Khora's Planned Changes

[Kappa64]

1 hour ago, RedToothKaki said:

Do you even have Khora? Have you even used her? There's nothing underpowered about her, infact she's sitting in just the right spot. 

Also, 201 seconds is too long.

Ok, Gara has 90% damage reduction. What else can she do? Oh right, use her 2 on herself then have to spam 4 to keep it up and have its damage scale. or alternatively use her 3 and wait for enemies to break the mirrors while you're within a meter of them for her 2 to scale.

Yeah DE will acknowledge it when everyone drops the frame. By then they'll just make it even more useless. Mass vitrify for example, breakable segments. cool. full power strength build. only does 200 damage to lv 20s. maybe 30 damage to level 50s. Oh, it now scales whenever you cover an enemy in glass. Awesome, so in order for me to have a reliable defense with this frame I have to wait until there's 100+ bombards around me that are lv 100. If you had Khora, you would know why everyone is voicing their opinions and why mostly a lot of people don't like the change for venari.

Also, Khora isn't getting buffed idiot. If you played her you would know. Her 2nd ability is getting nerfed. Right now it constantly pulls enemies in until the duration is done. Whether or not the enemy is "awake". They're changing it to where it pulls in a group of enemies once -- then twice -- then it won't do anything else. That right there, is a minor nerf. Her first ability is just getting a visual upgrade -- FX. Her 4th ability, same thing. though it will actually drop the dead bodies.

Like I said before, there's nothing underpowered about Khora. You probably just suck at the game. And she's not really getting any buffs, just nerfs imo. 

Also, you might want to look at a dictionary. js

Oh but, the buff with whipclaw benefiting from the combo counter. It's good but nothing too special to write home about since it kinda already did great damage to begin with. But atleast it will be able to have some form of scaling damage as long as you're going all melee, which a lot of players don't really do in normal missions. Realistically you would only go full melee in a survival maybe, the new game mode sanctuary onslaught, sorties, defense missions (i.e. Hydron, Sedna) but that's really just about it.

However, whipclaw wasn't the main attraction point of Khora, her kavat is. which was the main topic of my previous post if you had the knowledge to read it. Mabye you would have figured out what "bait and switch" means too. 

Yes, I have actually played her. I have 3 forma on her and 6 forma on Venari. 

And her 2 is bugged right now, but of course you wouldn't notice. 

Also since you seem unaware, casting Gara's 1 on her 4 makes it explode, dealing damage to enemies nearby. That's also ignoring how good her 1 is already, so long as you sweep it. 

Let's go through each problem Khora has, shall we?

1. Doesn't contribute to the combo counter, although it gains it's benefits already (but you didn't notice)

2. The duration doesn't work, and enemies wake up and stop pulling instantly as soon as someone procs them, or even kills them. It's the single slowest form of hard cc I've ever seen.

3. Venari does impact damage, has a damage mode that makes him attack 1 enemy at a time with an attack, a defense mode that disarms people sometimes and healing that doesn't scale.

4. Grabs enemies, but what then? Can only grab so many, and trying to hit them at times can be laborious.

Oh but 201 seconds on Venari is OP. Alright buddy. 

By your definition of OP, yeah it's a bait and switch, because all you must do is level 30 and below.

[WyrdHiroya]

The biggest problem is losing sight of the theme
Is she a beast master? Trap master?
Is it the Lord of the beast or just a hunter?

[Iv99an19]

Instead of forcing players to commit suicide to bring back a cat just so her kit is complete instead of being left with one completely useless ability at the mid-late game, why not just

1. remove the energy cost for swapping mode: this is equivalent to having to pay someone at dinner just so you can swap between a spoon, fork and knife with no refund once you're done

2. instead of the cat straight up dying, have her instead remain down with no revive time limit, but she cannot be revived by normal means, instead khora must use a fair amount of energy to revive the cat, giving it temporary invulnerability and forcing it back to khora's side

[HanShotFirst]

Probably already been asked, but will we ever be able to equip alternative Kavat skins and armor sets for Venari? Muh fashion frame has needs!

[mouseodoom]

On 4/23/2018 at 6:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

When she dies, she will be revived when you Revive (*it's very likely you'll have the opportunity to revive Venari like other companions, but in the event you miss that window it'll be gone until you revive)

Gods, I hope they pull back on this. Nothing would make me walk away from Khora for good faster than knowing I will lose 25% of my powers if I fail to find/revive my *ing pet. This is... gods the worst change to this frame. 

I would rather you leave this the heck alone than make me revive one of my frame powers when (not if, when) it dies. At least if Venari dies now, I have a recourse that is really simple and sensible: resummon. 

Dying (or honestly, chasing the stupid thing around to revive her) to get my pet back really will make me set this frame aside.

