PoE begs the question: Just how POWERFUL were the Orokin and Sentients at the height of the war?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Kaiju-sized bones of a Sentient many magnitudes GREATER than anything we can even comprehend fighting litter the plains landscape in defeat.

IN DEFEAT.

Looming in victory is the ever-present eye of the mightiest Orokin Sentry Tower we have ever seen, endlessly regenerating and immortal...that it should ever awaken and do what Sentries do.

Truly, we are children...playing at importance and power as we dot the landscape, eager to pretend on a grand scale with our destructive little toys. 

Is this why Ballas speaks the way he does?  Because he knows what we truly are?

Because he knows?  That Margulis' blindness was symbolic of  the blind love a mother has for her children and blinded FROM the truth?

That we are killers with faces of children, playing at being Gods, using toys that Ballas created out of love's promise and a need to deceive the executors into believing we were now a necessity to win the war rather than a threat?

Perhaps the Sacrifice is actually our innocence.

Ballas will show us how small we truly are...how much growing is needed to face the threats that are coming.

He will reveal that the fall of the Empire was HIS doing and that the Lotus...the Tenno...the fall of the Empire...were due to the power of his love for Margulis.

Because I see the Titans of a bygone era...be they ghosts or sleeping Giants, and I begin to ponder on the just how foolish and naive the "mighty" Tenno children really are...

[LightningsVengance]

so great that they needed to make warframes that continually get nerfed and [DE]layed

 

Spoiler

jk i love you DE

 

[BansheePrime]

I've got a simple answer for yah. Very.

[Kaotyke]

Me thinks they were like... Marvel/DC level if all we hear is true.

[NightmareT12]

Friendly reminder that it is the Tenno armed by the Orokin who defeated the Sentients.

[shootaman777]

Honestly, in the grand scheme of things, Tenno are nothing more than soldiers, adept at anti-personnel combat and covert sabotage.  Albeit, soldiers going through identity crises with immaturity issues being misled by a mother figure.  Tenno have the trump card of void energy, seemingly without limit, but it's only a trump card against Sentients and is heavily limited by the small amount of devices that were designed to control and modify this void energy to various purposes.  Plus, speaking realistically, we can only use abilities that DE thinks of and decides to implement, so even if we have an ever-evolving power capable of applications in every battlefield against every enemy, we only have what DE allows us to.  Now, more to the point of responding: 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Kaiju-sized bones of a Sentient many magnitudes GREATER than anything we can even comprehend fighting litter the plains landscape in defeat.

IN DEFEAT.

Looming in victory is the ever-present eye of the mightiest Orokin Sentry Tower we have ever seen, endlessly regenerating and immortal...that it should ever awaken and do what Sentries do.

Truly, we are children...playing at importance and power as we dot the landscape, eager to pretend on a grand scale with our destructive little toys. 

Is this why Ballas speaks the way he does?  Because he knows what we truly are?

Because he knows?  That Margulis' blindness was symbolic of  the blind love a mother has for her children and blinded FROM the truth?

That we are killers with faces of children, playing at being Gods, using toys that Ballas created out of love's promise and a need to deceive the executors into believing we were now a necessity to win the war rather than a threat?

Perhaps the Sacrifice is actually our innocence.

Ballas will show us how small we truly are...how much growing is needed to face the threats that are coming.

He will reveal that the fall of the Empire was HIS doing and that the Lotus...the Tenno...the fall of the Empire...were due to the power of his love for Margulis.

Because I see the Titans of a bygone era...be they ghosts or sleeping Giants, and I begin to ponder on the just how foolish and naive the "mighty" Tenno children really are...

Honestly, we've fought enemies of relatively comparable size.  Fomorians and the Jordas Golem, among others.  

Would the Orokin Sentry Tower ever be able to activate at its full strength, if it were to activate again?  It's been being harvested by the Ostrons for who knows how long.  The question, then, is if the Ostrons, or whoever they sell the Orokin Sentry Tower's pieces to, has the power of the Orokin Sentry Tower.  

That also raises the issue, of if the Quills are to be trusted.  I've always thought that the Quills were collecting Sentient cores to try and rebuild the Sentient that was broken and contained on/above the Plains of Eidolon, or to at least have that Sentient regain its consciousness.  It could be a trap originally laid by the Sentient, and the Unum being another name for the Sentient itself.  Hunhow pulled a similar trick, after all.  But that's a different topic.  

