeration isn't a way to win an argument, either. I'd rather stick to facts, like the fact that we traditionally cannot and do not influence DE's artistic vision or their lore and story.

You can disagree with me on it, but it's the way it is.

Traditionally, we cannot influence DE's vision on artwork or story.

Gameplay and mechanics, the stuff DE trusts us to help them with because we're all gamers? Yes!

I think this is part of the problem. You see what went down as a simple disagreement over the mohawk and DE being stubborn. I was here when that megathread about the design was made. I remember learning it was much more than just the mohawk, but how the matter was handled by both sides. No one was blameless.

Oh, and by the way, I never said our input on aesthetics were irrelevant, I said we don't have the power to influence DE on artistic vision, and they are under no obligation to listen to us. With gameplay, mechanics, bugs, map issues, ease of use, abilities, technical issues, and so much more they are obligated to listen to us, and rightly so.

They don't have to listen to us on art, though. That's my point, not that what we think is irrelevant.

One has nothing to do with the other. My point is every artist is inspired by another, but that does not diminish DE's art team's achievements or their artistic vision. They may make some bad skins we hate, but their artistic vision is the part of the foundation of the game and what we love about Warframe.

You keep trying to take that away from them and ascribe it to inspirations from elsewhere and the audience's tastes, and I don't know why. Baffling.

No one ever said it did, and I mentioned his Mag skin (twice). Moot point.

Not following. I never said IngusDei compromised DE's artistic vision, not ever, so I don't know why you've connected the two issues.

You are no more obligated to be here anymore than people are obligated to buy skins, yet here you are, funny that.

I use accurate descriptors and cite examples of the things I refer to. What you expressed is pointless fatalism,  calling other people "selfish" and finger wagging at them for "not respecting DE's wishes.". So submissive is an accurate descriptor, no matter how unsavory  it sounds. Such a position is not supposed to be savory, which is why you are bucking back and being persistent here. Though you are directing that new found vigor at the wrong people, if you truly do not like the new skin nor want other potential future bad decisions of similar nature. That is, if you are being genuine in your claim to begin with. People can claim many things while acting contrary to it or not really internalizing it, and I am not exactly a gullible resident in the world of The Invention of Lying starring Ricky Jervais.

The audience's tastes is particularly relevant to what's put in, added on to, and subsequently enjoyed, on top of concepts being borrowed from the audience to begin with. Sorry you seem to be unaware of something this basic.

If new stuff we don't like piles up, especially in regard to character design, then we are not exactly enjoying the original aesthetics at that point either.

You are just putting up esoteric metrics on what DE should listen to us on. What we think of the look and presentation is actually important, especially in a free to play game that does not provide most of the cosmetics, and particularly deluxe skins, as reward through simply playing the game. It's a big part of the cash flow and no doubt why they have been so full speed ahead with Tennogen rotations(Also not made by DE.). Steve even reinforces this in some of his old Sunday streams, our buying skins largely supports the game. It can't be reiterated any harder that how we think things look is rather substantial. Part of Frost'   cloth would still be bulky and lopsided if I and others did not bring it up to Steve in his own stream.

You also seem to have been weened in the "inb4" generation, which surmises that mentioning something prior, automatically makes that segment of discussion beyond reproach afterward. Mentioning Mag deluxe skin does not exactly help your position at all I am afraid, only the opposite. Your mentioning of DE having to pay Ignusdei if they "hire" him back and use his Ember deluxe, fell right on its face, given Mag Deluxe. I know inb4 is intensifying, but it has no more power here in discussion with me than "first" or "jynx".

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by UrielColtan

[Rhekemi]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

You are no more obligated to be here anymore than people are obligated to buy skins, yet here you are, funny that.

1

I'm not sure when I said I was obligated to be here. It's clearly a choice.

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

I use accurate descriptors and cite examples of the things I refer to.

