ATTENTION [DE]

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

@GreyEnneract do you have anything to add to the thread besides taking a random shot at me? Guess not. 

I stand by what I said. I think Brozime is an idiot. I think the upcoming change is overall good. 

I think the question was whether it's fine to disagree with another's opinions without attacking the person directly.

[Syln]

il y a 19 minutes, robbybe01234 a dit :

So what is the line for when threads become adverts for youtubers?

Just below the title of this thread ... i guess it has been crossed then :3

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Great, now because of your forum title I’ll have that dumb mesothelioma ad in my head all day.

 

Thanks. For that.

Friggin’ titles...

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

ignore

Edited December 21, 2017 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[Mudfam]

7 hours ago, Foefaller said:

Now see, I Stongly disagree with that sentiment, not only because I get along fine in Floods and Sortie 3's without stacking bleeds, but because it is used all to often to excuse things I that consider poor game design (like 4x CP)

I can't make any sense whatsoever of what you're saying here. How do slash procs excuse 4x CPs? They are an alternative to that. This really makes absolutely no sense.

Presumably if you're getting by without stacking bleed procs then you're doing it by stacking corrosive procs instead. What's the difference here exactly?

Is your idea of balance that only weapons capable of rapidly stacking corrosive procs should be viable? You can't possibly be suggesting that shouldn't work either. A level 100 heavy has literally millions of EHP, even a top top tier rivened up weapon capable of doing a massive 100k DPS would take half a minute and your entire ammo reserves to chew through a single enemy, that comes in hordes and can one shot many of our frames.

We absolutely need ways around this completely absurd armour scaling, and preferably more than just a couple which only apply to handful of weapons. This situation should not exist, but while it does bleed procs are one of the very few essential mechanics at our disposal.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

I wouldn’t bring up Brozime on the forums. He may have some fans, but just as many haters. He’s a very polarizing personality.

Personally I can’t stand him. I’ll admit he can bring up some rather good points, but he also more frequently fails to understand why something is the way it is.

I remember when Saryn got a rework and everyone kept saying she’s useless. He jumped on this bandwagon by comparing Excalibur amd Saryn. Excalibur. And. Saryn. And concluded that because Excalibur could kill a high level heavy gunner quicker than Saryn that meant she sucked and that the rework was a failure.

Now, of course, we know differently. Saryn can be a volatile caster as well as a terrifying Melee frame.

Brozime just has a tendency to jump on the negativity train without doing more research than the bare minimum to make his videos and get his views. This is why I prefer Tactical Potato for his general neutrality to certain aspects of WF as well as builds that everyone may not use. Except for one of his most recent videos. But that was funny.

[Arniox]

On 12/20/2017 at 1:14 PM, -N7-Leonhart said:

I can't stand Brozime's guts because he is always too subjective and only talks from limited point of view and situations.

Agreed. As soon as I saw Brozime's name, I was going to just leave this post...

[Foefaller]

4 hours ago, Mudfam said:

I can't make any sense whatsoever of what you're saying here. How do slash procs excuse 4x CPs? They are an alternative to that. This really makes absolutely no sense.

Presumably if you're getting by without stacking bleed procs then you're doing it by stacking corrosive procs instead. What's the difference here exactly?

Is your idea of balance that only weapons capable of rapidly stacking corrosive procs should be viable? You can't possibly be suggesting that shouldn't work either. A level 100 heavy has literally millions of EHP, even a top top tier rivened up weapon capable of doing a massive 100k DPS would take half a minute and your entire ammo reserves to chew through a single enemy, that comes in hordes and can one shot many of our frames.

We absolutely need ways around this completely absurd armour scaling, and preferably more than just a couple which only apply to handful of weapons. This situation should not exist, but while it does bleed procs are one of the very few essential mechanics at our disposal.

I disagree with the idea that the armor scaling makes any one thing "required."

Mainly because I have found many ways that I can defeat level 100 enemies that don't "require" slash procs or even CP/Corrosive. You haven't lived until you've tried Savage Banshee or Lethal Teleport Ash with a Jat Kittag and Vulcan Blitz, or blasted Bombards entranced by the base line of Under Pressure with an Amped Opticor as Octavia. Heck, I'm pretty sure the right Mag build with the Crush or Magnetize augment could do it without slash or Corrosive too; early Simulacrum testing has been rocky, but promising.

