Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[MechaTails]

4 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

If it's a concern, everytime a thread like this pops up, just block the OP in game. Then the OP doesn't get matched with you, and won't need to worry about having all the fun and enjoyment taken away, and both parties get to play to their desires. Drastic, but until DE adds better matchmaking, I don't see any other simpler alternative.

It's always worth repeating, segregating ourselves is one of the best things we can do as a community when it comes to games like this.

Yes, use that Block list judiciously. I don't want to play with you and you don't want to play with me, our gaming philosophies are too different so we can never enjoy each other's company, so lets all Block each other.

There's no malice involved, we all just want a less stressful environment.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 36 minutes, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 a dit :

There.

Is.

No.

Perfect.

Balance.

In.

Warframe.

Simple as that. “Balance” is an egregious ideology that can never be fully achieved, like ideas of Perfection or Beauty commonly associated through human perspective.

Who said perfect balance? 

Of course perfection is impossible, but is that a reason to stop improving and balancing the game? Just because perfection is impossible, DE shouldn't have bothered improving the Beam weapon category? Reworked Zephyr? Added Captura features? Worked on Focus/Damage 2.5/3.0?

So yes, perfect balance is indeed not present in Warframe, but does that mean, in any way, that DE should forget their "egregious ideology that can never be fully acheived" of improving their game? No.

If you have no faith in humanity, that's your problem. You can say that we're doom to make the same mistakes forever or that kind of crap, but let me tell you one thing: DE isn't like that. They have faith in their game and community, otherwise they wouldn't have worked so hard on it for 5 years straight.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Blade_Wolf_16

[paixdamien]

I would love to see a cooldown on slide attacks

 

[Vindicus8235]

I'm not sure that increasing my block list from the 1 person that's currently on it up into the hundreds would be conducive to better gameplay, and even if it did work out that over time I'd never play with another slide attack spammer again, the core issue is still ignored. 

If DE added a weapon with a 500m radial insta-kill AoE I could also simply ignore anyone I encountered using that weapon, but the game would objectively be a worse game for having that, and ignore lists being the solution to avoiding encountering it.  Just to use an exaggerated version of what you're suggesting and why I'm not on board with that being any kind of a fix.

[Rawbeard]

don't like it, don't use it.

[lukinu_u]

Sadly, Maiming Strike and Riven with the said mod feature are worth a lot of plats, meaning they are a good way for DE to make money, like Riven themselves, so it won't change.

The easy solution to fix that would be to just apply Maiming Strike AFTER Blood Rush and other mods that add crit chance on combo, but as it's a way to make money, it won't change...

[sleepychewbacca]

Just now, Vindicus8235 said:

I'm not sure that increasing my block list from the 1 person that's currently on it up into the hundreds would be conducive to better gameplay, and even if it did work out that over time I'd never play with another slide attack spammer again, the core issue is still ignored. 

If DE added a weapon with a 500m radial insta-kill AoE I could also simply ignore anyone I encountered using that weapon, but the game would objectively be a worse game for having that, and ignore lists being the solution to avoiding encountering it.  Just to use an exaggerated version of what you're suggesting and why I'm not on board with that being any kind of a fix.

Yeah, I understand. 

In an ideal world, we would have an option to limit the type of players we play with in pubs, so those who want to run through missions as fast as possible, set the MR slider higher, and those who want to take their time, enjoy the level, etc would be able to set it to a playerbase they find acceptable. 

But as far as I am concerned, I am one of those players who use slide attacks a lot, especially when I'm farming for argon crystals, polymer bundles or etc, where I can just camp in a room, and slide against the direction where a mob spawns. Granted, I don't do this with pubs, as I prefer playing solo or with friends who know and accept my playstyle, but imo, a nerf would make farming less efficient, given how DE treated Ember, where she's no different at lower levels, but objectively worse at CC at higher levels. Not really solving the issue.  

[Vindicus8235]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

Sadly, Maiming Strike and Riven with the said mod feature are worth a lot of plats, meaning they are a good way for DE to make money, like Riven themselves, so it won't change.

The easy solution to fix that would be to just apply Maiming Strike AFTER Blood Rush and other mods that add crit chance on combo, but as it's a way to make money, it won't change...

I mean if their goal was making money via platinum purchases at the expense of game integrity they could always just add the aforementioned 500m insta-kill AoE weapon to the market for, say, 2000p.  They'd surely make tons of money off of that, but I have a hunch they care more about the stability of the game and aren't so myopic as to ever do such a thing.

[Reifnir]

I have a better idea.

