Operators... Focus 2.0... screw you, both

[Sajochi]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That at least is encouraging, yes. Beyond that, I was referring to their glacially slow movement (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their tiny health pools (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their lack of health regeneration (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their abysmal energy economy (there are two Passives for that, each costs three million Focus), their lack of any kind of armour or protection (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus)...

 

It's bit rich to take onboard a year's worth of feedback and basically say "We've listened, and we've fixed it all! You can have the fixes by grinding your daily Focus maximum every day for six months!"

The point of the new system is that it's supposed to take time. In the meantime, you get access to gear that also augments operator play. Vets get to step right into the system if they farmed focus, new players of course will have to work towards that power. But we're getting a middle ground that is only gated by 1 quest you unlock at a later time anyways. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Sajochi

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

THANK YOU.

This is what people seem to be willfully ignoring, that many of the exact mechanical issues they have are being and have been addressed, not to mention that the method of argument tends to be laughably poor.

People arent ignoring promises for the disastrous and frankly pathetic implementation to get better.

They are focused on the fact that the introduction was this poor to begin with. And then it was left that way for an unforgivably long amount of time. 

IF DE wanted us to like the operators, they should have finished and polished the feature BEFORE they implemented it. Instead, they did what they always do: Found a feature a very vocal minority on the forum supported, latched onto it, threw it out less than half finished, made most people hate it and waited for the same vocal minority to suggest to them how to fix it. 

This isnt working anymore. 

DE are amazing animators. Great world builders. The moment to moment game play they create is unparalleled in its smoothness, its fun factor and sheer, overall, awe inspiring sleek fun. I mean those things: Warframe has AMAZING game play. Some of the best in modern action games.

But then it also has an over reliance on RNG, the worst bosses in modern gaming, unfinished, unpolished and lackluster, bolt on mechanics and disparate parts that arent even close to being portions of a greater whole.

No one is good at everything. We all have strengths and weaknesses. There's no shame in admitting that while you excel at designing game play and animation, you arent necessarily the best in the business at turning it into a fun, coherent game people enjoy playing for long periods of time. And there is likewise no shame in hiring someone who excels at doing just that. Which is why I think that its high time DE hire a lead designer or project manager or creative director - whatever the title - who can put a layer of polish and finish on their half baked mechanics, and then give them a direction toward combining the parts into a whole that is greater than its portions.

DE do so very much with unparalleled excellence. They just need someone to get them over that last, admittedly large, hump. Its the literal difference between Indie and AAA development: Polish. Coherence. Turning parts into something more than they  appear. DE can make those parts. And they can make them incredibly fun.

What they cannot, is combine them into something more than just disparate parts. So find someone who can. 

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Sajochi said:

The point of the new system is that it's supposed to take time. In the meantime, you get access to gear that also augments operator play. Vets get to step right into the system if they farmed focus, new players of course will have to work towards that power. But we're getting a middle ground that is only hated by 1 quest you unlock at a later time anyways. 

It has already taken time. Operators have sucked for a year now. I have a sack of Focus in Naramon and Vazarin, meaning that it won't be too long before I personally have an Operator who can run, and has a few hundred hitpoints. That still doesn't make this an example of good decisions by DE.

 

Also, Operator writing and dialogue has sucked for two years! It's bad. It is cringe-inducing. It portrays the Operators as stunned twelve year-olds who have no idea what's really going on. If you were to really nail DE down and force them to answer the question "Hey, who actually designed the Dojos? Who designed the Tenno weapons, you know, the ones which the Tenno are explicitly noted as having designed themselves? Who actually codified raw Void power into five discrete Schools?" the answer couldn't be "The Tenno did!" because the next question is "Really? Which Tenno? These ones? These idiots?"

 

Now, DE are trying to say "Operators are warriors!"

 

I'm not buying it. The mechanical improvements look good, but are gated behind months of daily grind when they should have been inherent. The voice lines weren't updated after the War Within, and probably aren't getting fixed now.

 

No sign of any kind of thought about that in sight.

[fatpig84]

To be fair the only time I use operator in combat is only in Kuva and reseting Stalker / Sentient resistances.
Nothing else is of value to me.

[Pendragon1951]

For myself when my Operator can bullett jump and take more than one hit then I'll use him until then i'll keep him in his shell:)

[BornWithTeeth]

I'm serious, though, completely disregarding the issues of:

- Whether people like concept of the Operator

- Whether people like the mechanical implementation of the Operator

- Whether people like the visual design and cosmetic of the Operator...

