Quest frame's prime variants are weird to me? (Mirage prime, Gara prime, etc.)

[Sitchrea]

5 hours ago, Sanxxieh said:

How about Valkyr? Valkyr has been a failed attempt of Zanuka experiment made by Alad V. The scars on the Valkyr's body, her cuffs, collar and rage are the mementos, relics of her pain.
Now Valkyr Prime... has been made before the Alad V Zanuka experiment...
So... yea... a paradox....

The original regular Valkyr was ripped apart by Alad V for her components to make Zanuka - Alad V didn't make Valkyr, only Ballas and the Archimedians can make Warframes.

Here's how it worked: Ballas designed the Valkyr Prime (the prototype) Warframe and presented to the council of Executors for approval. Upon approval, the "Gersemi" Valkyr was put into mass production. After the fall, Alad V found and ripped apart the "Gersemi" Valkyr, creating the default Valkyr we have today.

Make sense?

[(XBOX)DontAskMeIDK]

18 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

The original regular Valkyr was ripped apart by Alad V for her components to make Zanuka - Alad V didn't make Valkyr, only Ballas and the Archimedians can make Warframes.

Here's how it worked: Ballas designed the Valkyr Prime (the prototype) Warframe and presented to the council of Executors for approval. Upon approval, the "Gersemi" Valkyr was put into mass production. After the fall, Alad V found and ripped apart the "Gersemi" Valkyr, creating the default Valkyr we have today.

Make sense?

yep

 

[Sanxxieh]

18 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

The original regular Valkyr was ripped apart by Alad V for her components to make Zanuka - Alad V didn't make Valkyr, only Ballas and the Archimedians can make Warframes.

Here's how it worked: Ballas designed the Valkyr Prime (the prototype) Warframe and presented to the council of Executors for approval. Upon approval, the "Gersemi" Valkyr was put into mass production. After the fall, Alad V found and ripped apart the "Gersemi" Valkyr, creating the default Valkyr we have today.

Make sense?

Would make some sense if not a tiny single issue. The Valkyr Prime design. Her collar, bonds, bolts all over her body, scars, lack of tail (like normal Valkyr, while Gersemi has it), lack of wings (same as the tail). The head of Valkyr Prime is also based on Bastet helmet, nor Gersemi. Basically - her Prime design is based on post-Alad V Valkyr.

So if your theory is correct they would need to have a knowledge of Alad V stealing Gersemi Valkyr and torturing it in far future. They would need to know how it will look like after the tortures. Finally they'd decide to make a warframe based on the horrifying image they've foreseen. (not mention how idiotic it would be to create something they'd know Alad V will steal... but whatsoever)

So yea...
quite does not make sense.

[ElGuirrix]

il y a 18 minutes, Sanxxieh a dit :

Would make some sense if not a tiny single issue. The Valkyr Prime design. Her collar, bonds, bolts all over her body, scars, lack of tail (like normal Valkyr, while Gersemi has it), lack of wings (same as the tail). The head of Valkyr Prime is also based on Bastet helmet, nor Gersemi. Basically - her Prime design is based on post-Alad V Valkyr.

So if your theory is correct they would need to have a knowledge of Alad V stealing Gersemi Valkyr and torturing it in far future. They would need to know how it will look like after the tortures. Finally they'd decide to make a warframe based on the horrifying image they've foreseen. (not mention how idiotic it would be to create something they'd know Alad V will steal... but whatsoever)

So yea...
quite does not make sense.

Then what if Gersemi is just a skin, we never saw how Valkyr really looked before being experimented on by salad, and Valkyr Prime is just Valkyr Prime, made long long ago when the Orokin just thought of winning a war instead of how tenno would later replicate their frames without perfect accuracy?

Edited November 16, 2017 by ElGuirrix

[rand0mname]

For all we know, quest Mirage was Mirage Prime, but we recovered damaged blueprints and build a less flashy Warframe with less shields.

As for the mess known as Valkyr lore...

What if in old times original Valkyr Prime 4th was not a Hysteria but idk... summoning a couple of Kavats?

In trailer she goes berserk only after Corpus used that machine on her. For me it looked like machine interrupted Transference and Operator lost control of the frame and it acted on it's own. Remember how Ballas described Warframes in the same trailer and Rhino Prime codex?

