Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[tnccs215]

28 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

Ash and Mag are the frames i tend to play the most nowadays. 

I am not saying criticism is bad just that trying to get min max players removed from the game will never work. 

Now i am sure you have given your fair share of examples on how to improve Ash already but that is still the way to go. 

These focus changes are very very light on information and for most of us it takes less then 30 seconds to find the flaws in all the bad examples used. 

Arent that why we all are here posting?

To give DE examples as to why these changes presented so far uses bad scenarios and examples on how to use the focus powers that seems to go against both flavour text and specified intentions on what the various schools should actually do. 

Giving Madurai a stealth power as an example just shows a major disconnection between what the school is said to focus(pun intended) on and what they actually presented as and example for it. 

nothing about "

Loki—alone in the Plains—is doing as he pleases. He decides to play a bit of a trick on some Grineer Tusk units he detects nearby. By slipping into Transference his operator cloaks himself ; each second spent cloaked significantly increases the damage of the next attack. After enough sneaking, the Operator fires and the Grineer are no more."

That is thematically nothing like Madurai is presented:

They followed the path of Engage The Enemy. Their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes, could vanquish an opponent before he had the chance to steel himself. Speed and savagery characterized this school.

Nothing in the Madurai OP example is swift, uncompromising or reckless. Nor does it speak about vanquishing a foe before they can steel themselves. 

The example is plain bad and makes players confused and probably not a little bit worried. 

If a player has chosen Madurai because they like to go with the archtype of a warrior or fighter they dont want to use powers that makes them feel like a sneaky rogue. 

As a long time DnD player i cant understand how DE thought that we the players would react when the suddenly started to mix abilities across the various schools. 

Because judging by this thread its not joy. 

 

 

 

DE has demonstrated a shocking absence of awareness about anything. 

- they failed to represent well enough their ideas

- even in this vagueness, their ideas seem to be generally considered anything between insufficient and terrible, with the few defences raised usually relying on what wasn't  said

- this means that they failed to accurately assess what the community wants and how much they want it

- and even ignoring the community's wishes, the ideas are not healthy for the game as it is - the new introductions are awfully redundant, tacked on and frankly unnecessary, being a complete and utter waste of development time,  energy and resources that could have been put to better use

- and on what isn't new, they failed to fix or even mention the vast majority of the issues that plague the system they are reworking - namely convergence and operator movement 

- and has the cherry on top of the cake, they fail to understand basic role archetypes (that they admitted to be basing themselves on) so old and ingrained into the concept of combat role-playing gaming that I, who never played a DnD game, can come up with better translations than theirs. 

They should really take a break from the crunch period, because the effects of it are showing. 

 

[DustyFlash]

Hello, please make the second Residual for Zenurik something thats actually usefull, melee channeling has never been useful, its unbalanced in costs and poor in use, only good when using life strike with rage. As for the energy regen, how long does it last, and how much does it give and how big is the bubble, since it sounds very interesting to where we can stack bubbles to where we could get a pretty good energy regen hopefully.

And Unairu Damage Reflect should be changed as well, as damage redirection is very inefficient, enemies can't kill themselves at higher levels, due to high health/high armor, also the high damage will kill us before we kill them.

[BlueberryIsWar]

1 hour ago, Rubicon2.0-EGT- said:

Soooo many question and suggestion so we might get delay with 2months :D

I called a PoE release in 2018 already. ;)

On more serious note, they probably will just rush it and make everyone unhappy about the focus changes. Because they just can't really commit to one thing, sadly.

The things to take other abilities from other trees in the current one is awesome for instance, but it requires you to max out the other focus trees. A lot of MMO by now have implemented this cross talent/skill idea, and nearly all of them do it in a better way. Where you can just cherry pick already unlocked nodes from another tree at your own will at any point. Not requiring you to max them just to make it more grindy and allowing a huge build diversity.

They could make it so that you can have X amount of Nodes active at the same time (kinda like the current Mod System from weapons and warframes) without any arbitrary rules of how to mix and match them. Could be awesome. Could lead to OP and interesting builds. But doesn't seem to be the idea yet, essentially just telling you to gather million of focus affinity to then all play basically the same thing in the end. (They also could limit the number of warframe passives you can select to 2 or 3. Which means you won't be locked in to a focus school because of a warframe passive you want and you also can't just go with all warframe passives and ignore operator completely).

