Catalyst And Reactors: The Ugly Pay to Progress Impression

[NekroArts]

Here's a fun thing to read about Dungeon Keeper: 

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/electronic-arts-ltd-a14-258907.html#.U7P4LfldV8H

Spoiler

If you haven't read the case study I suggest you do before reading any further otherwise you may misunderstand what I'm pointing out. Unlike Dungeon Keeper, the progression gap via reactors/catalyst is far less severe with Warframe. Players can cover (my guess) about half, if not two-thirds, of the star chart without them before progression starts to slow down. While EA voiced that Dungeon Keeper was free-to-play, the amount of "wait time" was far too high in ratio to progression. All in all, there is line between categorizing a game as free-progression and pay-to-progress, and Warframe reasonably sits in free-progression.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by NekroArts

[Tricky5hift]

The impression exists to encourage players to spend money. Thats what F2P games do...

Are you arguing that a system specifically designed to make money shouldn't be allowed to make money?

[--F--NerevarCM]

3 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Look...let me say it again: my intention here wasn't to accuse DE of foisting Pay to Progress on players. So...I'm genuinely sorry if it came off that way.

"Catalyst And Reactors: The Ugly, Pay-to-Progress Truth"

Yeah, it really wasn't your intention...

[BlackCoMerc]

6 minutes ago, Sabreracer said:

I'm sitting on 8 reactors and have 16 more BP in my foundry with 15 catalysts but only 4 BP and I don't bother farming them anymore I just pick up the GotL ones.

All my Frames, Doges, Kitties and Sentinals are all reactored but only the weapons I feel are worthwhile get a cat.  Having said all that you can bypass the need for a reactor in a Warframe with Forma you would lose build flexibility and with weapons in somecases you still wouldn't be able to push it to the max.

Now Frame and Weapon slots I would agree with you're limited to just a few if you don't drop Plat on slots.

 

Slots are a whole other can of worms. Contrary to the impression this thread probably gives, I don't mind the Potato system. I mean seriously, if you play long enough to care about wanting them, would it REALLY hurt to drop, what...$7.99 to get a couple? I don't honestly think it would.

But Slots...that's a system I genuinely don't care for. I don't know what the solution is. Or if another solution exists. But I really don't like the slot limits myself.

Be that as it may, yes, Warframe has a pretty remarkably fair free model. Excessive grind, at times, but a reasonably fair business model, for a free game.

Besides...Ninja Parkour is fun, so, the grind isn't all that bad, considering the game play used to do it is pretty engaging and fun.

[Quimoth]

Every stream, 3000 platinum or MORE is released for FREE into the game. So yes in theory nobody has to pay a freaking dime and we still all get our slots and potatoes in the end. It will take forever, which is exactly what real money is used for in this game, to boost your progress, not to LOCK progress.

Call every single comment about the warframe monetizing being fair garbage, but that won't change the fact that it is one of the better free to play games. This game isn't pay to win (like most f2p shooters).

This game even allows you to get almost anything trough TRADING.

Potatoes and forma are MEANT to force you into thinking about what you do with them.

The entire point of warframe is that you LIKE the game and support it so you can get your fancy end-game cosmetic fashion-frame or just so you don't have to wait till the catalyst/reactor drops from an invasion/alert.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Quimoth

[Shalath]

As has been stated you get free cats and potatoes in various ways so yes it is completely free but you have to be patient if you want that next potato. If you want to rush that build because you have used up all of your free potatoes you have spend some plat.

That mechanic seems familiar somehow...

[SqualZell]

39 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I knew I'd find this same garbage here.

That isn't "for free." Play comes from SOMEONE spending money. Kind of makes my point for me, thanks.

so according to this logic, nothing in this world is free, cuz someone paid somewhere along the line.

Free Samples, Free Movie, buy one get one free. none of that is free. 

"there is no such thing as a free lunch"

so now that technicalities are out of the way

potatoes can be FREE TO YOU and very generously given out too. 

this thread itself is garbage and is giving new players the wrong impression. YOU can play this game 100 % free. 

also

1 potato = 10 relic missions. 

1 potato = a 24 hour alert twice a month. 

thats 1 potato per 1-2 hours (ish) FREE TO YOU!