One of the things I love about Warframe is that the vast arsenal of frames and weapons means there are many ways to approach an engagement, all you need is good knowledge of the game and a little creativity. Some are absolutely better than others, like slash procs, but to say those things are "required" always irks me, because IMO it represents a stubborn refusal to venture out of your comfort zone, and suggests that every other approach is fundamentally flawed, rather than just different and sometimes more challenging in a way another player might find enjoyable.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Foefaller

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

Anyone who sees this as anything but a nerf to slash damage is wrong. Even if your slash weapon has 80% of its base damage in slash, you're losing damage still. That extra 20% is no longer being calculated into the proc. This is a massive nerf to many weapons, as Brozime said (and I'm not a fan of him but he's got a point.)

[Mudfam]

5 hours ago, Foefaller said:

I disagree with the idea that the armor scaling makes any one thing "required."

Mainly because I have found many ways that I can defeat level 100 enemies that don't "require" slash procs or even CP/Corrosive. You haven't lived until you've tried Savage Banshee or Lethal Teleport Ash with a Jat Kittag and Vulcan Blitz, or blasted Bombards entranced by the base line of Under Pressure with an Amped Opticor as Octavia. Heck, I'm pretty sure the right Mag build with the Crush or Magnetize augment could do it without slash or Corrosive too; early Simulacrum testing has been rocky, but promising.

One of the things I love about Warframe is that the vast arsenal of frames and weapons means there are many ways to approach an engagement, all you need is good knowledge of the game and a little creativity. Some are absolutely better than others, like slash procs, but to say those things are "required" always irks me, because IMO it represents a stubborn refusal to venture out of your comfort zone, and suggests that every other approach is fundamentally flawed, rather than just different and sometimes more challenging in a way another player might find enjoyable.

I'm one of those people who have probably played this game too much and for too long, I've done everything there is to do in every way you can possibly do it. Indeed warframe's rich variety of possible builds and strategies is part of what kept me going this long, though ultimately it's more because I enjoy the core gameplay. While I've certainly enjoyed messing around with all these builds, there's not that many that have stuck with me as having the right mix of fun and effectiveness, where I don't feel like I'm just doing the same thing again and again.

Ultimately there are not that many frames that really appeal to me, and having a wide variety of effective weapons at my disposal is hugely important to me. When you begin to look at weapons that synergise well with particular frames and abilities the list tends to get pretty small. When something like hunter munitions comes along and opens up new builds, brings a mechanically different weapon that I wouldn't normally use up to a level where it's functional it's a good day, when a weapon that already struggles is written off completely it's a bad day.

This game has a mix of newer players that are still excited to explore it, and somewhat jaded veterans with years of experience who know the game inside out and become annoyed at the limitations rather than excited at the possibilities. We are still constantly looking for new niches, unexpected ways to make something that isn't already a go-to solution work, but are too often met with disappointment. I have everything, I've formaed everything to death, I've now even invested in top rivens in everything where I saw potential, and my huge arsenal seems too small with too many write-offs. There is a distinct lack of balance in this game, and bleed procs are one the strongest things we have, but also one of those few equalisers that allow more weapons to still be useful at higher levels. The problem is the proposed changes increase this imbalance rather than attempt to solve it as promised.

[Soulden]

hmmm...Good discussion, but to be honest.

did everyone missed the "Our more observant theorycrafters may see a flaw in the examples given above" ? Is right under Covering our bases. 

Was about to call this thread a rep bait, until I noticed Devs thread is closed.

Sorry about the non-constructive post and go on.

[ThorienKELL]

First of all let us clear up few facts here:

Brozime has some tendency to panic and to be subjective - that is true, but he is one of most knowledgeable and most proficient warfame youtubers in every aspect. Only a fool would underestimate his warnings.

Secondly - from what we know there IS a material to be concerned here. DE has a record of very much be a hit or miss on ther rebalancing attempts, and this one is huge. If they miss this one, we're all .... - sc....ed. 

Thirdly I don't think we should panic just yet. We clearly don't know all, there will be testing and rebalancing. We still have a chance to pull this off right.

Lastly I don't think that a some nerf to slash damage would be the end of the world. If everything else would be done right.

And yes, rebalancing damage types WITHOUT rebalancing armor and way enemies receive damage would be folly. 