The sad thing is that I like Khora, even now without the rest of these changes. And except for this, which I hate, I like everything else DE is planning to do with her.

[RazorHowl]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

khora is very sturdy. ways you can make it to bleedout allies are to use operator mode and just void dash to them. venari doesnt stray far from khora anyway and teleports to you when you get to far just like kavats and kubrow. bleedout is a non issue with loyal companion.

its like all of a sudden you want kavats and kubrow to have some different kind of revive mechanic when they already survive better than sentinels who have no bleedout.

No, what I want is for Khora to not lose access to one of her four powers due to the current in game mechanics.

I'm not asking for all pets to be changed. I'm asking for Venari to be able to be recalled, resummoned, revived, by recasting the power if Venari dies. 

I'm aware of the -ways- to avoid your pet from bleeding out. But it is counter-productive to demand people mod Venari solely to avoid LOSING her as a power in the event she dies. It's not about avoiding the bleedout or cheesing the system. It's about avoiding a frame losing one of their powers until they suicide and revive. 

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, RazorHowl said:

No, what I want is for Khora to not lose access to one of her four powers due to the current in game mechanics.

I'm not asking for all pets to be changed. I'm asking for Venari to be able to be recalled, resummoned, revived, by recasting the power if Venari dies. 

I'm aware of the -ways- to avoid your pet from bleeding out. But it is counter-productive to demand people mod Venari solely to avoid LOSING her as a power in the event she dies. It's not about avoiding the bleedout or cheesing the system. It's about avoiding a frame losing one of their powers until they suicide and revive. 

the power will be her mode switch. you should be treating her like a permanent kavat anyway since she builds like one (uses forma, uses mods) and moves like one. lose modding capability to make her recastable or require 1 bleedout mod. and have high customizability

[RazorHowl]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the power will be her mode switch. you should be treating her like a permanent kavat anyway since she builds like one and moves like one. lose modding capability to make her recastable or require 1 bleedout mod. and have high customizability

... Are you purposefully missing my point? 

With these proposed changes, THERE IS A POSSIBILITY for Khora to LOSE ACCESS TO ONE OF HER POWERS. 

The how or why of Venari dying is moot. The point is the possibility.

Bolded and capitalized for clarity. 

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, RazorHowl said:

... Are you purposefully missing my point? 

With these proposed changes, THERE IS A POSSIBILITY for Khora to LOSE ACCESS TO ONE OF HER POWERS. 

The how or why of Venari dying is moot. The point is the possibility.

Bolded and capitalized for clarity. 

again its going to have a cost. since its a passive. you either chose to have her as a power with no customization apart from mode change can be resummoned, or you get customization that allows death of the pet to be a non issue. permanent pets have to follow the same rules. temporary pets are not moddable.

[RazorHowl]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

again its going to have a cost. since its a passive. you either chose to have her as a power with no customization apart from mode change or you get customization that allows death of the pet to be a non issue.

You are entirely ignoring the points I made in favor of dismissing my argument overall. This is pointless. 

[EinheriarJudith]

7 minutes ago, RazorHowl said:

You are entirely ignoring the points I made in favor of dismissing my argument overall. This is pointless. 

im not dismissing anything. can you use a skill to revive a kavat or kubrow or sentinel? nope. venari is a kavat. you not treating it as one does not change the fact that it is a kavat and being a kavat has to follow the same rules they do. bleedout, then death. we have mods to overly extend bleedout for pets if you cant be bothered to res your kavat on the chance it may go down. you deserve to lose it. the power is based off of venari and does not whatsoever impact khoras overall performance.

[shinkido]

32 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

im not dismissing anything. can you use a skill to revive a kavat or kubrow or sentinel? nope. venari is a kavat. you not treating it as one does not change the fact that it is a kavat and being a kavat has to follow the same rules they do. bleedout, then death. we have mods to overly extend bleedout for pets if you cant be bothered to res your kavat on the chance it may go down. you deserve to lose it. the power is based off of venari and does not whatsoever impact khoras overall performance.

venari is NOT a normal kavat. venari is an ABILITY and the thought of losing an ABILITY because it DIES and CANT be RECAST unless YOU DIE, is STUPID.  so what if NORMAL kavats or kubrows don't have a skill to revive them. they are NORMAL, OPTIONAL and NOT AN ABILITY that is TIED TO KHORA.  so trying to make the comparison between the two and say they are the same, and by extension there shouldn't be an ability to bring venari back, is flawed logic.

