Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[shoopypit]

1 hour ago, ThorienKELL said:

It's not an issue unless you make one for yourself. Ember is perfect as she is, one of most beloved and most played and most expensive (prime) warframes. You do not to repair thing that works, as would hardware repairmen say. I use her constantly and I never got any comment on her and if I do, nobody has to complain in PUG on anything really. You dislike it? Your problem. As for your recommendations: I'm an old guy, I've seen things like that happen million times. I do not take advises from players to developers seriously. Most of people, like 99% have no clue how difficult and demanding game design actually is - leave that to professionals. If you wanted to discuss potential improvements, you should titled your post differently. Not "hey all the people hate ember, maybe we should do something about it ... wink ...wink"

De seems intent on reworking abilities that are either afk abilities or kill everything on map with button abilities. Once they do this to embers wof ability all the embers will whine about Nerf and then a month later everyone's going to love it again. 

 

Yes wof sucks. Can't join a plains party that doesn't have an ember scrub in it.parkour to objective, everything just dies from fire, rinse repeat.

[Vaz2017]

As a new player, I would like to reiterate that it makes NO difference whether it's someone playing Ember or a veteran player in any other frame, the result is identical: they speed ahead and kill everything.

[Cubewano]

It doesn't really get any hate that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean the ability is good, or should remain how it is, but it isn't ruining people's days like a limbo seems to. 

can definitely see the skill being redone in the future one way or the other though, because it promotes a playstyle de doesn't support, and it also stands in the way of giving ember any true scaling capabilities. 

[(XBOX)Chuss The Red]

WoF is fine until people start using Firequake imo, not just because of the knockdowns but also because there are better mods they could be using such as Flash Accelerant (ESPECIALLY in public situations). Still have not seen an ember using Accelerant even without the augment for it though. The frame is not the issue, just people who are not very good with it.

 

Scrap that, can't even farm Oxium on Io with Hydroid anymore because of people camping spawn rooms. Back to Galatea!

Edited January 18, 2018 by (XB1)Chuss The Red

[ThorienKELL]

1 hour ago, shoopypit said:

 

Yes wof sucks. Can't join a plains party that doesn't have an ember scrub in it.parkour to objective, everything just dies from fire, rinse repeat.

Yes, nerf anything that works, drench that little last pleasure from this game, then all you whinebabies will maybe be satisfied at last. Btw I prefer to use mesa on Eidolon, she's far more efficient in exterminating tough targets then ember. Should we nerf her too? And that nova too, making targets visible and way too easy to kill, besides, she's way too fast. I'm asking you, where does it end?

[tomoebi]

3 hours ago, Vaz2017 said:

As a new player, I would like to reiterate that it makes NO difference whether it's someone playing Ember or a veteran player in any other frame, the result is identical: they speed ahead and kill everything.

This!

what we need is a new matchmaking system. Dont paired low mr player with mr10+ player, this is why i sometimes go solo.

In PoE i even struggle to catch up with veteran, they can go from point a to point b in a second, and then finish the bounty when im still running, lol.

This is also the reason i buy rush and maxed it. Now i can catch up with them in terms of speed, but still lag behind in damage capacity. But at least i can shoot something now.

Edited January 12, 2018 by tomoebi

[--Q--XFA]

On 1/10/2018 at 1:18 AM, EmilotMargus said:

I bet you're in a defense mission right now with an ember. I like you. 

nahh man. I'm in a defense mission with an ember teammate standing somewhere hidden and only moves at the end of each waves.

Edited January 12, 2018 by --Q--XFA

[shoopypit]

3 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

Yes, nerf anything that works, drench that little last pleasure from this game, then all you whinebabies will maybe be satisfied at last. Btw I prefer to use mesa on Eidolon, she's far more efficient in exterminating tough targets then ember. Should we nerf her too? And that nova too, making targets visible and way too easy to kill, besides, she's way too fast. I'm asking you, where does it end?

pleasure of what? using zero skill to kill everything in the area, excessively, repeatedly, without end? how is this fun? imagine if frosts avalanche were a toggle and would be constant. Annoying and dumb right? Excal's exalted you have to at least aim and be proactive. Even Mesa you have to aim at a general direction. Pretty cute that you had to deflect to other warframes, the discussion is about ember's wof. Also the issue isn't just in the plains. I only listed it specifically because it's my primary farm area right now, and it has literally been more than 50% an ember scrubbing it up. eck. in fact, there was even another player mindlessly using maim strike getting any leftover kills. It just wasn't fun at all. Luckily they're nerfing maiming strike into the ground. And eventually they'll rework ember's ult to actualy be something fun to use. 