 

 

Guys, is there anyone out there, anyone at all, saying to DE "Yeah, we really like the Operator voice lines and voice acting, they're great. Don't ever change them, they're perfect,"?

[rudman88]

23 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

THANK YOU.

This is what people seem to be willfully ignoring, that many of the exact mechanical issues they have are being and have been addressed, not to mention that the method of argument tends to be laughably poor.

 

I am technically jsut upset with warframe keep upgrading things most / majority dont like.

For exampel archwing, who wants it ? only a handful liek to play it

Operator, why in the world we need the operator to come, to collect soul, blast things for 5 secs and leave some buff and go back sleep ? Just let me press 5 as extra ability of my frame. I find it good enough

 

 

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

I'm serious, though, completely disregarding the issues of:

- Whether people like concept of the Operator

- Whether people like the mechanical implementation of the Operator

- Whether people like the visual design and cosmetic of the Operator...

 

 

Guys, is there anyone out there, anyone at all, saying to DE "Yeah, we really like the Operator voice lines and voice acting, they're great. Don't ever change them, they're perfect,"?

Independent of the lackluster if serviceable voice acting...the lines themselves were some of the worst, most ill fitting, lore breaking lines it would have been possible to record. And having them serve as barks and call outs - often chosen completely at random because hey, RNG has worked so well for everything else - was beyond ridiculous. The lines feel childish, out of place and do not fit the operator in terms of their presence in the origin system or the life they have lead to date.

The operators were supposed to LOOK like children. The voice lines as written turn into literally naive children. With a penchant for mercenary murder. That is, in this day and age especially, a tad unnerving. 

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Independent of the lackluster if serviceable voice acting...the lines themselves were some of the worst, most ill fitting, lore breaking lines it would have been possible to record. And having them serve as barks and call outs - often chosen completely at random because hey, RNG has worked so well for everything else - was beyond ridiculous. The lines feel childish, out of place and do not fit the operator in terms of their presence in the origin system or the life they have lead to date.

The operators were supposed to LOOK like children. The voice lines as written turn into literally naive children. With a penchant for mercenary murder. That is, in this day and age especially, a tad unnerving. 

The problem is that it appears some kind of glitch has taken place. Not a software glitch! A wetware glitch.

 

The person at DE who wrote the lines was told "The Operators look like children" and they defaulted to "Ah, they are children in a video game, I shall write them like the twerpy protagonists from a Saturday morning cartoon!" and now it's stuck like that and DE have flat out refused to reconsider.

 

God damn it.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

The problem is that it appears some kind of glitch has taken place. Not a software glitch! A wetware glitch.

 

The person at DE who wrote the lines was told "The Operators look like children" and they defaulted to "Ah, they are children in a video game, I shall write them like the twerpy protagonists from a Saturday morning cartoon!" and now it's stuck like that and DE have flat out refused to reconsider.

 

God damn it.

Much as DE excel at moment to moment game, animation, world design and even world building...admitting and correcting mistakes is...not their strength.

I mean, we still have:

invulnerable phases on bosses and enemies

Armor scaling problems

Nullifiers

Archwing

Focus

Operators

The Prime Vault

 

Clearly, acknowledging and correcting mistakes isnt a strength of the studio.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

14 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Much as DE excel at moment to moment game, animation, world design and even world building...admitting and correcting mistakes is...not their strength.

I mean, we still have:

invulnerable phases on bosses and enemies

Armor scaling problems

Nullifiers

Archwing

Focus

Operators

The Prime Vault

 

Clearly, acknowledging and correcting mistakes isnt a strength of the studio.

 

Most of those issues do not have even close to the unanimity of feedback that the specific topic of 'The writing of Operator voice lines' has.

Edited October 9, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[(PSN)dursereg]

8 hours ago, Toran said:

If I had to single out the worst element of Warframe it would be the introduction of Operators to the game. Not because I don't like them per se or their background story... no, it's the obstruction of the game flow that came with the Operators. Their apparition on the battlefield makes zero sense. If they're strong enough to materialize there, they should be able to weave their "magic" through the Warframes, too. Instead you're forced to jump in and out of your frames to do as challenging tasks as pull a lever or stun a kuva guard...

