Is Onslaught and Khora Blueprints Acquisition DE's worst move yet?

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

It is my opinion that de doesn’t want us to farm warframes any more. They want us to buy them.  We will have them awhile then they will nerf the hell out of them so we will buy the next one that they won’t let us get by farming. Good going de but I’ve figured you out 

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

Bottom line, if the maths/probability feels wrong, it must be wrong. Screw all your referenced explanations and so on. #stupidmaths

[(PSN)flowage97]

Am 28.4.2018 um 16:46 schrieb MickThejaguar:

I've played this game mode maybe 5 times and the only piece of her I'm missing is her main blueprint. If you want awful implementation, I'd like to remind you that before Update 19.0 Nezha pieces used to drop from sortie missions. You know, those things you can only do once a day. Ivara's pieces still drop as random rewards from spy missions. And getting Saryn from Kela De Thaym is now the highest grade of tedium. I think Khora's fine compared to these.

Don't forget Trin and Ambulas xD

Edited June 5, 2018 by (PS4)FTCH97

[viperveteran]

Finished my set today. I played one mission a day occasionally since release sometimes two missions.

I understand that DE makes the drop rates the way they have so that the content will last until the next update so that players aren't bored. Now that I have just obtained Khora the sacrifice is about to be released.

If you want it straight away just buy it and make the plat back before the next update. It is easier than grinding for it.

 

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

2 hours ago, viperveteran said:

I understand that DE makes the drop rates the way they have so that the content will last until the next update so that players aren't bored.

Yeah, that worked a treat.

[CupcakesMoo]

Seeing how onslaught is essentially a nerf trap, useless for anything else besides khora. I thought it was a bad idea, bordering on straight up cheating. I can just play survival for an hour or two to get to the nonsense stages.  Khora blueprint drop rates seems like regular fare for warframe which we need to remember is running a freemium game. They have to get money somehow and actual investors like me don't exactly grow on trees. Full disclosure the point is to make you want to spend your money or you can just farm for the pieces. 

I straight up bought khora as soon as she came out and I don't see a problem with her especially on survival when I can just cage while I activate life support. 

[Educated_Beast]

3 hours ago, CupcakesMoo said:

Seeing how onslaught is essentially a nerf trap, useless for anything else besides khora. I thought it was a bad idea, bordering on straight up cheating. I can just play survival for an hour or two to get to the nonsense stages.  Khora blueprint drop rates seems like regular fare for warframe which we need to remember is running a freemium game. They have to get money somehow and actual investors like me don't exactly grow on trees. Full disclosure the point is to make you want to spend your money or you can just farm for the pieces. 

I straight up bought khora as soon as she came out and I don't see a problem with her especially on survival when I can just cage while I activate life support. 

Here is the thing, I do buy platinum and have numerous times.  This level of grind doesn't encourage me to buy Khora.  This kind of grind makes me want to quit Warframe and give up on developers.  

I have farmed every frame (MR25) and been trying this one to since release date.  My biggest danger is falling asleep while playing.  

I'm pissed they put this in normal when I want to play elite but cannot.  Yes I have the plat but I won't buy it.  Forcing my hand to buy is going to force me out of the game.  

I liked DE when they created fun, this have moved past fun into addiction required to play.  DE is better than this but they are giving into the mobile game addition Skinner box method of game creation.  

It's the principal.  I won't buy it because I bought plat for slots, loadouts, cosmetics, trades, etc.  What I felt was fair.  

These droprates are not fair and a slap in face to players who support thier game and write good reviews.  Khora is orders of magnitude harder than any other frame to farm for.  That includes Mesa locked by keys, harrow, limbo with archwing, equinox, any boss like saryn you can speedrun, etc.  I've done them all; Khora is the worst by an order of magnitude.  If you got lucky, good for you, but us statistical outliers are giving up.

I'm sure DE can go on without me, but I'm a 4 year old customer that is giving up.  I guess the new addicted customers are worth more than the loyal ones who have been around for years.  

