ATTENTION [DE]

[Azullion1]

Please watch this video from Brozime. Thank you.

 

 

[-N7-Leonhart]

I can't stand Brozime's guts because he is always too subjective and only talks from limited point of view and situations. I do believe myself that DE moves in the right direction with the procs.

The dominant proc on the weapon should do more, and the less dominant proc should do less, that is so very correct, otherwise, there is no point in using some weapons over the others, that would have let's say 33% of each proc.

[Sajochi]

 My personal feedback on Brozime:

I think he's an idiot. Glad DE doesn't follow his idea of balance. His views are very narrow and his frequent habit of jumping the gun tends to bite him later. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Sajochi

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

Regardless how it turns out it is a fact as of right now DE plans to Nerf Slash we directly ask not to do this

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

Regardless how it turns out it is a fact as of right now DE plans to Nerf Slash we directly ask not to do this

I see players throwing this around like it's a fact. Slash will still do the same thing it does. Puncture and Impact are being brought up to par. Weapons focused for certain IPS will have better results. 

What is concerning is the effects Puncture and Impact will have, and what the new proc distribution will entail. So far it looks like weapons with heavy IPS leaning in one area will benefit the most. 

So no, slash is not getting nerfed. Get your facts straight.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

Sajochi if you hear the same story from four respected, knowledgeable experienced people it has to be true.who's to say its wrong you? A random person?

[Sajochi]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

Sajochi if you hear the same story from four respected, knowledgeable experienced people it has to be true.who's to say its wrong you? A random person?

The first sentence is subjective. If you base your opinion on  individuals who have proven to be a little to reactionary, maybe it's time to form your own. But I'm done with this. Facts are facts, opinions are opinions. Don't get them confused. Later. 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

I don't get the issue. This might reduce overall  slash damage, but unless I'm mistaken you can put on multiple status procs on a mob. He's talking like any hit will ONLY proc one time and after that no other proc can happen. From my interpretation of the rule; you can slash proc on one hit but the next hit could proc for puncture and while the slash proc is still going on, the mob now had a added damage reduction. And if the next hit procs impact then you can stagger them as well. So if you have high status weapons, even with segmented proc damage, would the proc effects not layer on each other? Wouldn't this result in a mob who still takes massive damage over time, has reduced damage output against you, and more than likely will be staggered as well(I think he is overblowing the ragdoll issue)?

 

[Volinus7]

So you have to spend more time to achieve the same result because dmg is smaller and ragdolling makes things stuck in unreachable places, Warframe player retention is secretly improved lol. 

This minor one dimension offset is also intentionally used to promote khora (oh what a coincidence, there's an IPS swapping warframe lying around close to an IPS update). 

Warframe these days is kinda similar to those character collecting games like Defender of Texel, you guys should prepare for the paragon system lol. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Volinus7

[Mudfam]

I can only imagine that if you support these changes you didn't understand what they entail.

Slash proc damage would scale off only the slash portion of your weapon's damage, not the combined base damage. This means that weapons that currently dominate the meta by being mostly slash based and proccing slash more often are relatively even stronger, by also doing proportionally more damage per proc. Meanwhile weapons with lower slash in their IPS distribution suffer that same penalty on the damage as well as the proc frequency, making them relatively much weaker still.

It also suggests that forced slash procs from various melee stance combos or hunter munitions become useless on weapons that don't have very high (or any) slash. This is something that brought some much needed balance to those weapons, especially where armour is concerned.

DE tells us "Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!" But while Khora can do this, we cannot control the IPS distribution on our weapons, the mods that affect IPS scale off those base stats, not additively like elemental mods. Even if they did, we'd be losing essential mod slots trying to bias our weapons towards slash.

Impact will now ragdoll enemies when sufficiently high damage is done or accumulated over several smaller hits. This means enemies will be propelled to relative safety before you can kill them, and making hitting weakspots and lansing headshots near impossible. We invariably shoot things to kill them, if we want CC we also have that specific option, and ragdolling is a very counterproductive form of CC.

Puncture reduces enemy damage more gradually but up to a higher percentage (from 10 up to 75%). This is just not very useful, particularly when enemies can just be outright killed or CCd with other damage types.

