Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Drakeardian said:

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone else realised DE just made child soldiers?

Nah, DE made child soldiers two years ago.

[Newnight]

1 minute ago, Drakeardian said:

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone else realised DE just made child soldiers?

they were always child soldiers.

[(PSN)scinut71]

Actually if you re-watch the Prime Time video Steve acts like the Universal nodes shouldn't have been visible. So an error gave us more info than we were supposed to get.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, Drakeardian said:

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone else realised DE just made child soldiers?

Technically the Orokin made them into child soldiers. 

[GhostLacuna]

35 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

 

Yeah, they're not. The question was about "fixing operator movement and controls". I could have been more clear, perhaps, and said "they aren't broken", but what I did say was not contradictory in the least. The latter instance of "they" was the operators themselves being slow, which is not at all the same as their movement being somehow dysfunctional or needing to be "fixed". I'm getting really bored of these gotcha games where people play dumb so they have an excuse to be rude (i.e. this entire thread). This isn't funny. It's a waste of time. Operator movement is not broken. Controls are not broken. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with them.

You go from a highly mobile warframe to a operator that cant even sprint past rhino without resorting to void dash a move that require you to crush which takes energy and stealth you and then you need a secondary key press to execute the void dash. 

Both which are tied to the energy pool of the operator.  There has already been several people here pointing out that it would be much smoother and improve the operators movement system if void dash was tied to the roll key instead similar to Limbos dash. 

I could break both my legs and i could still walk just fine it would not be anything dysfunctional with me but my speed and movement would still be severely impacted. 

So in many players eyes there are much to be desired from the operators movements. 

When words like clunky and awkward is used the most to describe it by your playerbase something needs to be done. 

The difference between movement 1.0 and 2.0 for the warframes was massive and is often praised as the best change DE has made.

You are also ignoring the delay when it comes from switching to your physical operator as well as the camera change as you can often finish the operator anikmation facing the opposite way your warframe was facing when you started the animation. 

Nothing a human create is ever perfect and that is not what we ask either. 

Still glaring flaws should be pointed out so they can be iterated and improved upon. 

 

 

[Aechmea]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

And we can only void dash forward. Why can't we void dash/strafe left right or void dash backwards? Everything about the operators movement is vary rudimentary and IMO unappealing and boring. But now I'm just beating a dead horse. 

Anyway just wanted to say thanks for fighting the good fight. 

???

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

14 minutes ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

???

 

Wat?! How? Sweet! Ok brb 🏃

Ok I stand corrected, however crouching to void dash is still meh, we should just be able to dash without crouching first. Controls still imo need to evolve. Need other directional  movements other than just locked into up, forward, back, left, right. "Need free control". 

[tnccs215]

@(PS4)scinut71

Since I have no dignity, I quoted your comment in mine on the first page. The info you gave deserve any exposure possible tbh.

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Sprint speed was among the stats discussed to be improved via passives, and all signs point to it being in Naramon.

Operators are deliberately barred from warframes' more extreme athletics. They can't bullet jump, either. Their physical forms are frail by design. They are meant to rely on their void powers for extraordinary movement and to protect themselves. This is not an accident. So yes, void powers constitute much of their movement, and more energy is how they move more.

 

Crouching, rolling, and climbing are not superhuman athletic feats. Improved sprint speed sounds good, and if it turns out to be one of the Naramon passives, I'll be happy about it. Void dashing is, as noted, slightly clumsy as well. It propels you straight forward, with a slight dip. Improving its precision and control would be a significant upgrade if Void Dash is now considered to be the Operator movement standard.

 

Besides which, we run into the problem here which might as well come straight from a Dungeons and Dragons session. If a player shows up with a character who is supposed to be an evil jerk, and thus proceeds to act in-character as an evil jerk, you might say to them "Dude, could you cut it out? It's not cool, you're kinda ruining the fun," and that player can respond by saying "But it's what my character would do! I'm just being in-character!"

Sure, dude, you're just being in-character, but you are the one who wrote and designed the character as an evil jerk in the first place, therefore you're still being a jerk and it's still a problem.

 

 

To translate that over here to Warframe....

"Operators are supposed to be slow and clumsy! It's because of the lore!"
Ok, but, DE wrote that lore in the first place. It wasn't foisted on them. It was their decision to do it this way. Absolutely no-one is making them do anything, and in the mean time, Operator controls are still clumsy and lacking basic options, such as crouching.