Please, DE, for the love of the God, be very careful with this. 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by ThorienKELL

[Foefaller]

9 hours ago, Mudfam said:

I'm one of those people who have probably played this game too much and for too long, I've done everything there is to do in every way you can possibly do it. Indeed warframe's rich variety of possible builds and strategies is part of what kept me going this long, though ultimately it's more because I enjoy the core gameplay. While I've certainly enjoyed messing around with all these builds, there's not that many that have stuck with me as having the right mix of fun and effectiveness, where I don't feel like I'm just doing the same thing again and again.

Ultimately there are not that many frames that really appeal to me, and having a wide variety of effective weapons at my disposal is hugely important to me. When you begin to look at weapons that synergise well with particular frames and abilities the list tends to get pretty small. When something like hunter munitions comes along and opens up new builds, brings a mechanically different weapon that I wouldn't normally use up to a level where it's functional it's a good day, when a weapon that already struggles is written off completely it's a bad day.

This game has a mix of newer players that are still excited to explore it, and somewhat jaded veterans with years of experience who know the game inside out and become annoyed at the limitations rather than excited at the possibilities. We are still constantly looking for new niches, unexpected ways to make something that isn't already a go-to solution work, but are too often met with disappointment. I have everything, I've formaed everything to death, I've now even invested in top rivens in everything where I saw potential, and my huge arsenal seems too small with too many write-offs. There is a distinct lack of balance in this game, and bleed procs are one the strongest things we have, but also one of those few equalisers that allow more weapons to still be useful at higher levels. The problem is the proposed changes increase this imbalance rather than attempt to solve it as promised.

Oh no, I'm not disagreeing that the changes as we know them will reduce the number of weapons people use, both because the Impact/Puncture changes are not enough and the Slash change nerfs a lot of weapon that, even before Hunter Munitions, relied on slash procs. I've been playing since Zephyr was new, I'm well aware of what works well, what works with some effort, and what barely works at all.

I just have a pet peeve when people say the armor scaling makes anything "required," because it is simply not true. It makes certain builds stronger than others, it massively increases TTK in relation to the rest of the game withiut those builds and yes, it causes some things to fail hard to the point of worthlessness (unless you're using something truly broken, like 4xCP) But it's by no means to the point that strategies that entirely ignore armor are required. At least, not at the level that anyone sees outside of hour-long survivals.

[phoenix1992]

Look, let me be honest.

I dislike fear mongering.
I dislike clickbaiting.
I dislike self imposed theory crafters and half baked meta assumptions.

But I would dislike even more if the IPS conversations die due to the "spoilers' and the new room topics.

[-Temp0-]

В 20.12.2017 в 07:14, -N7-Leonhart сказал:

I can't stand Brozime's guts because he is always too subjective and only talks from limited point of view and situations. I do believe myself that DE moves in the right direction with the procs

Idk how it can move "in the right direction" when you literally nerf the only useful physical type and make other 2 do something uterely useless especially when DE stated they "don't want to nerf slash" but currently until they reconsidered and delayed it they would nerf every and each of 3 types making physical damage effects/procs useless.

Also making impact ragdoll mobs out of control is so.freaking.bad I can't even. It is NOT useful, it's the opposite of it and they present is as something you would want to do not understanding in the slightest how players think or what they want.

Цитата

All I got from that is that it's basically nerfing hunters munitions because weapons without slash won't proc slash dmg, as it should be? why would weapons with 0 slash proc slash?

WHY THE HECK YOU WOULD CREATE A MOD THAT MAKES WEAPONS WITHOUT SLASH PROCK SLASH? And nerf it 2 weeks later.

Also it's literally only one problem out of dozens with this "rework".

Edited December 22, 2017 by -Temp0-

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

WHY THE HECK YOU WOULD CREATE A MOD THAT MAKES WEAPONS WITHOUT SLASH PROCK SLASH? And nerf it 2 weeks later.

Also it's literally only one problem out of dozens with this "rework".

Maybe the same reason why the Acolyte modes were so defining for the melee meta when they originally came out. 
DE did not even come close to testing all of the possible abuses and loopholes with them. 
(Also the power creep on Body count is hilarious)

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

DE did not even come close to testing all of the possible abuses and loopholes with them. 

You literally made weapons without slash do slash as the mod intended them to do - how the heck it "abuses" something? Holy crp this "community", always delivers.