[neokiva]

Ya know not to be pessimistic or anything but since when has de ever listened to feedback? Especially when they are nerfing something.

 

[BlueberryIsWar]

@neokiva actually they do some time. They had a lot of hotfixes after the hydroid rework. Though it could be that the main influencer here was Brozime and not the community outrage...

So maybe we can all hope that @Brozime picks up all the suggestions and makes another awesome video about it. He seems to be our best hope at the moment.

[neokiva]

Here's hoping maybe @TacticalPotato and @Brozime and other partners do kick up a fuss.

[Atekron]

1 hour ago, Rubicon2.0-EGT- said:

Soooo many question and suggestion so we might get delay with 2months :D

and still will one month left to end of 2017

[Nilani]

or maybe they dont wanna kick up a fuss when they dont know all of the stuff thats going into the update being in the spotlight and all

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, Ceramor said:

or maybe they dont wanna kick up a fuss when they dont know all of the stuff thats going into the update being in the spotlight and all

Right, but as tnccs215 pointed out, "We don't know what they didn't show us! Maybe that's the amazing part," is an extraordinarily weak defence. This is the preview which DE chose to give us, and it's awful.

[tnccs215]

43 minutes ago, krodha36 said:

Why don't you just make operator mode like dark souls?

-ridiculous difficulty 

-heavily skill based gameplay (complete with stamina system)

-gameplay where every weapon can clear every room (only in the right hands)

-intuitive control over the movement of your character

People who want a little more spice in their gameplay can just switch to operator

Focus less on making operator mode situational, give it the strength to stand on its own

 

 

 

 

I'll leave now..

 

Interesting... But ultimately unfeasible. 

Well, unless we have missions exclusively Operator centered. 

Like, the issue isn't operators' capabilities, but enemies'. "though, but fair" games demand telegraphy and a certain amount of predictableness to shine - something that enemies in Warframe very much don't.  One of the biggest issues I have with snipers is how enemies literally snap running into another direction, making any attempt to predict them in the slightest next to pointless. 

And these is all without talking about guns. It's not that it's impossible to make a highly skill-based game feature projectile weapons - but that's the key word. projectile. Not. hit. SCAN!

The only feasible thing that can be done is to take only Dark Souls-like boss encounters - that is, Eidola fights. We can easily find some lore excuse for you not being able to use your frame to fight them, and that makes it possible to create the whole fight around Operators, and a much more skill-based gameplay, without having to turn the whole rest of the game upside down. 

[Atekron]

7 minutes ago, neokiva said:

Ya know not to be pessimistic or anything but since when has de ever listened to feedback? Especially when they are nerfing something.

sometimes they listen, in case of oberon and hydroid they follow feedback, kind of, but in over cases they are very stubborn - kuva endless mission, universal vacuum, hema and couple more

[neokiva]

Well with the way de reveals information about upcoming releases, we can expect this absolute mess of a situation to continue. where the wait and see attitude to complaints means de can't preempt it and fix it.

[Nilani]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Right, but as tnccs215 pointed out, "We don't know what they didn't show us! Maybe that's the amazing part," is an extraordinarily weak defence. This is the preview which DE chose to give us, and it's awful.

still kicking up too big of a fuss when we dont know the whole picture is still not a good idea, and id rather try to be optimistic about the update than be pessimistic about it

[BlueberryIsWar]

@Ceramor but that is a bit a weak argument. We know what they present us and hopefully they present it to us to get feedback, so they can react before they release it to the broader public and get an even larger outcry. Especially for an update that is as amazing as PoE and has a lot of peoples attention on it.

[neokiva]

Exactly @BlueberryIsWar! I mean what is the point if they don't want feedback and a lot of the comments are the same on very specific parts. I mean perhaps de should start up a public test server or something.

