When the hell is Meme Strike being nerf'd? I'm getting so sick of it, it literally is worse than Ember.

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

without the flatcrit increase on slide attack long range weapon r kinda harmless because they have low dmg already

idk why ppl r complaining so much about it 

is it because u dont have maiming strike 

is it because u r too slow or bad at maneuvers so others r "stealing"  "ur" kills before u can do anything?

is it because u cant get the loot on the other side of the map in time before mission ends?

is it because u feel utterly uselesss and want to participate in trashing low lvl mobs too?

i just "enjoyed" a game on hydron-sedna with a max range mag she dealt about 90% of the squad dmg, i barely saw any grineer before they died in the end i decided to simply buff said mag with my rhinos shout and started collecting all the good stuff laying around while leeching some exp and focus

honestly if u r so jealous of others in a pve game maybe coop isnt made for u...

[Jarriaga]

23 hours ago, thalion987 said:

If you nerf something another thing will take its place. So this is a pointless and endless circle. Because of these kind of threads DE will nerf until nothing fun is left.

Definitely a thing on Hydron. I see Equinox a lot more frequently after the Banshee and Ember changes.

This debacle would not even exist if DE implemented a "restricted mods" filter in the matchmaking menu, in which you could opt-out of playing with those who use Maiming Strike.

MS defenders would get to keep using it as they like. Those who don't mind would let them keep using it, and those who do mind won't have to be a part of it. Problem solved for both ends.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Jarriaga

[MirageKnight]

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I see Equinox a lot more frequently after the Banshee and Ember changes.

Trust me, she's already on the "needs tweaking" list...

At least the Banshees I've seen on Hydron recently actually use Sonar and Silence now.

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Trust me, she's already on the "needs tweaking" list...

At least the Banshees I've seen on Hydron recently actually use Sonar and Silence now.

Oh yes. The less-frequent Banshees I see are using Sonar now, which I appreciate a lot since I'm Valkyr most of the time.

As for Equinox? I didn't see it as a problem because it was quite rare for me to find an Equinox player before. Now people are just replacing Ember/Banshee with her. It shows they really never liked the frames; they just liked the efficiency.

This could also be fixed with an "opt out" option without having to nerf them.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Jarriaga

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

is it because u dont have maiming strike

*breathes in*

Boi.
 

1 hour ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

i just "enjoyed" a game on hydron-sedna with a max range mag she dealt about 90% of the squad dmg, i barely saw any grineer before they died in the end i decided to simply buff said mag with my rhinos shout and started collecting all the good stuff laying around while leeching some exp and focus

Bold word for emphasis.

The problem with trivializing the game is two-fold: People who choose not to resort to noobish behavior like you're advocating for are left playing janitor in a now walking simulator, and it encourages people to be useless leeches. I have an extreme disdain for people who waste team slots by standing around and doing nothing having everyone else do all the work while they reap the rewards, especially in missions like sorties. These people develop this behavior, because they know spin2win scrubs want to clear rooms in 1 attack without any encouragement on their part.

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

*breathes in*

Boi.
 

Bold word for emphasis.

The problem with trivializing the game is two-fold: People who choose not to resort to noobish behavior like you're advocating for are left playing janitor in a now walking simulator, and it encourages people to be useless leeches. I have an extreme disdain for people who waste team slots by standing around and doing nothing having everyone else do all the work while they reap the rewards, especially in missions like sorties. These people develop this behavior, because they know spin2win scrubs want to clear rooms in 1 attack without any encouragement on their part.

triggered...xD

plz dont read too much into the word "leech" every kill a squadmember does which u get exp for and which drops loot for u, is leeching done by u this will happen even if u dont want to

dont underestimate rhinos 1,65x multiplier (i only have intensify :C) just this single buff contributes about 33% of the 90% squad-dmg that mag dealt the dmg should have been mine even if it isnt listed in the stats after the mission ofc this accounts for other buff frames too

i also wrote "enjoyed" because it wasnt fun for me alright? but what can i do? i dont feel like running around all over the map and when i finally spot an enemy it dies right in front of me to some aoe skill...

