Ash rework needed on console badly

[Cubewano]

Just now, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

This thread is 100% a joke.

care to clarify?

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

That only applies if you are building around bleeds and your melee doesn't deal enough on its own to need it, in most gameplay it generally won't make a difference, constantly popping in and out of invis will be more of a burden. And Ash's stun only mildly mitigates the increased risk that comes from more frequently becoming a visible target, it isn't a one up over Loki's longer stealth, being targeted less trumps being targeted frequently but just not point blank, in a game with lots of ranged units. 

You're being a little selective to posture your vague argument here that Loki is better. If you're in low-level content, being invisible all the time doesn't really matter because enemies aren't that threatening. If you're in content where being seen and targeted by ranged units is posing a significant threat, I would argue that Ash is more effective because he kills enemies faster (as long as it takes more than one hit to kill them), and having your enemies dead is much safer than having your self cloaked for longer. If your argument is that Loki is more convenient with stealth melee, that's correct. I contest that Ash is more effective at stealth melee at any point where a choice between the two might actually affect your victory, since Ash's stealth comes with an added CC bonus, and he tons piles of Armor-bypassing damage that Loki doesn't have access to.

If you want to compare between stealth frames' efficacy, the best is Ivara and always will be. She can stay invisible indefinitely, stealing extra loot while she murders everything.

[Cubewano]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

You're being a little selective to posture your vague argument here that Loki is better. If you're in low-level content, being invisible all the time doesn't really matter because enemies aren't that threatening. If you're in content where being seen and targeted by ranged units is posing a significant threat, I would argue that Ash is more effective because he kills enemies faster (as long as it takes more than one hit to kill them), and having your enemies dead is much safer than having your self cloaked for longer. If your argument is that Loki is more convenient with stealth melee, that's correct. I contest that Ash is more effective at stealth melee at any point where a choice between the two might actually affect your victory, since Ash's stealth comes with an added CC bonus, and he tons piles of Armor-bypassing damage that Loki doesn't have access to.

If you want to compare between stealth frames' efficacy, the best is Ivara and always will be. She can stay invisible indefinitely, stealing extra loot while she murders everything.

Not really, in higher level content Loki can heavily minimize that risk by being able to disarm all enemies within the vicinity, which is far safer than a slightly faster kill speed with specific weapons. I also think you are really over estimating the stun on Ash's invis, it isn't a large aoe stun, it isn't protecting him from anything that isn't really close, and it isn't spammable. His higher armor does make him a more forgiving frame should mistakes be made however, but I'm unsure to what degree.

Yeah, Ivara is probably the safest of them all, and while able to provide stealth for allies as well.  

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

6 hours ago, Cubewano said:

care to clarify?

I think he's calling this thread a joke because OP seems to think that 100% of Ash's playstyle/usefulness was spamming his old bladestorm.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Bro just don’t play him. I was an ash main for 2 years but he got boring. His rework came and I was expecting it to pull me back into using him. 

It did not.

 

Excalibur is now my life.

Edited December 4, 2017 by (XB1)OTF SERENiTY

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

I think he's calling this thread a joke because OP seems to think that 100% of Ash's playstyle/usefulness was spamming his old bladestorm.

OPs original topic was about Ash's BS usefulness in conclave. Which if u have ever tried using BS in conclave it is useless. 

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

12 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Actually, any sane player will ignore Bladestorm coz it's a joke and just impractical to use. And that's exactly the point of this thread. BS is useless and need a real rework.

Use another frame then if you dont like it

[Marvelous_A]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)BlackcoatOne said:

Use another frame then if you dont like it

Well then what's the point of having the first "rework" then.

If you don't like BS just another frame/ play solo/ don't use it. What. 

If you don't like this thread, just get out. <- Basically what you meant by "use another frame if you don't like it"

Edited December 5, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

2 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Well then what's the point of having the first "rework" then.

If you don't like BS just another frame/ play solo/ don't use it. What. 

If you don't like this thread, just get out.

Sure

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

"use another frame if you don't like it"

I mean if you don't like Ash's playstyle than find another playstyle, we have plenty of frames that can deal damage in different ways.

For example mesa is one of the best damage frames in the game yet I personally prefer to play ash Because I feel more comfortable and versatile with him. Every frame is suppose to fit someone's playstyle so if ash doesn't speak out to you then you should pick another frame.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

I love playing as Ash. He is a very effective single target take down frame. Not sure why people don' think blade storm is good. If you pair him up with a good slashing melee weapon he can tear house in groups. I feel like he is supposed to be a hit and run type character thats should prioritize the eximus units while the rest of the team gets the rest of the mobs.