 

It's also more than just "being effective". Is it fun playing with a wof ember? not in the least. Is it fun playing as one? Same. It's fine if you enjoy running around having a toggled ability kill everything for you. Just know that the rest of us are bored as F***, and look at you like a n00b scrub.

[Legion-Shields]

11 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

pleasure of what? using zero skill to kill everything in the area, excessively, repeatedly, without end? how is this fun? imagine if frosts avalanche were a toggle and would be constant. Annoying and dumb right? Excal's exalted you have to at least aim and be proactive. Even Mesa you have to aim at a general direction. Pretty cute that you had to deflect to other warframes, the discussion is about ember's wof. Also the issue isn't just in the plains. I only listed it specifically because it's my primary farm area right now, and it has literally been more than 50% an ember scrubbing it up. eck. in fact, there was even another player mindlessly using maim strike getting any leftover kills. It just wasn't fun at all. Luckily they're nerfing maiming strike into the ground. And eventually they'll rework ember's ult to actualy be something fun to use. 

 

It's also more than just "being effective". Is it fun playing with a wof ember? not in the least. Is it fun playing as one? Same. It's fine if you enjoy running around having a toggled ability kill everything for you. Just know that the rest of us are bored as F***, and look at you like a n00b scrub.

if people would just learn to aim and start relying on their primaries and secondaries more WoF wouldn't be an issue >.>

[Shinigami_Greed]

I would say I'm a somewhat considerate Ember.  Most of the time, if I'm using abilities at all, I'm combining Accelerant and Fire Blast to make my CO weapon of the day scarier.  I tend to turn of WoF if I wanna just smack or shoot things.  Which is most of the time.

[LordNero86]

Perhaps this is region and/or platform thing ( or at this point... just pure personal dislike/hate for the frame.... Who knows what the intention is)

Where I'm playing, and I mainly use ember with wof, I don't get flakked, at all. Some even asked what my build and weapon combo selection is, as it's efficient, even for sortie 3 level. 

Personal experience though

 

[----Legacy----]

11 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

Most veterans can wipe an entire map with Volt or Rhino and you will actually feel more left out than with an ember or banshee, Trust me. As a volt main, wiping an entire map is far easier than on an ember. Volt has insane CC and dps, is sort of invincible if played right while being as fast as sonic.

And then you keep mixing stuff, Volt's cc has to be manually refreshed periodically in order to keep enemies in place, and unlike WoF (a toggle that 9nly requires the user to go look for energy orbs once in a while), it won't move their hitbox to the ground (they stand still in place) without previous warning (you can see the fast wave expanding while affecting enemies) it also has a kinda long cast animation, it's damage potential relies in the amount of enemies (electric damage is good only against grineer machinery and corpus robots) and distance between them. Sure, it works and scaless better than Ember's WoF, but it also requires more player input than it in order to be effective.

11 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

Don't even get me started on how "invincible" Rhino, Nyx and harrow are, although the latter two do require some skill.

Rhino's tankiness is part of his theme, and even then Iron skin falls off quickly unless you start using builds focused on it... which requires the use of augments... which take mod slots... which means you have to sacrifice something else in order to make it work like that. 

Nyx, she only requires an augment and you have a squishy frame turned into terminator, add her ability to mind control enemies by turning them allies or simply making them go against each other to her passive "chance to disarm enemies affected by powers" (which is a dumb passive, imo) and all you need is a bit of energy and timers management to be fine, which is still more than "press 4 to kill or knock down between 10 to 22 enemies per second" (yes it has a cap of 5 explosions at once, but these still happen between 2 and 4 times/second)

And you lost me in Harrow since his cc is just a straight line and his support (healing and giving energy) rely entirely on the user's gunplay capabilities, while his immortality and damage boost can only be used properly if the player is aware of the environment to prevent as much damage as possible and then use it to clean as many enemies as he can with the damage boost by using weapons. I think harrow is the most balanced frame atm, and that's the main reason why you rarely see people using him instead of trinity.

11 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

Nova and Banshee can turn the entire mission into a game of "Candy Crush" . So tell me, compared to all of these "Balanced" frames, how does ember stack up.

