Why Saryn?

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Sheady said:

Like is said, its either going to be a hit or miss depending on how the final product will behave. Personally i think she'll be much much better with groups who have large AoE damage abilities that can pop spores however solo, im not too optimistic. Regardless we'll just have to wait and see. 

As a contrasting opinion, I think she's going to be far better solo than her current, but her team potential is going to only improve a little by comparison to now.

The proposed spreading changes will allow your team to spread spores and not shut them down as they do currently, big buff to current team play, true. But that change to Toxic Lash, Molt and the massive shift towards Damage on her 1, that's going to hit so much harder while playing Solo than her current kit does.

Took her out for a few runs last session, and being limited to melee-popping spores with the current health/armour stats does surprisingly well right up until it doesn't, and enemy damage starts to shred you because your current Molt just pops and you start having to leave it somewhere safe and let the Augment heal you while you move, and cast it again to distract enemies before you actually attack. It's not useless, but it does start feeling like it's just a 'hey, look over there' trick against enemies that are getting steadily more annoyed at falling for it.

Meanwhile the option to spread spores with a ranged weapon and a Molt that will last around six seconds minimum (three seconds of charge up means three seconds needed for the enemies to strip it back down again) plus a speed boost on cast that could be rather significant, meaning that your overall survivability will be through the roof and so you'll be effective solo for far, far longer. As a proportionate increase in strength, this change to her solo game could be a metric volume more impressive than the improvement to her team game.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, MageMachine said:

Spores were not buffed.

At present if you don't custom build a weapon for spores and instead just use toxic lash galatine prime, it is trivial to reach immediate 10k dps toxin proc spread to all enemies in range.

Except you missed something key.

People go on and on about how the Viral Status sets enemies to half health, but she can still do that, on demand, to any enemy near enough to her to matter. Meanwhile, something she has never had in her kit is the Corrosive Status, only the damage. And now she has it in triplicate. A half Health level 100 Grineer Heavy Gunner still has 96.6% damage reduction on your attacks, and a Bombard has even more.

Spore will not die with enemies in the new version, it will spread on death as well as on popping. Your method of dishing out 10k is fine, but if all the enemies you proc will die, the cast will simply end, you'll have to recast every time that combo goes off and kills things. False economy. You're trading 'instant damage' for extra energy cost, while the new one will be a single cast that you can reliably farm continuously, ramping its damage until it can kill things, spread, kill things, spread, kill things, spread, and still keep ramping damage for as long as there are spawns near spawns, you won't even have to be near them once it reaches that state.

Add to that, armour strip at three procs per second (+100% Strength is 100% proc chance) means that at levels where your 10k Toxin damage combo won't kill armoured Grineer outright (say around Sortie level, where enemy Gunners have 97.6% damage reduction due to armour), this corrosive version will have stripped 92-93% off their armour value by the third tick (two seconds to go from 7332 armour to around 551 armour, by my maths) so your weapons will be hitting harder against them, and killing faster.

So, on the one sense, you're right, the Toxin Proc combo going away means that Spores themselves have less instant damage. However, new spores have far and away better potential damage, and new Saryn has the damage from Lash and the survivability from Molt and the new stat buff to build that potential damage up. She also has the armour strip when needed, to put the hurt on the one enemy type that needs hurting most at higher level. Plus if you want Viral, you have a far more reliable method of using it (press 4, everything instantly at half health around you, rather than 'spore, pop spore, hope it spreads far enough to hit everything you need it on').

So calm down. You'll be absolutely fine with the new Saryn, just adjust your tactics a little. 3 is becoming the damage dealer through your weapons*, while 2 is now the consistent debuffer, and can be farmed for massive damage over a short-ish time, and 2 will now actually stay alive for aggro draw CC, all the while if you ever need enemies to actually be at half-health, you can instantly put any enemy near you to half health, instead of hoping that Spores will spread to the ones behind you.

*Actually, somebody pointed this out, a guaranteed Toxin proc on your Primary, means you'll be adding incredible damage to your attacks over the next few shots, you think a 10k proc is hefty with melee? Try a 100k proc with a rifle, and with the speed you can apply that, you could be adding around 400-500% dps to your weapons overall... this could be scary.

Just adjust where you think you're going to be with Saryn, you may be surprised to find that you're a murder machine above and beyond anything she's currently capable of. But don't tell Pablo, he'll have to nerf it.

[Ozamchist]

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

that only comes into play if you're using a Sniper Rifle to apply Gas(or some other form of Spike Damage like Meme Strike in place of a Sniper Rifle - or an exploit with Melee that i'm not going to go into depth on), elsewise the Toxin Status you're transferring is pretty paltry compared to the Health of Enemies assuming we're not just AFKFarming a low Level Mission.

Toxin Status is not the source of most of Saryns' Damage, since transferring it only works in a useful manner with Spike Damage Weapons.

I misswrote some of this: it's the toxin damage in her kit (molt, contai- I mean err toxic lash) that makes her effective against the corpus, since its damage ignores shields in their entirety, and the only reason someone would think that it was the spores in her kit that gave her this edge against this particular is because of the toxin transfer, which can be pretty potent against high level enemies even without the stuff you mentioned.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

on paper this seems like a big deal however as Viral, Saryn is already very capable of dealing high Damage through Armor,

But... she doesn't. I mean, forgive the flat denial, but that's not what Spores does. She sets enemy health to half, and once the proc ends, if you haven't refreshed it with re-procs, they gain back 50% of their max health regardless of what damage you've dealt to them in the mean time. Yes setting an enemy to half-health is a lot of 'damage' on the surface, but it is a temporary Debuff in reality.

On top of that, even though you've halved their health, you have not reduced their resistance to damage, a half-health Heavy Gunner still has 97.6% resistance to damage, see?

