Pondering on the Lotus

[Krion112]

I haven't done a lore thing in a long while... Anyway, I was just thinking, we see Hunhow as this giant dragon-like machine, yet Lotus takes on a human form. I was thinking for awhile that Lotus could just be a Sentient using transference to occupy a host body, but some would like to suggest that Lotus is supposed to look like Margulis, and with Margulis's body disintegrated, it'd be kind of hard impossible to transfer into it. Likewise, people say Lotus merely shape-shifts, and while plausible, I don't think such a concept matches the strangeness of Warframe.

So, I thought, potentially making the Warframe universe and Sentient a little more terrifying, perhaps Lotus as she appears is just a figment of our imagination being manipulated by her control. Like, she's making us hallucinate into seeing her, and her fragments (ie, Lotus picking us up and carrying us to our transference chair was just a fragment, like a Conculyst or Battalyst), as Margulis. This way, a Tenno seeing her would be more sympathetic and responsive to her influence.

I think this suits the manipulative styles of the Sentient and sort of the strange universe Warframe is, but I don't know, let me know what you think.

[Rhekemi]

I think the concept of Lotus as a friendly manifestation or loving figment who hides her true, frightening Sentient form (all the while still being friendly and loving and an actual ally) is fantastic.

If DE found a way to make it work, I'd love it.

Spoiler

That said, I think DE has (or will create) an explanation that accounts for her humanoid, Margulis-like form.

The Lotus, in her current form, has come to symbolize and embody more than just an NPC, as we all know. I don't think DE will ever be keen on taking that physical representation away from the game or the community.

Would it be dope if they removed the wool from over the Tenno's eyes and showed us her true form? Hell yes. But I'm not counting on such a thing ever happening.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Krion112]

Just now, Rhekemi said:

I think the concept of Lotus as a friendly manifestation or loving figment is fantastic.

If DE found a way to make it work, I'd love it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

That said, I think DE has (or will create) an explanation that accounts for her humanoid, Margulis-like form.

The Lotus, in her current form, has come to symbolize and embody more than just an NPC, as we all know. I don't think DE will ever be keen on taking that physical representation away from the game or the community.

Would it be dope if they removed the wool from over the Tenno's eyes and showed us her true form? Hell yes. But I'm not counting on such a thing ever happening.

 

 

 

To be fair, people were long attached to the idea of the Tenno being the Warrior, and the Warframes just being some kind of symbiotic exosuits, and we see how that turned out. In fact, if one thing has been consistent with DE, it's that they love to completely alter some facet of Warframe at a moments notice, so I actually wouldn't be too surprised to see anything happen at this point.

[Rhekemi]

I stand by my comments, but that's an excellent point.

[Mints]

If the Lotus we see is a hallucination how did she pick us up during The Second Dream?

[Krion112]

Just now, Mints said:

If the Lotus we see is a hallucination how did she pick us up during The Second Dream?

I covered this:

33 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

(ie, Lotus picking us up and carrying us to our transference chair was just a fragment, like a Conculyst or Battalyst)

 

[YUNoJump]

37 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

So, I thought, potentially making the Warframe universe and Sentient a little more terrifying, perhaps Lotus as she appears is just a figment of our imagination being manipulated by her control. Like, she's making us hallucinate into seeing her, and her fragments (ie, Lotus picking us up and carrying us to our transference chair was just a fragment, like a Conculyst or Battalyst), as Margulis. This way, a Tenno seeing her would be more sympathetic and responsive to her influence.

The problem I see with this theory (although it's a good one) is that the Lotus has a very definite presence in the system outside of just taking the Tenno through missions. Everybody in the system knows about her, and it also seems clear that some people know she orchestrated our massacre of the Orokin. On top of that, she seems to have some sort of organisation working backstage to build up her power (the Tenno didn't build the Relays alone, and we interact with Lotus' operatives in Rescue, Defence and (indirectly) Survival). People have also threatened to directly kill her from time to time, and she actually left us when Hunhow returned, out of fear for her life.

