Grineer Commander Stunlock - You're LITERALLY TROLLING YOUR OWN PLAYERS

[BlackCoMerc]

Its not challenging. Challenging implies Counter Play.

Its not Difficulty. Difficulty is a thing you overcome by practice and improvement.

The only thing left is that someone at DE decided it was ok to use game mechanics to literally troll their own player base. So, they added Switch Teleport to the Grineer Commander. And when that failed to frustrate players sufficiently to make them want to outright buy anything locked behind Grineer events with Plat immediately, they tacked on the Switch Teleport in order to ensure that Alert, Event and Syndicate missions containing Grineer Commanders were some of the least fun, most frustrating experiences available in modern gaming. 

Its not cute. Its not "an entertaining change up from the usual enemy fare." It does not challenge the player to get better, as Being Invisible for the duration of the mission by way of player input isnt an available skill in Warframe. Its simply a terrible design decision that should never have passed QA. And now the joke has gone on long enough, the frustration with it is real...and the videos highlighting it...

DE talks alot about Warframe's success. About how publishers wouldnt touch it and it succeeded anyway, despite a world filled with AAA games. But you arent growing the player base. You arent retaining a lot of those who used to play. We know it. You know it. And decisions like the Grineer Commander - decisions made simply to frustrate your players - are a big reason WHY you arent growing your base or retaining players. 

Enemy Design isnt about asking "How can I beat my players?" Enemy Design is about asking "How can I challenge my players in unique, creative ways, while ensuring that intelligent decisions made regarding loadout, combined with skilled play, are rewarded with unique methods for overcoming the challenges I introduce?" Well designed games ask and answer the second question. Warframe mostly focuses on the first. 

Someone within DE has it in their heads that the role of enemies in games must, at all times, be "How do I Defeat - and I mean outright CRUSH - players at any cost?" Which, in a game with players this powerful, almost inevitably devolves into some fun killing, player input restricting gimmick unworthy of a game of this caliber. And yet its kept anyway, left there to frustrate, irritate and troll players. 

But what you dont realize, DE, is that these decisions - Nullifiers, Commander Teleport/Stunlock, the stubborn refusal of Universal Vacuum, Fish Oil and Wait Walls on Skywing Launchers, 24 hour cooldowns and nigh monocolor Mastery Tests - none of these decisions exists in a vacuum. They are all cumulative. And while any ONE of them drags the overall game down a little...combined, in one game, they sort of...turn the game into a laughing stock of bad decisions. 

I know. That sounds harsh. And I honestly dont mean it to. But its true. Any ONE of the decisions listed about is bad. They all add nothing but frustration, while bringing nothing to the game play, and doing nothing to enhance player enjoyment or the player experience. But combined? In one game? Its like straws on the camel's back, and we all know where that leads.

So show some good will. Patch out Switch Teleport. Give the Commander the same Aura that the floating speakers have, to buff Grineer, in the short term. In the long term, add the Flare from the Plains that calls in reinforcements, and make it work in normal missions, too. He's a Commander. Having Loki's ability not only makes him unfair and annoying...it actually detracts from your world building because it makes absolutely zero logical sense that this power should appear anywhere BUT Loki.

Edited December 19, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[Chipputer]

I'm with you about the Commanders but I don't see why you need to take jabs at the company, itself.

[mrfluffydeath]

I would be fine with the Switch Teleport, if it relied on the players natural WTF reaction of being ripped through and supplanted in space, with the corresponding, "Where am I now, and where was I just a moment ago" but they fact they added the stupid 1-2 second confusion animation is infuriating.

[GinKenshin]

the enemy is such a rare encounter that this issue isn't really that big to me. you'll say "when you do face him this will be annoying" but still. paying taxes is annoying but that's a rare thing (once in a month is rare I guess) XD 

I'm all up for them removing the animation, but there's really no 'DO IT RIGHT NOW OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL BLOW' need for it.

[Emolition]

It might be the frames I play but a commander never got me killed or in any real danger. It just moves me on the map and 1 second later I'm back fighting. Nothing worse then a trolling loki exept loki could spam it on you while the commander normaly just do it ones before they die.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

the enemy is such a rare encounter that this issue isn't really that big to me. you'll say "when you do face him this will be annoying" but still. paying taxes is annoying but that's a rare thing (once in a month is rare I guess) XD 

I'm all up for them removing the animation, but there's really no 'DO IT RIGHT NOW OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL BLOW' need for it.