[blacklusterseph]

15 hours ago, taiiat said:

no, i do not desire to apply Corrosive Status to Enemies that you've already removed the Armor on, because Spores will remove their Armor within like two to three seconds, and after that being Corrosive is an objective downgrade to Spores.
no, i don't want the Ability that's cheap and easy to spread to uselessly tick Corrosive on Enemies that already had their Armor stripped. and no i don't want to pay a lot of Energy to apply Viral to Enemies for a short period of time.

with the suggested increased Duration of Miasma, 100% Status would easily remove 90% Armor with one Cast. so then.... two Casts worth would.... be already more efficient than Eidolons with 5 Sarpa Shots (already >99% Armor reduction). about equivalent to 5 Sarpa Shots and 4 Melee hits. any more Armor Reduction past that is almost entirely a waste of time.

so why do you desire to have a permanent Status Effect applied several times per second, infinitely, to Enemies that lost their Armor a long time ago? i certainly don't. i'd much prefer to keep refreshing Viral since it has a Duration. Corrosive doesn't have a Duration.

I feel the same way, especially playing a melee Saryn. I thought they would have just made miasma apply the rapid corrosive procs along with its stun and just make the viral spore mechanic more reliable. That was the main source of confusion that  people were bringing up. But even so, I prefer the spores applying the viral status that neither I (nor the rest of my team) is likely to be running on all my weapons anyway. Putting viral on her only CC ability seems nonsensical given its insane energy cost, you're not gonna be spamming miasa just to apply the missing status proc.

Edited May 13, 2018 by blacklusterseph

[Grimmstyler]

20 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Deal me in on the new Sayrn Rework!

My only Gripe is that if ability 1 is a active ability and can be detonated.. It should have the active ability symbol like Nekros.. And even a animation of Spore active..

Maybe somehow the animation could even clue to how effective spore is working.. That could really go well with a Viral Miasma

I'm talking an animation like Nidus's Mutation..

[Grimmstyler]

One thing is.. Does the Viral stick around indefinitely on effected targets?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

It has a symbol much like Nekros's Mutation Counter, that tracks the current Spore damage.

And her 4 is what will be applying Viral, and it will likely last for 12 7.5 seconds, the same duration as any viral proc she does now.

Edited May 13, 2018 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[T3HC4J]

Spore is now corrosive and I believe its 50% chance per tick of spore to apply proc which have the normal proc effect and duration.

[Birdframe_Prime]

25 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

I'm talking an animation like Nidus's Mutation..

To re-iterate, take a look at the Prime Time. It's a visual animation on every single enemy affected, and has a circular counter as big as your entire Ammo section showing you how powerful each tick is. It's about as close to Nidus' stacks as possible to get.

25 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

One thing is.. Does the Viral stick around indefinitely on effected targets?

Viral Procs will come from Miasma, not Spores, and no, all viral procs have a limited duration, but that duration can be refreshed if you re-apply it.

Spore is Corrosive, and because the Duration is Infinite (as they say several times) then yes, the effect of that is permanent until you end the ability yourself.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2018-05-11 at 11:47 PM, (XB1)Sheady said:

Its kinda a buff nerf thing like chroma's "rework" (i cant use any heavier air quotes,its just not possible). Her spores will be able to scale now, however they changed the status effect to corrosive which is good against grineer and can no longer be put on molt which harms the farming aspect somewhat. Molt got a buff albeit not a very potent one. they should have made her augment intrinsic and changed the mod to give the molt an AI similarly to equinox's augment. Her 3 got a very good buff and her 4 also got a good buff. All in all this is either going to be a hit or miss. And im right with you in that Ember got hit way too hard but DE wont reverse any changes sadly. 

Viral isn't what made spores strong against other factions.  It was the toxin proc it carried either from toxic lash or if you had a gas modded weapon.  Being able to refresh viral constantly isn't as helpful as removing armor perm.  Since toxic lash is now a forced toxin proc on every shot you fire from a gun There is where your damage lies.

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

well, Saryn had been waiting for some touchups to the last changes for 2 1/2 years...
and 'no useless Abilities' is funny in light of how incredibly bad of an Ability Miasma is, due to just being one of the oldest Abilities in the game thesedays.

as always though, it's unfortunate that the educated feedback gets mixed in with 95% of people that don't understand Saryn, and that can make it confusing to others as to anything related to Saryn. so i don't blame anyone for being really confused, the comical misinformation about how Saryn works isn't helping anyone. 

 

- - - - - 

don't ask me why the solution to mechanics that are broken - because they are actually broken, saying they're supposed to be broken isn't an excuse, prventing the mechanics from actually working with 95% of the Equipment when working as expected and should be would be just fine - and complex mechanics that Players perhaps don't understand because the game doesn't even hint at them and the Playerbase by large isn't exactly what one would call dedicated and educated perse... it beats me too why the way to 'improve complex mechanics' is to remove them and make the Warframe an automated AFK bot. i don't know either, man. and it's frustrating that gutting the Warframe so that skilled play doesn't exist is the plan.

Only thing that's really being removed here besides a semi afk method is toxin synergy with her kit.  They addressed a lot of the issues with spores inconsistencies.  which is good anyway you look at it.

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

 

that only comes into play if you're using a Sniper Rifle to apply Gas(or some other form of Spike Damage like Meme Strike in place of a Sniper Rifle - or an exploit with Melee that i'm not going to go into depth on), elsewise the Toxin Status you're transferring is pretty paltry compared to the Health of Enemies assuming we're not just AFKFarming a low Level Mission.

Toxin Status is not the source of most of Saryns' Damage, since transferring it only works in a useful manner with Spike Damage Weapons.

What the person you quoted was getting to is spores are carrying the toxin proc.  Which is strong when you do something like sniper saryn.  But is still applicable with toxic lash and melee.  Wether the toxin damage came from a weapon or on saryns kit isn't really the point.  The point is toxin procs is what enabled spore killing.  Not spores themselves.

