Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[robbybe01234]

2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

You did equip and use weapons too, right? not just WoF and bullet-jumps. Day Equinox has half the damage output of Ember and no way to increase it. She's also squishy but she only dies if I try to kill stuff using only Maim.

Also, there were 2 suggestions being passed around here.

I suggested adding a corrosive proc, but now thinking on my post above, things could be a lot better: Ember's WoF could mix with other frames' abilities. Frost's Avalanche, Ice Wave and Freeze would all generate a 100% chance Blast proc on all targets they hit that are being affected by World on Fire. Saryn's Molt expiration or Toxic Lash hitting enemies affected by WoF would proc % Gas (with all its mechanics) and so on. HA! HA! You could run over Hydroid's Undertow and blast all the enemies out of the water :D Some of the combos could also generate positive effects on the warframes, as long as they're in Ember's WoF - from toxin and slash resistance to armor buffs and regen.

Someone else suggested giving Ember an armor buff based on the damage dealt with WoF. Could work - either using a counter like Maim's (but then the energy upkeep should be higher) or by just refreshing every 5 seconds, the same way the melee combo does.

Yes, I went in with a full loadout just with a mod setup that would closely replicate what we expect WoF to be after the change.   This did reduce the range of accelerant but if that is the only thing that can interrupt enemies outside 6.9 m then my gameplay would be just standing there spamming accel every 3 seconds.  Many deaths were while I was ADS on a couple enemies in front of me while the crewman was able to flank me and got close enough to just 1-2 shot the frame.  Or in the other case was due to the extra time I needed to close the gap allowing more incoming shots.  As if the frame's TTK in the range game was reduced. 

I would encourage a change as WoF isn't engaging as it is.  If I had something to work towards during gameplay with her ult or some threshold to reach during the ult, that would be more engaging for me anyway.  Something like the theme of "she's cold to start but once you get her warmed up, she's unstoppable." Similar to a wildfire.  So a change is cool to prevent stagnation just not a change that is a direct reduction in effectiveness. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by NovusNova
Removed Quote

[Guest]

TBH, why not just go the easy route of giving Ember slowly scaling damage reduction that ramps up as WoF is kept active, to encourage players not to run away and go go closer. It would keep her from dying so fast.

Or if that is too OP make it scale to the amount of active heat procs in the cell, encouraging the use of 1 and 3 to proc on enemies too far away and encouraging the use of heat damage on weapons.

Or even make it like trinity's link, where damage to ember is redirected to the closest enemy in range of WoF, encouraging her to get close as well.

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

@[DE]Connor hope you will consider this, and pass it along.

Here I try to outline how big a nerf the proposed changes to vex armor will be for Chromas survivability - and this 'just' because his damage versus 1 particular enemy is too high. 

In the below calculations I have used the calculator found here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Current Vex Armor 

Chroma Armor: 350 

Power strength: 250% 

Max steel fiber 

With the above assumptions and the current calculation method of Vex Armor, Chroma has a damage reduction of 98.35% and an effective health multiplier of 60.72.

A base 1000 damage is here reduced to 16.5 damage received.

New Vex Armor 

Chroma Armor: 350 

Power strength: 250% 

Max steel fiber 

With the above assumptions and the proposed new calculation method of Vex Armor, Chroma will have a damage reduction of 94.45% and an effective health multiplier of 18.03 (just activate Elemental Ward in the calculator and input a value of 1250% (2.5 x 500% from Vex armor and elemental ward combined) and make sure vex armor is not activated).

A base damage of 1000 is here reduced to 55.5 (3.4 times more than the current vex armor).

Implications (nerf)

The above shows that the effective health multiplier of the proposed new calculation method only makes up around 30% of the current effective health multiplier, meaning a more than 66% nerf to Chromas survivability!

All this, 'just' because Chroma is one shotting Eidolons.. 