Controls to Orokin technology were locked behind genetic verification.  As can be seen in the Cephalon Simaris lore of Arid Eviscerators and Guardsmen.  

I'm more concerned that Ballas could activate the Orokin Sentry Tower, than concerned that he may expose us for what we are.  As an Executor, his genes gave him near top clearance.  

And if we defeat Ballas, if it comes down to that, could we take control of this Orokin technology?  What if we use a codex/Simaris scanner on him?  Will Cephalon Ordis/Simaris gain access to that Orokin technology?  

Also, why did Ballas wait until now to resurface?  

While we may be children, I believe that it was not Margulis who put us in this position, but Ballas, as you believe.  I believe that Ballas anticipated Margulis' actions, and captured a Sentient, Natah, partially performing Continuity on the Sentient for Margulis, leaving her consciousness semi-dormant in Natah, until he completed the Continuity on Natah/Margulis to finally revive Margulis.  

We've already had Space Mom, and now I think we're going to have Space Dad, who came back after stepping out to get some Space Cigarettes, years later.  Why else would Ballas go through all this trouble, if not for that?  

The coded Orokin message that sometimes appears during loading screens, as well as the Apostasy Prologue Quest have further convinced me of this.  Since it appears that Margulis was definitely put through the Continuity.  

Also, how else would Ballas have survived the Orokin purge, as referenced in the Cephalon Simaris Guardsman lore fragment, other than having a hand in it, himself?  I call it a purge, but it was more of an extermination of Orokin leadership.  

Personally, I think Ballas will be friendly, but make us prove ourselves worthy, first.  I agree that he'll be warning us of an incoming threat - the question remains; what's the threat?  

In this case, I'd love to finally finish the job and execute the Grineer Queens, once and for all.  It'd get rid of the last of Ballas' known remaining Orokin competition.  It would be very nice to finally finish them off, so I hope they're the 'threat'.  

 

We're not terribly mighty, we're just terribly efficient at the slaughter of grunt enemies, in large quantities.  

The only question I have, is if the Lotus lied to us when she said that our frail, Tenno bodies were the 'most powerful thing in the known universe'.  

Especially considering the fate of the original Mirage at the hands of the Sentients.  Mirage's Oro was somehow consumed, whatever that means.  Does this mean that her Operator died, killed through the Somatic link?  Did she fight as an Operator, in person?  I think it'd be important to keep track of and/or eliminate something that can actually pose a threat to us Tenno.  This is what I'd want to ask Ballas about.  

 

However, are they really from a 'bygone era'?  We're still dealing with Hunhow in our day and age.  The only question is, to what extent will that conflict escalate? 

Edited March 2, 2018 by shootaman777

[shootaman777]

3 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Friendly reminder that it is the Tenno armed by the Orokin who defeated the Sentients.

So we've heard.  But we've never been able to fight a Sentient at its full capacity to determine that this is the truth of the past.  Ordis can neither confirm nor deny, since it 'seems to have misplaced those memories'.  And the Lotus is MIA.  

Honestly, I'd just like to find and ask Hunhow about the details and be over with it.  

Edited March 2, 2018 by shootaman777

[NightmareT12]

6 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

So we've heard.  But we've never been able to fight a Sentient at its full capacity to determine that this is the truth of the past.  Ordis can neither confirm nor deny, since it 'seems to have misplaced those memories'.  And the Lotus is MIA.  

Honestly, I'd just like to find and ask Hunhow about the details and be over with it.  

Well

Quote

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend. Excalibur was the first.

- Orokin 'Warframe' Archives

Quote

Some have walked these desolate worlds while you have slept. Some like me. I remember what you did. I remember the day.

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to call out but only a strangled whisper escaped.

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

Now I hunt, dividing your numbers. Watching from that dark place, cataloging your sins, I am the ghost of retribution. You may forget but you are not innocent.

I'd dare say yes, we did.

[shootaman777]

"If you could trade, would you? Surely. But all miracles...require sacrifice. For their life... yours."

Ballas' words from The Sacrifice trailer.  