[Tricky5hift]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Slots are a whole other can of worms. Contrary to the impression this thread probably gives, I don't mind the Potato system. I mean seriously, if you play long enough to care about wanting them, would it REALLY hurt to drop, what...$7.99 to get a couple? I don't honestly think it would.

But Slots...that's a system I genuinely don't care for. I don't know what the solution is. Or if another solution exists. But I really don't like the slot limits myself.

Be that as it may, yes, Warframe has a pretty remarkably fair free model. Excessive grind, at times, but a reasonably fair business model, for a free game.

Besides...Ninja Parkour is fun, so, the grind isn't all that bad, considering the game play used to do it is pretty engaging and fun.

Just be glad that DE hasn't stooped to EA's level of scumbag and encourage microtransactions in a premium game.

Keep microtransactions in free games where they belong is what I say.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tricky5hift

[DiabolusUrsus]

@BlackCoMerc

Sorry, but I can't agree with this.

Yes, potatoes are needed to progress. No, their relative rarity doesn't make them pay-to-progress.

If a player is potatoing every piece of gear they come across and thus running out constantly, that's their indiscretion and they have to deal with the consequences.

If, however, a player is more conservative with applying the boost and prioritizes gear that they enjoy using... Then 1 reactor and 3 catalysts in and they should be set for a good while. Then, they can work on saving up a stockpile of potatoes while gradually filling out their favorites.

That's exactly what I did when I was starting out, and potatoes were a LOT less readily available circa U7. To date, I have not spent a penny on WF potatoes, nor will I ever need to the way things are shaping up.

True, it can feel like a serious drought to newer players... But all they need is to be shown where the figurative water is, whether through their own research or through a mentor of sorts.

At the very least, it would be nice to have a set of tutorials showing players where to get vital stuff like potatoes/forma.

Now inventory slots... There's a pay-to-progress trap right there.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

Just be glad that DE hasn't stooped to EA's level of scumbag and encourage microtransactions in a premium game.

Yeah, that's an inexcusable line to cross. I agree.

[Grave.Knight]

28 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

You mean shorter right?

I meant how long the alerts last, not how often they show up.

[Sabreracer]

Let us not speak the name of a Major Publisher that not only wants your $60 in the first place but then wants you to drop hundreds of $$$ on microtransactions to boost your progress within that game.

Now that is Evil Activity 

 

Edit : and someone beat me to it 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Sabreracer

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

@BlackCoMerc

Sorry, but I can't agree with this.

Yes, potatoes are needed to progress. No, their relative rarity doesn't make them pay-to-progress.

If a player is potatoing every piece of gear they come across and thus running out constantly, that's their indiscretion and they have to deal with the consequences.

If, however, a player is more conservative with applying the boost and prioritizes gear that they enjoy using... Then 1 reactor and 3 catalysts in and they should be set for a good while. Then, they can work on saving up a stockpile of potatoes while gradually filling out their favorites.

That's exactly what I did when I was starting out, and potatoes were a LOT less readily available circa U7. To date, I have not spent a penny on WF potatoes, nor will I ever need to the way things are shaping up.

True, it can feel like a serious drought to newer players... But all they need is to be shown where the figurative water is, whether through their own research or through a mentor of sorts.

At the very least, it would be nice to have a set of tutorials showing players where to get vital stuff like potatoes/forma.

Now inventory slots... There's a pay-to-progress trap right there.

That's a very reasoned way to look at it. You make good points.

I do wish someone had explained the potato system to me a little better early on. Or that the game had. I wasn't as...selective...as I know wish I'd been with where I used my Reactors and Catalysts. Which lead to needing.more of the.for the truly good stuff later.

Did lead to me spending to support the game though.

Thanks for the thought out response.

[SqualZell]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

[...]

Now inventory slots... There's a pay-to-progress trap right there.

 

10 lith relic missions = 1 frame slot

15 lith relic missions = 4 weapon slots

10 lith relic missions = 1 potato of your choice

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

10 lith relic missions = 1 frame slot

15 lith relic missions = 4 weapon slots

10 lith relic missions = 1 potato of your choice

It's the same issue of educating newer players, but less readily apparent.

If a player has a hard time figuring out how to find potatoes/forma due to lack of information, slots and selling prime parts are even more obscure.

Trade chat is also a cutthroat and uninviting cesspit that I don't really consider a reasonable alternative for NEW players who are the ones that will be dealing with this.

It's why I called it a "pay-to-progress TRAP."