but i dont think mag needs to be nerfed after exping this it just shows me that the mag-player used proper mod-built and has the right mods to achieve such a great result against low/mid lvl units

if grind is part of a game it should also be easy to sweep through ur opponents or the grind will become even more unenjoyable as it already is, thus at some point (once u have the good weapons/ frames and mods) low and mid lvl units will be trivial for u and ppl complaining about this r mental in my opinion (sry for the offense but if u think about this properly it s logical)

i do understand though that u want to have a certain amount of challenge to keep u motivated but this shouldnt be in the grind part of the game

 

[Gedrot]

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

2. It  is relevant only to low level content. Remember, enemies scale multiplicatively and so do weapons. Which means in cases such as index your maiming strike build isn't going to stop anyone from killing the enemies there; not that it ever did; but its strength is significantly reduced due to the behavior of enemy scaling.

Yeah, no. While there might be a select amount of weapons+build that will perform similar to this, there are far more that won't escalate with time as ridiculously as this.

But since there is still the rebalance for beam- and melee-weapons coming up, I still have my hopes up. This build is probably going to be drawn into consideration, possibly resulting in melee 2.1.

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

How about complaining about Ignis crushing low level content in a 20m AOE cone?

A fully build weapon "crushing" low level content? The horror!

Most people use the Ignis for breaking open as many containers in a room as fast as possible, get all that low level trash out of the way is just a bonus. After all, you can just skip those and go to the objective directly as the vast majority of players do. You can do the trash-mob-murder with any beam-weapon that has Combustion Beam on it pretty much the same. Low level content being in those cases below lv.30.

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

It is selfish to demand someone stop playing a certain way because YOU do not enjoy it.

Insisting on killing other peoples enjoyment in a co-op game is generally regarded as the greater selfish.

 

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

Potentially...Limbo can make it impossible to capture a target and lock the game for hours.

Potentially, Frost can disrupt gameplay by block shots.

1. Yes he can, but he will fail together with his team. If Banish even still works like this.

2. It simply doesn't let bullets from the outside in, this counts simply for everyone. You're simply on the wrong side of the Bubble, get inside the Bubble and profit from it's advantages.

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

The solution would be to provide high level players stronger content to play.

This would require content that is, due to enemy-scaling, reserved only to spin2win-builds and meta-guns with god-tier-rivens.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gedrot

[MirageKnight]

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

As for Equinox? I didn't see it as a problem because it was quite rare for me to find an Equinox player before. Now people are just replacing Ember/Banshee with her.

Probably the reason you haven't seen much of Equinox until now is because she's the go-to 'Frame for farming Focus and most people feel it's better to do that in high level Exterminate missions and running solo.

27 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It shows they really never liked the frames; they just liked the efficiency.

That I will completely agree with.

On the topic of "efficiency", I think DE should be addressing why players need to be super-efficient...one of those things arguably being the massive grind that is Focus.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Who cares if low lvl enemies are slaughtered quickly and easily. Why are people whining about this? 

[thalion987]

Why not instead of nerfing stuff buff enemy amount? Make something like a slider when starting a mission. with double/triple/quadruple the enemy count there will always be something to kill for everyone.

Other idea is to make it so the team gets more xp when the kill counts are closer to each other. anything is better then nerfing things. that just kills the fun out of this game.  

Edited February 16, 2018 by thalion987

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

12 minutes ago, thalion987 said:

Why not instead of nerfing stuff buff enemy amount? Make something like a slider when starting a mission. with double/triple/quadruple the enemy count there will always be something to kill for everyone.

Other idea is to make it so the team gets more xp when the kill counts are closer to each other. anything is better then nerfing things. that just kills the fun out of this game.  

I want a slider for survivals. Then i can solo endless survivals without running out of life support.

Edited February 16, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Gedrot]

1 hour ago, thalion987 said:

Why not instead of nerfing stuff buff enemy amount? Make something like a slider when starting a mission. with double/triple/quadruple the enemy count there will always be something to kill for everyone.

Other idea is to make it so the team gets more xp when the kill counts are closer to each other. anything is better then nerfing things. that just kills the fun out of this game.  

This would only increase the problem, not solve it. It would end with everyone having to play spin2win-builds and Maiming Strike is the one mod you will want to have for those and it's really expensive.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Who cares if low lvl enemies are slaughtered quickly and easily. Why are people whining about this? 