Overall it's possible that her influence on us goes past just being a nice lady, but the problem is that we never really get to see the world of Warframe that isn't directly related to fighting dudes. Cetus and Mycona are the only non-military settlements/bases we've ever seen, and they are specifically abnormal. We have never seen a peaceful Corpus or Grineer settlement outside of those two, let alone a normal one, and we don't even have the tiniest idea of who Lotus Operatives are, if not Grineer or Corpus. The civilian opinion of the Lotus would definitely be useful to have.

[Krion112]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

-snip-

I'm not saying she doesn't have a physical form, I'm saying that we're wired so that when we see her or her fragments, we see Margulis. Like, she probably really is something like Hunhow, some massive construct, but when she transmits to us, or when she interacts with us via fragment, she gives us this illusion of being a human.

[YUNoJump]

18 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

I'm not saying she doesn't have a physical form, I'm saying that we're wired so that when we see her or her fragments, we see Margulis. Like, she probably really is something like Hunhow, some massive construct, but when she transmits to us, or when she interacts with us via fragment, she gives us this illusion of being a human.

IIRC there are some lines where people mention that she's a copy of Margulis, but I'm not sure. People almost certainly wouldn't accept the idea of a Sentient just working as a faction in the system like any other, Sentients are the big-end-threat of the system, not unlike White Walkers or Reapers from Mass Effect. On top of that, the Lotus had the power to put the Moon in the Void, or at least know of its existence there while no other faction did. As such, she must have, or have had, some form of influence over Orokin systems, moreso than an undisguised Sentient would ever be able to achieve. 

[Kurokoz]

The real question, I think, is if the Lotus is Space Mom, that makes Hunhow Space Grandpa, so why doesn't Space Grandpa like his angsty Space Teen grandchildren?

I bet it is the music we listen to.

[YUNoJump]

4 minutes ago, Kurokoz said:

The real question, I think, is if the Lotus is Space Mom, that makes Hunhow Space Grandpa, so why doesn't Space Grandpa like his angsty Space Teen grandchildren?

I bet it is the music we listen to.

That's the key to Octavia's Anthem; Hunhow doesn't like our Mandachord music, so he scratches up our music so much that our robot DJ friend goes completely insane and we have to save her from Hunhow's edgy poetic tunes.

[Kurokoz]

Just now, YUNoJump said:

That's the key to Octavia's Anthem; Hunhow doesn't like our Mandachord music, so he scratches up our music so much that our robot DJ friend goes completely insane and we have to save her from Hunhow's edgy poetic tunes.

Oh, thank you. I understand that quest so much better than I used to.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

during the chains of harrow quest it was revealed that she taking on the appearance of margilus, taken from the minds of us in the second dream. 
knowing  that sentients are able to adapt quite aggressively to alot of stuff expect void energy. So there nothing saying they can't take on a human form given time.
Lotus/Natah has strong motherly instincts an well taken on similar form that in the back of are minds was always there, making when we awake from the cryopod an we did as she told us without questioning any of it.
 

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

Well we don't know the mechanics of how Lotus takes her form but since she is a benevolent individual, it makes sense she mimics a human form (namely Margulis apparently)

 

"Helen Benson: What were you before you were human?

Klaatu: It would only frighten you."

[Krion112]

10 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

IIRC there are some lines where people mention that she's a copy of Margulis, but I'm not sure. People almost certainly wouldn't accept the idea of a Sentient just working as a faction in the system like any other, Sentients are the big-end-threat of the system, not unlike White Walkers or Reapers from Mass Effect. On top of that, the Lotus had the power to put the Moon in the Void, or at least know of its existence there while no other faction did. As such, she must have, or have had, some form of influence over Orokin systems, moreso than an undisguised Sentient would ever be able to achieve. 