[(XBOX)AngeI Winter]

I still use Ash before & after his rework 4th got changed, I use his Seeking Shuriken & smoke bomb ability in level 100+ solo high level survival all the time. Only his 4th need's to be changed. 

 

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

I mean if you don't like Ash's playstyle than find another playstyle, we have plenty of frames that can deal damage in different ways.

For example mesa is one of the best damage frames in the game yet I personally prefer to play ash Because I feel more comfortable and versatile with him. Every frame is suppose to fit someone's playstyle so if ash doesn't speak out to you then you should pick another frame.

it isn't about his playstyle being different though, it's about him just being under whelming with it. 

29 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

I love playing as Ash. He is a very effective single target take down frame. Not sure why people don' think blade storm is good. If you pair him up with a good slashing melee weapon he can tear house in groups. I feel like he is supposed to be a hit and run type character thats should prioritize the eximus units while the rest of the team gets the rest of the mobs.

you know how meaningless having single target value is in a horde game? you know what else has good single target damage, a kurbrow, would you put them on the same level as most frames? 

yes he has damage, but when most of it is wasted on a single target it is trivial. why use ash who has to pick his targets, when you can pick excal/mesa/mag/equinox and so on and cut down the this priority target and every enemy around it at nearly the same time? 

this is without mentioning literally any frame with the ability to open up enemies to finishers can mimick this piped up single target dps ash touts about, while still having the benefits of the rest of their kit. 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

why use ash who has to pick his targets, when you can pick excal/mesa/mag/equinox and so on and cut down the this priority target and every enemy around it at nearly the same time? 

You use ash because of his stealth and 8x stealth multipiers for melee so he is basically untouchable and he dishes out ridiculous damage with his passive allowing him to essentially melt groups of high lvl enemies easily , he can proc finishers instantly, he can spread two of the best high lvl viable damages in the game(finisher and slash procs) with bladestorm and with a good build 3/4 of his kit will cost basically nothing so he can constantly spam his abilities, so this allows him to always have an advantage in any combat situation against any faction on pretty much any lvl, having to pick your targets is only a problem when your fighting enemies your weapons can easily deal with but when your actually in a mission where enemies aren't just helpless strawman, the high damage output Ash's overall kit can deal will actually matter.

Imo Ash's problem comes from the fact that his viability is only shown on higher lvls where your lato can't just oneshot enemies, but most of the game is just starchart content(in short ash is overqualified for most of the content the average player does.)

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

this is without mentioning literally any frame with the ability to open up enemies to finishers can mimick this piped up single target dps ash touts about

They can mimick the damage but again what makes finishers special for ash is he can proc finishers faster than most frames since his teleport has no real cast time and it puts him in melee range of his enemy, and again he can go Invisible so he can dish this damage out on high lvls without worrying about taking damage, sure you could use ivara but ash is still faster/easier.

Edited December 5, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

I'd like to play "arbitrator-voice of reason guy" and kill this thread.  Let's review the talking points:

Old BS was too op - Oh boy was it ever.  They should have made videos with Monty Python singing the Spam song in the background.  No one used any other power other than smoke bomb.  A change needed to be made.  I used to hate having Ash's in my PUGs because of their sheer dominance through BS Spam...spam spam spam spam.

New BS is just fine- Going to have to go with "not really".  I don't think it's the horrible end all be all that the OP purports it to be, but he is correct when he states that's it's just horrible for mob control.  In order to be effective you have to be invisible, have a ton of energy on hand, a dagger with covert lethality equipped, and that's pretty much your build.  There are very few tilesets that let you wall latch and do all these things in multiplayer.  And then you need better wall latch.  Who's got room for that?  And Ash is squishy.  As Squishy as he his he needs more DPS.  He's a high DPS backstab rouge in the RPG world.  I think the OP's main gripe is the most legitimate. 

• In the time it takes to set up three marks, someone with a Tigris has already OHK'd the target.  Or if you're trying to do a medium sized mob control and playing with 3 players with Syndicate primary guns, or 2 Embers with WoF builds, or a Banshee with a soundquake mod, or a Limbo, or an OP'd Frost (I can do this all day)...the AoE spam is going to get you every time.  No other frame has to go through this (and don't roll in here with "But Ivara!" - not apples to oranges), so why does Ash?  

I've never been big on Ash, dusted him off a few weeks ago; really didn't like what I saw.  If you don't have certain augments and weapons, he somewhat useless at Tier III and even some forms of Tier II missions.  

Now, despite all other arguments pro or con, anti BS, BS is just fine; to me, here's the biggest indicator of "Ash ain't cutting it".