 

You characterize, accuse (as you have accused me of lying and misrepresenting my claims, hiding my true feelings), and reinterpret as suits your argument. That's not the way to debate or win an argument or a way to treat others who you don't know.

I think, maybe, you make things personal because you take things personally (as you did when I said this petition was selfish). That's something you need to avoid in debate and arguments. When you make and take things personally, that's all you see. You don't see the other person's points, you can never concede anything yourself (which you have yet to do, and continue to ignore the bigger picture), and you become fixated on scoring points.

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

What you expressed is pointless fatalism,  calling other people "selfish" and finger wagging at them for "not respecting DE's wishes.". So submissive is an accurate descriptor, no matter how unsavory  it sounds. Such a position is not supposed to be savory, which is why you are bucking back and being persistent here.

16

I know you want this to be true, but wishing it was will never make it so. 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

Though you are directing that new found vigor at the wrong people, if you truly do not like the new skin nor want other potential future bad decisions of similar nature. That is, if you are being genuine in your claim to begin with. People can claim many things while acting contrary to it or not really internalizing it, and I am not exactly a gullible resident in the world of The Invention of Lying starring Ricky Jervais.

5

This is amazing. Through the power of the internet and your superior intellect, you're again able to tell that what I (and in the other case Grimm) have said isn't really what we mean. 

You're amazing.  

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

The audience's tastes is particularly relevant to what's put in, added on to, and subsequently enjoyed, on top of concepts being borrowed from the audience to begin with. Sorry you seem to be unaware of something this basic.

3

Then why, if you'd care to explain, has community pushback on other designs we've hated never made a dent? 

Casting a wide net and discussing aesthetics and tastes is fine. You'll hit some examples where our opinions do matter, and some where they don't.

But when we drill down to the specifics of deluxe skins like the one in question, there is no precedent in Warframe's history for the kind of change you seek, especially through a petition.

If that were true, Nova Asuri wouldn't exist. Neither would DE's not-so-well-received interpretation of IngusDei's Loki deluxe skin.

Again, DE is not only under no obligation to heed us, I firmly believe that they won't. I've expressed why in 3 or 4 different posts now, but let me put it this way.

When the undesired Ember skin is implemented, I want you to remember this thread.

If DE mends its relationship with IngusDei, and that produces the skin we wanted for Ember (and so much more), I want you to remember this thread.

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

You are just putting up esoteric metrics on what DE should listen to us on.

 

If going by the community's actual history of being influential on some aspects of the game, and less influential on artistic vision is esoteric, then you and I have two very different understandings of the word esoteric. 

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

What we think of the look and presentation is actually important, especially in a free to play game that does not provide most of the cosmetics, and particularly deluxe skins, as reward through simply playing the game. It's a big part of the cash flow and no doubt why they have been so full speed ahead with Tennogen rotations(Also not made by DE.).

4

You do realize that I mentioned TennoGen specifically to point out the difference, to draw the distinction, between that kind of community input and this petition, right?

TennoGen is a structured, streamlined system with guidelines (and a selection process) that builds on rigs, shapes, and models DE's core design team created.

That cannot be conflated with a petition asking DE to drop their current design and adopt one they've chosen not to. You read TennoGen, completely missed my point, and reappropriated it to reinforce your own flawed argument and the idea that this, or any, petition is the answer.

The answer is just not buying the skin (that's just as powerful a statement as making a petition, which DE won't read or heed).

The answer is DE and IngusDei rebuilding their relationship so we not only see some version of his Ember deluxe, but he's back working with a great art team, and they him, and we get more deluxe skins.

But acknowledging that means you have to acknowledge that it isn't in our hands as customers, it's in DE and IngusDei's as human beings who's working relationship broke down.

Acknowledging that means realizing that it isn't about Ember's silly mohawk, but what went down and how. 

But I fully expect you to continue to ignore my point about the bigger picture which has been there from the start.