Alternate suggestions (prioritized order)

1. Dont change Vex armor, but instead put a damage cap per hit on the Eidolons - this way you can control the fights vs Eidolons better, and make sure we cannot trivialize it too much.

2. Only change the calculation method for Fury, meaning Scorn (and thus Chromas survivability) stays like it is now. This way his damage is nerfed (your reason for doing this) but his survivability is not. Make only Fury shared with group mates, and make it affinity range based.

3. Change Scorn completely, separating it from armor, and instead make it a damage reduction applied to damage taken BEFORE armor is considered (like Nidus' parasitic link). Scorn could start at 45% increasing to 85% or 90% (like Nidus) after 400 shields lost (similar to current Scorn). This way the damage taken calculation for Chroma would be: damage x (1-scorn) x (1-damage reduction from armor (affected by steel fiber, elemental ward etc)). Make only Fury shared with group mates, and make it affinity range based.

A base 1000 damage is here reduced to 12.78 (1000 x (1-0.9) x (1-0.8722)).

3.1 If you want to make power strength affect this new Scorn buff, consider making it max out (90%) somewhere between power strength of 200% and 250% (Nidus 'only' needs 180% power strength to max out parasitic link).

Final remark

I really hope you will consider the above and not gut Chromas survivability like the proposed changes will do, when what you really wanna 'fix' is his damage output in a very specific situation

Edited February 4, 2018 by (PS4)Rasmus_ep88
Format

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I'm not. I'm pointing out that Ember is functional now and why. I feel that if WoF has its range reduced, then Ember needs to have some kind of defensive buff in compensation, to help her survivability.

Well at least we agree on that point.

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I posted a huge chunk of the evidence which you asked for, by the way, it's lost somewhere in this ridiculous thread after the merging and shuffling. I'm also happy to just play through a full Sortie cycle with you so you can see for yourself.

To be quite honest, unless you're doing something like faceplanting everything with Firequake, then yeah, that makes sense... but that's also the obvious answer that's not really all that enlightening because that's the only real way Ember can survive a sortie (been there, done that, moved on to Inaros cause Ember's too squishy in a sortie).

You're not going to magically invalidate my experience with your asinine proclamations that she works in a sortie - Ember **IS NOT** sortie viable for the vast majority of players.

[Almagnus1]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

This is why I don't like ember and that I'm glad she is getting nerfed 

Ember needs a rework, not a nerf, otherwise Ember becomes a useless warframe... and no warframe deserves that.  Not even Hydroid or Mag.

[BornWithTeeth]

6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Well at least we agree on that point.

To be quite honest, unless you're doing something like faceplanting everything with Firequake, then yeah, that makes sense... but that's also the obvious answer that's not really all that enlightening because that's the only real way Ember can survive a sortie (been there, done that, moved on to Inaros cause Ember's too squishy in a sortie).

You're not going to magically invalidate my experience with your asinine proclamations that she works in a sortie - Ember **IS NOT** sortie viable for the vast majority of players.

I mean...you have multiple people not just saying that she works in Sortie, but posting evidence and now offering to do Sortie with you and show you. You have decided that you don't like to use Ember at Sortie level, that's all. That's fine, mind, but again, the likes of myself and @phoenix1992 are not some kind of weird rare saints of Ember who know the secret to making her work.

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I mean...you have multiple people not just saying that she works in Sortie, but posting evidence and now offering to do Sortie with you and show you. You have decided that you don't like to use Ember at Sortie level, that's all. That's fine, mind, but again, the likes of myself and @phoenix1992 are not some kind of weird rare saints of Ember who know the secret to making her work.

Actually we are.

Most people run MemEmber with Atterax.

Edited February 4, 2018 by phoenix1992

[(PSN)Vexx757]

7 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ember needs a rework, not a nerf, otherwise Ember becomes a useless warframe... and no warframe deserves that.  Not even Hydroid or Mag.

Just like ash`s bladestorm is useless

[Nasair]

My main concern with the effective range nerfs on Ember and Volts are their ability to CC.