I don't see Ash anywhere anymore.  Not in the Void, not on the Plains, and not on Syndicate Missions...which I run PUG (I'm a solo player by nature but I run PUGs to see what other people are up to and because it makes things more interesting...I can carry most teams if need be so it's my way of helping those MR 7's and 8's out there).

Ash is no where to be seen.  Granted he's somewhat hard to come by as the base model and his Prime has been vaulted.  But he's no harder to get than Harrow or Ivara.  I'm pretty sure I picked up a full Ash set or more while farming for Harrow and you can always run Regar boss missions (Drekar Maniacs do not drop Ash parts as it turns out-Try LoR).  But he is nowheresville.  So that means the majority of the player base (like the 38k on PC as I'm typing this that are NOT on this message board) would prefer to run a different frame because he doesn't get the job done.

What the OP is stating is mostly correct.  And the opposition is correct in stating that BS shouldn't be a mapwipe power, but again the OP is true to state that it isn't very useful in the current build.  Ash used to be the "Stealth DPS" now he's just "the lower duration Loki without Ivara's mods".  Rebuilds come and go and they always end up making some frame a "balance casualty".  Ash was definitely on the losing end.  

And to truly understand the OP, just imagine if they completely reworked and nerfed your favorite frame after all the hours and cash you put in the game. 

And in the true spirit of bringing you all together I want to make a statement we can all get behind.  

Screw EA

\

Edited December 5, 2017 by (PS4)BattleCry1791

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

OPs original topic was about Ash's BS usefulness in conclave. Which if u have ever tried using BS in conclave it is useless. 

He didn't refer to Conclave, he referred to Multiplayer. As in, "outside of Solo". Which is true. That BS is completely useless in Conclave is also true. Also, notice this: BS was terrible but user friendly in Conclave, until it was nerfed (despite being the weakest offensive ult already) so right now is more detrimental to use it to the user than the enemy. This all came down on Ash Revisited update, shocking, right?

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

I love playing as Ash. He is a very effective single target take down frame. Not sure why people don' think blade storm is good.

Because A) he already had teleport for that and B) Having a single target frame in a Horde game is dumber than kubrows.

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

If you pair him up with a good slashing melee weapon he can tear house in groups. I feel like he is supposed to be a hit and run type character thats should prioritize the eximus units while the rest of the team gets the rest of the mobs.

Teleport for that. BS with it's "Ash goes on a rampage to destroy nearby enemies" and having a big target cap (50) implies it should be a mass murder weapon, but it isn't, it's just a chained automated teleport with less damage and cool looking moves (when they don't glitch the hell out)

 

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Imo Ash's problem comes from the fact that his viability is only shown on higher lvls where your lato can't just oneshot enemies, but most of the game is just starchart content(in short ash is overqualified for most of the content the average player does.)

Yes, Ash is a beast, but this thread isn't discussing Ash, it's about Blade Storm being useless. And while technically this isn't true, in practice it is due to the cost and how slow it is. You are better off using your guns, melee and Ash's other abilities over BS at virtually any time in regular gameplay, BS only function being a niche invulnerability period, which in endurance levels often just delays your invevitable demise as it dumps you in the fight without SScreen. IF the clones assisted in the killing without doubling or tripling the cost, then it would be good.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

They can mimick the damage but again what makes finishers special for ash is he can proc finishers faster than most frames since his teleport has no real cast time and it puts him in melee range of his enemy, and again he can go Invisible so he can dish this damage out on high lvls without worrying about taking damage, sure you could use ivara but ash is still faster/easier.

Depends on enemy movement pattern. If they are far apart Ash is faster because he can cover ground with Teleport. If they are packed together Ivara outkills him because of Sleep arrow. Usually you face packs of enemies as they rarely spread out in most tiles.

[Cubewano]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

You use ash because of his stealth and 8x stealth multipiers for melee so he is basically untouchable and he dishes out ridiculous damage with his passive allowing him to essentially melt groups of high lvl enemies easily , he can proc finishers instantly, he can spread two of the best high lvl viable damages in the game(finisher and slash procs) with bladestorm and with a good build 3/4 of his kit will cost basically nothing so he can constantly spam his abilities, so this allows him to always have an advantage in any combat situation against any faction on pretty much any lvl, having to pick your targets is only a problem when your fighting enemies your weapons can easily deal with but when your actually in a mission where enemies aren't just helpless strawman, the high damage output Ash's overall kit can deal will actually matter.

Imo Ash's problem comes from the fact that his viability is only shown on higher lvls where your lato can't just oneshot enemies, but most of the game is just starchart content(in short ash is overqualified for most of the content the average player does.)