What if a potential for that murderous rage always have been there, but deep down suppressed by original Operator?

And what if after piloting the tortured Gersemi, our Operator is more attuned to the wild side of Valkyr Prime? They may not even remember that Valkyr is capable of something else. Hysteria was all you got on Gersemi, Hysteria is what you get on Prime, yes? And if Operator do remember how 4th ability is supposed to be... maybe summoning a couple of Kavats (no matter how cute) is somewhat underwhelming compared to invincibility?

That being said, all of the above are just mental gymnastics and headcannon I use to justify Valkyr lore. I do hope that we will never run into the same contradictions again.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Here's how I see the Valkyr lore (Beware: MASSIVE speculation ahead):

Valkyr Prime is the real deal, the true original Warframe, powers and all. A Gersemi was captured, then was in the process of being torn apart for the Zanuka project. However, Alad V saw potential in this Warframe, and instead of destroying it or selling it, tried to control it by installing his devices into her ('i.e. the bonds, the device behind the collar, basically all of the Corpus tech). However, at this point, the 'skin' of the Warframe was already used for Zanuka, and he didn't understand how the Gersemi Valkyr was constructed. However, he does know how the original valkyr was built. So, using that knowledge, he tried to reconstruct the Valkyr Warframe skin with the limited Corpus technology he had, which also results in the claw apparatus and collar taking on a much more corpus asthetic. Then, after he was done, he constructed blueprints of this new Valkyr so more could be made.

However, as we all know, the experiments just made her more angry, and she ends up escaping, which causes him to abandon the project.

Well, that's my view anyway.

Edited November 16, 2017 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[(XBOX)DontAskMeIDK]

10 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Here's how I see the Valkyr lore (Beware: MASSIVE speculation ahead):

Valkyr Prime is the real deal, the true original Warframe, powers and all. A Gersemi was captured, then was in the process of being torn apart for the Zanuka project. However, Alad V saw potential in this Warframe, and instead of destroying it or selling it, tried to control it by installing his devices into her ('i.e. the bonds, the device behind the collar, basically all of the Corpus tech). However, at this point, the 'skin' of the Warframe was already used for Zanuka, and he didn't understand how the Gersemi Valkyr was constructed. However, he does know how the original valkyr was built. So, using that knowledge, he tried to reconstruct the Valkyr Warframe skin with the limited Corpus technology he had, which also results in the claw apparatus and collar taking on a much more corpus asthetic. Then, after he was done, he constructed blueprints of this new Valkyr so more could be made.

However, as we all know, the experiments just made her more angry, and she ends up escaping, which causes him to abandon the project.

Well, that's my view anyway.

Not a bad take on the lore since most of it is player speculation

[BelialEliatron]

Le 15/11/2017 à 14:59, (PS4)PS_90210 a dit :

something called Mirage prime, and you can easily access it by farming the relics... What would be the point in playing the quest?

I think, the problem of "Wth is the lore behind Primed-quest-frames?" can be avoiding very easely, instead of the farming problem.

"Why would i doing a quest to get a frame that i'm going to throw when i got the primed one?"

And to this, i'm agree with this:

Le 15/11/2017 à 15:17, (PS4)Homitdog2 a dit :

i think it either will be locked or you will have to use the frame to build the prime like building the ak versions of weapons you get all the parts then use like regular mirage then use her in the recipe

I don't think they'll have a problem to "quest-lock" an access to a Prime-frame, as they do with MR-locked weapons, so this migth be a solution.

PS: Baguette here, excuse the english

[Sitchrea]

3 hours ago, Sanxxieh said:

Would make some sense if not a tiny single issue. The Valkyr Prime design. Her collar, bonds, bolts all over her body, scars, lack of tail (like normal Valkyr, while Gersemi has it), lack of wings (same as the tail). The head of Valkyr Prime is also based on Bastet helmet, nor Gersemi. Basically - her Prime design is based on post-Alad V Valkyr.

So if your theory is correct they would need to have a knowledge of Alad V stealing Gersemi Valkyr and torturing it in far future. They would need to know how it will look like after the tortures. Finally they'd decide to make a warframe based on the horrifying image they've foreseen. (not mention how idiotic it would be to create something they'd know Alad V will steal... but whatsoever)

So yea...
quite does not make sense.