 

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

You hit the nail on the head beast

[Silverdagger23]

12 days farming khora in the simaris mission and here is what i end up with 

i thought systems and bp had the same droprate but i guess something strange is happening here or i and my whole clan are just THAT unlucky

Edited June 12, 2018 by Silverdagger23

[DoomFruit]

I don't know about the drop rates, because I can't actually complete the damn mission. I don't know whether it's because I'm doing it solo or whether it's because DE are terrified of the idea of people using anything other than maximum nuke sporyn in their game (I use loki or ash and get most of my kills with a lesion or a tonbo), but the life support timer drains WAY too fast for me to be able to keep up, even though I'm butchering everything I see in a few hits once I get the combo multiplier up. And this was pretty consistent across all of my attempted runs. Some tiles seemed relatively OK, but others were utterly atrocious, meaning that I could not manage a single C rotation.

This is a complete progression stopper and was so easily repeatable that there's no way it would have gotten past their testing. The logical conclusion is therefore that they deliberately made onslaught into this abomination. I don't know why this is the case, but I don't care any more. Being given trash instead of a reward because of RNG at the end of the mission is one thing, but being denied the mission itself due to another layer of RNG is unacceptable. Just thinking about it gets me angry, even now, and so the best option for me is to just forget that the game mode and the frame even existed in the first place.

My mentality is that of the collector, and I've tried to get everything in the game (barring some of the founder items which I can never see). That took a heavy blow when alertium was introduced (it is utterly unacceptable for an entertainment activity to dictate my free time by requiring me to drop whatever it is that I'm doing with no notice in order to make progress), but only cracked once the hema came out - something which I flat out refuse to touch in any manner. And once you break your patterns and deliberately forego one item, it suddenly gets a lot easier to avoid others. Zaws and amps are the next case - it turns out that getting the mastery XP isn't just from levelling them to 30, but you have to then grind a bit more standing and some semi-rare resources in order to pay for the privilege of grinding them to 30 again just to get the XP for a mediocre weapon that I'm not going to use again. I'm never building another. The crack in the armour widens.

And now this. I'm still furious at this game mode even after not having even looked at it for weeks, after having seen absolutely nothing in the patch notes about making it actually completable. First impressions have a disproportionately high impact, something which is only amplified if blatant problems are just left to fester. I will never touch it again. Ever. No matter what they do to it. I reject it entirely, I reject the gear locked behind it, and my future views of the game as a whole are forever coloured by this. Logged in to see if the daily sortie was worth doing, saw this sacrifice thing announced in the news ticker... and didn't have even the slightest interest. Why should I? The last major release (onslaught) was abominable. The one before that (plural eidolons) was riddled with issues and was accompanied by the removal of a much-loved game mode (raids - while JV was trash and should have died, LoR was stable and polished). Before that was a REALLY buggy mess (plains).

The last time I had a major ragequit was waaay back when Loki Prime came out and the T4 void keys came in. The reason given was dilution in the drop tables, which utterly infuriated me because absolutely nothing was done about worthless trash like orokin cells and fusion cores taking the place of rewards from void missions. In the past, it was anger at what looked to me like a blatant lie (there was nothing done about dilution, so why give that excuse?), from which took me half a year to calm sufficiently down to try the game again. Now, I've got this weird combination of anger (the last game mode was so defective that it could not be completed) and disinterest (why bother with this new stuff, it'll be crap anyway just like the last release). I don't know if I'm even going to bother attempting this sacrifice quest or whatever it turns out to be. Broken games are not how you create and maintain a fanbase, DE. It's how you drive people away from the game, and it's how those driven away will spread their experiences of exactly how they got driven away.

 

(well, that was far more words than I had intended to write)

Edited June 12, 2018 by DoomFruit

[Kiloth]

the thing that really grinds my gears is that i can spend all this time farming for khora only for all of the blueprints to be placed in a damn dojo like its nothing (just like ne zha)

[Zepp_]

No, this isn't their worst move.  Their worst move was making some of the frames drop from a boss so players thought everything would be spoon fed to them forever.

[SilentMobius]

The problem isn't the drop rate, it's the long tail of the distribution.

The chance of getting one of the Khora parts on rotation C (I'm not going to complicate the example with both Rot-C parts, suffice as to say it makes it worse) says that after 8 * 12 (96 waves) you have over a 50% chance of having a specific part

And if you don't have it then...

At 8 * 100 (800 waves) you have a 0.3% chance of not having that part

Unlikely right? Well no, because we have X million players working on this. So, lets say be super conservative and say only 1 million players eventually try to get Khora.