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

as for Damage types here's some hints for (i guess everyone? :/) people that aren't thinking about probabilities and the actual functionality of Status Effects:

no, i do not desire to apply Corrosive Status to Enemies that you've already removed the Armor on, because Spores will remove their Armor within like two to three seconds, and after that being Corrosive is an objective downgrade to Spores.
no, i don't want the Ability that's cheap and easy to spread to uselessly tick Corrosive on Enemies that already had their Armor stripped. and no i don't want to pay a lot of Energy to apply Viral to Enemies for a short period of time.

with the suggested increased Duration of Miasma, 100% Status would easily remove 90% Armor with one Cast. so then.... two Casts worth would.... be already more efficient than Eidolons with 5 Sarpa Shots (already >99% Armor reduction). about equivalent to 5 Sarpa Shots and 4 Melee hits. any more Armor Reduction past that is almost entirely a waste of time.

so why do you desire to have a permanent Status Effect applied several times per second, infinitely, to Enemies that lost their Armor a long time ago? i certainly don't. i'd much prefer to keep refreshing Viral since it has a Duration. Corrosive doesn't have a Duration.

 

i'm sorry but that's just how Status in this game works. 
i'm overall just disappointed that everyone on the Player and Developer side of the fence seems to not click with these facts.

If you're only concerned with one batch of enemies then of course corrosive seems worse.  But so long as spores are continuing to infect their still stripping armor.  Which is perm.  Viral isn't.  Also i'm pretty sure enemies weak to corrosive still take extra damage to corrosive damage even after armor is stripped.  And that's simple.  Armor reduction is more valuable than halfed health.  Doesn't really matter in the end anyway.  Toxic lash is basically overpowered now since toxin is basically a second slash proc that doesn't ignore armor.  And you're forcing that effect everytime you shoot with the new lash.  Her damage is going to be insane.  Halving health is only really valuable when you don't have good armor strip.  This is new mass AOE strip.  Making enemies much easier to kill so long as they're alive.  versus constantly having to refresh a status and dealing with armor.

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

it's one of the strongest Damage Bonuses in the game currently, for ones that affect Melee obviously.
it is a very powerful Melee Damage Bonus. and is currently the entire hinging point of the true power of Saryn, to transfer that really powerful Toxin Status. Guns need to be Sniper Rifles and have Gas Equipped to take advantage of double dipping in order to compete with that.

yeah new lash is insanely strong.

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

on paper this seems like a big deal however as Viral, Saryn is already very capable of dealing high Damage through Armor, despite it not being a beneficial Damage Type. what Damage Type Spores is dealing isn't actually very important, because currently Saryn can cause Spore Bursts for enormous amounts of Damage (my favorite test situation was the Lv9999 Alert allowed me to actually apply things to the fullest instead of things dying before the full setup was utilized and ergo only taking partial Damage - i was dealing >1 Million DPS to the Enemies in that Alert) if one cares to use the important Abilities, and the Damage will 'infinitely' Scale if what's proposed goes live.
just like how it doesn't really matter that Magnetize is Blast Damage, because when it detonates that Corrupted Heavy Gunner over there that hasn't had its Armor stripped or even weakened much still died to a Damage Number of 7 digits or greater. as Blast Damage through tens of thousands of Armor.

so what is applying what Status Effects is what really matters here, either Damage Type will obliterate Enemies. it could be some other Damage Type and do very well too, as long as it wasn't like, Magnetic Damage or something.

Saryn isn't doing that damage.  The toxin proc is.  If we're talking about the value of status proccing here corrosive>viral because armor reduction with enemy armor scaling is the entire reason player power strength and survivability is constantly being increased.  Corrosive is a perm effect that does extra damage to some of the most annoying units in the game.  Viral halfs health.  Which does reduce the current EHP you are dealing with.  But it's not perm.  and you still rely on having a strong gun to chunk through the DR.  Viral is indeed widely useful.  But so is toxin.  Which she's getting the ability to force proc with her weapons in the update.  toxin is a corpus killer.  The idea of constantly refreshing viral to have a semi perm enemies with halved health is nice.  But it's not as nice as perm removing damage reduction.  Besides all this though you've kind of shot yourself in the foot.  If I understand this last point you're saying the status essentially doesn't matter.  So if it doesn't matter why are you fighting to keep viral on spores when objectively speaking removing damage reduction forever is far more powerful than halving HP in this day and age?

It's not like saryn is losing her damage either.  New toxic lash is a thing.

[Grimmstyler]

17 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

And her 4 is what will be applying Viral, and it will likely last for 12 7.5 seconds, the same duration as any viral proc she does now.

@Thaylien 

In my opinion Miasma Viral should be indefinite for a ultimate Warframe ability.. And Spore not indefinite for a power 1 ability with energy cost.. But the spread, DOT and scale for Spore looks good

And I'd rather see a animation on Saryn like Nidus's mutation and change with the effectiveness of Spore.. Since the Rework has a detonation option for Spore..

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

I misswrote some of this: it's the toxin damage in her kit (molt, contai- I mean err toxic lash) that makes her effective against the corpus, since its damage ignores shields in their entirety, and the only reason someone would think that it was the spores in her kit that gave her this edge against this particular is because of the toxin transfer, which can be pretty potent against high level enemies even without the stuff you mentioned.

 

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But... she doesn't. I mean, forgive the flat denial, but that's not what Spores does. She sets enemy health to half, and once the proc ends, if you haven't refreshed it with re-procs, they gain back 50% of their max health regardless of what damage you've dealt to them in the mean time. Yes setting an enemy to half-health is a lot of 'damage' on the surface, but it is a temporary Debuff in reality.

On top of that, even though you've halved their health, you have not reduced their resistance to damage, a half-health Heavy Gunner still has 97.6% resistance to damage, see?