[Endless_Destruction]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Hello there. My statements are in bold.

Void dash is actually faster than a standard bullet jump.

Only when discounting the initial delay in switching to operator mode in the first place.

You know, I was ready to deliver this big rant about how people keep misinterpreting things, taking changes out of context, and declaring how broken they'll be without this other change that is also happening, but I figured, nah, they don't really need me to do that. Guess that wasn't entirely true. Focus 2.0 is an operator rework. This thread explains what's happening to the passives (now "residuals") that people have focused on in the old system, and gives vague scenarios to explain how operators can contribute to normal gameplay (in lieu of some of the passives being removed) in the new system. Declaring that those scenarios can't work in the old system is both obvious and irrelevant. There is a lot of information we don't have yet, and it is incredibly asinine to assume that they would declare their intention to make operators more capable as warriors, and then change none of the things that they explicitly acknowledged to be problematic in the old system.

Agreed, no criticism nor support can be delivered without some details about the war operator. Criticism is being delivered with the old operator's movement system, limited energy pool, and 100hp in mind. However, it is incredibly unsettling to consider the possibility that they won't change what many find as "clunky" in the operator's mechanics, and I haven't heard of any problems with the operator that have been explicitly acknowledged by the devs. Mind providing an example or two?

So I say again, Focus 2.0 is not reliant on the operator to achieve some other purpose. The operator is its purpose. The rest is a compromise to appease people who resent the fact that operators exist at all, and who want Focus to serve warframes.

This creates something of a problem for those in between TSD and TWW. If the operator itself was the purpose of of the rework, then those without access to the full operator are handed a huge (hopefully awesome) system that they can't make use of. I'm not saying that the system should cater to those in that little sliver of in between progress, but if nothing else, as an introduction to the focus system, some substantial warframe bonuses, something that would make investing into the trees worthwhile for those without the operator or those who don't want to use the operator for whatever reason would be very welcome. The game is supposed to be about options. Given that focus was a rather big (if underdeveloped) system, it seems strange to devote everything in the new, hopefully just as deep system, to the operator.

See above. People completely lost it on the mere rumour that the current Focus system would be lost to them. This was, quite frankly, to convince them that the sky is not falling, and not to explain in detail how the entire Focus 2.0 system would work. What was shown here was a tiny fraction of each tree, specifically relating the "residuals" that would be replacing the current focus passives, and teasers to try to convince people that maybe operators could be fun to use in normal play (because they definitely aren't now). If you want to know more, go watch Primetime 183, and you can see what the Naramon tree looks like, whereupon it becomes clear that what's presented here explains only the fundamentals of how Focus will work. Probably because the active, operator-centric side of Focus is still actively being worked on, and anything she could tell us now would be even more "subject to change" than what little she did say.

People lost it because a lot of what was wrong with the current system is still wrong with this one. For example, in the link you provided, we still have that BS "Unlock more WAY before you can have more nodes" focus sink, which is a really annoying dual upgrade system. The examples given in the video of focus passives still show underwhelming warframe benefits and the emphasis on operator buffs, which are not very practical to use in moment-to-moment gameplay.

Like I said above, this explains the fundamentals of how Focus will work. Which is exactly what's on the label, so how the heck is this a bait and switch? It doesn't say "Operators!" It says "Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0".

As for those scenarios, they're not, in fact, "laughable". Yes they are. They require frame->switch->operator which is awfully clunky. For those of us who get a poor host, transitions are downright painful (along with everything else, but still).