I can't tell I'm very excited about Focus 2.0, especially after learning it will focus even more on Operators. I'll leave that to others... Yeah, I was a Naramon student, it allowed me to play any cheesy frame I wanted to without too much worry about survivability. So it's back to Meta-Frames now, no problem...

But I won't play those bloody, awkward Operators any more, to hell with em - even if it means mission failure.

 

 

I agree with you 10000%. I enjoy playing Warframe not some wanna be Evagelion. As for poe, I don't plan on playing it at all.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, WhiteCr0w said:

Maybe in a few years we'll have some facial hair options. I just want to be the badass middle-aged Warrior who passes down harsh lessons to new students. :(

 

I hope not, because at that point you'll have wasted the most interesting character element of the Operator on people's need to self insert. Then we'll just give in to the other group that won't play Operator unless they're as mobile and tanky as frames and that's another defining aspect of the feature gone.

Those complaints remind me of pretty much 90% of the "buff" suggestions on the forum, where a large amount of players thinks its a good idea to just erode any variety in favor of giving people the illusion of choice.

I'm pretty okay with where DE is taking the Operator character up until this point, though I'm apprehensive about making them stronger/durable, and while there always is something to improve upon when it comes to the details the basic idea is a breath of fresh air in a market where you're pretty much always a 20-40yo hero/ine or a 16yo pretend adult.

I think that emotional relatability outside of the few quests we've gotten is an important reason as to why the Operator isn't liked more, which is the reason I keep bringing up the issue of lacking facial and idle animations that bring life to the character. Just look at HeyKiddo for instance, with just a few poses and a creepy smile that gimmick has more charisma than our Operators, and even though they do show emotional depth in quests, most of the time we see them they're just standing there, or sitting in a chair staring blanky ahead. That needs to change, and even if DE can't get themselves to add animations and poses for free I hope they'll at least provide the possibility to buy them.

[Tricky5hift]

I'd be pretty happy if Operators could at least wallrun.

Also Focus 2.0 and the new Operator mechanics aren't even out yet. Why not wait until they're actually released so you make any sort of final judgement?

Edited October 9, 2017 by Tricky5hift

[Kurnuttaja]

I completely agree with this, operators are stupid and always were. I never liked the operator mode that was introduced in War Within, it would have been fine if it was just used for cinematic quests (or just War Within) but the combat non-sense sucks. The kuva guardians are good example why I hate this, the operator is just a tacked on chore u have to go through in order to damage them, its just plain unfun and possibly worse than nullifiers even

[BornWithTeeth]

@AuroraSonicBoom

 

Better animation would be great, but won't fix the issue of how the Operator writing makes them sound like deeply stupid children who don't actually know what's going on, and who try to sass bosses.

 

Like I said, I would like to ask DE who actually designed the Dojos, researched and built the Tenno weapons, codified and formulated the Schools, all that jazz. The answer cannot be 'the Tenno did,' because the Tenno have literally no idea what they're doing, and DE have gone out of their way to ensure that this is their presentation.

 

Please understand that I am not asking for a badass self insert character.

I am asking for a player character who at least sounds like they know where they are, what they are doing, what's going on around them, and what the stakes are. You understand that there is a difference there?

[LykanBlood]

9 hours ago, Toran said:

If I had to single out the worst element of Warframe it would be the introduction of Operators to the game. Not because I don't like them per se or their background story... no, it's the obstruction of the game flow that came with the Operators. Their apparition on the battlefield makes zero sense. If they're strong enough to materialize there, they should be able to weave their "magic" through the Warframes, too. Instead you're forced to jump in and out of your frames to do as challenging tasks as pull a lever or stun a kuva guard...

I can't tell I'm very excited about Focus 2.0, especially after learning it will focus even more on Operators. I'll leave that to others... Yeah, I was a Naramon student, it allowed me to play any cheesy frame I wanted to without too much worry about survivability. So it's back to Meta-Frames now, no problem...

But I won't play those bloody, awkward Operators any more, to hell with em - even if it means mission failure.

 

 

enjoy never being able to kill a eidolon and being dubbed a leach when attempting to find a party to kill it for you, or dont you remember you HAVE to use your operator to beable to take down an eidolon

 

[GhostLacuna]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I'm serious, though, completely disregarding the issues of:

- Whether people like concept of the Operator

- Whether people like the mechanical implementation of the Operator

- Whether people like the visual design and cosmetic of the Operator...