The petition doesn't accomplish what you want it to, or what you think it does. Yes, it is a way to voice your opinion, and I can't argue with that and I don't want to silence it. I just have a strong opinion that it won't affect actual change, and that opinion is based on the community's history of influential feedback on everything except major artistic choices like this.

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

Steve even reinforces this in some of his old Sunday streams, our buying skins largely supports the game. It can't be reiterated any harder that how we think things look is rather substantial. Part of Frost'   cloth would still be bulky and lopsided if I and others did not bring it up to Steve in his own stream.

2

I hope you realize cloth physics, and PBR which you noted earlier, aren't comparable to this petition. 

Cloth physics and PBR aren't about changing DE's artistic vision to suit what we want as players (and DE doesn't want to do at the time).

They're both about improving existing art assets. Cloth looks, feels, acts more real. Metals and golds look more like real metal and gold (in the case of PBR).

But indeed, DE does care what we think about aesthetics (which is why they include fan works). However, as I said in the previous post, those works either come from designers like IngusDei, the structured system of TennoGen, or fan concept artists like the person who drew Atlas/the brawler.

We don't disagree on those points, I just don't conflate or equate the above community influence with a petition asking DE to drop one design and adopt another. There is a precedent for the former, and not the latter.

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

You also seem to have been weened in the "inb4" generation, which surmises that mentioning something prior, automatically makes that segment of discussion beyond reproach afterward. Mentioning Mag deluxe skin does not exactly help your position at all I am afraid, only the opposite. Your mentioning of DE having to pay Ignusdei if they "hire" him back and use his Ember deluxe, fell right on its face, given Mag Deluxe. I know inb4 is intensifying, but it has no more power here in discussion with me than "first" or "jynx".

 

I'm not from that generation and your entire point makes no sense.

As you've done repeatedly, you've interpreted my intention as something it isn't.

I mentioned Mag deluxe for one reason in my last post. You continue to assert that IngusDei's artwork doesn't harm DE's artistic vision, and I continue to remind you that I never said it did, never made that point, and don't think that. Mag's deluxe being implemented after they parted ways is proof of that. I'm not sure how you took what I said, but you've either missed my point or you're choosing to ignore it and want to argue, score a point, and dispute things. 

You're welcome to, but it doesn't change the meaning of what I actually said.

As for paying IngusDei, yes, you pointed out where I was wrong and I never returned to that point. If you think I'm someone who always thinks he's right and never makes a mistake, you're wrong there, too. (And, lol, again, I mentioned Mag deluxe is a contradiction to my own point in that post, before you replied.)

You're bent on arguing over things that aren't even issues, and I don't think there's anything left for me to say. You might reply and change my mind, though. Time will tell. Have a good day, man.

[SenorClipClop]

The new skin looks pretty cool! I'm digging the phoenix vibe. The only thing that's a little weird about it is the default coloring they have on her. For a fire-based Warframe, having a whole ton of sea-green in her coloration seems a bit counter-intuitive. Changing her tints around to more fiery colors (reds, yellows, greys, browns) might make it more appealing.

[GinKenshin]

Tbh, yes...the old skin was better, it’s concept was way better too, a ‘burnt’ side of a ‘beauty’, though a little cliche, was done amazingly....now we have something even more cliche (Phoenix skin for a fire frame so original!) and not really implemented correctly....also it’s kinda getting boring with the Mohawk, even some tennogen skins are going for that direction....

 

this has to give a good competition to the prime look. Imo if a deluxe skin makes me do another look using the deluxe skin, then that is a success.....this skin imo is not a success. 

 

I dont think DE ever gave in to the community about a thing like this (changing default helms for frames doesn’t count, that’s a different thing)...I really hope they discuss this, it’s gonna be such a waste

[Fylas]

I just wished they'd stop pretending like ignus never existed and just have  a proper discussion about the whole incident with them. Get it over with instead of pretending LALA LAAA  NEVER HEARD OF EM for a like a year now .... this is so frigging childish and sad

[Mr._Clean]

Have to say... I REALLY do not like that deluxe skin the OP has linked. Honestly the whole thing is bad and they should scrap that too.