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Viral isn't what made spores strong against other factions.

alright, i guess it's time for facts, to teach people how Saryn actually works.

when Toxin Status is transferred by Spores, the Toxin Status also increases the Spore Burst Damage. which means that the Viral Damage Bursts that can hit all of the Enemies within Range.... go from 20 Base Damage exploding in an AoE to adding on what you've got from Toxin Status...
which means the Bursting can be easily giving 5 digit Damage to each Spore Burst(or much, much higher but that's an easy number to reach) - so more AoE Damage than a Penta, per Spore Burst.

THAT, is how Saryn Kills high Level Enemies. and why i try to educate people so often that Toxic Lash is a keystone to the entire Warframe - it scales with your Melee Weapon, and therefore Toxic Lash also scales with Blood Rush and Condition Overload. and by extension so does the entire Warframe.
so when you're nuking things with Saryn via Spores and Toxin Status/Toxic Lash - the Toxin Status isn't what's doing most of the Damage. it's the Toxin Status increasing the Damage of Spores, and being reflected between all Enemies in Range, many, many times.

 

unfortunately ofcourse, this is made to only work effectively with Melee via Blood Rush & Condition Overload, or a Sniper Rifle because the transfer is extremely bad at taking multiple Toxin Status (a deliberate bug as i mentioned previously, a "well we made a good mechanic that is themed perfectly but decided we didn't want it to work because it would be effective without requiring specific Equipment" meh).

- - - - - 

 

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Only thing that's really being removed here besides a semi afk method is toxin synergy with her kit. 

actually, the plan is going to remove everything but AFK. it's going to become even more of an AFK Ability because the one Mechanic it's going to work on is literally automatic and you just stand back and watch it while spreading it from time to time.
literally AFK.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also i'm pretty sure enemies weak to corrosive still take extra damage to corrosive damage even after armor is stripped.

no, if an Enemy has Ferrite Armor, once the Armor is Stripped, Corrosive Damage Modifiers no longer apply. then it would be their Flesh that Corrosive doesn't get a Bonus to.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If we're talking about the value of status proccing here corrosive>viral because armor reduction with enemy armor scaling is the entire reason player power strength and survivability is constantly being increased.  Corrosive is a perm effect that does extra damage to some of the most annoying units in the game.  Viral halfs health.  Which does reduce the current EHP you are dealing with.  But it's not perm.  and you still rely on having a strong gun to chunk through the DR.  Viral is indeed widely useful.  But so is toxin.  Which she's getting the ability to force proc with her weapons in the update.  toxin is a corpus killer.  The idea of constantly refreshing viral to have a semi perm enemies with halved health is nice.  But it's not as nice as perm removing damage reduction.

Besides all this though you've kind of shot yourself in the foot.  If I understand this last point you're saying the status essentially doesn't matter.  So if it doesn't matter why are you fighting to keep viral on spores when objectively speaking removing damage reduction forever is far more powerful than halving HP in this day and age?

It's not like saryn is losing her damage either.  New toxic lash is a thing.

but you haven't even addressed that i made it abundantly clear that Spores applying Corrosive Status and Miasma applying Viral Status is backwards. because of the relative cost and how long the Status Effect is useful on an Enemy (since Saryn is a DoT and duration Damage themed Warframe). Corrosive has much less long term value because applying more after the Armor is gone is useless, while keeping Viral from expiring is useful until the Enemy is dead.

no i said the Damage Type isn't important, because as Viral Saryn can already Burst for big numbers through their Armor. Damage Type and Status Effect are different words, so...

Damage Loss will be via Spores AFK'ing the Enemies to death and Killing all of the Enemies in the general area and resetting the 'infinite Scaling' repeatedly throughout the Mission. which is the only way it isn't an AFK Ability, when you need to wait for new Enemies to Spawn to Cast it again and then go AFK until it runs out next time.
and Toxic Lash is..... basically pointless with the proposed changes - because all of the Synergy was deleted out of the Abilities. Toxin Status is irrelevant to the other Abilities, Molt doesn't interact with the other Abilities at all, Miasma only interacts via a Binary 'has Spores on it or not'.... a Warframe that was built on mixing DoT themes together, having all of that just completely deleted, because reasons.
(and ofcourse Miasma will still be functionally useless because of it being such an old bland Ability, but now you have to Spam it constantly for the Viral Status, to 'make it good' by forcing you to have to pay a comical amount of Energy for just Viral Status since it doesn't do anything other than Viral Status)

 

(btw why are you bringing up halving Health so much? like 50 times in one Post? Viral Status is only one part of what Saryn currently does. there's a lot more involved with how Saryn is effective than just Viral Status. the Viral Status on every Enemy is just an icing on the cake)

Edited May 13, 2018 by taiiat

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

for a ultimate Warframe ability

See, this is something I really have to scratch my head about... Warframe doesn't have 'ultimates' like other games. Literally just Ability 1, Ability 2, Ability 3 and Ability 4. Energy cost is kind of related, but not always since there are abilities like War Cry that cost less than a 1 ability, but are on the 3 button, and then there are abilities like Anti-Matter Drop, which is the highest single-cast damage in the game per shot on the 2 button (yes Nova has a better cast on her 4, but her 3 isn't better than her 2, not by a long way). Nidus has his Heal on 4, but his other three abilities are all better, all of them, and the same with Octavia as her 4 only serves to boost the range and damage of her other three casts.

Warframe is not cut-and-dried enough to say that a frame has an Ultimate.

But on the logic of Energy cost, you don't think that a Radial cast that deals instant Viral Status to everything in range (everything mind, not just a single target that might spread to others if you interact with it...) and also deals a base, neutral strength, minimum of 500 Viral damage to everything for a minimum of 5 seconds (they're upping the base duration, so that's 6 ticks, if you count the immediate one) meaning a minimum of 3000 Viral to all enemies in range, while the proc is actively being refreshed with each tick, and then has an interaction with Spores to deal Double Damage (6000 Viral), and then if you're dealing that to any enemy that's had Armour stripped off, like Grineer, or has no shields after spore damage, like the Corpus, this Viral damage will deal 50-75% (9000-10,500 Viral) more on top due to Flesh weakness...  If you think that ability is not worth 100 energy, then you've not compared it to a lot of the other radial 4 casts around.