Rare encounter? I saw no fewer than 5 of them in one Exterminate mission...and at least 2 more in the very next mission. Events and Alerts crawl with them...as does Saturn and the middle of the Star Map now. 

For a while there, yes, they did virtually disappear. And I went quiet on the matter as a result. But of late, they are back, in a BIG, obtrusive, "Bad Game Design Found Here" flashing sign sort of way.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, Emolition said:

It might be the frames I play but a commander never got me killed or in any real danger. It just moves me on the map and 1 second later I'm back fighting. Nothing worse then a trolling loki exept loki could spam it on you while the commander normaly just do it ones before they die.

But thats just it: It doesnt add challenge. It doesnt add anything at all. In fact, when players do it, its READILY DEFINED and COMMONLY ACCEPTED as Trolling.

Yet, mysteriously...its ok for enemies to do it? With zero counter play on offer? That's...not really reasonable...

[DiabolusUrsus]

I don't get the "it's not that big of a problem" posters. Like, you can acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't want it fixed...?

I would understand if the point were "actually, it's a good thing because xyz," even if I disagreed, but you're disagreeing because of different priorities? Listing workarounds isn't really relevant either. People don't want to play as Rhino/Wukong/Inaros/Nidus all the time just to lessen the impact of a single enemy.

Hell, if this required extensive work and hours upon hours of time to fix the whole "meh, not important" perspective would actually make sense... But all it needs is the removal of the stupid stun animation as an interim band-aid.

The teleport actually STARTED OUT THAT WAY, and they ADDED the animation later! Just take it back out!

[djternan]

50 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

"Bad design is ok as long as you only encounter it sometimes"

 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

SNIP

LOL, yeah I remember the first time it happened to me. I didn't even know what was happening until someone told me about the new unit.

But honestly I have never experience one bad consequence of being switched teleported except for the disorientation.

Seriously it's not that bad, it doesn't put you in a disadvantage in any respect. And it did add a little unexpected surprise in regular combat, and I do enjoy the break in the monotony.

[nickelshark]

They need to change. They should've been changed years ago. They are the most un-fun enemy in the game imo. At low to medium levels they are annoying, adding nothing. At high levels they can get you killed with you being able to do absolutely nothing about it.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, nickelshark said:

They need to change. They should've been changed years ago. They are the most un-fun enemy in the game imo. At low to medium levels they are annoying, adding nothing. At high levels they can get you killed with you being able to do absolutely nothing about it.

Exactly this. 

Between these guys, the Rollers, aimbot grappling hooks and the constant slash procs from 100% accuracy, Rhino Prime has become my go-to for Grineer missions, for the most part. He is a Tedium Remover. And that's what missions and the lack of balance in Warframe have come to: Which loadout removes the most tedium from the experience. 

Its a shame. There is so much potential here, especially given the fantastic movement and cool, agile game play...but its all mired in the increasingly unstable house of cards created by the utter lack of will to balance the game. 

[ExplosiveBolts]

7 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Its not cute.

Yes it is.

He also has the power to break people's will, and make them write rants on the forums. Truly the most powerful unit in the game.

[_Vortus_]

Commanders, Nullifiers, Corpus Skater Boys and Girls, I like them.    They are different and are, to me, an interesting twist.   Enemies that are actually legitimate threats are always welcome.   We develop better and better ways to kill them.   Makes sense they are in turn doing the same against us. 

Wait wall on Wing Launchers?    After your initial build, its 50 every 30m.    If you are using more than 50 Wing Launchers in 30m you are doing something very wrong, or intentionally wasting them.

Occasional fishing of Mortis and Khut's will give you plenty of Fish Oil.

And Mastery Tests monchrome coloring, its just different, neither bad nor good to me.   The 24 hour cool down is the price of failure.   When I was a kid and failed my first attempt at my drivers license.   Had to wait to take it again.    Couldn't just get back in line and give it another go.   No different.

Vacuum I think they should just add it, along with a toggle to shut it off for players that do not want it.

 

 

[Mudfam]

A few days ago I did a Kuva flood and an abnormally high numer of these spawned, they spent pretty much the entirety of the siphon part of mission making my nova go "huh, what's going on, I am brainded" across various parts of the room, I couldn't even recover from the animation it before the next one would troll me. They just took turns doing this, again and again and again and again and...