Enemies affected by nova can still fight move (slowly af) and attack back, which means the team can still die in a single mistake. Banshee gets either stuck in place by sound quake, making her an easy target for ranged enemies, and silence is nothing but a temporal animation of enemies having a headache before they start fighting back, which provides a small room of fresh air in the heat of the battle.

I wouldn't mind Ember's cc if it simply kept enemies locked in the frightened animation (the one they do when the fire proc starts) instead of knocking them down. You also seem to forget the power of accelerant, which can easily increase fire damage taken by enemies from any source  by ~700% (probably more) while keeping the energy drain of WoF really low.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, shoopypit said:

pleasure of what? using zero skill to kill everything in the area, excessively, repeatedly, without end? how is this fun? imagine if frosts avalanche were a toggle and would be constant. Annoying and dumb right? Excal's exalted you have to at least aim and be proactive. Even Mesa you have to aim at a general direction. Pretty cute that you had to deflect to other warframes, the discussion is about ember's wof. Also the issue isn't just in the plains. I only listed it specifically because it's my primary farm area right now, and it has literally been more than 50% an ember scrubbing it up. eck. in fact, there was even another player mindlessly using maim strike getting any leftover kills. It just wasn't fun at all. Luckily they're nerfing maiming strike into the ground. And eventually they'll rework ember's ult to actualy be something fun to use. 

 

It's also more than just "being effective". Is it fun playing with a wof ember? not in the least. Is it fun playing as one? Same. It's fine if you enjoy running around having a toggled ability kill everything for you. Just know that the rest of us are bored as F***, and look at you like a n00b scrub.

There was never skill in Warframe when it comes to this topic (killing stuff). Other warframes in the past have suffered because "they were annoying" to that one group who doesn't like it, and it ends up being trash afterwards (hi there Ash). Where was it confirmed they will nerf maiming strike? Last time I checked, it is a Riven mods stat and players have invested IMMENSE amounts of platinum into that stat alone, never mind the base mod. Please elaborate how the Ash rework made Bladestorm fun to use, because no one even wastes their time with bleed procs that can't even proc Arcane Trickery.

Whether or not something fun is your opinion. I find it fun, and many other players do too, that is why they use her.

"noob scrub". Last time I checked, dishing out insults won't help you get more kills in matchmaking.  

Edited January 12, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Tandem28]

WoF is why I like Ember. I specifically like her because everything (low level) just dies. It makes grinding and clearing objectives much faster. It’s also balanced by not being able to scale well.

I think Ember is fine. She could use a rework of sorts to make her more viable at higher levels, but maybe not all frames needs to excel at that. Ember is great in her niche.

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

13 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And is it your "maturity" again that blinds you to the fact that the only reason a MR20+ player with a maxed out AoE warframe will come to a low-tier mission is because there are zero alternatives to them sometimes? 

If I need something from a Lith/Meso relic, be it relics themselves or their contents, I *will* bring a frame/weapon combo that allows me to wipe the floor with enemies.

If the only endless void fissure mission to farm Traces is available on a low-tier node - I will do exactly the same. 

Or if there's an alert I need. Or an Invasion. Or a Syndicate mission/Simaris target. There are plenty of reasons.

Attempting to stage a "fair" fight against enemies that melt when someone as much as looks in their general direction is far from productive OR fun.

Because I still need the loot and intentionally crippling myself just because there are no high-tier alternatives is not something I would willingly do.

Give us an option to run "heroic" mode of low-level nodes with more/better loot (a Heroic Lith Fissure with 2x or 3x Void Traces drop and/or buffed resource/credit drops, anyone?) and soon enough you won't see a single high-MR player carrying lowbies through early planets - or, if that's the wording you like, "denying them participation". 

Basically, this came across like you bring the most powerful frames and weapons to everything. Since this thread is about Ember, I can only conclude that you might be one of the players using her as a crutch.

I don't want Bird to get nerfed, but it's posts like these that illustrate why it might happen. I even understand wanting to run fissures as quickly and efficiently as possible, but from experience, neither Ember nor Banshee seem to be the best choices for this.

As a very experienced player, I know that I don't have to come to a low-tier mission with a maxed out AoE frame in order to get it done quickly and efficiently. If you see me in a mission with Ember, it's usually because I'm being lazy. For me, Ember is only good for preset groups or solo loot runs. I can bring my Inaros to a Lith exterminate and not only provide decent crowd control, but also provide health to other members of the squad.

As an experienced player I don't need maxed out AoE frames to carry new players through low level missions/planets.