How about every time anyone makes a "nerf <insert pretty much anything here>, it takes away my fun of tickling enemies to death" thread, they get locked out of posting anything on the forums and/or joining PUBLIC games for say, a week? I mean, that would make perfect sense to me, seeing how Warframe is, for the most part, a horde-slaying game where big part of the fun is making said horde-slaying efficient. Anyone who displays any effort to break that in the name of their kind of fun is a harmful entity that needs to be dealt with accordingly. 

On a slightly more serious note, you don't even need slide attacks to decimate everything everywhere before your typical newbie takes aim with his Paris MK-1. All it takes is a high-STR Volt, Harrow or Eternal War Valkyr - or even a Loki with Sprint Boost and a weapon with spammable wide-range combos. And a Primed Reach build with decent attack speed. Ever seen what a Primed Reach Galatine with Tempo Royale or a Crushing Ruin hammer can do with enough attack speed? 

Also, if you want a game where you are always average, fight average enemies and kill them at average speeds and where everybody is "equal", may I suggest giving Destiny 2 a try? Because Warframe is a different game after all. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Reifnir

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

20 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Who said perfect balance? 

Of course perfection is impossible, but is that a reason to stop improving and balancing the game? Just because perfection is impossible, DE shouldn't have bothered improving the Beam weapon category? Reworked Zephyr? Added Captura features? Worked on Focus/Damage 2.5/3.0?

So yes, perfect balance is indeed not present in Warframe, but does that mean, in any way, that DE should forget their "egregious ideology that can never be fully acheived" of improving their game? No.

If you have no faith in humanity, that's your problem. You can say that we're doom to make the same mistakes forever or that kind of crap, but let me tell you one thing: DE isn't like that. They have faith in their game and community, otherwise they wouldn't have worked so hard on it for 5 years straight.

I think Mel Brooks said it right in his movie “Robin Hood: Men in Tights”:

“A buff is a buff. A nerf is a nerf. If we get some buffs, we don’t need any nerfs.”

DE buffed beam weapons. They buffed Zephyr. Captura, buffed. The role of Operators in-game received buffs.

Also, I have faith in humanity. We are a destructive and self-destructive species governed by intellect and doubt, as deemed by Eden who first ate the fruit that fell off the tree of Knowledge and was seduced by the Snake. However, I don’t have any faith in nerfs, and the destruction that is employed by them. 

I’ll repeat again. Nerf one mechanic and another mechanic that people cry “exploit” will take its place, and people will complain about that and the chain continues. There will be no end to complaints and nerfs. We’ve all seen and witnessed this wild and exorbitant behavior from the community.

Maybe it’s time to accept your fellow man/woman or best be on your way.

Edited March 13, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[Vindicus8235]

4 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

I have a better idea.

How about every time anyone makes a "nerf <insert pretty much anything here>, it takes away my fun of tickling enemies to death" thread, they get locked out of posting anything on the forums and/or joining PUBLIC games for say, a week? I mean, that would make perfect sense to me, seeing how Warframe is, for the most part, a horde-slaying game where big part of the fun is making said horde-slaying efficient. Anyone who displays any effort to break that in the name of their kind of fun is a harmful entity that needs to be dealt with accordingly. 

On a slightly more serious note, you don't even need slide attacks to decimate everything everywhere before your typical newbie takes aim with his Paris MK-1. All it takes is a high-STR Volt, Harrow or Eternal War Valkyr - or even a Loki with Sprint Boost and a weapon with spammable wide-range combos. And a Primed Reach build with decent attack speed. Ever seen what a Primed Reach Galatine with Tempo Royale or a Crushing Ruin hammer can do with enough attack speed? 

Also, if you want a game where you are always average, fight average enemies and kill them at average speeds and where everybody is "equal", may I suggest giving Destiny 2 a try? Because Warframe is a different game after all. 

The problem is that you can apply this logic to any level of game breaking mechanic, such as the previously mentioned 500m aoe instant kill weapon.  Nothing you've stated here could not also apply to that hypothetical weapon, so would you have no problem with it existing? 

There will always be a power curve and some things will be lower on the curve and some higher, this is to be expected.  When something is many many times higher than everything else on the curve, it is an outlier, an anomaly, and should be addressed accordingly.  Such is currently the case with slide attack spam.

[Jim22]

why does this topic always come up it will end up being nerfed soon or not just wait.

[Voltage]

13 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

The problem is that you can apply this logic to any level of game breaking mechanic, such as the previously mentioned 500m aoe instant kill weapon.  Nothing you've stated here could not also apply to that hypothetical weapon, so would you have no problem with it existing? 