 

Basically, these change only further reinforce the already strong meta, making strong slash weapons relatively much stronger still than other weapons, which may well become completely useless.

These mechanics seem like they are exclusively targeted at validating the new frame Khora's damage type gimmick. They bring further imbalance to our weapons, unlike with Khora we can't just choose our IPS to suit our current needs, we are stuck with a much narrower selection of weapons that is actually effective at killing things and dealing with the game's ridiculously unbalanced armour scaling.

You don't have to hear it from Brozime. Literally everyone who understands the proposed changes is saying this, even those that are very rarely at all critical of the game.

[ScribbleClash]

11 hours ago, Azullion1 said:

Please watch this video from Brozime. Thank you.

[...]

No. Seriously if you have no opinion yourself, then don't start a thread. And if your opinion is "I just agree with this guy", then HIS comment section is your place. I see no reason to "promote" youtubers here.

10 hours ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

Regardless how it turns out it is a fact as of right now DE plans to Nerf Slash we directly ask not to do this

Even if this is the case, who is this "we" YOU are speaking of? I personally think that slash requires a nerf. I bet other people do as well. So speak for yourself, rather than for an omnious group.

[Mudfam]

2 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Even if this is the case, who is this "we" YOU are speaking of? I personally think that slash requires a nerf. I bet other people do as well. So speak for yourself, rather than for an omnious group.

I'm curious as to why you think slash damage needs a nerf. The damage output from bleed procs is not that great, mainly it has the important quality of bypassing armour, giving us one additional way to deal with it beyond removing it with corrosive procs or CP. Do you know that level 100 heavy units have 96% damage reduction on top of their exponentially scaled health? They are practically unkillable unless we are somehow able to get around that armour.

Personally I think this exponential armour scaling is what should be fixed, to break the very strict meta and bring balance between different enemy types and factions. As long as it remains, balancing things is pretty much impossible, and a huge portion of the tools at our disposal (not just weapons and their damage types) are entirely ineffective.

Either way, this isn't really a nerf to slash damage at all, but rather a greater disparity between slash focused weapons and those that aren't, reinforcing the current meta rather than breaking it. I suspect DE didn't realise their mistake here, and are now reconsidering their proposal. I hope they take a big U turn because none of this sounds at all good.

[ScribbleClash]

2 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

I'm curious as to why you think slash damage needs a nerf. The damage output from bleed procs is not that great, mainly it has the important quality of bypassing armour, giving us one additional way to deal with it beyond removing it with corrosive procs or CP. Do you know that level 100 heavy units have 96% damage reduction on top of their exponentially scaled health? They are practically unkillable unless we are somehow able to get around that armour.

Personally I think this exponential armour scaling is what should be fixed, to break the very strict meta and bring balance between different enemy types and factions. As long as it remains, balancing things is pretty much impossible, and a huge portion of the tools at our disposal (not just weapons and their damage types) are entirely ineffective.

Either way, this isn't really a nerf to slash damage at all, but rather a greater disparity between slash focused weapons and those that aren't, reinforcing the current meta rather than breaking it. I suspect DE didn't realise their mistake here, and are now reconsidering their proposal. I hope they take a big U turn because none of this sounds at all good.

Because this is not a one-way street. Reducing slash damage could and SHOULD bring with a rebalancing on the enemies armor mechanic. Damage 2.0 dealth with how armor could be bypassed. Why people limit damage 2.5 only to the damage types and not how enemies TAKE damage is beyond me.

If DE plans to rework the damagetypes without looking at shield and armor, then they're bound to mess things up anyway.

[Mudfam]

2 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Because this is not a one-way street. Reducing slash damage could and SHOULD bring with a rebalancing on the enemies armor mechanic. Damage 2.0 dealth with how armor could be bypassed. Why people limit damage 2.5 only to the damage types and not how enemies TAKE damage is beyond me.

If DE plans to rework the damagetypes without looking at shield and armor, then they're bound to mess things up anyway.