[EinheriarJudith]

17 minutes ago, shinkido said:

venari is NOT a normal kavat. venari is an ABILITY and the thought of losing an ABILITY because it DIES and CANT be RECAST unless YOU DIE, is STUPID.  so what if NORMAL kavats or kubrows don't have a skill to revive them. they are NORMAL and NOT AN ABILITY that is TIED TO KHORA.  so trying to make the comparison between the two and say they are the same, and by extension there shouldn't be an ability to bring venari back, is flawed logic.

actually i said make a decision. you aren't going to get full customizability without a drawback, venari as we have it now has a duration making it a limited time pet. once the patch drops she will become permanent. and the drawback is? all that power has to cost something and im pretty sure her stance are gonna get a pretty good buff so..... maybe they will add switching to heal mode reforms venari draining energy until she is resummoned. who knows but fact is permanent pets follow the same rules regardless ignore it if you like. its what some people do here anyway im not surpised.

[LuckyCharm]

I'm looking forward to the proposed changes, but a few things I would like to note from my playing her so far : 

So far for me I've rather enjoyed her abilities. All except strangledome. With my current build focused on keeping venari alive and healthy, there really is not much room to make this ability better. You generally need to run survivability mods with khora, thanks to pets all having their HP and other stats linked directly to your own which causes issues with trying to actually mod for other stats to improve her powers. I feel like this ability generally needs a better base duration or range, since it doesn't do a fantastic job with how little it actually stops enemies thanks to how short/small it is. It would also be very nice if enemies hit by it could get some sort of Glow so you know which enemies to slap with your whip once the changes come out. 

 

[shinkido]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

actually i said make a decision. you aren't going to get full customizability without a drawback, venari as we have it now has a duration making it a limited time pet. once the patch drops she will become permanent. and the drawback is? all that power has to cost something and im pretty sure her stance are gonna get a pretty good buff so..... maybe they will add switching to heal mode reforms venari draining energy until she is resummoned. who knows but fact is permanent pets follow the same rules regardless ignore it if you like. its what some people do here anyway im not surpised.

right now she is infinitely recastable, which i like, as the time she is there is long and decent. but when the changes go threw of making her a permanent passive . you should not need to sacrafice mod slots for bleedout. there dose not need to be a drawback. as venari is not very strong in the first place in my experience in the first place. switching modes costing energy sucks to  think about. and i dont see them giving the kavat any big buffs. i could and hope i am wrong but i don't see it.  if venari can be revived/recast after dieing with the 3 at the cost of energy. i wont mind in the slightest..unless the energy cost is around 125 or more.

as for your little mention about permanent pets. i belive venari should follow diffrent rules because she will be ACTUALLY permanent for khora. normal kavats kubrows and sentinals, are all optional and can be unequipped at any time in arsenal but venari to khora will always be there, as the first true permanent pet in the game (unless you count the infested room and ordis as pets) . that being the case, gives venari reason to be revivable unlike other pets.  if she can be revived/recast after the move to passive. i will not lament the switch.  if the mode shifts gain an energy cost but are not buffed at all, i will be mad about that specifically instead of the swap to passive.   all i can say now at this point is.

i hope DE dose keep venari recastable after death, at a minimum

[safitorius]

9 часов назад, Kappa64 сказал:

1. We don't even know what all of the changes are going to be, and yet you just assume they're nerfing her. Literally everything they've mentioned is nothing but buffs, and have Venari not tied to duration is quite possibly the best one. I have no idea why you seem to think "Oh 201 seconds is too long, and no duration at all is just unacceptable!" Oh boo hoo you have to use bleedout mods on Venari, if it's really that bad. You have 2 forms of CC and a high damage 1 that, all together, can lock down an area with these changes, so reviving Venari isn't going to be some laborious task that's going to be virtually impossible. 

2. Gara has a 90% damage reduction and a near infinite scaling ability that lets her just saunter into enemies to kill them. How in the world does she suck at offense? Not to mention that her wall being unbreakable was just ridiculous; If she had stayed the same way she was pre-nerf, you'd be here complaining about Frost being bad because Gara exists and does everything better. Just catch like 4-5 enemies in your 4 and it stays up long enough to do what you need to do.

3. Everyone is voicing their concern over Venari's death, and even though it's not remotely a problem (see above), I'm sure DE will acknowledge it in some way, shape or form. 

4. If releasing an incredibly underpowered frame and buffing it a week later is somehow a "bait and switch" then you need a reality check. People that bought her day 1 (myself included) had no way of knowing how underpowered she would be, but people that are farming her through onslaught would have read by now that she's not that great. If they had released her in some incredibly overpowered state, and then nerfed her into what she is now, then yes, outrage all you want, but at the moment this is just what happens with most frames nowadays, and Khora is just an extreme case. If you don't believe me, here's a list of frames that were not very ideal on release: 

Atlas, Harrow, Titania, Gara, Oberon, Valkyr and Mesa ("Carpal Tunnel, The Frame" for a while)

Khora is arguably in a worst state than any of these frames have been in, and passing such judgement on buffs before they're even official is just childish.