• Naramon: Yeah, I can get my void beam on a target in the time of Sonic Boom's casting animation, and then I don't have to chase any ragdolled targets. I like it. I have killed Sonar'ed Corpus Techs with my operator for fun, without disarming them.
• With the current operator in mind-you only have 9 seconds of operator beam, and you still have the horribly clunky switch from frame to operator. If you don't want to be gunned down by the tech's buddies you need to be in void mode, and drain your energy pool even faster. Sure, you could probably kill the tech with your operator even in the current system, but why would you ever want to take the unnecessary extra time and risk?
• Zenurik: Why would you bother bringing energy restores when your Focus school gives you a free equivalent? That's really the only criticism: "everybody brings them!" Irrelevant. I don't even use restores that often, and I'm sick of farming polymer bundles. If I never have to craft another energy restore again, I won't be upset. That's what I got out of this example.
• Farming poly bundles for energy restores is annoying, but the point is, the example given is strictly worse than a consumable, and also worse than its current-focus counterpart, which is infuriating. People loved the old Energy Overflow for a reason; see the subreddit for detailed explanations much more eloquent than my own. Offering us something worse, demanding we stay within a given range (supposedly staying still is what the devs DON'T want, and here they are incentivizing it, probably going to be nerfed or reworked anyway later because of this) and something we can only do with a clunky transition that will yield instant death in many cases is disheartening to see.
• Unairu: Nox has a significant amount of armor, and you don't want to melee a Nox or be visible to it unless you can get a finisher and/or it's hard CC'ed. Stripping its armor and giving someone else a chance at a clean headshot is actually a very effective tactic, and reducing enemies' damage output and resistance is certainly a good way to "outlast" them. Seems to be borrowing a Naramon ability (more on this later).
• As someone explained and you already know, Nox's survivability is primarily due to its hardcoded DR not armor. Even if armor was the main concern, this would mean you are facing the nox in a high level grineer environment, where you are probably using Corrosive Projection/Corrosive status weapons anyway, meaning that switching to the operator to strip armor is unnecessary at best, suicidal at worst because of that clunky transition again.
• Madurai: The operator killed them. All of them. In one shot. Overwhelming force without a chance of resistance or reprisal. No, you can't do that with a Soma Prime unless you're Banshee. Significantly, this shows operators are independently capable of real combat, which is quite a change. Again, this seems to borrow from Naramon.
• Cool, I have nothing to say to that, (halfhearted tone) except maybe any AoE weapon could do the same, and the Soma Prime could do that a few extra shots, with no sitting around and waiting for a charge up, wasting energy.
• Vazarin: Yeah, I can void dash through someone, and I can do it before the Stomp animation finishes. Saving someone with this is about as realistic as doing it with Harrow's Covenant. It simply requires noticing that they're in danger at the appropriate time, which is really more challenging than the execution. But the scenario is not at all unrealistic.
• No you can't void dash through someone before stomp finishes unless you are already in operator mode. The scenario implies you switch as you see the saryn dying. Side note, if Saryn is dying, then she won't be standing still waiting for you, she'll be running around like, as tnccs said on page 1, a rabbit on crack, and the operator won't keep up given the current movement system /side note. Unless they fix the clunky transition, the scenario is still highly unlikely.

I would have just as much validity in claiming people who deny this don't play the game, so let's not play that card. It is clear that parts of this post were hastily put together. Rebecca, bless her for all her hard work, is honestly no stranger to copypasta problems and other typos, and you can see them here, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know what she's talking about. We have watched her play the game, and yes, some of us have probably judged her performance. It's possible she didn't completely think through every example scenario, but don't you think that might be because it's just an example to show what can be done with a system that is still in development, rather than a recommendation for the best strategy? If I had to look at an evolving series of partially overlapping power lists and write up examples for how to use them, it would probably look something like this, too. The potential blurring of the thematic lines is worth talking about. It certainly seems like each school is borrowing from the others, and the most effective operator builds will likely involve multiple schools and the aforementioned cross-school passives. But there are a lot of people jumping to conclusions and making up excuses to be rude and pessimistic, when the information either is not available to us or directly contradicts what they're saying.

Agreed, this was probably the best Rebecca could do given the evolving system that focus 2.0 is. But at this point, more questions are being given than answers, and if this was meant to be a pacifying article, it failed quite spectacularly. Especially since, as shown in the link you posted, much of the rework appears to already be in place. People are fearful that "subject to change" is only true in the same way that Hydroid's rework is "subject to change," or better, as the old focus was "subject to change" (Can't wait for the next iteration, see you in two years!) which is causing uproar.

If you want to see an example of a Naramon ability, look at the video I linked, at about the 16-minute mark. "Void Hunter: Void mode reveals enemies within 5m through walls. This ability costs an additional 2 energy per second." Unranked, so presumably the radius will improve. "Know the Enemy", right? This ability currently exists as Rift Sight in the Zenurik tree, but it's more appropriate for Naramon. Now, I don't know for sure, because she doesn't mouse over it to show the description, but I'd hazard a guess that the Void Stalker node here is the one that was used in the Unairu example, which would mean, that's right, it's a Naramon skill! Also on that screen, we can see that the melee damage mentioned here is a simple damage boost (see, it was a typo/copypasta error, and it's not "on kill" like the affinity passive), and it probably works similarly to Steel Charge (i.e. additive with Pressure Point, not multiplicative with total damage). The names of the lower left nodes imply greatly improving operator mobility, and these will likely be cross-school passives. And oh, look at that, Disarming Blast requires Disorienting Blast to be unlocked, which means that example should also inflict confusion (in the manner of Irradiating Disarm). And this is just a glimpse at one tree. So like I said, there's a great goddamned lot of information we just don't have yet, and jumping to conclusions won't help. But oh no, she said off the top of her head that the "Basilisk" cross-school passive was from Vazarin when it's actually probably Unairu, so crucify her!