The Natah and Second Dream quest clearly implied that Lotus is a Sentient, the/a daughter of Hunhow. And Lotus moved the moon, only after the hierarchy of the Orokin were dismantled, which means she didn't need to disguise herself to the Orokin. And it wouldn't be that hard for her to specifically do, considering the strength of the Sentient comes from their ability to subvert technology, and considering Lotus is Sentient, it's not that far fetched that she rigged the whole moon to enter the void.

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)HSomDevil said:

Well we don't know the mechanics of how Lotus takes her form but since she is a benevolent individual, it makes sense she mimics a human form (namely Margulis apparently)

That was the point, I was just postulating on how she takes the form of Margulis. Many like to suggest she physically is a humanoid resembling Margulis, but I think it's more in her nature as a Sentient to manipulate our minds into making us perceive her as appearing like Margulis.

[(XBOX)Anbu Swift]

lotus is a hot milf lol

[Antiphoton]

There is a concept picture of what would have been "the Lotus throne", to be placed in a relay, where we could visit her physical form as we see her in her transmissions. It was not implemented after all, but I think that states that DE had something else in mind.

We don't know much about the Sentients also. What we see now, Hunhow, his fragments, and the stuff we will encounter in the plains are weakened after a total defeat and many years of inactivity. We don't know if at their full potential they could take other forms, and if the Lotus retains that ability.

I like your theory, tho.

[Kinetos]

My guess, Sentients can take whatever shape their task requires. Hunhow and his fragments do not have a task that requires a humanoid form, so they don't have one. Natah needed to gain the Tennos trust, and taking Margulus' form was a very real benefit for that mission, so she did so.

Probably not able to shift shape as quickly or easily as the changelings in Star Trek DS9, so once they take a shape, they don't change it until they *really* need to. And none of them have changed their task's requirements substantially. Hunhow and fragments are still just scouts and soldiers, Lotus still needs our trust, and the trust of the Syndicates. 

[Undirys]

I think the change was made when she suffered the "gap" during the travel between the Tau System and the Origin System (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think she took this form and adopted a completely different mindset. Still, sometimes I wonder what will happen if that is a lie? I mean, take into account for what we know... The Orokin were first, then they fought against the Sentients. They released the Infestation, which didn't worked out quite well, so after that we got the Tenno from the Zariman-Ten-Zero which (it seems to be us) were considered "Void-Possessed" demons.
The Tenno fought that war and "won", the Sentients release the Krak... sorry, Natah. Natah suffers the gap, she becomes the Lotus. But most importantly, The Tenno being "Demi-Gods" of war betraying the Orokin, I have played many games and RPG's too. So if anyone knows what I'm talking about, this sounds a little bit like Exalted (1st and 2nd Edition). The Tenno are back, supposedly a force of "balance" under the guidance of the Lotus.
So far she seems to truly worry about the Tenno, like their sons... but that's true.

This again will go with the whole theory (which I love) that we are actually the enemies of this game and not the actual "good guys".

But well... that's my humble opinion. :'(

[KelsierSurvivor]

2 hours ago, Undirys said:

This again will go with the whole theory (which I love) that we are actually the enemies of this game and not the actual "good guys".

I would like to say that it would be truly awesome to play as a bad guy in a game. Not just playing a villain campaign like in Starcraft, but play an online game that is ever going, and be the force of evil that everyone fears.

[TARINunit9]

15 hours ago, Krion112 said:

 but some would like to suggest that Lotus is supposed to look like Margulis, and with Margulis's body disintegrated, it'd be kind of hard impossible to transfer into it.

Just because Margulis herself is a bunch of dust, doesn't mean that a Sentient armada with near-reality warping power can't drum up an artificial body that looks close enough. I mean, Lotus and Margulis already have different voices (I'm pretty sure they have separate voice actresses) so it's not like the Zariman kids would be fooled into thinking Margulis is still alive; the Sentients just needed Close Enough

[BornWithTeeth]

The thing which comes up every time is this:

 

The Warframe Project was full of people who knew Margulis in life.