   

Yes, it was frames which were not very good at the time of their release, but to say that the Valkyrie was not in the moment of its appearance... At the time of its release (Valkyrie) she was one of the most desirable frames! Now it is practically not practical. Her colossal armor is no longer relevant and therefore all use the Valkyrie as a tank from its ultimate ability. That can be easily replaced by other frames and get more profit from the relevance and usefulness of the rest of the set of skills! So Valkyrie is an example of frame degradation, not her progress.
What about Titania. It was not very practical at its appearance and not in a week not in a year, developers didn't make essential changes that to make Titania more useful. The chance to meet Titania in a mission of 5-10%. Since its failure gaming community has taken as a given!
The Atlas, Oberon and the Hydroid had significant processing in the positive direction. Harrow has not undergone major changes and its relevance as a support is easily interchangeable. Nerf Gara was the right decision... But Khora to kill at the start it was a bad decision.

[Al3xusLov3]

Do you plan on making it to where the parts do drop so those of us who don't buy everything can get the pieces and craft Khora? Its only so many times you can go and go and just get a lot of useless relics you don't want nor need. Instead of getting the dumb relics I'd rather the game keeps migitating and making me lose the junk. Not like you ever gonna fix that anyway.

[Kappa64]

14 minutes ago, safitorius said:

Yes, it was frames which were not very good at the time of their release, but to say that the Valkyrie was not in the moment of its appearance... At the time of its release (Valkyrie) she was one of the most desirable frames! Now it is practically not practical. Her colossal armor is no longer relevant and therefore all use the Valkyrie as a tank from its ultimate ability. That can be easily replaced by other frames and get more profit from the relevance and usefulness of the rest of the set of skills! So Valkyrie is an example of frame degradation, not her progress.
What about Titania. It was not very practical at its appearance and not in a week not in a year, developers didn't make essential changes that to make Titania more useful. The chance to meet Titania in a mission of 5-10%. Since its failure gaming community has taken as a given!
The Atlas, Oberon and the Hydroid had significant processing in the positive direction. Harrow has not undergone major changes and its relevance as a support is easily interchangeable. Nerf Gara was the right decision... But Khora to kill at the start it was a bad decision.

When Valkyr was first released she had 200 armor and did not have melee mod scaling on her 4. She was strong, but had those issues. And Titania was increddddddddddddddddddddibly slow in her archwing mode on release, which isn't particularly super bad, but was certainly a point of contention with some people.

[(NSW)-Kenneth-]

When I heard you guys were reworking Khora, I had my doubts until I saw what the plans were. I thought you guys were going to ruin her, but you're not so great job. And keep with what you're saying and DON'T remove her Strangledome. It's a great skill. CCs, causes mobs to take more damage, and they taunt former allies into attacking them. Greatest thing I've seen with it so far was in High Risk Index when Lockjaw And Sol killed an M-WAM caught in my dome I had up to prevent them from turning it. Was hilarious. And for everyone complaining about her Dome ragdolling mobs, I have this to say; "Git gud, scrub". You not being able to aim for S#&$ doesn't make her 4 bad. I've not had a SINGLE issue using any of her skills so maybe it's YOU, not her.

[Neptlude]

Anyone else want to keep duration based Venari, over perm Venari?

[shinkido]

1 minute ago, Neptlude said:

Anyone else want to keep duration based Venari, over perm Venari?

honestly me but maby a buff to duration or to damage

[(NSW)-Kenneth-]

1 minute ago, Neptlude said:

Anyone else want to keep duration based Venari, over perm Venari?

I would, but kind of doubt. Because as an ability, if you fall off a map and Venari is out, then she despawns and you have to summon her again. Duration is nice, but her being a passive means no more despawning lol

 

[safitorius]

2 минуты назад, Kappa64 сказал:

When Valkyr was first released she had 200 armor and did not have melee mod scaling on her 4. She was strong, but had those issues.

But at the time it was DIVINE! When her armor was missing for most of the crazy schemes. Over time many game changes, new enemies and new types of complexity of passing of missions were added! And the relevance of the Valkyries were lost. And 200 armor before her was more tangible and useful than it is now 700!

 

[Neptlude]

1 minute ago, --Kenneth-- said:

I would, but kind of doubt. Because as an ability, if you fall off a map and Venari is out, then she despawns and you have to summon her again. Duration is nice, but her being a passive means no more despawning lol

 

also mean ye will need to kill yerself when she dies...

[(NSW)-Kenneth-]

1 minute ago, Neptlude said:

also mean ye will need to kill yerself when she dies...

For Venari, I'd die 1000 times.