[Nilani]

@blueberryiswar to be fair they could have done what they did in u7 and told us nothing at all or shown us nothing at all untill basicly the day of release. but they decided to share on a subject that alot of people were talking about to show them what they changed when it came to passives for warframes from focus, again coz of how many people actually where making a fuss over the hammer hitting the fan so to speak, and wanting to let people see that part so they can see that energy regen isnt gonna be a thing outside of pads or the new bubble or energy syphon

but here we are with only the residuals and nothing else coz thats what people clammored about

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Ceramor said:

still kicking up too big of a fuss when we dont know the whole picture is still not a good idea, and id rather try to be optimistic about the update than be pessimistic about it

Their chosen examples of how Focus 2.0 will be useful display a profound lack of understanding of the mechanics of the game. Every single one of those scenarios is better resolved by using parkour and firing a gun or activating a Warframe power.

They said that Focus 2.0 will be all about the Operator, and then gave us a preview based on how good Focus 2.0 will be for the Warframe.

They said that they wanted the different Focus trees to represent a more basic RPG, Dungeons and Dragons-esque class playstyle. Then they made the Rogue a melee berserker, gave invisibility to the Fighter, and made the Tank an enemy debuffer. What?

The single most recurring complaint about Operator mode is that it is slow, clunky, and not fun to use. DE's solution to this is to make the Operator a buff-dispenser.

 

 

There is nothing about this preview which is not tone-deaf. I feel bad for Rebecca that she was given this to present to the community.

[tnccs215]

5 minutes ago, Ceramor said:

or maybe they dont wanna kick up a fuss when they dont know all of the stuff thats going into the update being in the spotlight and all

Dev workshops are meant to represent incoming changes preemptively, so that the community can comment on it before its implementation - when it's easier to change. What other reason there is to make them, specially if it's already set in stone? To spoil a surprise? 

No. This might not be the whole thing, but it's representative enough of it for the devs to put it as such. And if the representation is bad, chances are so is the full thing.

Specially if we look to DE's Workshop history - they tend to be pretty faithful representations of the whole thing. Sometimes even better. 

But yeah, better not to criticize the thing. Not like that's not what forums are for. 

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Though I do admit, I don't feel completely "clean" by doing it, and I should really give more credit to everyone that commented and influenced my views and opinions. But... There are so many, and I already edited it so much..... 

But my not so humble brag points!

We just remember - the AW, the original 20 wave deff sorties (among other things in Sorties like Nezha and event weapon parts), the Extreme Nitain taxing, the CC and explosive meta...  Most people speak out of genuine concern and passion.

[meggarox]

Okay, I think I know a few things that would remedy the situation.

Spoiler

15 hours ago, Dark-Vortex said:

These buffs and abilities that are activated on Void Dash are quite poor, I think they should automatically activate in a radial burst when you activate your operator.

Naramon should disarm all enemies in a radius when activated,

Zenurik should generate and energy pad when activated,

Unairu should provide a damage/armour debuff to enemies in radius when activated, 

Madurai should not provide invisibility or damage buff overtime, but supercharge the Operator's Void beam power relative to all other schools (more damage and status procs).

Vazarin should emit a radial, temporary invulnerability buff whenever it is activated.

 

As for the residuals, well:

I have no suggestion for Naramon.

Zenurik's Energy Pulse is fine so long as it has *at least* a 15 meter radius. Its current form is far too weak.

Zenurik's Channeling Efficiency is, quite frankly, a joke. It may be better providing a permanent boost to power efficiency that it gets in the form of Systemic Override now, or providing a passive 2% to 3% shield regeneration per second that is not disabled by taking damage.

Unairu's Mirror Flare looks disappointing, I'd rather it provided some innate armour ignore to all damage (25% like Toxin damage for example).

Unairu's Armour Buff looks great so long as it stacks with Vex Armour and Iron Skin.

I have no suggestion for Madurai. It will be excellent as long as the numbers are not too low.

I have no suggestion for Vazarin. I'd like to see it provide the benefit of Rejuvenation but I'm not particularly partisan regarding this school.

 

[BlueberryIsWar]

@Ceramor What was so big about U7? The corpus event? Or do you mean the Second Dream?