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

You literally made weapons without slash do slash as the mod intended them to do - how the heck it "abuses" something? Holy crp this "community", always delivers.

And you literally took things out of context (again). Holy crp, you should chase a political carrier.

DE have not tested the full swing if the implications with all weapons and all mods, because they simply lack the manpower to do it (especially with riven variants).

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

DE have not tested the full swing if the implications with all weapons and all mods

Well maybe they should. Because otherwise, guess what - it does not look professional in the slightest. Stop serving half ***, half finished stuff only to nerf it two days later, you have so many people out there like not even paid testers if you don't want to hire professionals and pay them but partners and youtubers/streamers, guides of the lotus and design council that would test anything you want in a week for you without payment even.

Not to mention, you could just easily make it so weapons would have any kind of physical damage (for example) in order to get the effect, in one form or another (either innate physical damage or via mods).

And like I said, that's just one nerf of slash damage not even the biggest one while they said they won't touch slash and won't make it less useful but will rework/buf otehr 2 instead. Failed in everything so far. At least unlike Gara's case this madness is not final.

Edited December 22, 2017 by -Temp0-

[BornWithTeeth]

8 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

And you literally took things out of context (again). Holy crp, you should chase a political carrier.

DE have not tested the full swing if the implications with all weapons and all mods, because they simply lack the manpower to do it (especially with riven variants).

phoenix, that's actually a little disingenuous. The fact that Hunter Munitions can make high damage Crit weapons force-proc Slash is not an unintended consequence. It is literally what that mod does. That is what it's for.

 

That's like saying that DE did not expect people to use Serration to make rifles do lots of damage.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

phoenix, that's actually a little disingenuous. The fact that Hunter Munitions can make high damage Crit weapons force-proc Slash is not an unintended consequence. It is literally what that mod does. That is what it's for.

 

That's like saying that DE did not expect people to use Serration to make rifles do lots of damage.

They did not expect for Hunter munitions to be that viable with weapons that are not usually perceived as crit based and were originally "gimmicky".
Rivens, especially those with high dispo threw a big wrench into that.

 

*Trow a Hunter munition on Ignis, because why the *clem not*

[IggySnow]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:32 PM, Sajochi said:

I see players throwing this around like it's a fact. Slash will still do the same thing it does. Puncture and Impact are being brought up to par. Weapons focused for certain IPS will have better results. 

What is concerning is the effects Puncture and Impact will have, and what the new proc distribution will entail. So far it looks like weapons with heavy IPS leaning in one area will benefit the most. 

So no, slash is not getting nerfed. Get your facts straight.

im sorry what??? Slash is 100% getting nerfed if the proposed changes go through.

Slash will go from scaling off of all the weapons damage to scaling off of just a weapons slash damage.

The literal definition of a nerf is when somethings power or viability is lessened, which is exactly hat is happening to slash.

 

I dont even care that much if slash gets nerfed like they are proposing but the changes are a nerf and there is no arguing that it is not.

[Scoobeus]

My god, all those MR 5 people who haven't even cleared the starchart who think DE's proposed changes are anything but absolute garbage.

Impact and Puncture are and will stay useless. Utterly useless. You don't want stunned or ragdolled enemies, you want dead enemies. This may not have an impact on your little mercury adventures but later on it will.

Slash is and will remain the only viable damage type of these three. And they are still going to utterly nerf it and at the same time make good slash weapons even more mandatory than they are now. Yes, everything is pretty much viable when clearing the starchart, but later on armor scaling will give you the middle finger if you try to use anything other than either corrosive, slash or 3-4x stacked CP auras.

This isn't clickbaiting or fear mongering, this is KNOWING that when DE revisited a mechanic, they will not revisit it for years to come.

They will not revsisit volt again, they will not change gara again. Those frames are done for. DE will move to the next subject.

Archwing, anyone? Raids? It got left in the dust.

We can cry as much as we want about gara, volt or archwing or raids. DE won't care. It's not on their list any more. They have to go forward, never look back. This has always been their practice.

All we have is ONE, I repeat ONE revisit of mechanics. If they don't get that right then prepare for a meta of even less top tier weapons than we do have now.

SO we have to make ourselves heard NOW. It will be all too late after the update rolls out. Guys like him are who we need. They can be heard by DE, they have a voice.

I for one will not be happy to be pidgeonholed into using the same 5 weapons on every content past level 60 and you guys won't either after you reach this content.