Well, I 100% agree with that, and it's something I keep bringing up when this topic is discussed. Unfortunately I don't believe DE has ever expressed any interest in taking another look at enemy armour scaling, which is a much more serious and relevant issue now than it was at its inception. Fixing this would implicitly fix an enormous amount of problems with the game and open the road for real balance. In its current state it will just continue to push balance to udesirable places, as it already has.

Until then though, I really do not want this specific change which will further limit my build and loadout choices. Again, this really feels like they've only been thinking about Khora and not about general game balance at all.

[failedtodiet]

9 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Because this is not a one-way street. Reducing slash damage could and SHOULD bring with a rebalancing on the enemies armor mechanic. Damage 2.0 dealth with how armor could be bypassed. Why people limit damage 2.5 only to the damage types and not how enemies TAKE damage is beyond me.

If DE plans to rework the damagetypes without looking at shield and armor, then they're bound to mess things up anyway.

Very good point.

And actually i do want to see how DE's impact changes play out. Gonna re-launch Sonicor Space Program and have some fun.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

Yeah I still feel you guys are blowing this out of proportion. I also feel that people just get married to their meta builds and hate when a statistical trick gets discovered by DE and you can't exploit damage rules and just autokill everything with no effort, strategy, or style(except for figuring out the mod combo). For example why you would think that DE would allow ragdolling to prevent you from killing mobs because they would be out of range, most ragdolling never does that now except for then the mobs die. And every time a mob ragdolls I never had the problem that it prevented me from killing them BEFORE they got back up, plus that would only be an issue for mobs that don't go down in one hit or in one second.

I mean seriously, even if under your worse case scenario, and a mob gets ragdolled out of your weapon range and doesn't die, if you are just standing and shooting into a group those mobs would get up and still rush back towards you in the exact same direction they were heading prior to them being thrown, your general direction. Even if they are high level, now with this system they would more than likely have a reduced dmg from the puncture proc even if he got up and starting shooting at you, not to mention still receiving the slash proc. Unless there is some clipping issue, no ragdolled enemy ever gave me problems.

You guys don't have experience with Mag's Pull? She ragdolls EVERYTHING and mobs hardly die when she pulls. No one has ever complained that Mag's ragdolling prevented people from killing mobs more effectively.

I don't see this as a nerf of slash; I see this as increasing the effectiveness of impact and puncture. Also once this gets out in the wild and DE can analyze the numbers and more than likely they will adjust base damages to cover any serious problems with damage output. But the bottom line, if you were exploiting this trick it's no longer an option anymore. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of weapons out there that will still be effective with this new scheme.

And if they REALLY wanted to nerf this, they could have removed the damages types completely and made every weapon one or 2 dmg types only.

[BornWithTeeth]

16 hours ago, Sajochi said:

I see players throwing this around like it's a fact. Slash will still do the same thing it does. Puncture and Impact are being brought up to par. Weapons focused for certain IPS will have better results. 

What is concerning is the effects Puncture and Impact will have, and what the new proc distribution will entail. So far it looks like weapons with heavy IPS leaning in one area will benefit the most. 

So no, slash is not getting nerfed. Get your facts straight.

Do take a look at the dev workshop regarding it, though. The plan is to make physical procs scale based only on that damage type, as opposed to have slash procs scale off of 35% altogether. That’s fine...but they said nothing about changin the percentage with it. That means that in almost all weapons in the game, Slash will indeed be nerfed unless they change the percentage scaling to something notably higher than 35%.

 

That’s the simple math of it. Now, perhaps DE do intend to compensate for the lower base numbers, in which case that would be fine. The issue is that it doesn’t sound like that’s the plan. So, at the moment, it does indeed look like an across the board nerf of most Slash damage.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

7 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

ragdolling makes things stuck in unreachable places

Pointing out the elephant in the room, this means ragdolling needs to be fixed.

[GreyEnneract]

17 hours ago, Sajochi said:

I see players throwing this around like it's a fact. Slash will still do the same thing it does. Puncture and Impact are being brought up to par. Weapons focused for certain IPS will have better results. 

What is concerning is the effects Puncture and Impact will have, and what the new proc distribution will entail. So far it looks like weapons with heavy IPS leaning in one area will benefit the most. 

So no, slash is not getting nerfed. Get your facts straight.