No, it does make sense because the artist behind the Valkyr Prime, Mynki (Who no longer works at DE), acknowledged that Valkyr Prime's design goes against lore on his last Devstream.

[Sanxxieh]

19 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

No, it does make sense because the artist behind the Valkyr Prime, Mynki (Who no longer works at DE), acknowledged that Valkyr Prime's design goes against lore on his last Devstream.

Read your own words... you've just confirmed that even the deginer said the Valkyr Prime makes no sense in lore.... which proves my words even more.

[UncaIroh]

Well, for lore justifications, only Valk really has a problem, the rest could've had primes. For some frames, it might be as simple as requiring apothics to craft (titania prime) or limbo proof fragments for limbo p (but his quest isn't repeatable so that would have to change first) etc.

[Sitchrea]

4 hours ago, Sanxxieh said:

Read your own words... you've just confirmed that even the deginer said the Valkyr Prime makes no sense in lore.... which proves my words even more.

Her design and her place in the story are two different things. Yes, her appearance doesn't make sense, but her having a prime does.

[Sanxxieh]

1 hour ago, Sitchrea said:

Her design and her place in the story are two different things. Yes, her appearance doesn't make sense, but her having a prime does.

Indeed. But since the design is current, her place in the story with her current design is at least questionable. Literally a paradox.

[Sitchrea]

31 minutes ago, Sanxxieh said:

Indeed. But since the design is current, her place in the story with her current design is at least questionable. Literally a paradox.

Not really, since the devs acknowledged her design difference. It's a known issue they cannot fix - but the story remains the same regardless.

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 6:08 AM, Sanxxieh said:

How about Valkyr? Valkyr has been a failed attempt of Zanuka experiment made by Alad V. The scars on the Valkyr's body, her cuffs, collar and rage are the mementos, relics of her pain.
Now Valkyr Prime... has been made before the Alad V Zanuka experiment...
So... yea... a paradox....

Valkyr WAS NOT MADE BY SALAD V

[WindBlade]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:59 PM, (PS4)PS_90210 said:

Alright this has been on my mind, ever since people started talking about the next prime release, and how some Tenno mentioned "Mirage prime". And of course, me being me and me having my sanity inside me at the time, i didn't think anything of it.. Until a few days after, until i realized: How would these prime variants work?

WHY DID I THINK THIS?

Mainly because i thought... uh... financially? What? I was thinking of the more "hidden" side to this Mirage prime thing that not many people, at the least, realize. Because there's something called Mirage prime, and you can easily access it by farming the relics... What would be the point in playing the quest? I get the "Let's just ignore & skip the lore" feel when i think of this. Same with The Silver Grove, let's just skip the stupid flower-picking section, cut to the chase, and get the better variant easier. That would basically "remove" a few quests from certain players that just want the prime. I hate picking flowers in Warframe, it feels stupid, i want to spend time smashing enemies, GRIEFING enemy territory, recording a Minecraft let's play in PoE, like, i don't want to be picking flowers. Then, "Hmm... why go through all the hassle? Just farm the relics, and done."

Another reason, is i guess Lore-based. I see these quest frames as "Artificial" frames. While our more familiar frames, like well... Excalibur, Ash, Loki, Mag, etc. Are all "organic". The quest frames are more rogue, they just aren't as familiar. Quest frames, to me, were all hidden away. They weren't created by Tenno or something, they were created by non-Tenno... I think? Like Inaros, he isn't really a Warframe, but a god-like being. Harrow, too. And if these quest frames were hidden and not public for the Orokin to copy and enhance, these hidden quest frames can't get primed by the Orokin, because the Orokin are long gone, they never knew about these quest frames, because they were hidden away all this time. And they were discovered by the player, long after the Orokin's disappearance. And the Tenno weren't the ones priming the frames, it was the Orokin. 

So no primed quest frames? Well, not exactly.