[phoenix1992]

12 hours ago, Mr._Clean said:

Have to say... I REALLY do not like that deluxe skin the OP has linked. Honestly the whole thing is bad and they should scrap that too.

I think it is more reasonable for us to expect tweaking of the skin.

[Mr._Clean]

11 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I think it is more reasonable for us to expect tweaking of the skin.

Fair enough. I understand they put a lot of work into these, and a lot of them are the work of one person with a passion for the frame. I just... this one doesn't look so great. Not really one thing I like about it.

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, Mr._Clean said:

Fair enough. I understand they put a lot of work into these, and a lot of them are the work of one person with a passion for the frame. I just... this one doesn't look so great. Not really one thing I like about it.

While I do agree with the general statement, the shoulder armor is neat. There are also cool details on some parts.

Too bad they are ruined by the rest.

[IgnusDei]

1 hour ago, Mr._Clean said:

Fair enough. I understand they put a lot of work into these, and a lot of them are the work of one person with a passion for the frame. I just... this one doesn't look so great. Not really one thing I like about it.

You always tell whether or not an artist is passionate through his works.

Edited October 22, 2017 by IgnusDei

[CY13ERPUNK]

On 8/18/2017 at 2:21 PM, Oranji said:

Better prepare for more of these... "unique"... skins.

TBPH i totally get why this skin weirds a lot of ppl out

but ingame it is a pretty badass skin

i also think that DE's 'new' ember deluxe is going to be fine ingame, BUT i am still pissed that they wont ALSO put Ignusdei's original deluxe design in 

yes DE's 'fire chicken extreme' is another skin just like the above nova, but DE has always been about weird designs, so whatevs 

the thing that i am most upset/sad/angry/etc is the refusal to put THIS awesome design into the game : 

[Aldisun]

It's too bad we won't get to see the cool version get added. But I always remember on issues like this that it is best to vote with my wallet. If DE wants to add silly chicken skins to the game that's fine. I just won't buy them.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Aldisun
spelling

[phoenix1992]

19 hours ago, Aldisun said:

It's too bad we won't get to see the cool version get added. But I always remember on issues like this that it is best to vote with my wallet. If DE wants to add silly chicken skins to the game that's fine. I just won't buy them.

While we don't have the data (because DE will not release it), it is pretty safe to say that in the case of both Ember and Nova deluxe, tennogen items are overshadowing them in purchases.
And tennogen are pain to acquire on PC (no platinum purchase, can't be gifted and so on).

[Putrid_Idiot]

3 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

While we don't have the data (because DE will not release it), it is pretty safe to say that in the case of both Ember and Nova deluxe, tennogen items are overshadowing them in purchases.
And tennogen are pain to acquire on PC (no platinum purchase, can't be gifted and so on).

what do you mean? i buy tennogen all the time with no issues at all?
are you using steam? use steam to launch warframe.

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, Putrid_Idiot said:

what do you mean? i buy tennogen all the time with no issues at all?
are you using steam? use steam to launch warframe.

Tennogen items are not actual *Steam* Items (they are not in your steam inventory, unlike of the rubedo and phased skins).
As I said on PC - can't be purchased with platinum and can't be gifted (can't be gifted neither from the game or from steam), which is major turn off and the main reason why Tennogen skins are "rare".

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

id like it if it looked more phoenix like ..as is its not appealing 

[Sziklamester]

If the tennogen skins just cost around 2 dollar then it could be much popular among the playerbase. The 5-6 euro / dollar "there is a bad valute change in this case' are normally 75 platinum which 5 dollar but real money and many peoples just want to use platinum in trades. The real freebie players whom not spending a cent on the game won't buy it because costs money but those whom spending money anyway maybe buying some if they wish / like.

I personally not bought some because the prices is not match with my salary and not want to spend all my earned money on skins. Otherwise nice concept and good to have more skins for everything.