 

 

Guys, is there anyone out there, anyone at all, saying to DE "Yeah, we really like the Operator voice lines and voice acting, they're great. Don't ever change them, they're perfect,"?

If such a being existed they would not know great writing if it hit them straight in the face at mach 10

[Vox_Preliator]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That at least is encouraging, yes. Beyond that, I was referring to their glacially slow movement (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their tiny health pools (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their lack of health regeneration (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus), their abysmal energy economy (there are two Passives for that, each costs three million Focus), their lack of any kind of armour or protection (there's a Passive for that, it costs three million Focus)...

It's bit rich to take onboard a year's worth of feedback and basically say "We've listened, and we've fixed it all! You can have the fixes by grinding your daily Focus maximum every day for six months!"

To that, I would make the argument that Frames aren't going anywhere.  The Operator doesn't seem to be expected to single-handedly take care of anything, but to act in addition to a Frame.  The goal seems not to have the Operator as an alternative to the Frame, especially right off the bat, but to fluidly use both as necessary.  I think it's that fluidity that this whole thing hinges on for me, if its use doesn't flow then its use won't be enjoyable.  And I don't think that can be adequately judged until we've been able to use it ourselves and get a feel for it.

This is more directed at the forum as a whole than you specifically, but I'm just tired of 80% of the Operator-related complaints being basically nothing.  You have very well-thought out arguments even if I disagree with them, and I thank you for that.  But I find it hard to have a discussion when it seems half of the arguments hold no substance ("Operators are bad because Operators are bad because Tautology" etc.) or have already been addressed, or are just so full of rudeness and vitriol it's difficult to take them seriously.  Discussions are not possible when people refuse to articulate their arguments and/or refuse to hear other arguments, and after the trainwreck of a History class I took last semester ("I encourage discussion because that's how you learn, but if you say anything contrary to my beliefs I will dismiss and ridicule you while lowering your grade so you all had better just act like yes-men while I rant about how much you all suck") having constructive discussions are a bit of a sore spot for me.  If more people would take the time to politely and intelligently explain why they believe X over Y then I think as a whole this forum could get a lot more done, and I don't see why someone shouldn't be dismissed if they can but refuse to do that.

On the topic of their plot development, I agree that their portrayal through The War Within was very poor, I think it would have worked better if they were more disgruntled and less outraged at being treated like a child, and if there had been development in between The Second Dream and The War Within that established the Operator as growing and questioning the Lotus, because it seems jarring going from "waking up" to "running missions unquestionably" to "SHUT UP MOM YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING".  I think it would be a good idea to spend some time developing on what was going on before and immediately after The Second Dream, how they believed they were the warframes and had acted as such.  Offer some good conflict, have the Operator confused as to who and/or what exactly they are, how much of their personality is theirs and how much is the Warframe's and how they grow beyond that.  Also redo pretty much every single mid-mission line, while I think these get a bit too much of a bad rap, I can't deny they definitely aren't good.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Vox_Preliator

[rand0mname]

First. Naramon Shadow Step is overpowered. We have too many instant "I win" buttons as it is. And then we complain about lack of challenge.

Second. Whenever we like them or not, Operators are going to stay. So we can see what DE done with them in PoE and give some constructive feedback. And "I have not tried it, but it's gonna suck" is not an argument.

I am somewhat worried about focus costs, but it can be changed. And we have no idea what bonuses Operator armor and new Arcanes will provide.

But yeh, I would love to know why my war veteran sometimes acts so immature. Have they been brainwashed to keep them in line or something?

[BornWithTeeth]

I am not kidding when I say that I would honestly prefer if my Operator spoke like this:

 

*Lotus gives mission briefing* - Quiet, clipped statement: "Understood, commencing."

*every enemy in tile is dead* - Quiet statement: "Room is clear."

*enter tile which contains mission objective* - "Objective sighted, moving to assume control."

*boss defeated* - "Target down, presumed dead. Proceeding to extraction."

 

 

Because 'space sociopath' would be a better characterisation than 'stupid space twelve year old'.

[GhostLacuna]

39 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

I hope not, because at that point you'll have wasted the most interesting character element of the Operator on people's need to self insert. Then we'll just give in to the other group that won't play Operator unless they're as mobile and tanky as frames and that's another defining aspect of the feature gone.