Because it's even the tougher high-lvl enemies (like Bombards above lv.100) that are slaughtered quickly with this.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

30 minutes ago, Gedrot said:

This would only increase the problem, not solve it. It would end with everyone having to play spin2win-builds and Maiming Strike is the one mod you will want to have for those and it's really expensive.

 

Because it's even the tougher high-lvl enemies (like Bombards above lv.100) that are slaughtered quickly with this.

Again, who cares. 

[--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe]

4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

*breathes in*

Boi.
 

Bold word for emphasis.

The problem with trivializing the game is two-fold: People who choose not to resort to noobish behavior like you're advocating for are left playing janitor in a now walking simulator, and it encourages people to be useless leeches. I have an extreme disdain for people who waste team slots by standing around and doing nothing having everyone else do all the work while they reap the rewards, especially in missions like sorties. These people develop this behavior, because they know spin2win scrubs want to clear rooms in 1 attack without any encouragement on their part.

This ^

[--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe]

3 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Who cares if low lvl enemies are slaughtered quickly and easily. Why are people whining about this? 

Because I wanna play the game for fun and kill stuff and do objectives and fight high level stuff and juts have a good time... I can't if there is nothing to shoot me or kill or anything. My melee I currently use is like a dozen times stronger than a meme strike atterax, problem is It lacks the range the rax does and so in general... I can't even use it.

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, Gedrot said:

Because it's even the tougher high-lvl enemies (like Bombards above lv.100) that are slaughtered quickly with this.

This. I've seen a non-Maiming Strike Atterax build that slaughtered 8 Level 150 Corrupted Bombards in 8 seconds with 3 spin attacks. Modded with CO and BR with Body Count, Drifting Contact, Viral damage and Organ Shatter. No Corrosive Projection.

That is stupidly overpowered.

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb MirageKnight:

This. I've seen a non-Maiming Strike Atterax build that slaughtered 8 Level 150 Corrupted Bombards in 8 seconds with 3 spin attacks. Modded with CO and BR with Body Count, Drifting Contact, Viral damage and Organ Shatter. No Corrosive Projection.

That is stupidly overpowered.

well viral procc+slash procc is a good combo after all

scoliac can be better than atterax too thx to the better riven dispo <.<

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

well viral procc+slash procc is a good combo after all

Agreed!

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, Aegni said:

First of all we should never look at the "potential" possibility for there to be a problem.

What? That is in a designer's job description.

4 hours ago, Aegni said:

This is ignoring the fact that you completely contradict yourself regarding the matter  of Limbo.

No, I don't. Limbo can grief other players, but that's not a playstyle. It's not something that happens in the normal course of playing the game, but rather something that is deliberately done in contravention of the game's rules and expectations, and is an altogether different design problem.

4 hours ago, Aegni said:

It  is relevant only to low level content.

No, it isn't, specifically because of the way it scales with Blood Rush and the Gladiator set. Melee weapons already scale better than almost anything that doesn't have a combo multiplier (i.e. everything but sniper rifles), and Maiming Strike builds scale far better than anything else in the game except for Covert Lethality and Trinity's 1-2 combo (both of which are single-target attacks), and Equinox's similarly titled Maim, which requires someone to kill at least one target to begin with.

It's not even Maiming Strike that's the problem, at least not on its own. Part of it is Blood Rush and Gladiator in combination with flat crit chance bonuses, of which Maiming Strike just happens to be one of the biggest and most reliable. When a kavat or Harrow gives you a crit buff, the same thing happens. The problem is Blood Rush.

5 hours ago, Aegni said:

No one, not even you, has demonstrated in what way it is disruptive. The most it comes down to is "the person using this gets a lot of kills and I don't like it."  So...what?  It is like complaining that someone playing Ember did the most damage in the game. She is designed to deal constant damage in an AOE. I would be concerned if this didn't lead to high damage numbers because then it suggests she does not fulfill her goal.  Shall we complain about Frost and Gara being damn near mandatory for any high level defense missions? How about complaining about Ignis crushing low level content in a 20m AOE cone?