There will always be a power curve and some things will be lower on the curve and some higher, this is to be expected.  When something is many many times higher than everything else on the curve, it is an outlier, an anomaly, and should be addressed accordingly.  Such is currently the case with slide attack spam.

I see you keep mentioning a 500m AoE kill weapon. That exaggeration is a complete joke and doesn't hold any water. The largest AoE melee is the Scoliac with a very good riven reaching ~24 meters. Of course DE will reduce the disposition based on community usage at some point. I am not saying it will be tomorrow or even next month, but thinking that Scoliac will not be addressed in a game where Mag was made completely useless over an AoE pull ability is ignorant of precedent.

There will always be a most efficient method. If you hate people going as fast as possible, you need to change who you play with, which you have control over. Nerfing gear to cater to your play-style is exactly what this thread is asking for. Everyone who plays this game can agree a 500 meter instant kill weapon is ridiculous, but many players enjoy hitting the highest numbers whether it be Primed Chamber + perfect Lanka Riven for Eidolons, the highest range on a melee weapon, or the fastest Trial run.

There is no scenario where you can stop efficient players unless you remove them from the game. News flash: you can't.

Slide attacking is fine the way it is and could use minor tweaks, but all in all, it does not need a heavy nerf and end up like Telos Boltace, Ash, Mag, Saryn, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, and more.

Edited March 13, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[YsanneIsard]

Warframe is a game about min maxing and being able to blow up numbers in absurd ways. One of those ways happens to be slide criting. Slide attackers (I'm one of them) need to assemble several mods to achieve this style of play and one of those mods is very hard to come by. I actually rely on rivens with slide crit. But you need to assemble Slide crit + Range + Blood rush + Crit dmg/other damage mods and forma a weapon to take all of them. A bit of effort goes into doing one thing, slide criting (and murdering everything).

This is no different from people min maxing Mag/Ember/Volt/Banshee/MOST-warframes and clearing tile sets except that it's easier to notice and vilify min maxing on a weapon type than it is across different warframes. 

Also, how would you nerf slide attack? Mess with the crit formula? Maiming and bloodrush can be removed and a build that can still one shot sortie enemies can be made. Nerf the range? Slide two times instead of once. I would honestly like to know how this should be nerfed without completely ruining melee weapons.

The min max melee people shouldn't have to suffer.

Also, DE implemented a function for when something is completely ruining the game and taking all enjoyment out of it. It's called going to orbit with no penalty and with minimum down time between joining the next mission. It's what I do when I see Limbo (#DEplsdelete).

 

[Kimimoto]

I don't think crit on slide attack is OP, but the amount of crit Maiming gives is unbalanced. You only have to do one slide attack to hit red crits, I think it should be brought down to 40-50% chance. That way using any weapon getting a 3-3.5x multiplier will get you red crits, which means you actually have to build that damage up like normal melee.

I think it's fine to have those red crits on slide attack, but getting them so easily is overpowered.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 11 minutes, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 a dit :

I think Mel Brooks said it right in his movie “Robin Hood: Men in Tights”:

---

“A buff is a buff. A nerf is a nerf. If we get some buffs, we don’t need any nerfs.”

DE buffed beam weapons. They buffed Zephyr. Captura, buffed. The role of Operators in-game received buffs.

Also, I have faith in humanity. We are a destructive and self-destructive species governed by intellect and doubt, as deemed by Eden who first ate the fruit that fell off the tree of Knowledge and was seduced by the Snake. However, I don’t have any faith in nerfs, and the destruction that is employed by them. 

I’ll repeat again. Nerf one mechanic and another mechanic that people cry “exploit” will take its place, and people will complain about that and the chain continues. There will be no end to complaints and nerfs. We’ve all seen and witnessed this wild and exorbitant behavior from the community.

Maybe it’s time to accept your fellow man/woman or best be on your way.

Fine, you used a joke from Mel Brooks that has no relation whatsoever with the subject to try to give some value to your pov. Too bad I don't have any time to waste to find a good and unrelated joke from Spaceballs to make an argument like you tried to do.

Nerfs are part of balance, just like buffs. If you only buff things over and over again, it will still be unbalanced unless you buff everything in the game by the same amount so everything is at the same level of powercreep.

Tell me, what's the easiest way to balance a game:

-Buff everything in the game, including enemies, to the point on the Blood Rush+Maiming Strike+ High range weapon so everything is so op that nothing is op at all.

or

-Nerf one broken type of gameplay that people use to cheese and avoid playing the game just so they can get their rewards faster.