• For Ember, her CC comes from her 4 augment that isn't great as is but with heavily reduced range even worse.
• For Volt, if he doesn't CC at range to the same degree of effectiveness as he is up close that is a big nerf...maybe change his 4 augment?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Nasair
wording

[Windy_Wind]

Can we use Atlas conclave augment for his 4th ability outside pvp please? I want  to wear them as armor.

[Balfaulx]

Why not make ash just work the way he used to, just have his clones kill things and activating 4 again joins you in. Then remove the ridiculous mark mechanic that any good built weapon would kill the mobs you target in the time you waste doing so. Now you can move freely hes a good dps again you can still join in if you want and FIXED! Otherwise as long as the mark target thing exists he will remain shelved.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Just like ash`s bladestorm is useless

Yup it's useless against those strawman enemies!

[grownpeace]

I like the listed changes so far, but I still feel, that Tailwind is to inflexible in most tileset rooms. A lot of the rooms do not have long straights, a lot are curved or have some sorts of obstacles protruding from the walls or ceiling. Using Tailwind and getting stuck on anything (due to the floaty nature of Zephyr) makes you slower then just bullet jumping and wastes the energy.

I have two ideas to help with this issue:

Making Tailwind follow the crosshair while the ability is active, instead of just propelling you into the direction you were looking while casting, would allow Zephyr to circumnavigate obstacles.

Making Tailwind a hold-to-use ability (with no/very cheap initial energy cost, and energy/s or energy/meter), propelling Zephyr in the direction of the crosshair as long as the ability key is pressed (only while airborn, to not conflict with the charge on ground), would allows Zephyr to better controll the range she wants to travel.
To prevent this from being used for ultra cheap dive bombs, the divebomb effect could come after a certain amount of energy spent, or distance travelled, or speed reached.

 

Argument Idea: (Tailwind Vortex?)
Flying past enemys 'sucks' them in (Like a train passing a trainstation, maybe stagger), lining them up (would combo great with a weapon with punchthrough).
Divebombing would still work like Divebomb Vortex.

[Tengetsu96]

Ash can melt level 100+ heavy units with Bladestorm alone, the change makes it easier to use without reverting it back to "tap 4 to clear"

 

Accelerant is basically a re-castable Silence from Banshee. People downplay it, but stunning enemies for 4+ seconds in a wide aoe with a low energy cost is hardly useless

Its the same case with fire blast, which has knock-back and constant Heat/Panic procs

world on fire+fire quake won't be able to cover an entire room as well as before, but she hardly loses her CC capabilities 

[Ace20035]

Ember is one of the main Warframes I use, so doubling Embers damage and halfing her range will have a big impact on how I play her. I use her range and firequake augment to cc enemies. Since her fireball and fire blast abilities are getting reward I thought I'd give some ideas on how help scale her to end game and helping with open world areas, while still making her play similarly.

Fire blast could be scaled with range again like it used to be. While Ember is inside the fire blast ability she could have higher armor, heal within the flames and or less energy drain for her other abilities (this could possibly be used for other players as well to a lesser degree). This would help with her survivability in endgame. Allowing her to take more hits in open world environments where a good percentage of enemies don't go within range anyway. This would make it to where she can still move around the map with a good amount of freedom that firequake currently allows. Also Fireball could even be Amplified to shoot more projectiles at higher number of enemies as well. Like instead of shooting one Fireball have several rain down from the sky like meteors smashing and burning the enemies. 

I look forward to reading the comments. I would love if someone from De could comment too. 

[cookieknife]

I think fireblast should Automatically do the fire proc

her augment that adds it to it does something you already expect it to 

Edited February 4, 2018 by cookieknife

[cookieknife]

I also think ember should receive a damage reduction for every enemy she has on fire at the moment 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

44 minutes ago, Balfaulx said:

Why not make ash just work the way he used to, just have his clones kill things and activating 4 again joins you in. Then remove the ridiculous mark mechanic that any good built weapon would kill the mobs you target in the time you waste doing so. Now you can move freely hes a good dps again you can still join in if you want and FIXED! Otherwise as long as the mark target thing exists he will remain shelved.