Agreed, we don't have a lot of information, so this thread is just us saying what we like/don't like based on what limited info we were given. In the same way that Rebecca did the best she could with the system evolving as it is, we are giving the best feedback we can based on personal experience and the given information. None of it, including our feedback then, has very much value, true, but then there's no point in getting angry at it, is there?

I'm not trying to say that focus 2.0 sucks and that we're all doomed, but the fact that it focuses on the operator, which currently isn't that great at all (I know the operator is undergoing massive changes, but I worry that it still won't be worth actually using mid-mission, which is a legitimate concern), and doesn't fix the issues of convergence BS and way points BS AND THE GODDAM CLUNKY TRANSITION among others is upsetting to see.

Thanks for reading.

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"Yes, we've fixed the slow and clunky Operator movement, they're much more fun to play now."

 

 

 

Is that a massive spoiler?

Off topic curiosity: why do you separate the paragraphs that much?

[GhostLacuna]

21 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

Just made @(PS4)scinut71 discovery a bit more readable and pop out. Good stuff there, thanks a lot!

So numbers are here.

Inner Gaze: Increases Ammo Energy for the Operator by 10%( 3 upgrades to max)                                                                                                                  

Eternal Gaze: Increases Ammo Regen for the Operator by 10% (5 upgrades to max)          

Rejuvenating Tides: Increases health regeneration of the Operator by 1/s( 3 upgrades to max)

Enduring Tides: Increases Health of Operator by 125% (3 upgrades to max)  

Energy Pool: Increases Operator Energy Pool by 15%(5 upgrades to max)  

Energy Restore: Increases Energy Restoration by 15%(5 upgrades to max) 

So we already know that Void beam can only be used 9 seconds before it is depleted with operator 1.0

Void blast can be used 5 times before your energy ammo is dry. 

Void dashing can be used 3 times before you are out of energy

Void Mode can be used for 9 seconds before its depleted 

so 30% extra ammo for our pool and 50% higher regen and 4 life per second health regen if the base is 1.  125% x3 on 100 health is 375 base health for our operator higher then some frames but still on the low side. It remains to be seen if gear and arcane can increase it further. 

What is lacking here is any information about shields for the operators. Armor has been teased but the figures are needed until we can say if it will have an impact or not. 

Since they decoupled energy ammo pool from the energy pool of the operator its most likely that The beam and blast will have its own separate pool from the movement skills. 

so Void dash and Void mode seems to get a 75% increase at max to their pool as well as a 75% increase to the regen. 

So possible up to 6 or 8 void dashes before you are dry instead of the 3 we have today. 

that could also mean void Mode could stick around for perhaps 15 seconds giving it an actual use. 

Its an start but if all they do is try to get us to use void dash more then before its a flat stat buff and nothing major will have been fixed with the operators movement system. 

 

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

Off topic curiosity: why do you separate the paragraphs that much?

I prefer to keep my posts nice and neat and split up a little bit, allowing the eye to dart over them and make out separate statements easily. I really hate big Wall o' Text posts.

[GhostLacuna]

26 minutes ago, Drakeardian said:

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone else realised DE just made child soldiers?

And we had those tropes for years just as we had forsaken child form years. Its nothing new. 

Had they gone a more realistic path nobody would have argued that they are emo kids. 

Listening to interviews of real child soldiers is not fun nor should it be so i am glad they took a more light hearted way with the tenno. 

[Kaotyke]

16 minutes ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

???

 

Yeah, I tested that in the Simulacrum too yesterday.

Maybe if the Dash was our Dodge button... Its would be like fighting Telas Vasir in ME2, Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC. I felt so damn cheated that I couldnt Biotic Charge like that.

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I prefer to keep my posts nice and neat and split up a little bit, allowing the eye to dart over them and make out separate statements easily. I really hate big Wall o' Text posts.

Amen to that.

[GhostLacuna]

18 minutes ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

???

 

That is hardly how they move on pc at least. 