"ALL FRAMES WILL EVENTUALLY GET A PRIME" (BANDAGE)

Hmm.. not too sure on how to start this section, but BANDAGE. So, i had or have an idea for priming/enhancing these quest frames. Like i said, the Orokin are long gone, we can't just hit them up and ask them to prime our newly discovered Gara. But i thought, maybe we can prime them by ourselves, by raiding an Orokin tower, stealing? Orokin tools, crafting our own prime frames? And it won't simply be "ALRITE WE GOTE DIS OROKIN HAMER LET MEK INEROS PRIM 5000 BASS HELTH EHAHEHAEHEH" No. Basically, taking whatever magic they used to make prime frames, and using it for ourselves. If i put it at it's simplest,

"What's up guys TechRax here, I got Gara, it's finally here guys, this is it, the best frame in the game, ever. I just did the quest and picked her, up, uh... this is amazing. It's absolutely gorgeous. (5 more minutes of pointless rambling) We're going to be throwing this Gara, into this magical Orokin stuff, here, we go, 3, 2, 1, *chucks Gara into Orokin magic stuff* *big explosion* Look at that, the colors all changed, wow"                         "_{it's gara prime u idiot"}

I'm not sure about how this would work, it could be a drop from a new Void Raid, a sortie reward, it could possibly come from relics, i don't know. These "Orokin enhancers", you would only be able to apply them on to quest frames, so that you can't just get an easy Ember prime or something. That way, it won't really mess with lore.

HOW WOULD YOU ACTUALLY CRAFT THE PRIME?

It might seem a small bit grindy, depending on the drop mechanics, but the crafting part isn't hard at all, it's just getting the crafted quest frame, getting the "Orokin enhancer", and of course getting the prime blueprint itself. The blueprint should be obtained by crafting it in the foundry, but combining the regular blueprint, and the Orokin enhancer.

CONCLUSION

Conclusively, i thought normally giving these quest frames would be kinda weird, because that would kinda mess with lore a bit. And also, because like i said in the beginning, some players might miss out on some content, because again, why go through all the hassle for the normal variant? These quest frames were discovered by you, long after the Orokin's disappearance. It's a bit hard to think about how you get acquire Orokin enhancers. Drop from Lua spy? New Void raid? Who knows. 

 

My personal handwave - the bps we 'extract' or gain through the quests are rough interpretations with somes noise and 'flaws'. their the best approximations we can get through limited technology, while Prime bps are getting your hands on the raw, unfiltered 'true' versions.

 

(still think valkye should have visually aped gersemi more than base).

[Wind_Blade]

il y a 1 minute, WindBlade a dit :

My personal handwave - the bps we 'extract' or gain through the quests are rough interpretations with somes noise and 'flaws'. their the best approximations we can get through limited technology, while Prime bps are getting your hands on the raw, unfiltered 'true' versions.

 

(still think valkye should have visually aped gersemi more than base).

Oh .. cool alias xD i have my alias from 2008 .. when you get your ?

[Unus]

Personal opinion? Alad was so thorough in his experimentation that he actually damaged the blueprints. No matter how you "restore" the Warframe, you cannot undo the underlying damage Alad has done. Because we have no access to the original original blueprints from whence the Orokin created the first suit, EVERY Valkyr suit the Tenno create from here on out is based on damaged goods. The only actual method of restoring the Valkyr set would be to turn the clock back to before Alad ever found Valkyr. . . which would change the course of history and potentially destroy everything the Tenno have done since then. 

So, here we are with our faulty copies.

[MisterUltimate]

On 11/15/2017 at 7:59 AM, (PS4)PS_90210 said:

Another reason, is i guess Lore-based. I see these quest frames as "Artificial" frames. While our more familiar frames, like well... Excalibur, Ash, Loki, Mag, etc. Are all "organic". The quest frames are more rogue, they just aren't as familiar. Quest frames, to me, were all hidden away. They weren't created by Tenno or something, they were created by non-Tenno... I think?

There is nothing in the quests to suggest this is true. For example, in the Sands of Inaros quest, the voice tells her child that Inaros was "a warrior of the Golden Skymen", those skymen being the Orokin. So there won't be any lore issues for Primed Quest Frames. Also, one thing you have to accept about Warframe is that content and mechanics aren't twisted to suit lore, rather lore is often twisted to suit content and mechanics.

[Stoner]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:05 PM, Sitchrea said:

The original regular Valkyr was ripped apart by Alad V for her components to make Zanuka - Alad V didn't make Valkyr, only Ballas and the Archimedians can make Warframes.

Here's how it worked: Ballas designed the Valkyr Prime (the prototype) Warframe and presented to the council of Executors for approval. Upon approval, the "Gersemi" Valkyr was put into mass production. After the fall, Alad V found and ripped apart the "Gersemi" Valkyr, creating the default Valkyr we have today.