With the second dream, their keeping everything secret was a good idea simply for the effect. Was pretty amazing to reveal operators out of nowhere :D but we all know that their focus tree wasn't ... good? Not well thought out, lacking in getting feedback (for good reason and it wasn't that dramatic back then). But then they made operator more relevant for Kuva without changing the focus. And now they want to make it integral again and expand on it. So it is time to be transparent and get feedback. That is at least my opinion.

[Nilani]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Dev workshops are meant to represent incoming changes preemptively, so that the community can comment on it before its implementation - when it's easier to change. What other reason there is to make them, specially if it's already set in stone? To spoil a surprise? 

No. This might not be the whole thing, but it's representative enough of it for the devs to put it as such. And if the representation is bad, chances are so is the full thing.

Specially if we look to DE's Workshop history - they tend to be pretty faithful representations of the whole thing. Sometimes even better. 

But yeah, better not to criticize the thing. Not like that's not what forums are for. 

im not saying dont criticize but theres a right way to do and then theres the saying the game is dead coz no energy regen wich i have seen so many times during this post that i stopped counting, and ofc they wouldnt talk about movement since it would be a major spoiler on some of the whole combat tenno aspect they have talked about implementing, like nothing about the hand focus thingy or the armor at all.

[Nilani]

Just now, BlueberryIsWar said:

@Ceramor What was so big about U7? The corpus event? Or do you mean the Second Dream?

With the second dream, their keeping everything secret was a good idea simply for the effect. Was pretty amazing to reveal operators out of nowhere :D but we all know that their focus tree wasn't ... good? Not well thought out, lacking in getting feedback (for good reason and it wasn't that dramatic back then). But then they made operator more relevant for Kuva without changing the focus. And now they want to make it integral again and expand on it. So it is time to be transparent and get feedback. That is at least my opinion.

u7 was the mod system change my friend how do you think that went to begin with?

[JalakBali]

A bit of my 2 cents on the proposed changes:

- I'm fine  with the idea of making the Focus powers be more active than a button push for the duration of the mission.

- I don't like the Vazarin concept with the Operator healing a teammate because it is essentially targeted healing. That doesn't work in Warframe where your teammates are acting like rabid monkeys on PCP (rightly fully so). Anything that requires you to try to catch up to or target your teammate in the heat of battle (instead of, say, down time where you can target buff them) is too much to make it work. All the other heals in this game are radial and you only need to be in their radius.

 

Also, my own ideas and suggestions:

- The Ghost or The Child: Make the Ghost Operator mode to have slightly different effect, maybe with the Operator appear to be semi transparent or have come sort of wispy Void energy (like Limbo's Banish) to make them appear more different than physical Operator.

- Active Power Usage: Differentiate Ghost Operator mode, either in the Focus tree or by different Focus, to do different things instead of the same floating while spewing some sort of power. For instance, you could make the Ghost Operator throw energy balls or energy waves and actively target enemies to CC or kill, instead of the current passive power where you only control the movement. The speed of the floating movement or whether he is rooted in place could be a tree node. A tree node could also be "Call Warframe To Location" just like physical Operator mode, where wherever you stopped Ghost Operator, your Warframe is teleported there, making the Ghost Operator a limited time movement power.

- You Have Not Seen My Final Form: Instead of always using Void Dash to activate their powers, how about another delivery method: Charge Attack. The Operator, so far, is not using the "hold E" prompt. You could use this as an activator of certain powers. Make the animation like they're charging their power (not unlike charging for a Kamehameha).

- The Hand Beam of Doom: Make the Void Beam of the Operator have extra effects depending on which Focus tree they're using. On top of the (paltry) damage, they could have CC effects like Fire, Cold, Electric, etc, or just knockdowns or confuse, etc.

- The Crossing Of The Streams: Have the Void Beam multiplies its effectiveness exponentially whenever the enemy is hit by multiple Void Beams at the same time. So whenever you see a tough enemy being hit with Void Beam by your teammate, you could jump in as your Operator to add your Void Beam to the mix.

[neokiva]

I really do feel sorry for @[DE]Rebecca having to deal with overy 700 replies that say the samethings, the vast majority of the time.