Ash rework needed on console badly

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Yea it can, mark this thread because i specifically showed my wife that combo counter + BS can bleed out 150s very easily. 

Once i get home ill post a video. I have 7 hours until i get home.

ummm did you not read what was written? He said blad storm ALONE. You cannot factor in the combo counter because that was ALWAYS there since beta. He didn't say that a high counter couldn't kill them. In normal game play you won't have a high multiplier anyways so those arguements are invalid. It will only show up in single player or under extremely specific conditions.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

ummm did you not read what was written? He said blad storm ALONE. You cannot factor in the combo counter because that was ALWAYS there since beta. He didn't say that a high counter couldn't kill them. In normal game play you won't have a high multiplier anyways so those arguements are invalid. It will only show up in single player or under extremely specific conditions.

Actually it wasn't since beta. It was when the clones were added. It was a bug though for most of the time but eventually it was declared a feature of the ability. Kind of like Multishot not using additional ammo, same deal with Steel Charge.

A 2x Multiplier would be enough to make BS kill with Bleeds the target.

The problems with the ability isn't the damage actually. The damage is fine. The problems are:

-Ridiculous energy cost

-Pointless Multi-marking

-Marking reticle being too small.

-Execution being too slow.

-SScreen not pausing during it.

 

The ability could easily be fixed if:

-It's changed from a toggle to a 6-10s marking mode that costs 100 energy to activate and can be unleashed prematurely by pressing 4 (or unleash on it's own when timer runs out)

-Marking reticle is increased in width

-Multimarking is either removed or tied to ability level (so at max rank it applies all 3 marks at once)

-Clones sharing the job instead of following Ash, so essentially you see only 1/3rd or 1/4th of the cutscenes

-SScreen pausing during it

 

You can see that's almost like going back to pre-nerf BS.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Nazrethim

[SirWranwrap]

Bladestorms only use now is invulnerability once in a blue moon.

And unless you enjoy the best way to play the skill (bldstrm) being spazzing your camera over the entire room as fast as possible theres no reason to make even a joke build for the skill.

[(PSN)thowed]

Stripping armor, bladestorming sortie 3 enemies with hardly any power strength, invisible to resurrect the Mesas who fall, fatal teleport really tough enemies, slash and finisher damage, doesn't get 1 shotted like Loki out of invisibility.  Yeah he's useless.  Just say you don't like the manual targeting or animations for bladestorm because that's the real issue.  Go invisible, spin for 2 seconds and almost everything is targeted.  Don't know about PC but it's easy to Target on PS4.  I use him to solo alot of stuff that would be a bother with other frames.  People just mad his 1 hit nuke is gone and won't get over it.

[Jim22]

No Ash doesn't need another rework he is fine if you don't like how he works then play a different frame.  Or play Ash differently build him for smoke screen or something.

[(PSN)psycofang]

32 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

ummm did you not read what was written? He said blad storm ALONE.

Unless i missed it, as to which i definitely could have, he did not say BS "alone" just that BS could ONLY kill level 100 mooks with 3 marks.

32 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

In normal game play you won't have a high multiplier anyways

So level 45-80 isnt nornal gameplay?

34 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

For the purpose of !!Science!! (it's like Science, but with more Fun, screaming, Fun, death, magma and Fun.) do it at default power values, no steel charge, no combo counter and vs lvl100 enemies, single mark. Thank you in advance.

 

So what youre saying is you want an ability that does 6k total (accounting for bleed) damage to be able to kill a level 100 with no modifications or using any systems involved to increase its damage? 

This doesnt sound like utter nonsense to you?

What other dps can do what youre asking? Kill high level targets at base power and no involved systems.

25 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Pointless Multi-marking

-Marking reticle being too small.

-Execution being too slow.

-SScreen not pausing during it.

I've never personally had energy issues on ash but i can see your issues l besides SS pausing. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Am I reading this right? On PS4 you look left then right. Everyone is now marked.

And he does have a niche. He's a melee fighter. Far away? Teleport, kill the first guy, turn invisible, keep slashing his friends. Combo counter about to run out and no one next to you? Activate bladestorm. There's tons of mods based around melee slash damage. There's no reason now to not be a slash monster with Ash.

And a simple fix to bladestorm would be giving it a different economy like Nidus based on the combo counter. Hit a certain combo count, you get a charge. Could even revert it or buff it because it wouldn't be spammable.

Edited December 3, 2017 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Cubewano]

14 minutes ago, Jim22 said:

No Ash doesn't need another rework he is fine if you don't like how he works then play a different frame.  Or play Ash differently build him for smoke screen or something.

That sounds like a solution, something isn't balanced? Don't try to fix/improve it, just throw it in the closet and never look at it again!