This one is easily worth the cost. And the thing you might remember is that the Viral proc then lasts from the end of the last tick, so with the increased Duration, the 7.5 second proc will be a neutral-duration total of 12.5 seconds from the start of the cast, just like the comment from @-AoN-CanoLathra- pointed out.

And think about adding just a little duration onto that ability, and strength. With Spores running on things and stripped armour/shields, if you put on a simple Intensify and Continuity for 30% extra effect, you'll be dealing 6.5 ticks of damage at 650 damage per tick, doubled by having spores on there, and multiplied by the bonus against Flesh, and on top of that, setting the enemy to half-health with the status... You'll be dealing around 12,700 damage to 14,800 damage to all enemies in range, plus whatever value of health is equal to 50%.

But let's be sensible about this, to make Spores really do the work for you, you'd mod for +100% strength, get that proc chance to 100% for faster and faster armour strip. At that level, you're dealing, say, 6500 damage at base with a Continuity, then you're doubling for 13,000, then you're adding on the Grineer Flesh type for +75% damage on top for 22,750 Damage, and then half-health on the enemy from that first tick. So you could kill anything that had a scaled health of around 45,500 in one cast.

Let me put that in a little context; A level 95 Heavy Gunner has 45,814 Health protected by armour. If you have Spores strip off that armour and hit 4, that's 1-shot territory thanks to Spores dealing damage the entire time they're active.

A 4th ability that could one-cast-kill any number of Heavy Gunners in range up to level 95, and maybe higher thanks to the damage dealt by Spores to get their armour stripped.

That's the potential power of Saryn's new 4, and if that's not worth 100 Energy, then what is?

By contrast, her 1? You cast it and it starts off at 25 damage per spore. Yes it can scale up, but if the ability only lasted for a limited time, how would it do that? The actual cap on damage like that would be... let's see, if the ability lasted 10 seconds? At best you might strip the armour off a level 30 Grineer. The purpose of the ability; scaling damage, scaling procs of Corrosive, and spreading consistently, that would be gone.

But let's take that with a pinch of salt; you aren't always going to wait for full armour strip, and you aren't always going to wait for the full ticks of damage to take effect. You'll be using the new power-house on her kit, her Toxic Lash, which will be adding Toxin Damage and Toxin Status to all of your weapons. You'll be powering those level 100's down so fast you won't even blink until you realise you've accidentally scaled up the mission to level 200 or so and are getting one-shot whenever Molt dies.

I genuinely think you're going to be fine.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

alright, i guess it's time for facts, to teach people how Saryn actually works.

Hey, don't get snippy, I know exactly how that mechanic works. My point was that the Viral damage doesn't get transmitted through armour. It doesn't. Viral is mitigated by it, so even the spread with Toxin procs doesn't do this, and I quote: "Saryn is already very capable of dealing high Damage through Armor"

Just dealing high damage will always cap out. Doesn't matter what enemy type you're against, damage caps out. Especially when you're up against Armour.

Even then, the spread of current Spore damage could be far better.

Spores takes over 25% of the damage that caused the Toxin Proc, meaning it's reduced already, and Viral itself has no benefits against shields, armoured enemies, and even has a 50% reduction in effectiveness against base Infested Flesh. It then procs Toxin with that damage, which because of how the Toxin Proc actually functions is only 50% of the taken-across damage, meaning that the actual Proc on Toxin is only 17.5% of the damage that caused the initial proc.

So unless you literally take an AoE weapon (funnily enough you even pointed out the Penta) to blast those spores apart, sending all three Spores from an enemy out for three separate instances of the same damage, you aren't getting anywhere near that kind of burst damage. DC/BR Lash, works too, if you can farm up that combo counter.

One of the oldest rework-thread concepts for Saryn was asking for that Toxin damage to be taken across as actual Toxin, which would get a bonus in damage against Ferrite and a few others, would bypass Corpus Shields, and then the Proc would be stronger too for including Toxin Damage in the base.

Still, that's all moot now.

But, I'll be fair, your emphasis on Toxic Lash is my own personal view on things, and I will shake your hand in fellowship at the pain of having to explain that time and again to so many people who just don't get it...

The issue I'll get to now is your stance on the two proc types of Miasma and Spores being backwards in the proposed change, and I challenge you with Practical Effectiveness.

Basically... The status type that you want the most of, the biggest quantity of, when playing the game is Corrosive. Whether you're against Infested or Grineer, stripping the armour off heavy units or ancients is one of the more important functions to ensure that damage goes across evenly. When you're Solo, when you're not in an organised team with Corrosive Projection on, armour strip on those enemies is difficult and very key to sustaining your kills through higher level. Viral is not the 'double damage buff' that people think it is, although it does make a window where the enemy needs 50% less damage to kill, your ability to deal that damage though... is still being mitigated.

What ability, besides Spores, has a consistent, persistent mechanic for ticking Status 3 times a second in its base form? None of them. Others have percentage-based removal of Armour, but in terms of using the Status... none. Putting Corrosive Status on Miasma, to go with the damage, wouldn't help against even level 50 enemies, it just wouldn't. So if you want to get the most procs of Corrosive out there, Spores is the way to do it.

Enemies walking at you will only get weaker and weaker, until instead of taking a level 100 Bombard down from 1.4 million Effecive health, with full armour, down to 7 million, you've taken all his armour off and he's down to 400k instead. It may not be instant, but if you have a Spore going on and spreading constantly, even on death of enemies, that's the result.

Even after just 3 seconds, with high Strength, you've ticked Corrosive 12 times, for massive Effective Health reduction. On a level 100 Grineer Heavy Gunner, that's the difference between 7332 armour, and 232, or 96% damage reduction down to 44%, meaning that every three seconds per enemy, your team has a greater than 50% damage buff against that enemy. And how long does three seconds take when the enemy is around a corner from you, or out of range and you're spreading spores using ranged weapons as they come in?