They can mimick the damage but again what makes finishers special for ash is he can proc finishers faster than most frames since his teleport has no real cast time and it puts him in melee range of his enemy, and again he can go Invisible so he can dish this damage out on high lvls without worrying about taking damage, sure you could use ivara but ash is still faster/easier.

Ash isn't the only frame with stealth, and his damage doesn't matter because it's focused at single targets, kurbrows also have high single target dps, I don't think anyone would call a kurbrows on the same tier as an actual frame. Big damage only matters if you are able to hit enough targets with said damage, and many frames do that better than Ash. 

And he doesn't shine anywhere is his problem, endgame doesn't change his slow kill speed due to his single target nature, and even when you are facing 100-150 enemies a well built dps frame can still completely melt the opposing faction, and without this single target melee range limitation and reliance on not being seen(which wouldn't work at all versus corpus might i add) to stay alive. You would have to ride very far into game content (to that like 1% land very few travel to) for the damage of other dps frames to tapper off hard enough to matter, and even then that's not when you bring in ash, it's when you bring in covert equionxes. Ash has no place, early or late. 

Nobody cares who can activate their finishers a couple fractions of a second faster, the damage is still the damage, and while Ash can hop from enemy to enemy faster, these others frames literally just cc the entire room while at it which is vastly more useful. His killing is only faster as well if the enemies are spread out, which if you are familiar with this game you'd know 9/10 times would not be the case. We also should stop pretending every frame doesn't have their own form of damage mitigation, invis is not special, it's just one form of something every frame has to an extent. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Cubewano

[(XBOX)CKazz]

Ash used to be a fairly used if not go to member of my tenno pen, but since the last changes I haven't really used Ash much since rework.  Just too many better options now that his area carnage is slow and gimped.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)CKazz said:

Ash used to be a fairly used if not go to member of my tenno pen, but since the last changes I haven't really used Ash much since rework.  Just too many better options now that his area carnage is slow and gimped.

He went from my main for at least a solid year in EVERY mission to not even being considered. Even in Ash's prime the game was not over run with Ashes. You saw them but never did I get into a game and they are no where in sight for weeks and months like they are now. NO ONE uses them. Hell I can't even remember the last time I saw an Ash in ANY PUG matches. Just to clarify I do not PvP at all so no I was not talking about conclave. I tried taking my FT Ash to Plains just for fun and i kept him for maybe 5 mins before i switch off of him. FT to a single ememy and usually get bombed reguardless of stealth. Instant death. Not fun. This is why I want the old BS back. I could perch on a far away cliff/wall and assassinate targets and go back to safety while another frame was up front doing what they do best. THIS was Ash and what a good assassin should be doing. Killing the enemy and being able to live to tell no one about it while no one knows who or what did it. THAT was the Warframe assassin that I remember. Like i said the few people who cried in the forums about BS being OP or whatever caused Ash to become useless. I understand the invulnerable enemies. We have no gripes about that at all. That DID need to be changed but that was it. Nothing else needed to be changed and once that was fixed Ash would have been in a great place. Energy cost was reasonable, range was perfect, damage was balanced good at base levels, mod had great useability to keep that combo multiplier high, and it was safe for a frame that was not designed to take a hit.

Any one who suggest that Ash was not balanced the way he was prior please explain to me why?

Either you went full glass and could not spam the ability but 3 or 4 times leaving you completely drained and out of the fight.

You went full efficency and it was hard to kill on high level areas which required you to use some other abilities.

Full duration and just invis and spam mele which I dub Loki/Ash.

JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FRAME.

Now when you added in things like Steel Charge sure the damage goes up but then you lack energy regen so that is balanced on it's own by use.

"Well if you have a trinity" then you have another player supporting ALL players and not just Ash so that is not an argument worth talking about.

The frame alone was well balance and probably the best balanced frame in the game pre nerf. 

Now like I said in the beginning, he is unplayable/unusable in multiplayer.

All I am asking for is the single button activation with a standardized number of targets and energy on cast. If I hit 1 enemy then I made a bad choice and I should be punished for my input. The bad choice should not be taking Ash in the first place to kill hordes of enemies.

[(XBOX)CKazz]

Yeah it's really sad, he was one of my fave stylistically and there were tankier frames and easier frames and aoe frames that did/do things Ash never could.  And after recently buying Gara for something different in the Defense bucket she's destined to be nerfed outclassed by Frost/Frost Prime and I already have those, I wanted what Gara offered in a more limited but powerful way.  Feeling the bait and switch there and I'm not happy.

Edited December 6, 2017 by (XB1)CKazz