[Cubewano]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Stripping armor, bladestorming sortie 3 enemies with hardly any power strength, invisible to resurrect the Mesas who fall, fatal teleport really tough enemies, slash and finisher damage, doesn't get 1 shotted like Loki out of invisibility.  Yeah he's useless.  Just say you don't like the manual targeting or animations for bladestorm because that's the real issue.  Go invisible, spin for 2 seconds and almost everything is targeted.  Don't know about PC but it's easy to Target on PS4.  I use him to solo alot of stuff that would be a bother with other frames.  People just mad his 1 hit nuke is gone and won't get over it.

requires an augment, fatal teleport is more practical, can be done by operator and pretty much any frame with cc/stealth/barriers (that mesa is more durable than ash also so odds are she'd be picking you up), nobody should have guns to shoot loki with if they are being used right. Yes, he is useless. He's an underwhelming frame, with a kit that requires augments as a baseline to have a purpose, and even then he just gets a modicum of purpose in the sense of having good single target burst which is highly irrelevant given both the design of this game (horde shooter) and how most weapons are just as effective if not more in general scaling situations. I can only assume you don't have many frames if your fall back for easy solo is ash. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cubewano

[Jim22]

Well I don't use Ash anymore and when I do I use his smoke screen even before Ash got his rework I was starting to get bored with Ash and pressing 4.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

His ultimate definitely needs to be changed to something--I don't know, it just should be changed. I only used it before the rework to get through sortie defense quickly as and the problem is now it only really works or works for the best is when you're alone and people haven't already killed what you just tagged. 

[TzXtetriC]

I never had the chance to see Ash in his bladestorm form but that made him unique coz no other frame does that and if you take away that, please take away embers 4, banshees 4, saryns 2+1, equinoxs 4 as well or tone it down to manually aim too.

Want balance?

Edited December 3, 2017 by TzXtetriC

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Jim22 said:

No Ash doesn't need another rework he is fine if you don't like how he works then play a different frame.  Or play Ash differently build him for smoke screen or something.

Blade Storm cannot be used outside of max efficiency builds due to it's ridiculous cost though.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

So what youre saying is you want an ability that does 6k total (accounting for bleed) damage to be able to kill a level 100 with no modifications or using any systems involved to increase its damage? 

This doesnt sound like utter nonsense to you?

You would be testing Blade Storm, not what mods do to Blade Storm. IF the ability is as good as the defenders of the undefendable claim, then it should work at default values. You will find that damage is actually very high, but it¡s slow as a snail and the cost is ridiculous.

3 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

What other dps can do what youre asking? Kill high level targets at base power and no involved systems.

No other ability uses 100-450 energy on just 10 enemies. Nor take 10s to attack them.

3 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

I've never personally had energy issues on ash but i can see your issues l besides SS pausing. 

If you run on max efficiency you don't run into issues with a Rage mod on you don't run into issues, though Shuriken still outperforms it until lvl 30s and melee and guns outperform it at all level ranges. The ability has damage, but that's meaningless if it takes forever to attack.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

His ultimate definitely needs to be changed to something--I don't know, it just should be changed. I only used it before the rework to get through sortie defense quickly as and the problem is now it only really works or works for the best is when you're alone and people haven't already killed what you just tagged. 

And you aren't in a hurry. Try to use it to clear a defense target that it's overrun and your target will die before you finish half the storm.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, TzXtetriC said:

I never had the chance to see Ash in his bladestorm form but that made him unique coz no other frame does that and if you take away that, please take away embers 4, banshees 4, saryns 2+1, equinoxs 4 as well or tone it down to manually aim too.

Want balance?

For comparison:

pre-nerf Blade Storm.

-100 energy.

-18 targets or 18 attacks (which is roughly 5.5 energy per attack)

-Doesn't work on Eximi or Ancients (you required to have medium awareness to not hit them, or be an idiot spammer and get stuck on it)

-20m range to tag the primary target and every enemy in 20m radius around it.

-3 clones showed up to split the job (unless you were reduced to 1 target, see eximi example above) so you got to see 3-4 cutscenes if you tagged all 18 enemies (so you finished in like 4-6s)

 

Current BS:

-15 energy per mark, up to 3 marks, reduced by 30% if invisible. (marking 18 attacks equals between 180 minimum with single mark+invisibility and 810 if you apply 3 marks and no invisibility)

-Up to 50 targets can be marked (for a total of 150 marks active)

-50m marking range. If enemy goes beyond that mark is removed and refunded

-Marks of enemies that die before the mark is used are refunded.

-2 clones show up to use the second and third mark if applied, Ash attacks everyone individually (which means 18 enemies take 18s to kill)

-You need to mark every enemy personally.