The requirement of two seperate moves one being crush does not allow for such rapid movement. 

[Kaotyke]

2 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

That is hardly how they move on pc at least. 

The requirement of two seperate moves one being crush does not allow for such rapid movement. 

Ok, now you dont know what you are talking about.

Sure, this is in Captura, where we have Infinite energy, but the movement is possible.

Get into Captura and try it out.

[DreamsmithJane]

15 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Ok, but, DE wrote that lore in the first place. It wasn't foisted on them.

Okay, but it makes sense, mechanically. Warframes are about two things. One, raw physical prowess with "gun and blade". Two, channeling and manifesting void power in controlled ways. The independent existence of operators, in order to add to the game in a logical way, should be the reverse. Low physical ability, and primal, uncontrolled power. Otherwise, the operator is just another warframe. The problem is that operators have, until now, had extremely limited access to their power, and precious little actual power when exercised. That is why Focus 2.0 strikes me as so important. It promises to improve their survivability, mobility, and endurance, to make their use less frustrating. But beyond that, it offers them a chance to have real, unique impact on the game. Not just by performing tasks deliberately designed to require them, but by interacting with the game's core mechanics on a relevant scale, in ways that no warframe does.

In other words, I'm bored with operators being shoehorned in. I want them to earn their place.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, DreamsmithJane said:

Okay, but it makes sense, mechanically. Warframes are about two things. One, raw physical prowess with "gun and blade". Two, channeling and manifesting void power in controlled ways. The independent existence of operators, in order to add to the game in a logical way, should be the reverse. Low physical ability, and primal, uncontrolled power. Otherwise, the operator is just another warframe. The problem is that operators have, until now, had extremely limited access to their power, and precious little actual power when exercised. That is why Focus 2.0 strikes me as so important. It promises to improve their survivability, mobility, and endurance, to make their use less frustrating. But beyond that, it offers them a chance to have real, unique impact on the game. Not just by performing tasks deliberately designed to require them, but by interacting with the game's core mechanics on a relevant scale, in ways that no warframe does.

In other words, I'm bored with operators being shoehorned in. I want them to earn their place.

See, I would actually agree with that....except that Operators won't earn their place if they're not fun to play.

 

What I was getting at was that if someone says "Hey, this part of the game isn't actually fun because of reasons x, y, and z," a helpful response is not to say "Yep! They're supposed to be like that, being slow and clumsy and unfun is the concept!"

 

Sure, it's the concept. But that doesn't make it fun.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

That is hardly how they move on pc at least. 

The requirement of two seperate moves one being crush does not allow for such rapid movement. 

You can actually fly around like crazy. Just needs better directional movement, or "free movement" not locked into specific direction, not so hurky jerky.

[GhostLacuna]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Ok, now you dont know what you are talking about.

Sure, this is in Captura, where we have Infinite energy, but the movement is possible.

Get into Captura and try it out.

So you are saying you choose to show off something that at the current iteration of the game you have a hard limit of 3 of in a mode where you have no limitations?

Do you even realize how awfully bad such an example is?

Now you are reaching levels before only seen from youtubers that thinks shutting off AI to show of weapons in any way show off how it would far in a real ingame scenario. 

 

[letir]

Whole idea with Operator is much more feasible in reverse.

Main gameplay as fast, agile ninja-kid with powers. You have huge energy reserves and many different tricks and support powers, but not combat related (Loki/Limbo/Trinity etc.). Best mobility and stealth capabilities - free-camera teleports with fatal backstab (Dishonored), unrestricted invisibility, infinite wall-latching and stuff. Great as suport, but extremly weak health and weapons.

After some story progress player getting "main suit" (Warframe), which can give more defined, agressive powers and overall better in battle. It have survivability, normal weapons, combining mobility and cover system to deal with enemies. Energy regeneration and power cooldowns are more restrictive.

And then Tenno unlocking his "true potential" and learn "combine with Warframe" power, which have big cooldown, but turning him into super-Sayan mode, which is the only way to fight Eidolons/Sentients/Eldrich Horrors/Orokin.

 

So you playing regular Warframe as "caster Operator" to give Energy Vampire for team, switching for your main Excalibur to provide firepower, and finaly activate "Focus Mode" to beat end-game bosses or simply gain power surge.

 

This way both Frames and Operators will have actual role in gameplay. And players will learn to appreciate capabilities and restrictions of both forms, from the beginning of the game, without gruelsome Focus farming.