THANK YOU FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!  I have a solution to this prob where everyone is happy. You can tell me what you think of this idea.

Things wrong with Ash`s bladestorm

·        He can`t use bs in a team because other players kill the marked targets e.g ember, mirage with simulor, banshee etc.

·        The animation is shown for every enemy marked red. One enemy mark = 1 sec 30 enemies marked = 30 secs which means bs is too long. Before ash`s clones killed with him shortening bs`s animation now 1^st mark is him doing it which makes bs way too long.

·        Activating bs is slow because of the two stages.

·        When using bs without a melee weapon is even slower to use before the change.

·        It`s harder to activate bs on a controller than on PC.

·        One enemy mark = 15 energy being invisible = 10 firstly it`s energy consuming and secondly what’s the point of watching the animation if I can`t see myself pulling off sick moves.

·        Weapons can kill better than him e.g syndicate procs (which for a damage dealing warframe is VERY BAD)

·        He can`t kill in a AOE anymore (can`t kill enemies behind walls) like embers 4^th ability, banchee`s 4^th etc.

·        Because enemy bodies disappear when ash uses bs nekros can`t desecrate the bodies.

The corrected way to fix bladestorm is to keep the old bs but with small changes;

·        Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·        Make bs able to kill as many enemies that are within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·        If players don’t want to watch the animation they can press 4 again to jump out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other enemies. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not.

Bs has three stages; 1^st stage activates bs, 2^nd stage makes you leave the animation and the 3^rd stage makes you to be able to cancel bs completely. When you jump out of bs, the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs are shown where the 4^th ability symbol is (like hydroid`s 3^rd ability)

·        (SYNERGY) If you use the 2^nd ability before you use bs enemy bodies will disappear like the way bs is now.

 

PROS

 

·        If a teammate needs reviving ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

·        For the minority of players that have motion sickness while watching bs, those players never have to watch bs ever again.

·        Ash is an option to use in a defence mission solo because if he doesn`t get all enemies in the bs radius those enemies free from bs are destroying the pod. Now he can jump out of bs and kill them off.

·        3^rd stage of bs can be used for situations like ash taking too long to kill high level targets e.g. lvl 100 ancient healer in the sorties

·        Ash WILL NOT be a kill stealer because other player will be able to kill enemies that are red. The only waframe that can spam his ultimate with no downsides.

·        Increasing the amount of kill he can get makes it fare for him to get kills if warframes like spamming saryn, ember and a banshee are in the same mission as he is.

·        It will make ash`s augment mod (Rising Storm) more useful, while the clones are killing his melee weapon will increase its strength plus you can also increase the combat multiplier by attacking enemies yourself.

·        With bs like this you no longer forced to use primed fury in your melee weapon to speed up bs if you don`t want to.

·        The indicator will let you know when you can use bs again by the numbers going down to zero.

·        2^nd and 4^th ability has synergy because enemies near the enemy that is assassinated by bs won’t be alerted which means it will add to the stealth multiplayer. This makes it to where you can strategize to either kill multiple enemies stealthily or just go full frontal assault which makes ash a true stealth frame.

 

·        (OPTIONAL) Elemental mods on melee weapons affect his shuriken e.g. toxic mod on melee weapon = toxic shuriken, ice mod on melee weapon = ice shuriken (which will slow enemies down) OR make it scale by melee damage multiplier which will give synergy with his 1^st ability and his melee weapon.

·        (OPTIONAL) when holding the 1^st ability button ash will throw four shuriken’s which will double in damage and duration of ticks (10 secs to 20 secs) at the cost of 50 energy. 