Not saying that it's required to pay... Just that it's by far the easiest and most accessible option given the relative cheapness of slots.

[Diponegoro]

maybe DE can make it like forma, obtainable from fissure.

or atleast from syndicate.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

1 hour ago, Tricky5hift said:

Can't you just sell some stuff for plat and buy a Catalyst, Reactor, or Slots at literally any time?

What, were you expecting to get these things without any effort whatsoever?

Your massive agressive tone.. I love it.

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's the same issue of educating newer players, but less readily apparent.

If a player has a hard time figuring out how to find potatoes/forma due to lack of information, slots and selling prime parts are even more obscure.

Trade chat is also a cutthroat and uninviting cesspit that I don't really consider a reasonable alternative for NEW players who are the ones that will be dealing with this.

It's why I called it a "pay-to-progress TRAP."

Not saying that it's required to pay... Just that it's by far the easiest and most accessible option given the relative cheapness of slots.

You phrased this very well. It exactly mirrors my concern. This sort of feel/impression is what lead me to post this concern.

If the game doesn't do anything to inform new players of ways in which they CAN acquire Potatoes or Plat for free...then it's leaving them with the IMPRESSION that the only way to max stuff, is to pay.

It's the IMPRESSION of Pay to Progress, regardless of the reality, that's the issue.

And also, yes...trade chat is awful.

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, Diponegoro said:

maybe DE can make it like forma, obtainable from fissure.

or atleast from syndicate.

I think Highest Rank required, plus 50-100k Rep, for Potatoes, is pretty reasonable. Good idea.

[Tokens210]

In the past month i believe we've had 3 catalyst alerts, 1 or 2 reactor alerts, a catalyst invasion reward, as well as the gift to players for dealing with the POE and twitch campaign server issues which i think was a reactor and catalyst and riven alert all at the same time

 

altho i personally think we should be able to farm catalyst bp just like we can farm forma bp from fissure missions, reactors should stay rare

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tokens210

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Tokens210 said:

In the past month i believe we've had 3 catalyst alerts, 1 or 2 reactor alerts, a catalyst invasion reward, as well as the gift to players for dealing with the POE and twitch campaign server issues which i think was a reactor and catalyst and riven alert all at the same time

Ok. 

But WHEN, and for HOW LONG, we're those alerts? That's the other part of this concern: just because they DO happen, doesn't mean they're a reliable source of, well...anything.

[Tokens210]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Ok. 

But WHEN, and for HOW LONG, we're those alerts? That's the other part of this concern: just because they DO happen, doesn't mean they're a reliable source of, well...anything.

every gift of the lotus or gift in general is 24 hour minimum alert time, altho the one for the server issues was crazy long, i think like 2 days

 

we also have to account for time zone differences, DE uses Eastern Time, the games servers dont, game servers are GMT i believe. which is wy gift alerts are always a minimum of 24 hr so everyone gets a chance atleast

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tokens210

[SqualZell]

3 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

You phrased this very well. It exactly mirrors my concern. This sort of feel/impression is what lead me to post this concern.

If the game doesn't do anything to inform new players of ways in which they CAN acquire Potatoes or Plat for free...then it's leaving them with the IMPRESSION that the only way to max stuff, is to pay.

It's the IMPRESSION of Pay to Progress, regardless of the reality, that's the issue.

And also, yes...trade chat is awful.

 

so edit your bait thread title 

"Catalyst And Reactors: The Ugly, Pay-to-Progress Truth"

to reflect your concern

Catalyst And Reactor: The New Player Concern Misconception"

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

 

so edit your bait thread title 

"Catalyst And Reactors: The Ugly, Pay-to-Progress Truth"

to reflect your concern

Catalyst And Reactor: The New Player Concern Misconception"

Changed to Ugly Pay to Progress Impression. Because it is an ugly Impression to give, intentionally or otherwise.

Like I said previously, I think this is an area where the game needs to do more to educate new players.

[RistN]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And yet...these items aren't available to free players. Not with anything remotely approaching Reliability in terms of either frequency or quantity. Especially true for Reactors.

so far from the truth.Maybe you don't play this game much...I am a working man myself but I've managed to get around 30 reactors and about 10 catalyst in my inventory witch I wont be using until something new comes.I am mr 24 and catalyst are always needed but I always get them for free,while reactors are just piling up.