Those complaints remind me of pretty much 90% of the "buff" suggestions on the forum, where a large amount of players thinks its a good idea to just erode any variety in favor of giving people the illusion of choice.

I'm pretty okay with where DE is taking the Operator character up until this point, though I'm apprehensive about making them stronger/durable, and while there always is something to improve upon when it comes to the details the basic idea is a breath of fresh air in a market where you're pretty much always a 20-40yo hero/ine or a 16yo pretend adult.

I think that emotional relatability outside of the few quests we've gotten is an important reason as to why the Operator isn't liked more, which is the reason I keep bringing up the issue of lacking facial and idle animations that bring life to the character. Just look at HeyKiddo for instance, with just a few poses and a creepy smile that gimmick has more charisma than our Operators, and even though they do show emotional depth in quests, most of the time we see them they're just standing there, or sitting in a chair staring blanky ahead. That needs to change, and even if DE can't get themselves to add animations and poses for free I hope they'll at least provide the possibility to buy them.

What emotional depth?

You mean that inane lost look? 

The fact that they still have no damn clue what is going on at all?

I dont care if they look like children. 

There has been plenty of games and animation as well as books that have managed to have competent children.

The forsaken child and child soldier tropes DE is using are not new. Far from it.

So why are they so afraid to show any maturity or experience from the operators at all.

Frankly with how the tenno crafted the focus schools built the dojo and crafted the weapons of old you almost get the feeling that was a totaly different breed of tenno.

One that is no longer around.

Focus 2.0 might make it better and the controls seems better.

That does not excuse the sub par writing in anyway shape or form.

Maturity in itself has nothing to do with age its just the way your experiences has shaped your mind and your worldview.

Age in itself has only allowed you to collect more experience.

Yet the operators have none of that which is blantantly obvious to anyone that has heard their voicelines and dialogue in quests.

 

[Vox_Preliator]

47 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I am not kidding when I say that I would honestly prefer if my Operator spoke like this:

*Lotus gives mission briefing* - Quiet, clipped statement: "Understood, commencing."

*every enemy in tile is dead* - Quiet statement: "Room is clear."

*enter tile which contains mission objective* - "Objective sighted, moving to assume control."

*boss defeated* - "Target down, presumed dead. Proceeding to extraction."

Because 'space sociopath' would be a better characterisation than 'stupid space twelve year old'.

That would be better, repeated lines wouldn't stand out as much, and it could imply remnants of how they believed they were purely soldiers before they woke up.  Moving forward, while I want them to grow as characters, they should definitely act more like soldiers before they are children, which would also offer a nice contrast between how they behave and how the Lotus treats them, giving a place for that out-of-let-field resentment in The War Within somewhere to have begun.

One thing I thought of, to build on their desire for independence post-Second-Dream, what if mission transmissions were changed to better imply that we are choosing what we're doing?  Make it seem like we were hired to do whatever mission based on the offered reward.  Lotus' lines would still be present in some missions, though with a bit more emphasis on us being hired to do it, but other missions would have a random employer.  Like, you start an Exterminate, and Kela starts a transmission telling you to put on a good show for her viewers or something, or have Darvo asking you to escort his Hijacked Legally Obtained Goods to an extraction point.  Heck, we could just have a couple dozen random Corpus and Grineer names speaking Seargent-style foreignese for various missions, plot-irrelevant side characters that expand our view of the solar system beyond the dozen or so central characters.  This would both offer variety from Lotus as Mission Control, and this would make it seem more like we, as an individual, are choosing which job to take ourselves rather than choosing form a list the Lotus gives us, and are contacting our employer directly.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Gitgud

[Toran]

1 hour ago, Tricky5hift said:

I'd be pretty happy if Operators could at least wallrun.

Also Focus 2.0 and the new Operator mechanics aren't even out yet. Why not wait until they're actually released so you make any sort of final judgement?

Yeah, it's prejudice. But it's prejudice based on past experiences and failures where someone had a vision nobody shared... later those visions became footnotes... Archwing, Lunaro, PvP, Raid missions... It's my conviction that the majority only uses Operators to farm Kuva and otherwise isn't very fond of them.

Sadly, DE never does an in-game poll (not the Forum!) to get some good feedback from the players (and not the forum visitors alone).