Make sense?

No, because both the prime and default models have similar parts. However, it would make sense if you ignored the designs, yes. 

Honestly, I could care less about lore in Warframe. It's actually pathetic and you shouldn't be mad about them changing stuff around like they've done so many times (that was me exactly a year ago with Valkyr). Like I've said in the past, if you're playing Warframe for the lore, you're playing the wrong game. 

[Unus]

36 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

No, because both the prime and default models have similar parts. However, it would make sense if you ignored the designs, yes. 

Honestly, I could care less about lore in Warframe. It's actually pathetic and you shouldn't be mad about them changing stuff around like they've done so many times (that was me exactly a year ago with Valkyr). Like I've said in the past, if you're playing Warframe for the lore, you're playing the wrong game. 

Heh, guess it's time for me to hang up my Cycron for the last time then.

[Cubewano]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:57 AM, Sanxxieh said:

Would make some sense if not a tiny single issue. The Valkyr Prime design. Her collar, bonds, bolts all over her body, scars, lack of tail (like normal Valkyr, while Gersemi has it), lack of wings (same as the tail). The head of Valkyr Prime is also based on Bastet helmet, nor Gersemi. Basically - her Prime design is based on post-Alad V Valkyr.

So if your theory is correct they would need to have a knowledge of Alad V stealing Gersemi Valkyr and torturing it in far future. They would need to know how it will look like after the tortures. Finally they'd decide to make a warframe based on the horrifying image they've foreseen. (not mention how idiotic it would be to create something they'd know Alad V will steal... but whatsoever)

So yea...
quite does not make sense.

That isn't really necessary, the orokin do not so much need to know valkyr would like in the future so much as alad just simply had to have an idea of how the frame looked like in the past, which isn't nearly as unrealistic. Perhaps the current valkyr isn't meant to be the furthest variant from the original, but a more successful attempt at getting back to the origins of the design without void relics.

[CaptainMinty]

Every frame existed during the Orokin era, each one being created as a Prime first. Thusly, I believe each Frame to have the embodiment of their original owners as well as based on an idea by Ballas. The original operator of each frame must have had something in common with their frames to best showcase the frame's abilities. So the frames we hear about in lore, the ones that crop up such as Mirage and Limbo were the original owners of the frame.

Therefore, in the quests for Mirage and Limbo, the frame we are chasing is the Prime version, however, we end up with the base model due to the damage the received upon their passing. Mirage for example became too badly damaged for the original Orokin design to be fully realized from what little we had left to build our blueprints off of. Limbo broke himself apart, utterly annihilating his frame and spreading it across the system. Limbo Prime is imo one of the more feasible quest frames to be primed as I believe the original Limbo Prime to be stuck in a transference loop and communicating through math to Ordis to bring back the Limbo warframe. 

Lore is really tricky, and speculation is the best we have until answers are given. I believe Quest frames to be original operators becoming legends and growing attached to locations or people. These original Operators to be still out there, perhaps stuck in transference loops, or dead and gone. Inaros, Gara, all of them originally Prime Frames that became famous for their deeds.

The only one that baffles me is Chroma. As we know so far, Warframes without an operator don't work, or even act too often without our direction. Extreme circumstances have drawn a small moment of free will, but, I find it hard to believe that Chroma is acting independently of an Operator in The New Strange. A question for another thread maybe. 

[Sanxxieh]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)RevenantRequiem said:

Valkyr WAS NOT MADE BY SALAD V

I guess you misunderstood my words.
He did not create Valkyr. He made her being what we know though.

It is like Wolverine in X-Men. Wolverine lived before "Weapon X Project" experiment. But the Wolverine we know (with his adamantium skelly and claws, serious memory problems and endless pain) was made by the experiment. Those have made the current Wolverine but they did not create him.

Same like Valkyr - she was created by Orokin but made by Alad V. At least that would be truth if not the lore issues caused by the design.

[SilvaDreams]

Valkyr Prime = The Golden Age era Valkyr, when we walked with the masses as a symbol of Orokin power

Gersemi Valkyr = The mass produced war model

Normal Valkyr = The mauled version we made a blueprint after Alad V experimented on a Gersemi model (The lore is confusing because people forget we still thought we were the Warframes at that point)