[Vindicus8235]

9 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I see you keep mentioning a 500m AoE kill weapon. That exaggeration is a complete joke and doesn't hold any water. The largest AoE melee is the Scoliac with a very good riven reaching ~24 meters. Of course DE will reduce the disposition based on community usage at some point. I am not saying it will be tomorrow or even next month, but thinking that Scoliac will not be addressed in a game where Mag was made completely useless over an AoE pull ability is ignorant of precedent.

There will always be a most efficient method. If you hate people going as fast as possible, you need to change who you play with, which you have control over. Nerfing gear to cater to your play-style is exactly what this thread is asking for. Everyone who plays this game can agree a 500 meter instant kill weapon is ridiculous, but many players enjoy hitting the highest numbers whether it be Primed Chamber + perfect Lanka Riven for Eidolons, the highest range on a melee weapon, or the fastest Trial run.

There is no scenario where you can stop efficient players unless you remove them from the game. News flash: you can't.

Slide attacking is fine the way it is and could use minor tweaks, but all in all, it does not need a heavy nerf and end up like Telos Boltace, Ash, Mag, Saryn, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, and more.

I stated that the 500m AoE weapon was an exaggeration the first time I mentioned it.  Please refer again to that post for clarification as to the goal of mindcrafting said weapon.

Reducing disposition on a few of the overused whips will not solve the problem.  It will slightly reduce their effectiveness but they're currently so over the top that even using them without a riven at all is broken.

I shouldn't be required to alter my play style, add people to block list or play solo at all times as you and others in this thread have suggested.  I'm not the outlier.  I'm playing the game as intended and within normal power confines.  Slide attackers are not.  They are playing an entirely different game, with an entirely different ruleset and trampling on everybody else as they do it.

Efficient play is great.  Especially in a game like Warframe, it's almost essential!  There must be some ceiling on efficiency though.  Is it ok for the #1 most efficient method of killing to be twice as powerful as the #2 method?  3 times as powerful?  5 times?  10?  How much more efficient than the #2 method is slide attack spam?  There are a lot of variables to consider but it's disingenuous to pretend like slide attack spam in its current form isn't a complete outlier.  If it wasn't so good, I doubt so many would be so passionately and vehemently trying to keep it the way it is.

Saying slide attacking is fine the way it is doesn't actually make it so, as I'm sure you're well aware.  Saying it's broken also doesn't make it so, as I'm well aware.  My argument is that there's more evidence to show that it is overpowered relative to other playstyles in the game than to show that it is in line.

[dEjAvU5566]

Said it thousand times before, "fun" is a subjective feeling.

I don't know why people keep describing and decide what is fun for others.

Playing PUG meaning everyone can have their way of progressing the mission, and how they like to achieve and have"fun" is very different.

Some have fun in PUG by doing all the cheesest method possible to get entertained.

Other may enjoy the mission by wasting all the time killing 1 eximus using 87-formaed Braton MKI.

You can say maiming strike is far more efficient than other weapon and need adjusting.

Just don't say "bring back fun for everyone" , it is not how everyone thinks.

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by dEjAvU5566
typo

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 30 minutes, --Q--Voltage a dit :

Slide attacking is fine the way it is and could use minor tweaks, but all in all, it does not need a heavy nerf and end up like Telos Boltace, Ash, Mag, Saryn, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, and more.

Please, remove Mag from this. She's better now than she ever was, without spam nor 1-sec-room-cleaning gimmick, yet incredibly good.

Ash was a Press-4-to-win with his old Bladestorm, and even if it was indeed a nerf, at least he's not as bad as he was broken.

Telos Boltace were just another Spin-2-win crap and was nerfed because it was game breaking, just like what we are talking about right now, in this thread. 

If Saryn's Spore was nerfed (I don't use her so I never noticed), then that's a good thing too. People would litteraly sit still, cast Molt, then spam spores and some weapn like the Ignis to make them spread. Brainless gameplay at it's finest.

The Synoid Simulor, paired with Mirage, was one of the worst thing to ever happen in Warframe, both in terms of gameplay and visual/auditive annoyance. 

 

Don't forget why those things were nerfed, Voltage. The MS+BR+High Ranged Melees is just as bad if not worst in some cases and no, you'll not force me to play solo or with inexistant friends (because some people don't have friends who play Warframe, you know?) everytime I want to do a mission just so I can ignore the problem. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Blade_Wolf_16

[XaoGarrent]

1 hour ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I see there are quite a few eager to defend the enormous stature of the slide attack spam.  This is a sure sign that it's incredibly broken as outlined here and in numerous other threads.  I've only been playing for a few months now and have seen DE handle things that break the game quite nicely. 