·        (OPTIONAL) Enemies affected by the stun of smoke screen will reduce their accuracy and make them susceptible to damage by 60% for 10 seconds. (can`t be increased or decreased with mods) Although he won`t benefit from the accuracy reduction due to him being cloaked, he will be team friendly by de-buffing enemies, can be use strategically, it also synergises with his 1^st, 3^rd and 4^th abilities because they will do even more damage due to the enemies being susceptible to damage which makes him an efficient killer.

·        (OPTIONAL) Make ash be able to teleport through windows with his 3^rd ability if there is an enemy, ally, MPC or an object with a health bar on the other side of it. (if you understand the concept of teleporting you will get this)

·        (OPTIONAL) Make ash be able to teleport to enemies in the air (annoying ospreys) with an air finisher or 1 second spent in the air.

·        (OPTIONAL) Aiming and holding the 3^rd ability indicates the area you want to teleport to similar to nidus 1^st ability. This makes it to where you can strategically move around the map sneakily without having to lock on to an enemy and brake the stealth multiplier.

·        (OPTIONAL) If ash uses his 2^nd ability first, his 1^st and 3^rd ability kills will make enemy bodies disappear.

·        (NERF) If player want to skip the animation it will cost you 25 energy, same with stopping bs entirely, doing both will cost you 50 energy, plus no matter how much efficiency you put on ash it will still take 25 or 50 energy.

·        (OPTIONAL NERF) Instead of being invulnerable when in bs ash has an 80% damage reduction.

·        FIX: Make his 3^rd ability able to teleport in and out of grates. At the moment he can only teleport in them plus not every grate he can teleport to.

·        FIX: Make ash`s bs apparitions (clones) look the same as ash instead of looking holographic (really the “clones” are meant to represent how fast he is teleporting).

[Marine027]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Tengetsu96:

Ash can melt level 100+ heavy units with Bladestorm alone, the change makes it easier to use without reverting it back to "tap 4 to clear"

 

Accelerant is basically a re-castable Silence from Banshee. People downplay it, but stunning enemies for 4+ seconds in a wide aoe with a low energy cost is hardly useless

Its the same case with fire blast, which has knock-back and constant Heat/Panic procs

world on fire+fire quake won't be able to cover an entire room as well as before, but she hardly loses her CC capabilities 

This.^

People forget the wohle kite matters, not jsut one tihng tahtgets changed, on Ember as example i noticed how very well her 2 is evne, a very good stun evne with low duraiton its sitll long.on top of boosting thefire damage anyway, Ember for me was the most synergized one so far, her 1stsure isn't the best, but so is every frame who has such and that needs a tweak, while WoF just was turn it on and lfie with it which is not much gameplay with it simply. Same for Banshee as you said.

But overall people forget the also useful abiltiys or sdieffects of weapons even, instead we have peopel relying on one thing onl, thne screma if it not works anymore, instead of learnign ot use a variety ofthings instead.geez we have loadout options as exmapel fora reoasn to adjsut to different things.

[DJEnFreakque]

Chroma change can be good, if only they address the Teralysts. One/Two/Three shooting them is they only way to farm and beat them solo, I've gone hunting, to find nobody that wants to hunt them, even after a bounty and it became night. So I'm forced to go Solo, and I tell you...it sucks, Without Arcanes like that of Tactical Potatoes has or plenty of restorative gear for energy, shields, and health, it's a S#&$ show, and prevents me from furthering in the game. That's the wall I've hit.

Until people are motivated to have groups for the Plains to hunt Teralysts, I need this broken fury buff. Or make a way for better rewarding to encourage people to group together especially in-game or to motivate them to even go after them. I have join Discords to find groups to farm Teralysts, than using the Recruitment chat.

They should have it where the new changes for chrome only affects all mission types except those of the "Open World" or to have it trigger the old change during Endgame situations.

[Kriss941]

Most of these are welcome changes, however I have a couple problems with Chroma and Ember... 