What bothers me is that we're forced into this utterly ridiculous helpless state when we already have to deal with human reaction times, whereas I regularly get one shot the very same frame I come out of a womhole in high level missions because the aimbot AI takes 0 time to register our presence, aim and kill.

I'm all for difficulty, but this isn't remotely fair and there's absolutely nothing you can do to counter it.

[Autongnosis]

I agree that they should really be changed, but for different reasons. I mean, they're annoying but not game breaking per se. The problem is they make absolutely zero sense. 

All units with "special" skills maoe sense. Techs spawn support drones, Bursa ruin your day of mindless massacring in a variety of ways, nullifiers require you to either get in close and personal or aim well, grineer heavy units stomp you if you get too close, the scorpions grapple you etc...

But the Commander uses Switch Teleport. Wat. How does that reinforce in any way the unit. It's a Commander ffs. It should buff allies. Not randomly switch with a Tenno that then proceeds to just spank everything wherever he's sent to and then kills the commander. 

He should do stuff like buffing famage or heal over time or reduce damage received etc, not use Loki's skill... 

 

Ah also, the mechanical problem is not the stagger per se but the fact that there can be multiple commanders taking turns and stunlocking you. That's really really rare but when it happens it's really S#&$ty because it has no counter whatsoever. 

[nickelshark]

30 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Commanders, Nullifiers, Corpus Skater Boys and Girls, I like them.    They are different and are, to me, an interesting twist.   Enemies that are actually legitimate threats are always welcome.   We develop better and better ways to kill them.   Makes sense they are in turn doing the same against us. 

Wait wall on Wing Launchers?    After your initial build, its 50 every 30m.    If you are using more than 50 Wing Launchers in 30m you are doing something very wrong, or intentionally wasting them.

Occasional fishing of Mortis and Khut's will give you plenty of Fish Oil.

And Mastery Tests monchrome coloring, its just different, neither bad nor good to me.   The 24 hour cool down is the price of failure.   When I was a kid and failed my first attempt at my drivers license.   Had to wait to take it again.    Couldn't just get back in line and give it another go.   No different.

Vacuum I think they should just add it, along with a toggle to shut it off for players that do not want it.

 

 

I wouldn't even group commanders with those enemies. They can be countered and their abilities disabled. Commanders on the other hand offer no such thing. If you are within their line of sight, you are going to lose complete control of your character for 2ish seconds. How can that be challenging when you have zero chance to counter or recover from a potentially bad situation? Flameblades are far more interesting and a better enemy. Teleporting around and behind you, potentially catching you off guard,but still giving you a fair chance to react.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, nickelshark said:

I wouldn't even group commanders with those enemies. They can be countered and their abilities disabled. Commanders on the other hand offer no such thing. If you are within their line of sight, you are going to lose complete control of your character for 2ish seconds. How can that be challenging when you have zero chance to counter or recover from a potentially bad situation? Flameblades are far more interesting and a better enemy. Teleporting around and behind you, potentially catching you off guard,but still giving you a fair chance to react.

And this is exactly the problem.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

the enemy is such a rare encounter that this issue isn't really that big to me. you'll say "when you do face him this will be annoying" but still. paying taxes is annoying but that's a rare thing (once in a month is rare I guess) XD 

I'm all up for them removing the animation, but there's really no 'DO IT RIGHT NOW OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL BLOW' need for it.

- The hull is broken, Captain!
- We haven't drowned yet, so it's fine!

 No, dude, seriously. Problems like this one pile up, if you keep saying "Ah, it's not the end of the world!". At some point everything will be so broken, that you don't even know where to start.

Edited December 19, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[_Vortus_]

2 hours ago, nickelshark said:

I wouldn't even group commanders with those enemies. They can be countered and their abilities disabled. Commanders on the other hand offer no such thing. If you are within their line of sight, you are going to lose complete control of your character for 2ish seconds. How can that be challenging when you have zero chance to counter or recover from a potentially bad situation? Flameblades are far more interesting and a better enemy. Teleporting around and behind you, potentially catching you off guard,but still giving you a fair chance to react.

They are affected by our loadouts powers and weapons just like any other unit.   And if you fail to do so before they can use their own power on you, that 2 sec stun lock is the price of failure.    Being put into a bad situation and having to recover is indeed a challenge.   That is their power, that is their single advantage over us.    Which, odds are still tilted pretty heavily in our favor.