But we have. I was on a break from Warframe during Shadow Debt almost 2 years ago, but others have been talking about this long before me. Simply put, it allows players to trivialize content at all levels with minimal input or effort. It allows one player to effectively circumvent game mechanics in a way that removes (or at a minimum, drastically reduces) the opportunity for the players around them to engage with the game as otherwise designed. It's one thing if a player just plays the game better than another. But this is button-mashing nonsense that removes anything resembling "gameplay" from the equation for everyone involved.

As Rebb said when showcasing the earlier Resonating Quake revision, DE is not waging war on AoE. It's automation they don't like. Mashing slide attacks is dangerously close to automation, and can itself be automated quite easily. And unlike Ignis, it does sniper rifle levels of damage to every enemy in range.

If you're going to bring up Frost and Gara, note that enemies can walk through Snow Globe. Mass Vitrify was nerfed specifically because they can't, and it created a degenerative and unengaging "playstyle". That aside, they are certainly not mandatory for high level defense. Almost every frame in the game has the tools to handle that, with the possible exception of Trinity, and even she can manage with a good explosive weapon for CC.

6 hours ago, Aegni said:

The solution would be to provide high level players stronger content to play. If you force weapons to scale based on enemy level, you get a Destiny/Destiny 2 variant and that will kill player retention and is objectively, bad game design.

Higher level content doesn't stop MSBR builds. To the contrary, if you push the content high enough, "spin to win" will be one of very few approaches that remain effective. Good design demands for multiple tactics to be effective, and none of them to be mindless button mashing. I would certainly like more sortie-level content, but that won't fix the problem. And if you push beyond current sortie level, you just have Destiny levels of bullet sponge anyway.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

Because I wanna play the game for fun and kill stuff and do objectives and fight high level stuff and juts have a good time... I can't if there is nothing to shoot me or kill or anything. My melee I currently use is like a dozen times stronger than a meme strike atterax, problem is It lacks the range the rax does and so in general... I can't even use it.

Then do all those things. Ur a self proclaimed Vereran... What u only have access to one weapon?

Edited February 17, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Sorise]

Another solution would be damage falloff timer.

If one spams, over time he'll find that his damage shall falloff as the range of max dmg gets smaller and smaller at "absurd" range.

So he'll have to stop for awhile.

This is only an alternative to nefing range.

If range not being nerfed than this can be ignored.

[Himenoinu]

On 2/16/2018 at 2:35 AM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

We need higher lvl content, not the nerf hammer.

They aren't mutually exclusive, though. And higher level content won't change the way people farm everything else. It's not like the moment new content - suited for that weapon or playstyle - pops up, everyone and their mothers who're using the whip/MS combo will stay there exclusively.

The way the game is now, with higher level content you'll eventually get weapons and mods to fit that content but which will add to the disruptive playstyle when used anywhere else.

Lastly, the nerf hammer expression is used loosly whenever a mechanic is changed, especially if that change is removing the possiblity of abuse or the status of "overpowered" from certain classes or gear. It's like saying "my employer nerfed my salary", without mentioning that in the last 5 months you've only went to work 1 day/week instead of the whole 5 :D

14 hours ago, Aegni said:

I have no issues with maiming strike builds because there is no issue. Just like with Ember.  No one is being prevented from playing the game, and the only areas where its considered a problem is in content that has no relevance in terms of enemy scaling. The solution would be to provide high level players stronger content to play. If you force weapons to scale based on enemy level, you get a Destiny/Destiny 2 variant and that will kill player retention and is objectively, bad game design.

Providing more content on the same mechanics fixes nothing. If enemy scaling is the problem, the new content should be them. New enemies, with new way of scaling and new behavior that can counteract on any type of linear playstyle - be it fidget spinners, scorchers, stealthers, etc.

On more thing, the fact that both Ember and the whip builds are (or were, in case of Ember) relevant in high level content, doesn't mean that abusing them in the "irrelevant" content should be okay. So, pretty much like with the booze and the "drink responsibly" tag, it should've been our task to enjoy or employ those mechanics responsibly. If that didn't happen (or won't happen), someone will have to take some measures to prevent us from trivializing low level content and altering some players' experience in a negative way, because, you know, there are people looking for other things than speed-clears and fast-farms in games).

So yeah, things need changed. MR gated public runs would be the fastest solution, but one that would segregate the community even more and potentially break the fun further (by having more players farming affinity to get to the better squads instead of enjoying the ride).