Warframe has so many options. Almost all of the frames can be modded to be relatively powerful. It would be nice to keep Ember as an option, but if players are going to insist on showing up to missions only to force other players to watch them "press 4 to win", what do you think is going to happen?

I'm going back to my Supernatural marathon.

[MagPrime]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

I'm going back to my Supernatural marathon.

[Misgenesis]

It does, its a dated ability. Its also a symptom of a bigger problem.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Misgenesis

[ThorienKELL]

5 hours ago, shoopypit said:

 

It's also more than just "being effective". Is it fun playing with a wof ember? not in the least. Is it fun playing as one? Same. It's fine if you enjoy running around having a toggled ability kill everything for you. Just know that the rest of us are bored as F***, and look at you like a n00b scrub.

Lol and no. People like you are seriously the worse. "Hurr hurr have fun muh way, you way - no fun! No skills!" Nobody is holding a gun to your head to use ember you know, you can show us your uber gaming skills by using mag or oberon, so only that you can prove yourself being superior to us poor plebs. I have 3,2k hrs to this game, close to MR 25 atm, I play all frames, all have functional builds, I have all weapons and gear, mostly heavily formaed and with dozen of arcane sets installed and I assure you, whatever damage frame I choose to bring you won't feel the difference because enemies will equally fast die around you making your life easy and boring. So let us "noob scrubs" enjoy our ember, while you "superior skillers" can teach us how to play this game "right way" - your way - using more demanding frames, you know, ones more suited for better players. 

[LinXiaoWong]

In my eyes the problem is both the ability, both the matchmaking or the lack of matchmaking filters, and the damage system itself. 

This game is created to casual and semi hardcore players to kill and make fun of it. The pleasure most of us in this game is the (fashion frame) killing , yes lot of killing. The affinity itself not a problem because in a moderate range everyone can get affinity and can level up the gears, but the amount of affinity is a bit weird, you get the same xp and the level scaling not differ it at all. Another problem is the players not play mostly for the xp but fo the kills and the whole game statistics shows you how "good you are" we have a tons of stats but the peoples cannot accept if they need to miss the fun factor from the game which means the participate and - the killing. 

This is a person dependant how you deal with it and many peoples likes to be carried but a lot of peoples need a clarification they are not nuts and can kill something. Another issue with the hard cc and abilities like wof, quake, equinox's male form 4.th , mesas peacemaker and ash 4.th ability. These abilities designed to kill and cc the enemies and the other abilities unused or barely used. An equinox on an avarege missions no matter how high or low level the mission are I am always seeing the male form used for it's damage and cc abilities while the other form totally unused or barely used. These abilities harm the frames and ther uses because the peoples will only use the most efficient ways and sometimes these are designed to ruin the others fun.

This is nothing much to do with the weapons and accuracy because in my experience peoples tend to use abilities or spam them when they can get the more possible kill. That is a very boring playstyle to go afk or semi afk and use only an ability and basically do nothing. This game is not skill based and it should not  to be only but the current game is sometimes unfun because it teach the peoples these examples which ruins others fun.

The cave loots were symptoms, the badly designed abilities symptoms, the weapons and their ranking are symptoms (called bait and switch) directly making op and weak weapons and nerf them when they sold out.

The major problem is the devs not really fix the problems instead bandaid the symptons of their system flaws instead of take the time and fix it for the future. We players using only band aid solutions with the "git gud or play solo slogens" because the problem itself not solved if noone take a look at it. Much better to talk about it and feedback may be the devs will someday fix it. The only problem is DE is famous to not finish their beginned projects only years later.

 

[Palutenia]

As a new player my opinion is not the warframe itself the problem or the ability but if it is old enough can get some tweaks but more likely the whole damage and armor / enemy level scaling. 

I was not here when the cave loots fiascos happend and when they nerfed multiple items while they left untouched the real problems. 

There are multiple layers of the problem and hard to decide which one is in the more needs to solve.

just ponting out which could be the problems.

- Enemy scaling, Mod scaling / how some mods work, affinity and reward problems, poor ai and multiple bugs, warframes and abilities in overal.

They cannot balance it if they have multiple problems because a relatively good or working state items can turn to be useless if they touch it or others can be godlike it because they balance for the broken system.

I personally like the game as it is but there are multiple problems and systems which clearly not working as intended and the results often causes problems and balance issues. If I were DE I would fix instead these crucial systems and make a great overlock instead of adding new content for a while, because that can deeping the brokenness.  know this game can only survive if they add new content but if the game built upon broken systems in the future would cause more trouble than make any good.