Corrosive on Spores makes your own damage more effective overall, and your team's damage more effective on top of that. Viral on Spores was simply sustaining the proc for longer.

Meanwhile, the status type you only need once per enemy is Viral. It makes more sense to have a massive burst of Viral to half enemy health when you actually need it, staggering enemies at the same time, so you can attack or withdraw the already weakened enemies.

The change is flat-out logical to me.

[(PSN)crescentwolf10]

Why not titania, atlas, vauban, or wukong? =/

[(PSN)ChaosLordZerato]

Saryns's revisited is a nice slice of life change to her in my opinion she is an end game frame an she should reflect that when I say end game I mean besides primes she is the last frame in the star chart to farm an the most annoying boss fight.  She is a frame that I would agree was in a good place just needed he health back lol the scaling on her might give ideas on how to adjust the other frames which needs it like Vaulban who needs a buff to all 

Mesa who's 1 is useless 

Nidus cause the stack building is very tiring needs an easier way an more health 

Ash's 1 needs to throw 3 shuriken more duration on his stealth 

There is more but I feel she was easier to do first.

[EinheriarJudith]

On 2018-05-11 at 6:05 AM, (PS4)lagrue said:

I don't even play Saryn but this cycle of nerfing everything that performs remotely well is getting sickening.  Stuff like Atterax+Meme Strike can stay forever.  Stuff like Limbo's stasis can affect everybody in the squad despite repeated complaints for YEARS.  Equinox can blink and in a moment cc and make everything for 7 miles bleed.  But oh boy, Saryn nuked the onslaught map, we better drive her into the ground.

Everytime a frame finds a niche, it's taken away.  Like come, hardly anybody was running Saryn before SO except the people who really liked her.  It's not like she was everybody's go-to frame to cheese... but nope, recent whispers on the forums say she's best for SO, which means DE has to come in and take our toys away.  "Oh, you used to abilities - you have a cast and forget build"

Pretty soon they're just going to take the powers away from all frames and justify it the same way. 

I still fnd it funny to this day that they made Nekros desecrate "cast and forget" and that was the SOLUTION for his build, yet for everybody other frame it is the forbidden zone.  
 

its not about picking frames to cheese and shes one of the top 5 for elite onslaught. spore was definitely needing to be reigned in because of map wipe and killing enemies in spawns and other rooms. melee is going to get its fix to if you didnt see spin atk is going bye bye.

[DeliciousDoob69]

On 2018-05-12 at 8:37 PM, Grimmstyler said:

Deal me in on the new Sayrn Rework!

My only Gripe is that if ability 1 is a active ability and can be detonated.. It should have the active ability symbol like Nekros.. And even a animation of Spore active..

Maybe somehow the animation could even clue to how effective spore is working.. That could really go well with a Viral Miasma

There is, no need to gripe. In fact it's huge and really hard to miss. gl Tenno.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

its not about picking frames to cheese and shes one of the top 5 for elite onslaught. spore was definitely needing to be reigned in because of map wipe and killing enemies in spawns and other rooms. melee is going to get its fix to if you didnt see spin atk is going bye bye.

Yeah I wrote this post about 6 hours before they announced they're killing meme strike cheese lol

But it really is about that - because they did it to Ignis by taking way it's blast radius, they did it to Ember who could only cheese low levels as it was, now it's Saryn.  It's just any time players find something that remotely speeds up grinding or is easy.  You ever noticed they constantly bring the damage frames down so that Defense and Support frame players feel better?  Anything that's remotely good for clearing mobs... in a mob based shooter.  

If you kill too fast that's bad - but powers than make you near invincible, powers that literally do make you invincible (Harrow) those are totally cool in DE's books.  They just crap on offensive players every chance they get. 

It doesn't surprise me in the least something like Saryn is in top 5 for ESO... we're talking about a mode that hinges on killing stuff as fast as possible... and a frame that's designed around killing stuff as fast as possible.  Logic would dictate she's doing exactly what she's supposed to do - but because too many people have started using it - it's suddently an issue. 

Did you see wide and mass spread complaints about Saryn being OP last month, or the month before?  Me neither.  

It's 100% about neutering the efficiency of players to complete content.  Pretty soon we'll all have feathers to tickle eachother with instead of weapons. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[Birdframe_Prime]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

If you kill too fast that's bad - but powers than make you near invincible, powers that literally do make you invincible (Harrow) those are totally cool in DE's books.  They just crap on offensive players every chance they get. 

Yeah, I think the issue isn't at all this 'if it's too good, nerf it' thing, it's 'if the ability isn't supposed to be used that way from the creator's ideals for the game'.

Take Ember, for example, it wasn't that she was being used to deal lots of damage on low-level missions, because if it was then they wouldn't have built in double-damage into the new one in order to actually make the damage last a little longer into mid-game. It was the part where you could stand out of the line-of-sight of enemies, and hit them with damage before you even got there. The bit where players wouldn't even see enemies as they walked through missions. The half-range is what the change was about, making sure you actually have to get up-close to deal that damage and you can't skip areas by letting the fire kill things behind doors and so on. A fast-moving Ember can still do exactly what she did on low level.

The downside of this is that it also nerfed what was a little better about Ember, being that you could turn her 4 into more CC, meaning that the Accelerant/Fire Blast combo that stunned and then panicked enemies for CC wasn't so necessary and you could move around with a knock-down CC on every enemy that approached. Sadly, with this change, Ember's lack of base survivability is an issue, and she really needs some kind of damage mitigation on her now to be actually effective once you reach levels where her damage is actually capping out.