Ember: 

From what I can see this is a straight nerf to ember in late game. The way WOF works currently in late game is as a very light "CC aura" around you helping you stay aliveas well as adding dmg to your Condition Overload melee. Making the range half and the energy cost double will be a big nerf at these higher levels. Now people are probably already typing away saying that "oh, but they are doubling the dmg!" to which I'll reply by saying that 0x2 is still 0... WoF does absolutely no dmg at high levels and doubling it won't make a difference. It takes a 320% power strength ember 3 minutes to kill a lvl 80 heavy gunner with her WoF alone, dropping that to 1.5 minutes make no difference. So for high level play ember is basically just getting more drain, less range, and she still won't do any dmg, it will just make her CC less effective and harder to keep up...

Chroma:

Now you don't really touch on it in this post, but how is his defensive capabilities being affectedby this? from what I've heard, his 3's armor buff will also become additive just adding a percentage of your base armor on top of your total. and if that's true my chroma build is looking at a loss of atleast 100K EHP which is a massive nerf to his surviveability... Making it an aura is a welcome change, though it needs to be like volts speed which sticks to teammates after they leave your range as well. Forcing your entire team to stay within a 10 radius to keep the buff will promote a campy, boring playstyle which I belive is something you have said multiple times you want to avoid? That being said I can see chroma being much more of a team player using his augmented 2nd and his 3rd to give a substantial boost to teammates.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Anybody who thinks Ash's bladestorm should go back to p4tw obviously haven't touched ash after rework2.0 or used bladestorm against lvl 60+ enemies

The ability can kill lvl 100 heavy gunners/bombards unmodded https://youtu.be/NKZjfC5Iwtw

Beside why would DE make bladestorm a nuke again and nerf World on Fire

This kind of foolishness disappoints me.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

Actually we are.

Most people run MemEmber with Atterax.

I'm gonna start calling myself the Bodhisattva of Cinder now.

 

Just 'cos.

[tnccs215]

38 minutes ago, Tengetsu96 said:

Ash can melt level 100+ heavy units with Bladestorm alone, the change makes it easier to use without reverting it back to "tap 4 to clear"

 

Accelerant is basically a re-castable Silence from Banshee. People downplay it, but stunning enemies for 4+ seconds in a wide aoe with a low energy cost is hardly useless

Its the same case with fire blast, which has knock-back and constant Heat/Panic procs

world on fire+fire quake won't be able to cover an entire room as well as before, but she hardly loses her CC capabilities 

Yeah... Look, I admit I don't play Ember all that much, but even I can see the issues with this argument. 

She still has some cc capabilities on her second and third abilities, true, but that CC only happens on demand. FQ allowed set and forget CC to five enemies around you - which, to a frame with next to no defensive capabilities, is rather important. 

It's the difference between being able to attack, or having to stop yourself every 4 seconds. 

For a more practical analogy, compare to Nekros before and after Desecrate rework. 

[Balfaulx]

37 minutes ago, Tengetsu96 said:

Ash can melt level 100+ heavy units with Bladestorm alone, the change makes it easier to use without reverting it back to "tap 4 to clear"

 

Accelerant is basically a re-castable Silence from Banshee. People downplay it, but stunning enemies for 4+ seconds in a wide aoe with a low energy cost is hardly useless

Its the same case with fire blast, which has knock-back and constant Heat/Panic procs

world on fire+fire quake won't be able to cover an entire room as well as before, but she hardly loses her CC capabilities 

Yes he can so can half the guns I own by tapping my left click to clear so what again is the problem with tap 4 to clear hes a dps frame that's his job. If he cant do it he gets benched and replaced with other frames / weapons that can. The complaint for ash wasn't he was a pres 4 to clear frame it was always his animations were at the forefront of the issue people had. As it is now he still has the animations and now you have to do extra work to use them which is what no one wanted. Make 4 be the way it was let the clones do it to not lock you into the animation and then 4 again to do animation yourself for invincibility frame. He will then be a functional frame again otherwise my Ivara killer stealth Frisbee can kill whole rooms of 100+ enemies in his place.