The Lotus infiltrated the Warframe Project.

The Orokin knew that they were at war with adaptive machines.

If the Lotus took the form of Margulis when she infiltrated the Warframe Project, she would have been spotted as an infiltrator wearing the face of a dead woman, stood against a wall, and shot.

 

I don't see any explanation for this other than the idea that the Lotus took Margulis' form after the War, when everyone who could do anything about it was dead.

 

That, or DE just threw it in cos it sounded cool and didn't think it through.

[Krion112]

53 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Just because Margulis herself is a bunch of dust, doesn't mean that a Sentient armada with near-reality warping power can't drum up an artificial body that looks close enough. I mean, Lotus and Margulis already have different voices (I'm pretty sure they have separate voice actresses) so it's not like the Zariman kids would be fooled into thinking Margulis is still alive; the Sentients just needed Close Enough

I'm not discounting the shape-shifter or transference theories, because there's nothing to discount any of these theories yet either. It was just some fun postulating, that instead of physically being a human or changing into the form of a human, the Tenno are being manipulated into seeing Lotus as the one being that showed them compassion.

The Sentient could have created an artificial human body of Margulis for Lotus to use transference on, and my only problem with that is that the Sentient would have to known about Margulis and her involvement with the Tenno, but it could always be speculated that the Sentient had infiltrators. Perhaps, even if Lotus isn't specifically doing this to us, there are Sentient that can and did to the Orokin.

Likewise, Lotus could just have easily been sculpted specifically in the shape of Margulis, but again, it implies the Sentient would have to have known how important Margulis was.

But, I'm inclined to this theory of manipulating our thoughts, though not insidious right now, because it implies that Sentient subversion is darker and more sinister than just manipulating technology, and it makes them more of a threatening enemy. Imagine if colonies across Origin start worshiping Sentients, like cults to a dark elder god, because the Sentient plant the seeds of subversion in their minds. Lotus doing the same to us, although not for nefarious purpose, would be a nice way to introduce this possibility.

But, again, being a shape-shifter, transferring into a host, or psychological manipulation all suit the Sentient, and it will ultimately be DE's choice that we'll see in the game.

 

43 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

-snip-

I see the most common interpretation of the Lotus subverting the Tenno suggesting that Lotus had to go through the Orokin to do it, but I don't think that's the case. As you say, disguising as Margulis would immediately alert the Orokin to Sentient infiltration. Perhaps the Orokin had no idea that Natah ever seized control over the Tenno.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Krion112

[BornWithTeeth]

6 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

 

 

I see the most common interpretation of the Lotus subverting the Tenno suggesting that Lotus had to go through the Orokin to do it, but I don't think that's the case. As you say, disguising as Margulis would immediately alert the Orokin to Sentient infiltration. Perhaps the Orokin had no idea that Natah ever seized control over the Tenno.

There are references to the Lotus having the Tenno report to her during missions. The Orokin almost certainly would have found out about it. There are of course explanations for this, but they run afoul of Occam's Razor (which warns against the proliferation of additional factors necessary to explain additional factors, ad infinitum). The simplest explanation is that the Lotus did infiltrate the Warframe project, but did so under the guise of an otherwise non-suspicious staffer/officer.

[Krion112]

9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

-snip-

There's no certainty, the details of the war are still not known. I would argue that Sentient subversion prevented the Orokin from using conventional restraints and indoctrination on us, and that we were essentially let loose on the Sentient, like war beasts. This is supported by the fact we just outright turn on the Orokin when we return from the 'Tau' System, suggesting they had no means to restrain us.

Also, taking Tenno reports doesn't mean the Orokin would find out about this subversion, usually if you intend to stage a coup, you're very careful not to tell those you overthrow that you intend to overthrow them.

So the Orokin learning about Natah's infiltration doesn't seem very likely, and by extension, it doesn't seem very likely that Natah needed to at all go through the Orokin to take the reigns of the Tenno. At least to me.