What are we trading?  Why are we trading?  Do we need to trade?  Do we need to trade due to a pressing issue?  

But more importantly, ARE we trading?  

There's one miracle we already know of, and it's that the Tenno didn't go insane from the Void's embrace.  That we came out with power.  Have we already made the sacrifice?  If so, then what have we sacrificed?  The family that went rabid and we killed?  Is it the other way around?  

Then again, there's a way to get around such a sacrifice.  Continuity into another body, and sacrifice yourself, in the form of your original body.  

Ugh, there's so much that we don't know, that every question just raises more questions, the answers to which raises even MORE questions.  

[shootaman777]

18 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Well

I'd dare say yes, we did.

The historical record says one thing, but history is written by the victor, or modified by the ones in charge.  That could even be propaganda that was designed to promote the Tenno to be accepted as weapons among the Orokin leadership.  

I know both of those bits of lore, one of the Stalker's codex entries and an Orokin Archive, and I wrote what I wrote in the context of having those in mind, since we may have fought in the war and provided the Orokin with the tool to win the war by modification of our Void abilities, but it is unknown whether we actually directly destroyed Sentients with our own two figurative hands.  

What I meant, was - do we have a tool, technology, or variant of our power strong and durable enough to directly engage a whole Sentient.  Imagine an immeasurably long fight against a vast army, that is also one.  Especially given that Mirage's Operator tried and failed, this is a concern that I have.  

How did we accomplish this?  Not 'did we accomplish this'.  

I'm unsure whether one of two options is true, or either of them, for that matter - that we provided the Orokin technology with the pow,er to fight Sentients and supported/defended that technology while it did its work, or that we were given technology, trained, fought, and succeeded.  

Edited March 2, 2018 by shootaman777

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

Honestly, in the grand scheme of things, Tenno are nothing more than soldiers, adept at anti-personnel combat and covert sabotage.  Albeit, soldiers going through identity crises with immaturity issues being misled by a mother figure.  Tenno have the trump card of void energy, seemingly without limit, but it's only a trump card against Sentients and is heavily limited by the small amount of devices that were designed to control and modify this void energy to various purposes.  Plus, speaking realistically, we can only use abilities that DE thinks of and decides to implement, so even if we have an ever-evolving power capable of applications in every battlefield against every enemy, we only have what DE allows us to.  Now, more to the point of responding: 

Honestly, we've fought enemies of relatively comparable size.  Fomorians and the Jordas Golem, among others.  

Would the Orokin Sentry Tower ever be able to activate at its full strength, if it were to activate again?  It's been being harvested by the Ostrons for who knows how long.  The question, then, is if the Ostrons, or whoever they sell the Orokin Sentry Tower's pieces to, has the power of the Orokin Sentry Tower.  

That also raises the issue, of if the Quills are to be trusted.  I've always thought that the Quills were collecting Sentient cores to try and rebuild the Sentient that was broken and contained on/above the Plains of Eidolon, or to at least have that Sentient regain its consciousness.  It could be a trap originally laid by the Sentient, and the Unum being another name for the Sentient itself.  Hunhow pulled a similar trick, after all.  But that's a different topic.  

Controls to Orokin technology were locked behind genetic verification.  As can be seen in the Cephalon Simaris lore of Arid Eviscerators and Guardsmen.  

I'm more concerned that Ballas could activate the Orokin Sentry Tower, than concerned that he may expose us for what we are.  As an Executor, his genes gave him near top clearance.  

And if we defeat Ballas, if it comes down to that, could we take control of this Orokin technology?  What if we use a codex/Simaris scanner on him?  Will Cephalon Ordis/Simaris gain access to that Orokin technology?  

Also, why did Ballas wait until now to resurface?  

While we may be children, I believe that it was not Margulis who put us in this position, but Ballas, as you believe.  I believe that Ballas anticipated Margulis' actions, and captured a Sentient, Natah, partially performing Continuity on the Sentient for Margulis, leaving her consciousness semi-dormant in Natah, until he completed the Continuity on Natah/Margulis to finally revive Margulis.  

We've already had Space Mom, and now I think we're going to have Space Dad, who came back after stepping out to get some Space Cigarettes, years later.  Why else would Ballas go through all this trouble, if not for that?  