[Druterium]

I think generally, for me at least, it's not so much about the ability as it is the build... for most scenarios I really prefer not to play with anyone built for max range because you never get to see any action, you have to run far afield to gather loot, and it's even worse for the newer players who don't want everything done for them.

I pretty much take Ember when I want to solo a mission quickly and "cheese" it. For that, I've got a high-strength, low-range build and I just sorta run around aiming myself at groups like a missile. If and when I take Ember in groups, I use a "utility" build with Firequake for CC and Flash Accelerant for team support.

 

[Reifnir]

5 hours ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

Warframe has so many options. Almost all of the frames can be modded to be relatively powerful. It would be nice to keep Ember as an option, but if players are going to insist on showing up to missions only to force other players to watch them "press 4 to win", what do you think is going to happen?

And what do you think is going to happen if DE caves in to whiners and nerfs Ember and Banshee? I can tell you what.

Next in line, they will start screaming to nerf Maim Equinox. Then Polarize/Crush Mag. Then Avalanche Frost. Then Divine Spear Nezha. Then Saryn, Nyx, Nova, Volt and probably even Trinity, because it is possible to build a Trinity that will clear Hydron/Helene as fast (if not faster) as a Soundquake Banshee. Until every single frame that can be used to efficiently farm low-tier content will get a nerfbat to the face. 

 

You want to play in a very specific way that suits just you personally and detest anything else? Play solo.

You want to play like that surrounded by people who feel the same? Find some friends and/or a clan. You can always form a team to chase grineer all across the map with nothing but Provas equipped using the Invite Only/Friends Only option.

You want to force every single player in the game to play like YOU want and if they do not comply, you want to take away their means to do so?.. Oh, so I guess this is what it was all about. Too bad, since Warframe is a very, very grindy game and there will *always* be people looking (and finding!) efficient ways to minimize time spent doing pathetically easy farming they have no way of avoiding (because see above - no high level alternatives). 

 

[kuciol]

15 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

You want to play in a very specific way that suits just you personally and detest anything else? Play solo.

You want to play like that surrounded by people who feel the same? Find some friends and/or a clan. You can always form a team to chase grineer all across the map with nothing but Provas equipped using the Invite Only/Friends Only option.

That works both ways you know? You force others to play by your rules by using bashee, ember or limbo.

 

19 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Next in line, they will start screaming to nerf Maim Equinox. Then Polarize/Crush Mag. Then Avalanche Frost. Then Divine Spear Nezha. Then Saryn, Nyx, Nova, Volt and probably even Trinity, because it is possible to build a Trinity that will clear Hydron/Helene as fast (if not faster) as a Soundquake Banshee. Until every single frame that can be used to efficiently farm low-tier content will get a nerfbat to the face.

Burst dmg vs aura of death. You cant even compare this.

You know what would solve this the easiest without destroying the frames? Simple tweak to make all those aoe abilities "line of sight", just like Octavias 1. This would allow you to keep your "lazy playstyle" and give others the option to just go next room. Just give them something to compensate like lower cost, more dmg or something. This would solve most of the problems, not all of them but we dont want to kill the frames. 

[RayxAyanami]

8 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Banshee gets either stuck in place by sound quake, making her an easy target for ranged enemies, and silence is nothing but a temporal animation of enemies having a headache before they start fighting back, which provides a small room of fresh air in the heat of the battle.

 

B...but....SONAR BANSHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

*angry dubstep noises*

[Reifnir]

9 minutes ago, kuciol said:

You know what would solve this the easiest without destroying the frames? Simple tweak to make all those aoe abilities "line of sight", just like Octavias 1.

They already did that to Excalibur once. His nuke was nerfed to require line of sight and a new 4th ability, the Spam Blade aka Exalted Blade was added.

The result? Excal is now either being used as a EB spammer or not at all. 

13 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Burst dmg vs aura of death. You cant even compare this.

But I can and I am. Any AoE-capable frame with a proper build can clear rooms faster than a Braton MK-1 wielding newbie can get to enemies. And it's a good thing, too, because Warframe, for all intents and purposes is not a traditional shooter - it's a 3rd person Diablo in space where most missions are about killing as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible for as much loot as possible. If you are hellbent on playing a game where your character feels like a cripple armed with a peashooter and has to personally unload an entire clip to kill one trash mob, maybe you should consider Destiny instead?