[Teljaxx]

I would be much more accepting of enemies that can swap teleport you if it weren't for two things: The stupid confusion animation, and the fact that they are almost perfectly, 100% uncounterable, uninterruptable, and unavoidable.

Having them do things like, while Mprimed and cold proc'd face down on the ground, about to be stabbed in the back with a ground finisher, be able to swap teleport me like half a foot and interrupt my attack, or having three of them bounce you around the room before you even knew they were there because their perception goes beyond line-of-sight, is really, really dumb. It does nothing but aggravate players. It does not add any meaningful challenge or clever counter play options. It just frustrates you for no reason.

If they had to do something obvious and avoidable to actually catch you with the teleport, then it would be much better. Like if they tossed out a special latcher or energy ball or something, and if it touched you, you would have a second or two to shake it off or get teleported. This would add actual counter play to them, which is an important part of designing powerful enemies properly. Though the actual effect of being teleported would still be more of an annoyance than any kind of meaningful threat.

I would rather have the COMMANDERS actually GIVE COMMANDS. Like if they could give all other nearby troops short buffs based on their orders. Like telling them to focus fire one target with a small accuracy buff, or all run for cover with a small defense buff. Or at the very least, if simply having them nearby would buff other Grineer a bit. Then they would actually serve a purpose beyond "HUR HUR, now you're over there and I'm over here! LOL!".

[nickelshark]

33 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

They are affected by our loadouts powers and weapons just like any other unit.   And if you fail to do so before they can use their own power on you, that 2 sec stun lock is the price of failure.    Being put into a bad situation and having to recover is indeed a challenge.   That is their power, that is their single advantage over us.    Which, odds are still tilted pretty heavily in our favor.

There is no specific load-out that can avoid this. If you are telling me that it is possible to avoid these sons of guns in a crowd of grineer then I would love to have you show me. How does one expect to recover from being surrounded by level 50+ enemies for 2 seconds with no way to escape? Play a super tank frame like chroma or rhino? If so that is a horrible solution as that pretty much limits player choice and viability for frames that are built like tissue paper.

[DiabolusUrsus]

10 minutes ago, nickelshark said:

There is no specific load-out that can avoid this. If you are telling me that it is possible to avoid these sons of guns in a crowd of grineer then I would love to have you show me. How does one expect to recover from being surrounded by level 50+ enemies for 2 seconds with no way to escape? Play a super tank frame like chroma or rhino? If so that is a horrible solution as that pretty much limits player choice and viability for frames that are built like tissue paper.

Obviously, you should only ever play Permacloaki or Ivara. /s

[BL4CKN0ISE]

Not the biggest deal, but it can be annoying. I got switch teleported 3 times back to back with never a chance to recover. It just doesn't happen very often, but I still don't understand why DE puts stuff like that into the game. I remember thinking nullifiers were bad, but then I ran into a Scrambus and you don't even see those guys coming. Same with Commanders. Make things as hard as you want, but I just like stuff to feel fair so you can consistently counter if you play well. Some stuff just comes out of nowhere and you're left defenseless and it just feels unbalanced. 

[_Vortus_]

3 hours ago, nickelshark said:

There is no specific load-out that can avoid this. If you are telling me that it is possible to avoid these sons of guns in a crowd of grineer then I would love to have you show me. How does one expect to recover from being surrounded by level 50+ enemies for 2 seconds with no way to escape? Play a super tank frame like chroma or rhino? If so that is a horrible solution as that pretty much limits player choice and viability for frames that are built like tissue paper.

If you are allowing groups of 50+ enemy units to exist in your vicinity, that in itself is an issue.    But, as to non tanky loadouts, and it doesn't even have to be specific.   Loadout option one.  We can go the invisibility route.   Pick them off without never even knowing what hit them.  Melee, Sniper, AoE, it simply doesn't matter.   Loadout option two.   Mass CC.   Be it frames or powers, what is under your control is no longer a threat or at least a minimal one.  Kill them at your leisure.    Loadout option three.   Speed Killing.   Wipe out sections so fast it simple doesn't matter what type of enemy it is.   Spin to win etc.   I can go on.    Many more options for avoiding this happening.   But, if you are unlucky, and if it does happen, and you are teleported into a mass of enemies you shouldn't have allowed to exist to begin with it, then you get to enjoy the challenge of fighting for your life.