The AI and the enemy scaling are the two things that need to be looked at and updated to match the weapons, mods and frames of today. Contiuously adjusting the latters to fit a broken former will give no end of trouble.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

7 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

They aren't mutually exclusive, though. And higher level content won't change the way people farm everything else. It's not like the moment new content - suited for that weapon or playstyle - pops up, everyone and their mothers who're using the whip/MS combo will stay there exclusively.

The way the game is now, with higher level content you'll eventually get weapons and mods to fit that content but which will add to the disruptive playstyle when used anywhere else.

Lastly, the nerf hammer expression is used loosly whenever a mechanic is changed, especially if that change is removing the possiblity of abuse or the status of "overpowered" from certain classes or gear. It's like saying "my employer nerfed my salary", without mentioning that in the last 5 months you've only went to work 1 day/week instead of the whole 5 :D

Providing more content on the same mechanics fixes nothing. If enemy scaling is the problem, the new content should be them. New enemies, with new way of scaling and new behavior that can counteract on any type of linear playstyle - be it fidget spinners, scorchers, stealthers, etc.

On more thing, the fact that both Ember and the whip builds are (or were, in case of Ember) relevant in high level content, doesn't mean that abusing them in the "irrelevant" content should be okay. So, pretty much like with the booze and the "drink responsibly" tag, it should've been our task to enjoy or employ those mechanics responsibly. If that didn't happen (or won't happen), someone will have to take some measures to prevent us from trivializing low level content and altering some players' experience in a negative way, because, you know, there are people looking for other things than speed-clears and fast-farms in games).

So yeah, things need changed. MR gated public runs would be the fastest solution, but one that would segregate the community even more and potentially break the fun further (by having more players farming affinity to get to the better squads instead of enjoying the ride).

The AI and the enemy scaling are the two things that need to be looked at and updated to match the weapons, mods and frames of today. Contiuously adjusting the latters to fit a broken former will give no end of trouble.

Range doesn't need a nerf

[Bobmcq11]

I’ll keep my reply short and sweet- I’m not a fan of nerf’s. I came from a game where complainers ruined it in the name of “balance” (Destiny,) and now I see it happening here with Ember and Banshee. Now we are talking about a mod I paid 800p for back before Acolytes came back, and at the end of the day, I don’t understand why we need to nerf anything? I play a lot and I always want to use the most efficient setup possible. I don’t want to take 15 minutes to do a level 12 exterminate to earn a Nitain, and that seems to be the direction a lot of people would like to take this game.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I’m going to be very honest, and I did bring this up in another topic relevant to this one but I’ll elaborate on my experience with regards to Maiming Strike and Blood Rush from yesterday’s Sortie.

Yesterday’s Sortie 2 had Infested Mobile Defense with with Augmented Armor. I figured, alright, I guess I’ll take a look at this with the perspective of going pure crit with zero regard for Status. Brought a spin-2-win crit Guandao build with about +300% range total from a Riven (with a boost to crit damage and a nerf to Grineer faction damage). I used a Valkyr Prime with Steel Charge and a +269% Power Strength Eternal War build.

I tested the waters, and to say the least I absolutely struggled. Enemies were still standing around CCing and aggro’ing. I was meleeing and orange/red-critting all over the place but it didn’t feel effective in taking the enemies down. I wasn’t even robbing kills with my build either, since the adds were still ever present and I wasn’t taking them down even with my intense range and hitting around the 4 digit marks with my crits. I did come out as the highest damage dealer with the most kills, but from my PuG squad setup it was a CC team with no prerogative in add-clearing where I was the only member pushing for full-on dps.

To conclude, Crit doesn’t scale well and enemy armor scaling can be a huge defacto in taming crit levels. If you want to nerf Blood Rush, by all means go ahead. Maiming Strike, from how I tested, doesn’t seem to need the nerf that everyone is elaborating on. However, I’ll maintain my point that Status will forever be King when it comes to all things with Warframe’s damage mechanics. It’s when hybrid builds of both crit and status is when things can go wild, but with the way I see with Crit mechanics - it can only go so far by itself even with the MS+BR. It scales, but not up to inexorbitant levels of damage where a Status Condition Overload build can dominate.