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I just swipe right on the touch pad, sweep my cursor over everything, then tap R1. I understand this takes more time than just tapping a single button, and in multiplayer standing still means a death sentence.

Still, once mapped to R1 a quick double press is still usable.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 hours ago, TzXtetriC said:

I never had the chance to see Ash in his bladestorm form but that made him unique coz no other frame does that and if you take away that, please take away embers 4, banshees 4, saryns 2+1, equinoxs 4 as well or tone it down to manually aim too.

Want balance?

That is exactly the point everyone misses. They want it balanced but they don't want it balanced for THIS game. THIS game is all about mass destruction in a very short time.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 hour ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

I just swipe right on the touch pad, sweep my cursor over everything, then tap R1. I understand this takes more time than just tapping a single button, and in multiplayer standing still means a death sentence.

Still, once mapped to R1 a quick double press is still usable.

Usable on what a single target to hit once? How is that any good? Fatal teleport already does this why even press 4? Not sure how PS4 works but on Xbox One double press usually means nothing happens but maybe my finger works faster than yours i dunno.

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

To be fair, I never use Ashs 4 in multiplayer because its range is awful (or it was when I last played), and it was just easier to spam shurikens and finish people off with my primary.

Using his 4 has never been the problem, rather his 4 hasnt been worth using over other powers.

[Hypernaut1]

It takes less time to triple mark a high level enemy than it does to ADS and use your primary to kill it.

If you are able to aim at and kill enemies with primaries...I don't see how you're having so much trouble with bladestorm.

Bladestorm is for the most part fine.

Ash is a frame that can survive and kill in ALL content without issue. He's not an AoE frame, but there is no content he can't do. 

Ash is an as assassin frame. His specialty is taking out high priority targets, not nuking rooms. He leaves the to other frames.

The players complaining just want a frame that can cruise to top kills at end of mission. They see a powerful frame and think " i should be the one killing everything!" No, in low levels Ash won't be tops in kills. In high levels, like sorties, Ash will begin to outshine other nukes and weapons as the other players start running from enemies. His kits takes down anything..... It's. Just. Not. A. Nuke.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Plus, why is everyone arguing about Ash in POE and talking about sorties, enemies and multipliers? The OP said in multiplayer he was unusable. 

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It takes less time to triple mark a high level enemy than it does to ADS and use your primary to kill it.

If you are able to aim at and kill enemies with primaries...I don't see how you're having so much trouble with bladestorm.

Bladestorm is for the most part fine.

Ash is a frame that can survive and kill in ALL content without issue. He's not an AoE frame, but there is no content he can't do. 

Ash is an as assassin frame. His specialty is taking out high priority targets, not nuking rooms. He leaves the to other frames.

The players complaining just want a frame that can cruise to top kills at end of mission. They see a powerful frame and think " i should be the one killing everything!" No, in low levels Ash won't be tops in kills. In high levels, like sorties, Ash will begin to outshine other nukes and weapons as the other players start running from enemies. His kits takes down anything..... It's. Just. Not. A. Nuke.

You sir are totally wrong. Post a video or it's just plain out you spitting garbage.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It takes less time to triple mark a high level enemy than it does to ADS and use your primary to kill it.

If you are able to aim at and kill enemies with primaries...I don't see how you're having so much trouble with bladestorm.

Bladestorm is for the most part fine.

Ash is a frame that can survive and kill in ALL content without issue. He's not an AoE frame, but there is no content he can't do. 

Ash is an as assassin frame. His specialty is taking out high priority targets, not nuking rooms. He leaves the to other frames.

The players complaining just want a frame that can cruise to top kills at end of mission. They see a powerful frame and think " i should be the one killing everything!" No, in low levels Ash won't be tops in kills. In high levels, like sorties, Ash will begin to outshine other nukes and weapons as the other players start running from enemies. His kits takes down anything..... It's. Just. Not. A. Nuke.

As far as top killer. I can just use almost ANY other frame and be top killer in the group. I have both time and money invested into the game so I have some of the best weapons and mods but with Ash he just dies unless you use him as a Loki clone and that is just boring AND Loki does it better. I want ash to be unique... not a "nuke" as you claim... but also fit the game that he is in. 

The game is 100% about speed and his ability does not fit this game. 

So if you going to make his ability "marks" then make every one press skill AoE in the game EXACTLY the same.

What's good for the goose is good for the Gander. Right?

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

"Ash is an as assassin frame. His specialty is taking out high priority targets, not nuking rooms. He leaves the to other frames."

How do you do this? This game is fast paced and nothing stops moving. Unless another frame makes them stop which cannot be included in this because everyone who plays the end game knows nothing survives more than 2 seconds. and if you can "mark" enemies in 2 seconds without just selecting a single hit, I'll say you sir are hacking.