The coded Orokin message that sometimes appears during loading screens, as well as the Apostasy Prologue Quest have further convinced me of this.  Since it appears that Margulis was definitely put through the Continuity.  

Also, how else would Ballas have survived the Orokin purge, as referenced in the Cephalon Simaris Guardsman lore fragment, other than having a hand in it, himself?  I call it a purge, but it was more of an extermination of Orokin leadership.  

Personally, I think Ballas will be friendly, but make us prove ourselves worthy, first.  I agree that he'll be warning us of an incoming threat - the question remains; what's the threat?  

In this case, I'd love to finally finish the job and execute the Grineer Queens, once and for all.  It'd get rid of the last of Ballas' known remaining Orokin competition.  It would be very nice to finally finish them off, so I hope they're the 'threat'.  

 

We're not terribly mighty, we're just terribly efficient at the slaughter of grunt enemies, in large quantities.  

The only question I have, is if the Lotus lied to us when she said that our frail, Tenno bodies were the 'most powerful thing in the known universe'.  

Especially considering the fate of the original Mirage at the hands of the Sentients.  Mirage's Oro was somehow consumed, whatever that means.  Does this mean that her Operator died, killed through the Somatic link?  Did she fight as an Operator, in person?  I think it'd be important to keep track of and/or eliminate something that can actually pose a threat to us Tenno.  This is what I'd want to ask Ballas about.  

 

However, are they really from a 'bygone era'?  We're still dealing with Hunhow in our day and age.  The only question is, to what extent will that conflict escalate? 

That tower?  I see a sleeping, sanitized version of THIS:

And those bones are just fragments.  The Jordas Golem is big, but when you see the Sentient concept art from the previous Tennocon and couple that with bone fragments of a sentient big enough to compete with THAT tower...I say yes, another era ended by a dark age we had a hand in precipitating before getting Rip Van Winkled.

How big IS that tower?

And what if...

Ballas on verification codes:

"Here you go.  Have fun my love."

Cue Ceremonial massacre and downfall of the Orokin Empire.

Edited March 2, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Firetempest]

That looming in the distance is the main body of the sentient that the original Gara sacrificed itself to kill. The leaders where basically living battlestars that launched and commanded invasion forces. The orokin tower would have likely been destroyed had it not been for Gara infiltrating and destroying it from the inside thus severing the collective conscience of its invasion force. I imagine the earth had hundreds of similar towers in a network like the towers of Lua but they were picked off one by one.

We never won, just pushed back enough to disable the gate choke point. Anything, including the Tenno were destroyed jumping into the sentients home system. That was enough of a victory for the Orokin.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Firetempest

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Another possible way of thinking is that the fight was not necessarily fair or head-on.

Many battles in real life and fiction have been won and loss over something unrelated to the strength of the winner or loser.

A simple example would be that Natah betrayed her kind and caused the power balance to shift.

Or that the Sentient made a costly mistake due to complacency or a rare semblance of emotion from Hunhow or whoever commanded them (if they can even get emotional).

Or that an as-of-yet-unknown plot device gave the Tennos a one-time-use power up or debuff to the sentients, similar to Bleach's final Getsuga Tenshou and Voldemort's final horcrux respectively.

The plot is still very much open to changes since DE has deliberately kept the plot vague and open to interpretation like Dark Souls.

Also, what we know of the Tennos are also based on hearsay and legends passed down by the inhabitants of the warframe universe, and we all know how "I fought off a robber in the alley last night" can become "this guy fought and killed 6 professional hitmen armed with machineguns with just his bare fists in the drug lord's turf a year ago".

Edited March 2, 2018 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Legion-Shields]

About the level of Kid Goku right before he drank the sacred water.

[SeaUrchins]

Yea, just think about all the lag and fps drops the Orokin must have experienced.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

18 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Me thinks they were like... Marvel/DC level if all we hear is true.

And they aren't now???? Lol

[Recel]

The thing that makes me sad when I think about it, is that lore wise the Sentients should be our match, if not more. But if once Sentient missions or even Tau gets implemented, we will most likely be slaughtering them by the thousands effortlessly.

And when you read the lore and such it just feels silly when bosses and opponents are written down as tough... while you just massacred them thirty times a day.