Then, chances are, that around 3000 players will have bad luck and have to make at least 800 waves for that one part

For 1600 waves you'd expect 9 out of a million players to have to suffer at least that.

Also, how do you think those 9 players feel about the median players who did less than 1/16th of the work for the same reward?

This is why IMHO we need caps on number-of-attempts.

To make it easy from a dev perspective, you don't need to change the drop system or the percentages: Auto-fill (Even I could write this script to populate the item DB) and make available in the market a "scanner" you buy for negligible credits (One of these exists for every droppable part), stick it in a gear slot. It has a 0 to 100% "full" counter on it (Use the stack amount)

(You can only buy one at once, only have one type equipped, just standard stuff to prevent exploits)

Each time you do content that could drop the thing in question the "scanner" counts up a notch proportional to the drop chance. If you get the matching drop the "scanner" disappears. If you don't and it hits 100% it decomposes into the thing in question.

DE get to set the threshold (Say... 66% of people should have the things by this point) and we just cut out all the long tail of the ridiculously unlucky.

Much much fairer, and DE could keep the Average-time-to-acquire identical if they just shifted the drop chances very slightly if they care about keeping the mean identical.

Edited July 16, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Learicorn]

Why do people hate Khora and onslaught so much

Why is this such a big deal

I got her super easily just from going to the sanctuary to farm exp lol

[Nadarejin]

Just now, Learicorn said:

Why do people hate Khora and onslaught so much

Why is this such a big deal

I got her super easily just from going to the sanctuary to farm exp lol

You got lucky, that's it. Your experience is dwarfed by the sheer number of others. Warframe wiki has computations on the average # of zones you need to clear per part here: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Khora

Right now, on average, it'd be faster to farm 375 plat through trades and just buy her off the market.

I think that both 5% drops should be on Rotation A, given that rotations go in A-A-B-C sequence. That should help lessen the grind. Two parts on Rotation C at 5% is too much grinding.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Nadarejin

[Educated_Beast]

There is really no excuse for this to continue.  DE needs to adjust drop rates depending on mission length (so endless missions that require 20+mins for a chance, have higehr drop chances).

Another option, especially in onslaught is to subtract drops from loot table each time you collect.  Then going over 8 waves would boost chances.  For example, going to 24 waves would subtract 2 items from loot table already collected from rotation C at 8 and 16, increasing chance of other items dropping. 

Then veteran players wouldn't be falling alseep going to 8 waves, there would be a challenge with an increased chance of reward.  Makes perfect since for onslaught, especially normal mode.  

Give some incentive for players to go past wave 8 and give verterans stuck grinding in normal boring ass game mode a challenge.  

 

EDIT - this is absolutely the worst grind introduced to Warframe.  I ran into another gamer in a different game and we started talking about Warframe.  He had quit because of the grind.  For once, I couldn't argue with him. 

This is to much and DE is sticking middle finger to both new players and veterans with this frame here.  

Edited July 16, 2018 by Educated_Beast

[Learicorn]

51 minutes ago, Nadarejin said:

You got lucky, that's it. Your experience is dwarfed by the sheer number of others. Warframe wiki has computations on the average # of zones you need to clear per part here: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Khora

Right now, on average, it'd be faster to farm 375 plat through trades and just buy her off the market.

I think that both 5% drops should be on Rotation A, given that rotations go in A-A-B-C sequence. That should help lessen the grind. Two parts on Rotation C at 5% is too much grinding.

I just don't get how is this different from Nidus, Harrow or Ivara for example

I had to repeat Oestrus multiple times despite it being my second least favorite game mode to farm Nidus (the first being Defection, that i also had to miserably repeat a bunch to farm Harrow's systems). Ivara wasn't that bad but i also dislike Spy. Yet nobody is talking or complaining about any of these frames.

Onslaught to me seems like a much easier and more enjoyable mode to spend time in for a Warframe.

[Obviousclone]

57 minutes ago, Nadarejin said:

You got lucky, that's it. Your experience is dwarfed by the sheer number of others. Warframe wiki has computations on the average # of zones you need to clear per part here: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Khora

Right now, on average, it'd be faster to farm 375 plat through trades and just buy her off the market.

I think that both 5% drops should be on Rotation A, given that rotations go in A-A-B-C sequence. That should help lessen the grind. Two parts on Rotation C at 5% is too much grinding.