Or Banshee, now there's a change... Resonating Quake. Everyone thinks that the change made to RQ was to make the map-nuke go away, but it wasn't. What it was supposed to change was the strategy of the Banshee player of sitting in the middle of the map, hitting 4, and then having a sandwich while the ability killed things. It did this by making the ability a single pulse that meant Banshee would fire, stop, fire, stop, and still have the option to be mobile.

The problem with this is that it didn't actually change the tactic. Players still sit in the middle and press 4, just more often now, and with Energy regeneration effects all over the place to simply self-sustain indefinitely. The ranged damage may have been reduced, but a good build can still hit the edges of the Hydron tile, and by the time the enemy actually run in close, they're in the higher damage area and get killed anyway.

So with Saryn, the initial change here is to make sure that you can't build a max-range Saryn, load up a Molt with Spores, hit it with a Penta, and then everything around starts taking DoT of about 25% of that Penta's blast per tick and is dead before you see it. Because that's not how people were supposed to use the Molt/Spores combo, in their opinion.

But then... then they got started and thought 'why not buff her up while we're at it?'

And seriously, if these changes go through, you're not even going to notice the lack of the Molt/Spores combo, these changes are going to wreck face across the board. Just not by creating an instant burst of radial damage anymore.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

My point was that the Viral damage doesn't get transmitted through armour. It doesn't. Viral is mitigated by it

that's the exact point! Viral Damage not being incredible on paper vs Armor, still performing well because of raw power. obviously this has a limit but my experiences have been sufficient until ~Lv175+ Corrupted Heavy Gunners.
where at that point C.Heavy Gunners took several seconds to Kill and C.Heavy Gunner Eximus became quite durable. and that... was with a Melee Weapon that couldn't fit Condition Overload yet, and it didn't even have Organ Shatter for the same lack of space. so it could've been a lot stronger(~13x stronger) >.>

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Putting Corrosive Status on Miasma, to go with the damage, wouldn't help against even level 50 enemies, it just wouldn't.

that isn't correct and you should know better than that. a single Cast of Miasma @ 100% Status would be sufficient for most of the Enemies you're facing up to ~lv80.
yadda yadda, removing all of their Armor isn't as important as Killing them and once you remove almost all of their Armor the probability that it has already died before you remove some more becomes pretty high.

i'm not very interested in removing as many obstacles as possible as i am at Killing them, and so in general the difference between a dozen Corrosive Status and half a dozen or a dozen more, isn't all that great because after the first dozen you probably have Killed it already. removing all of the Armor is great for when your methods of applying Damage don't deal any Damage to begin with, but i wouldn't presume that Players have unmodded Guns or Et Cetera, that's not a likely scenario.

 

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So with Saryn, the initial change here is to make sure that you can't build a max-range Saryn, load up a Molt with Spores, hit it with a Penta, and then everything around starts taking DoT of about 25% of that Penta's blast per tick and is dead before you see it. Because that's not how people were supposed to use the Molt/Spores combo, in their opinion.

...
you literally can't do that. Molt is not an Enemy. you can't apply Toxin Status to it. mfw people are theorycrafting about what AoE Toxin Weapon is the best when all they do is shoot it at Molt, where it literally doesn't matter because you can't transfer Toxin with Molt.

people AFKFarming with Saryn using Molt are completely relying on the Damage of Spores by itself to Kill Enemies. which is why they have as much Range and Strength as possible, to overlap the Damage as much as they can so that the low Damage per Spore is increased enough to Kill Trash Units.
i don't understand why everybody says they're doing that when they aren't.

Toxin. Transfer. does. not. come. into. play. Hosted. off. of. Molt.
try an Enemy as the Host instead, pl0x.

 

(and if the changes go through as is max Range will become mandatory anyways, but that's par for the course in Warframe i guess - Players that aren't all using the exact same Mod Loadouts is frowned upon by the game, always gotta force Players to all do the same thing, one thing, and one way.)

[Birdframe_Prime]

Look, @taiiat you keep arguing with me to try and prove me wrong, but that doesn't change anything at all here.

You can argue until your face is blue about what you know or think you know better than me. You want to say you can't transfer massive damage off Molt? Fine, you can show me a video that argues that, and I'll take that at face value. Well done. So why are DE removing exactly that function? Why are they literally taking that part away and making a point of saying it's because of that combo, if you say it doesn't work? Appealing to logic here, because it must work in some capacity, otherwise people wouldn't be using it enough that DE think it's a problem.

But you can't tell me that putting a Status on Miasma for six ticks is 'strong enough' right after trying to say that putting corrosive status on an ability that ticks once for each spore on the enemy (three times a second, considering they're not changing the number of Spores so far) isn't stronger. Especially when it will make the actual damage from Miasma stronger when you do hit with it, because a stripped enemy will be taking viral to the actual Flesh, which is a 50-75% bonus.

Still.

You're also missing the point.

The point being that the new system, even over everything you've stated can be achieved by the current one, will be both a buff to what she can do, and a simplification of all these interactions you're so adamant you know better than the people that made them. For the simple reason of sustain over burst. The kit is better rounded, even if she can't hit immediately for the damage you're used to, it will still hit that damage, and it will do it consistently, across a wider area, and she'll be better able to survive long enough to do even more.

I'm completely confident in that, and you don't have to agree with me. You, just like me, will have to go test it when it arrives to see who is right about it.

What we have now is going away, doesn't matter what you point out about whether the current system is strong or not, it's not going to exist, potentially as soon as Wednesday.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You can argue until your face is blue about what you know or think you know better than me. You want to say you can't transfer massive damage off Molt? Fine, you can show me a video that argues that, and I'll take that at face value. Well done. So why are DE removing exactly that function? Why are they literally taking that part away and making a point of saying it's because of that combo, if you say it doesn't work? Appealing to logic here, because it must work in some capacity, otherwise people wouldn't be using it enough that DE think it's a problem.