"We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted."

That is objectively a nerf to slash's damage on every weapon. With it only not mattering as much on weapons with the vast majority of their damage being slash.
Also known as the weapons that are already fine as is, hurting Impact and Puncture based weapons more than their shoddy procs ever could.

As a side note to other posters, it's fine to not agree with Brozime or not like his personality.
However when quite a few people here call him an idiot, yet don't even counter the points he makes, it is comedically ironic.

[Kinetos]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I don't see this as a nerf of slash; I see this as increasing the effectiveness of impact and puncture

Puncture, due to its mechanic, is always directly inferior to impact. Not shooting is always going to do less damage than shooting with reduced damage. So no, they are not making Puncture better. Puncture needs to be entirely changed to do something else. 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

8 minutes ago, Kinetos said:

Puncture, due to its mechanic, is always directly inferior to impact. Not shooting is always going to do less damage than shooting with reduced damage. So no, they are not making Puncture better. Puncture needs to be entirely changed to do something else. 

Yeah, but don't procs STACK?  Why is everyone referring to the procs as being singular events that cancels out all other procs. Unless I'm mistaken all this really affects are those builds which relied on the trick that slash damage scaled with total damage, so you didn't care if puncture or impact proc'ed because the goal was to maintain slash all the time. By increasing the ability and the power of stagger this only means that enemies will on the whole take a little less damage for more chance to not shoot at all. Once again people have this sky is falling feeling that this will result in mobs being ragdolls out of your weapon range and can then start shooting at you and do enough damage to hurt/kill you, I have never seen this as a thing in the game, nor do I think in the testing that DE did prior to releasing this would they allow that to happen. And to top all that if you are consistently proc'ing a mob with most weapons that have the standard array of dmg types this would result in a rotating or overlapping sets of effects which would see a mob taking DOT for slash, occasionally stagger if not fall down, and with reduced dmg for the few times they manage to aim at you and shoot.

The only nerf I see here were builds which exploited slash procs to output more dmg in a manner it was never intended to.  Weapons with average sets of damage across types will probably suffer the most from this adjustment in pure DPS, but once again with procs stacking overall other things should be happening that compensate for that.

And yeah, they want you to work for those kills, not just run around shooting people a few times and killing them instantly in a few seconds.

[Kinetos]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Yeah, but don't procs STACK? 

Impact at its lowest stack is equivalent to 100% damage reduction. Puncture at its *best* stack will be 75%.

Puncture is purely irrelevant as a proc, and there is no way to make it relevant without a completely different mechanic on it than percent reduced outgoing damage. 

I made no mention of slash. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Kinetos

[peterc3]

Why? Why drop a video into a forum post with nothing to add from yourself? Why do you feel this well known warframe youtuber deserves to have more attention than he was getting? Any sort of summary, bullet points, anything to avoid watching some overly long BS from the rage of the week?

I would really love the ability to downvote.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

The only nerf I see here were builds which exploited slash procs to output more dmg in a manner it was never intended to.  Weapons with average sets of damage across types will probably suffer the most from this adjustment in pure DPS, but once again with procs stacking overall other things should be happening that compensate for that.

And yeah, they want you to work for those kills, not just run around shooting people a few times and killing them instantly in a few seconds.

Slash was working as intended... It also vastly out-performed the other damage types.

That aspect, in and of itself, made it overpowered.

 

But... It's been like this since damage 2.0 (...years). In other words, EVERYTHING is balanced around it. They have released numerous items, and mechanics taking the fact of how slash worked into account.

...Now they are changing Slash. 

I don't find that piece surprising really. The fact that they aren't announcing a sweeping host of changes to accompany it means they want to impact TTK though.

..That part is surprising to me.

 

 

 

[Vanille]

All I got from that is that it's basically nerfing hunters munitions because weapons without slash won't proc slash dmg, as it should be? why would weapons with 0 slash proc slash? Also he's using Lenz as an example. Why. Lenz is a crit weapon, not status. You don't build status on it, and you don't care if it procs slash or not. I do have to agree on the impact rework part though. Too much ragdolling around could make it tedious to kill an enemy.