But at the end of the day, the only real complaint you have is "the drop rate %". 

 

For me, getting khora parts wasn't something I actively sought out, but much rather, I would put forma into weapons, then level them up on sanctuary onslaught. It's just as fast (if not faster) than doing something like Hydron or Akkad, and occasionally I would get a khora part. Eventually I ended up grinding into her full set without ever trying because the game mode itself is highly rewarding in exp. About a week after Sanctuary Onslaught came out, I had all the khora parts I needed and I also got the Vazarin waybound that gives health regen unlocked.

 

By comparison, when I was unlocking Nekros, I had to spend resources to open the keys, again, depend on RNG to give me the actual part I wanted, and I got nothing for exp, nothing for credits, nothing for rewards beyond a single nekros part that I already owned a copy of.

[Educated_Beast]

48 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

But at the end of the day, the only real complaint you have is "the drop rate %". 

 

For me, getting khora parts wasn't something I actively sought out, but much rather, I would put forma into weapons, then level them up on sanctuary onslaught. It's just as fast (if not faster) than doing something like Hydron or Akkad, and occasionally I would get a khora part. Eventually I ended up grinding into her full set without ever trying because the game mode itself is highly rewarding in exp. About a week after Sanctuary Onslaught came out, I had all the khora parts I needed and I also got the Vazarin waybound that gives health regen unlocked.

 

By comparison, when I was unlocking Nekros, I had to spend resources to open the keys, again, depend on RNG to give me the actual part I wanted, and I got nothing for exp, nothing for credits, nothing for rewards beyond a single nekros part that I already owned a copy of.

I have all focus unlocked.  Every node.  

I went back while grinding and added over 50 forma to different frames and weapons while looking for khora (ran out of forma) and still never found.  It took me over 2 months running 1-3 tries per day.  Over 1,000 waves to complete!

There is no reason for me to be in normal mode at all.  It's not just the %, it forcing high level players into low level game modes for long durations.  If it was elite, I'd agree with you that it can be done passively.  For an MR25 player with no other frames missing, it sucks.  For a new player, it new levels of grind that disgusts most people.  Why would anyone not invested in game stick around for this garbage?

I'd much rather level up my frames while opening relics.  I never want to play onslaught again.  I just remembered falling alseep while trying to move mouse enough not to go afk.  Stealth farming still faster for focus.  

Elite mode may offer radiant relics but u can't get myself to play it.  As a guy with a 4 year old account, it's really turned me off Warframe. That's my opinion and feedback, take it or leave it.  I just feel DE is shooting themselves in the foot keeping this trash game mode (normal) like it is.  

 

1 hour ago, Learicorn said:

I just don't get how is this different from Nidus, Harrow or Ivara for example

I had to repeat Oestrus multiple times despite it being my second least favorite game mode to farm Nidus (the first being Defection, that i also had to miserably repeat a bunch to farm Harrow's systems). Ivara wasn't that bad but i also dislike Spy. Yet nobody is talking or complaining about any of these frames.

Onslaught to me seems like a much easier and more enjoyable mode to spend time in for a Warframe.

If you don't get it, go look at wiki numbers are sheer volume of complaints (search Google).  All those frames are super easy compared to Khora.  Khora is the new meta of grind and orders of magnitude more time consuming and boring being placed with low level mobs and no other rewards.  

Sure there are lucky players on the left side of bell curve, but most people either get screwed or buy it.  If DE is forcing purchases now, just do that.  Don't even bother with the crappy game mode.  If I knew I had to play over 1000 waves to complete, I'd have just bought it.  

For whatever it's worth, I lost trust and respect for DE with Khora.  

[SilentMobius]

25 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

There is no reason for me to be in normal mode at all.  It's not just the %, it forcing high level players into low level game modes for long durations.  If it was elite, I'd agree with you that it can be done passively.  For an MR25 player with no other frames missing, it sucks.  For a new player, it new levels of grind that disgusts most people.  Why would anyone not invested in game stick around for this garbage?

Really the actual drop %ages are comparable to a prime (especially Solo). An intact relic given you only 2% of a rare, you can multiply that up with other players but that's still only 8% with all 4 player.

Of course you can take radiant relics for a 10% base and thus 35% drop chance for 4 players but that involves another ~5 mission/waves per attempt to get the traces

And however many missions you need to get the relics themselves.