I can already see... "I am Hunhow. Sentient destroyer of wo..." *pop*  "Good job Tenno. Get to extraction."

[Kaotyke]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)supersocc11 said:

And they aren't now???? Lol

We dont have people who can destory planets by sneezing, lift mountains with their ****, go faster than the speed of time...

At least, we dont have it now. We have the equivalent of Super Spartans with Magic.

[Ragnarok160]

Warframe unfortunatly suffers from the same cliche as most other scifi games and movies " THERE WAS A RACE OF BEINGS SO POWERFUL, SO ADVANCE PAST OUR TIME THAT THEY ALL DIED" ohhhh ominous

[Kaotyke]

31 minutes ago, Ragnarok160 said:

Warframe unfortunatly suffers from the same cliche as most other scifi games and movies " THERE WAS A RACE OF BEINGS SO POWERFUL, SO ADVANCE PAST OUR TIME THAT THEY ALL DIED" ohhhh ominous

Except... its not.

We caused the fall of said civilization, not anything unkown.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

 We have the equivalent of Super Spartans with Magic.

I'm too lazy to go into detail why this statement is false, but it is very false. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

Except... its not.

We caused the fall of said civilization, not anything unkown.

If you go deeper, thematically it was the Orokin leadership's Hubris, Arrogance, and loss of humanity through pursuit of immortality that caused it.

Old Sci-Fi movies like "Forbidden Planet" in the 1950s DO deal with the concept of a very powerful race/civilization destroying itself.

It's a great movie that even lends itself to the theory that Stalker is a creation of Tenno subconscious transference, born of our EGO and traumatic emotions from endlessly fighting (Hate, Despair, Dread...a need to destroy Warframes).

Ultimately the Orokin were the instruments of their own destruction...a very common theme...sometimes presented as a sci-fi mystery thriller (aka the "unknown")

Edited March 2, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

5 hours ago, Recel said:

I can already see... "I am Hunhow. Sentient destroyer of wo..." *pop*  "Good job Tenno. Get to extraction."

"I am Hunhow." ..............<Invulnerablity Phase>............"Sentient Destroyer".............<invulnerability Phase>.............."of wo".....*pop*  "Good Job Tenno. Get to Extraction"

[__S0ck__]

On 3/1/2018 at 7:29 PM, shootaman777 said:

"If you could trade, would you? Surely. But all miracles...require sacrifice. For their life... yours."

Ballas' words from The Sacrifice trailer.  

What are we trading?  Why are we trading?  Do we need to trade?  Do we need to trade due to a pressing issue?  

But more importantly, ARE we trading?  

There's one miracle we already know of, and it's that the Tenno didn't go insane from the Void's embrace.  That we came out with power.  Have we already made the sacrifice?  If so, then what have we sacrificed?  The family that went rabid and we killed?  Is it the other way around?  

Then again, there's a way to get around such a sacrifice.  Continuity into another body, and sacrifice yourself, in the form of your original body.  

Ugh, there's so much that we don't know, that every question just raises more questions, the answers to which raises even MORE questions.  

I think he's talking to Margulis, saying she has to sacrifice herself for the lives of the Tenno.

[Sablesword]

On 3/1/2018 at 6:15 PM, shootaman777 said:

Would the Orokin Sentry Tower ever be able to activate at its full strength, if it were to activate again?  It's been being harvested by the Ostrons for who knows how long.  The question, then, is if the Ostrons, or whoever they sell the Orokin Sentry Tower's pieces to, has the power of the Orokin Sentry Tower.  

That also raises the issue, of if the Quills are to be trusted.  I've always thought that the Quills were collecting Sentient cores to try and rebuild the Sentient that was broken and contained on/above the Plains of Eidolon, or to at least have that Sentient regain its consciousness.  It could be a trap originally laid by the Sentient, and the Unum being another name for the Sentient itself.  Hunhow pulled a similar trick, after all.  But that's a different topic.  

The Unum is the tower, which is what the Sentient was trying to destroy, to get at the Unum's "temple kuva", which could apparently heal the Sentient's barrenness. Currently, the Unum instructs the Ostron on what parts of it to harvest while it regenerates other parts, providing a seemingly endless supply of resources. Read the Glass Fish lore fragments.