I'm very excited to see slide attack spam brought into check so the game will be more enjoyable for everyone just trying to have a good time, and not just 1 out of 4 players on the team spamming slides.  100% enjoyment is a pipe dream, but 25% of the team having a good time can definitely be improved upon!

This is the definition of tortured logic. You are a hair's width away from kafkatrapping with this, which honestly says more about you and your position than anything else.

[Vindicus8235]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

This is the definition of tortured logic. You are a hair's width away from kafkatrapping with this, which honestly says more about you and your position than anything else.

I've played enough games and perused enough gaming forums to know when and why people come out in droves to defend something so specific as slide attack spam.  Hint:  It's not because it's fun, awesome or the most enjoyable mechanic they've ever encountered in a game.  I imagine you can figure out the true motives given some thought.  If you feel I was trying to instill a sense of guilt for defending such an unabashedly broken mechanic then you're not too far from the truth.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

16 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Tell me, what's the easiest way to balance a game: Sure.

-Buff everything in the game, including enemies, to the point on the Blood Rush+Maiming Strike+ High range weapon so everything is so op that nothing is op at all.

Great, it gives me something to do. I don’t even need to rely on Maiming Strike + Blood Rush to go endless anyway, and buffs are fun and interactive. Example: The recent weapon balance pass to primaries and secondaries, excluding beam weapons rework.

or

-Nerf one broken type of gameplay that people use to cheese and avoid playing the game just so they can get their rewards faster.

That’s a kill-joy. Nerfs are kill-joys. Why be a kill-joy? Why take away fun? Why nerf concepts, mechanics, build variety/synergy and push players away from playing the game if they find a certain build variation/synergy fun?

Obviously, without saying anything, this post was presented with a logical restriction between two extremes as a form of an argumentative trap. However, the key word is in the 8th word in your post (maybe 9th): Balance. And I’ve said it before, there’s no perfect balance. Balance is an imaginative construct in the form of implementive hubris.

Efficient play will always be a dominant factor in Warframe, and there is no avoiding efficient play when it gets the job (RNG/gameplay grind) faster. 

Warframe is a paradise of min-maxers. And I’ll say it again, nerf one mechanic and another mechanic will take its place. It’s an endless cycle.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I've played enough games and perused enough gaming forums to know when and why people come out in droves to defend something so specific as slide attack spam.  Hint:  It's not because it's fun, awesome or the most enjoyable mechanic they've ever encountered in a game.  I imagine you can figure out the true motives given some thought.  If you feel I was trying to instill a sense of guilt for defending such an unabashedly broken mechanic then you're not too far from the truth.

I've lived on the earth long enough and perused enough science forums to know when and why people come out in droves to defend something so specific as the earth being round. Hint: It's not because it's round, orbiting or orbited by the other clearly spherical objects. I imagine you can figure out the true motives given some thought. If you feel I was trying to instill some sense of guilt for propagating such unabashedly propagandist round earth propaganda then you're not too far from the truth.

[Vindicus8235]

On 3/12/2018 at 10:56 PM, XaoGarrent said:

I've lived on the earth long enough and perused enough science forums to know when and why people come out in droves to defend something so specific as the earth being round. Hint: It's not because it's round, orbiting or orbited by the other clearly spherical objects. I imagine you can figure out the true motives given some thought. If you feel I was trying to instill some sense of guilt for propagating such unabashedly propagandist round earth propaganda then you're not too far from the truth.

I've been saying this for years.

Jokes aside though, where's your actual counter argument?  We can flip words and play with semantics all day long, but I'd rather not derail my own thread. 

Slide attack spam is superior to all other playstyles for most activities in Warframe.  Source:  Observable gameplay

Make me a short list of things that trump slide attack spam if you would.  I'd love to be proven wrong.  I'm very interested, legitimately.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Vindicus8235

[drup33]

For me the actual problem isnt the maiming strike itself cause in the end, on the high level, maiming strike is only a waste of mod slot, blood rush and condition overload is much more effective and im aware theres riven mod with crit chance increase when slide. In my opinion the problem is range itself cause u can clean up a horde of enemy with just one slide. Why not make it like this, maiming strike can only active when the enemy touch the "melee weapon" itself (cause u know with range mod u can kill them without the weapon touching them) like how excalibur exalted blade where it can only stack bloodrush when u kill enemy with the blade instead the flying light thingy

Edited March 13, 2018 by drup33