AFKFarming with Spores Hosted from Molt is about mapwiping weak Enemies. Saryn has the capability to do a lot more Damage than that, but Players are only using it to AFK short Lv20-30 Missions so basically any Damage is sufficient, and Spores is just able to reach a wider area than anything else so it can Kill the most things. so they ignore the stronger stuff because they don't need to put in effort for more Damage because the Enemies they're trying to Kill only have a few hundred Health in the first place.
no, you cannot transfer 'massive Damage' off of Molt. you can use it to radiate many, many instances of small Damage across a wide area. but that's about it.

aside from losing the capability of useful Mechanics that Spores could GIVE Molt, rather than the other way round, i have no qualms about forcing Players to use the Warframe instead of just AFK'ing while Casting Spores. it's a shame to lose Synergy opportunities but removing Synergy is the intention i guess, and it's not like anything will change before it gets pushed to live, only weeks (or years) after.
because of how ineffective just radiating Spores on their own is, go right ahead - that would be great almost in a vacuum since it would force Players to learn how to do the real Damage with Saryn to Kill high Level Enemies - though since again pretty much everything else is being gutted to an automatic Ability with no thought involved, it won't really change anything for the Players that were just AFK, because the new Abilities all all about going AFK.

you could say, that i'm not super enthusiastic about the 'solution' to some Players being AFK, is removing all of the active mechanics from Saryn, and making AFK'ing Abilities and forcing ME to be AFK. but now i'll have to be, because the Abilities are completely automated. my existence as a Player will be irrelevant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited May 14, 2018 by taiiat

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

 

 

alright, i guess it's time for facts, to teach people how Saryn actually works.

when Toxin Status is transferred by Spores, the Toxin Status also increases the Spore Burst Damage. which means that the Viral Damage Bursts that can hit all of the Enemies within Range.... go from 20 Base Damage exploding in an AoE to adding on what you've got from Toxin Status...
which means the Bursting can be easily giving 5 digit Damage to each Spore Burst(or much, much higher but that's an easy number to reach) - so more AoE Damage than a Penta, per Spore Burst.

The toxin proc is what's enabling the damage on the spores.  Not the spores being viral.  Viral damage has nothing to do with anything here.

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

THAT, is how Saryn Kills high Level Enemies. and why i try to educate people so often that Toxic Lash is a keystone to the entire Warframe - it scales with your Melee Weapon, and therefore Toxic Lash also scales with Blood Rush and Condition Overload. and by extension so does the entire Warframe.
so when you're nuking things with Saryn via Spores and Toxin Status/Toxic Lash - the Toxin Status isn't what's doing most of the Damage. it's the Toxin Status increasing the Damage of Spores, and being reflected between all Enemies in Range, many, many times.

Still irrelevant.  without the toxin the spores wouldn't be doing amazing damage.

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

 

unfortunately ofcourse, this is made to only work effectively with Melee via Blood Rush & Condition Overload, or a Sniper Rifle because the transfer is extremely bad at taking multiple Toxin Status (a deliberate bug as i mentioned previously, a "well we made a good mechanic that is themed perfectly but decided we didn't want it to work because it would be effective without requiring specific Equipment" meh).

- - - - - 

 

 

actually, the plan is going to remove everything but AFK. it's going to become even more of an AFK Ability because the one Mechanic it's going to work on is literally automatic and you just stand back and watch it while spreading it from time to time.
literally AFK.

I really don't think AFK is going to be a thing.  The spores won't be out right killing people immediately.  that takes time.  Until then you should be moving around popping spores and killing.

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

no, if an Enemy has Ferrite Armor, once the Armor is Stripped, Corrosive Damage Modifiers no longer apply. then it would be their Flesh that Corrosive doesn't get a Bonus to.

my b.

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

but you haven't even addressed that i made it abundantly clear that Spores applying Corrosive Status and Miasma applying Viral Status is backwards. because of the relative cost and how long the Status Effect is useful on an Enemy (since Saryn is a DoT and duration Damage themed Warframe). Corrosive has much less long term value because applying more after the Armor is gone is useless, while keeping Viral from expiring is useful until the Enemy is dead.

Perma armor strip>temp half health that still has damage reduction to deal with.

On 2018-05-13 at 6:45 PM, taiiat said:

no i said the Damage Type isn't important, because as Viral Saryn can already Burst for big numbers through their Armor. Damage Type and Status Effect are different words, so...

Damage Loss will be via Spores AFK'ing the Enemies to death and Killing all of the Enemies in the general area and resetting the 'infinite Scaling' repeatedly throughout the Mission. which is the only way it isn't an AFK Ability, when you need to wait for new Enemies to Spawn to Cast it again and then go AFK until it runs out next time.
and Toxic Lash is..... basically pointless with the proposed changes - because all of the Synergy was deleted out of the Abilities. Toxin Status is irrelevant to the other Abilities, Molt doesn't interact with the other Abilities at all, Miasma only interacts via a Binary 'has Spores on it or not'.... a Warframe that was built on mixing DoT themes together, having all of that just completely deleted, because reasons.
(and ofcourse Miasma will still be functionally useless because of it being such an old bland Ability, but now you have to Spam it constantly for the Viral Status, to 'make it good' by forcing you to have to pay a comical amount of Energy for just Viral Status since it doesn't do anything other than Viral Status)

 

(btw why are you bringing up halving Health so much? like 50 times in one Post? Viral Status is only one part of what Saryn currently does. there's a lot more involved with how Saryn is effective than just Viral Status. the Viral Status on every Enemy is just an icing on the cake)

Viral isn't doing the damage.  it's the multiplier gained from toxin proc.  Viral gets no bonus vs armor and it doesn't go through armor.  Toxic lash isn't relevant now? lol okay.  Toxin damage ignores shields and damages health.  toxin is a corpus killer.  The only person spamming miasma post update would be you.  Because you seem to value half health way too much.  I keep talking about halving health because you keep insisting viral as a status/damage is amazing when it's not.  Your last snippit is basically strawmanning and I won't have it.  Good day.