The main difference is that relics are more granular, at each stage you're highly likely to get something useful within a few attempts (a Relic, some traces, then the Prime part itself) with some fixed minimum rewards (You are guaranteed traces to make a radiant in a max of 17 missions/waves) so people don't notice the work they're doing.

Khora is less granular so you're doing a lot, all without any progress (all or nothing rewards), and because of the lack of granularity the distribution is wider and the "long tail" of unlucky people is much longer.

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Lurua]

There's a thing everyone has kinda forgotten or so it seems. DE released a website that has all of the drop rates on it and is updated regularly. Here's the Developer workshop post about it:

Through this website one can see that the drop rates for Khora's parts are as follows:  Chassis: Rare 8.33% Neuroptics: Uncommon 10.00% Systems: 5.64% Blueprint: 5.64%  We can compare these values to other warframes who are farmed through missions that aren't assassinations.

Harrow: Chassis: 3.00%(enemy drop) Neuroptics: 11.28%(spy) Systems: 7.52% or 11.28%(Defection)

Ivara: Chassis: 5.64% or 7.37%(Europa/Ceres or Lua) Neuroptics: 7.52% Systems: 9.09% Blueprint: 7.52%

Nidus: Chassis, Neuroptics, and Systems: 14.29% (Rotation C Infested salvage)

In general, though this situation reminds me of when  Nidus first came out. No one like infested salvage and his drop rate was awful, but eventually, DE fixed it and as you can see his drop rate is a lot higher. Maybe DE will eventually do the same with Khora.

[Nadarejin]

5 hours ago, Learicorn said:

I just don't get how is this different from Nidus, Harrow or Ivara for example

I had to repeat Oestrus multiple times despite it being my second least favorite game mode to farm Nidus (the first being Defection, that i also had to miserably repeat a bunch to farm Harrow's systems). Ivara wasn't that bad but i also dislike Spy. Yet nobody is talking or complaining about any of these frames.

Onslaught to me seems like a much easier and more enjoyable mode to spend time in for a Warframe.

Nidus Droprates are 1.7-2.5x that of Khora, and the main BP is given from the Glast Gambit Quest: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nidus#Main

I only need to farm 3 parts with Nidus, versus the 4 parts for Khora. And two drops for Khora are at 5~% at Rotation C.

My point here is the effort of farming off Onslaught is comparably greater than me just earning plat through trades and buying her off the market.

Sure you won't feel it if your goal is not farming Khora, but that was not my point.

5 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

But at the end of the day, the only real complaint you have is "the drop rate %". 

 

For me, getting khora parts wasn't something I actively sought out, but much rather, I would put forma into weapons, then level them up on sanctuary onslaught. It's just as fast (if not faster) than doing something like Hydron or Akkad, and occasionally I would get a khora part. Eventually I ended up grinding into her full set without ever trying because the game mode itself is highly rewarding in exp. About a week after Sanctuary Onslaught came out, I had all the khora parts I needed and I also got the Vazarin waybound that gives health regen unlocked.

 

By comparison, when I was unlocking Nekros, I had to spend resources to open the keys, again, depend on RNG to give me the actual part I wanted, and I got nothing for exp, nothing for credits, nothing for rewards beyond a single nekros part that I already owned a copy of.

Nekros Drop Rates are at 33%: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nekros

I'd still farm Nekros  rather than buy him off the market. That was what I was trying to bring out, the amount of effort needed of raw grinding the parts (including keys with Nekros), versus just earning plat for the frame's market price. I was just elaborating that point, and making a suggestion to make it feel less grinding, without changing the drop chances, just adjusting the drop table. Call that a complaint if you will, but that's how it is.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Nadarejin

[nssBoB]

I would hapilly grind ten more khoras than single extra harrow...

[Marvelous_A]

The real problem is - Khora is the sole reason of existence of normal SO. Other than Khora there is no one god damn reason to play it. It's entirely replaceable by ESO, which is essentially the same thing but better, giving more XP, better rewards and being more challenging (and equally boring).

Edited July 17, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[Talinthis]

khora is pretty S#&$ty to try and get. i didnt mind her in elite onslaught.. would have been annoying after i got her, but only managed to get half her parts from it before the change. only regular frame in the game i have ever bought with platinum, (3rd if you count all frames in the game, including primes.)