[Kaotyke]

Just now, GhostLacuna said:

So you are saying you choose to show off something that at the current iteration of the game you have a hard limit of 3 of in a mode where you have no limitations?

Do you even realize how awfully bad such an example is?

Now you are reaching levels before only seen from youtubers that thinks shutting off AI to show of weapons in any way show off how it would far in a real ingame scenario. 

 

No, you didnt get what I meant, all I said is that the Dash movement (Side to side, back and forth) is possible, which you said here

12 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

That is hardly how they move on pc at least. 

The requirement of two seperate moves one being crush does not allow for such rapid movement. 

Is not because you need to crouch, the mechanic is there.

I even admited that the amout of dashes shown in the gif are only possible because of the Infinite Energy pool of Capture

However we are getting a chance to Upgrate our energy pool and regen speed, so MAYBE...

[GhostLacuna]

4 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Okay, but it makes sense, mechanically. Warframes are about two things. One, raw physical prowess with "gun and blade". Two, channeling and manifesting void power in controlled ways. The independent existence of operators, in order to add to the game in a logical way, should be the reverse. Low physical ability, and primal, uncontrolled power. Otherwise, the operator is just another warframe. The problem is that operators have, until now, had extremely limited access to their power, and precious little actual power when exercised. That is why Focus 2.0 strikes me as so important. It promises to improve their survivability, mobility, and endurance, to make their use less frustrating. But beyond that, it offers them a chance to have real, unique impact on the game. Not just by performing tasks deliberately designed to require them, but by interacting with the game's core mechanics on a relevant scale, in ways that no warframe does.

In other words, I'm bored with operators being shoehorned in. I want them to earn their place.

That might be true from a Design intention but ask any player that has been cold procced how they feel about their movements and how it affects their enjoyment of the game. 

The thing is most people see being slow as a major drawback and a punishment. This is true for not only warframe but almost every single game out there. 

Focus 2.0 Is extremely important and DEs best chance to improve the operators by leap and bounds its just that we are not all as optimistic as you are. 

I can see no drawbacks with trying to make the operators as smooth and fluid as possible to use while still not upgrade them to warframe mobility levels. 

Crisp and snappy controls in a game is never negative. 

I also doubt there is anyone here who want the operators or focus to be in a worst state after PoE then it was before. 

[tnccs215]

15 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Okay, but it makes sense, mechanically. Warframes are about two things. One, raw physical prowess with "gun and blade". Two, channeling and manifesting void power in controlled ways. The independent existence of operators, in order to add to the game in a logical way, should be the reverse. Low physical ability, and primal, uncontrolled power. Otherwise, the operator is just another warframe. The problem is that operators have, until now, had extremely limited access to their power, and precious little actual power when exercised. That is why Focus 2.0 strikes me as so important. It promises to improve their survivability, mobility, and endurance, to make their use less frustrating. But beyond that, it offers them a chance to have real, unique impact on the game. Not just by performing tasks deliberately designed to require them, but by interacting with the game's core mechanics on a relevant scale, in ways that no warframe does.

In other words, I'm bored with operators being shoehorned in. I want them to earn their place.

That is a rather valid position - one I can perfectly understand and even endorse.

Issue is, even if the operators are finally fleshed out properly... How much use will they trully get outside of Eidola fights?

I mean, at the very best of cases, chances are they will be redundant - we have already a massive amount of tools at our disposal, I honestly think most players are on the bring of resource saturation. Yes, people like you might use them - but I suspect that most people will either outright ignore them, or use them exclusively, as a change of pace rather than a component of the game play itself - that is, they'll just pick up the kid and use it till the end of the mission, instead of constantly alternating.

Frankly, in restrospective, I'm pretty ok with that. DE is putting gamebreaking Focus passives away, which means the chance that Operators will themselves be game breaking will be small - at least on purpose - which means that they should probably be meaningless at worst. Which is innocuous, and therefore irrelevant.

What bothers me ends up being exactly this apparent waste and effort on making something that ultimately will be irrelevant - which is, attempting to transform the gameplay into an alternation of Frame and Operator - instead of capitalizing in what makes them strong, unique and interesting: namely, fighting Eidolons and being used as alternatives to warframes. Which means that 1) they must be capable of at least defending themselves properly, and 2) they mustn't be an utter pain to control.

And yeah, maybe we are all talking too soon and this is how it's all going to turn out. But we must criticize the little they give us, because shouting and risking doing so pointlessly is better than not doing anything at all.