Why Saryn?

[VampirePirate]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Look at the developer workshop tab. Saryn is getting reworked.

Ember isn’t very useful anymore. Her Damage should scale like Saryn. However, people will then complain that she’s too OP and then she’ll get nerfed again. But they Saryn, a frame that does way better than Ember, gets a buff... Balderdash!

I looked at it.

[PsiWarp]

According to Prime Time, it's because Pablo had spare time in February to follow up with his changes on Saryn. She was the first frame he worked on, so the synergies he added to her were a bit complicated compared to Nidus and Harrow. Then he read the feedback on her first revisit and here we are with 2.0, trying to streamline and simplify her synergies.

I am curious to see if the pseudo-infinite duration and damage on Spores will go through. This is like unending DoT procs on Stasis-ed, frozen and glassed enemies except made a legit feature in Saryn's kit.

[-QUILL_PETER-]

Basically 2 reasons:

-her kit was needlessly convoluted and it's synergies were forced and confusing

-DE strongly dislikes, and for good reason, the anti-play playstyle. Not only does this make her kit more interactive, but makes it more powerful anyway. 

I really don't understand why people have so little faith in DE. Imperfect as they are, they always deliver in the end.

[hellodownthere]

3 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

You think so?

Enemies with 0 Armor (any good premade has 4x CPanyways) won't  be affected by the procs.

But with 3 procs of Viral (yes that is possible) enemies have only have 12.5% HP left.

Not hard math to know Viral is straight better

You do know that viral can only proc once right ? so no not 12.5%hp still just 50%hp

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

The only 2 "nerfs" I read was the energy reduction synergies disappearing and miasma not being a spammable stun.  Everything else seems better.

[sixmille]

il y a 51 minutes, -QUILL_PETER- a dit :

Basically 2 reasons:

-her kit was needlessly convoluted and it's synergies were forced and confusing

-DE strongly dislikes, and for good reason, the anti-play playstyle. Not only does this make her kit more interactive, but makes it more powerful anyway. 

I really don't understand why people have so little faith in DE. Imperfect as they are, they always deliver in the end.

The fun fact now is that you can AFK and let the spores kill stuff while you're hiding in a spawn closet. If anything, infinite scaling is the epitome of AFK. It's what's happening with Octavia and it will happen with Saryn too. I really don't understand what's hard to understand about this. It's a copy/pasta from octavia's 1 and this one is used in every AFK situation.

[NaoEthelia]

8 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

You think so?

Enemies with 0 Armor (any good premade has 4x CPanyways) won't  be affected by the procs.

But with 3 procs of Viral (yes that is possible) enemies have only have 12.5% HP left.

Not hard math to know Viral is straight better

Yes, let's all use a bandaid solution to ignore a completely broken system.

Frames shouldn't be balanced around 4CP when the disease is the armor. It's the armor scaling that needs fixing.

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[ZodiacShinryu]

1 hour ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

-her kit was needlessly convoluted and it's synergies were forced and confusing

I don't like when people call it "forced". It was certainly incentivized but it isn't what I called forced. Its like saying "must" have 10-13 status procs on an enemy for Condition Overload as "forced". Whenever you augment something based on a condition you only feel "forced" because there is a maximum that you aren't realizing all the time. However, Saryn's synergies were "fundamentally simple" so much so that getting the most out of her kit was as simple as doing what you are suppose to be doing as Saryn... popping spores and spreading toxin. When I am lazy it was a simple as a gas Zenistar and a bunch of fodder running through with Spores.

Confusing I can agree with. Based on most people's reactions, I'd say most the player base didn't know you could spread toxin in the first place, then compound that with the people that did know didn't understand how it actually worked. To get toxin to spread meant the target had to have toxin proc on them first before a Spore was popped not simply popping a Spore with toxin damage or with Toxin Lash. Ultimately it meant that people didn't spread toxin a lot because you can't proc on a dead body (aka OHKs). That being said. though numerous community members asked for clarification on a "spread discrepancy" whether a bug or feature turns out DE did have some idea what was happening. From the Primetime Pablo said you could only spread toxin once and only to targets that didn't have toxin before which makes sense now when you look at why some people got huge toxin spreads while others got weak spreads. If you spread a weak proc you weren't going to be able to spread a better one until it wore off and that wasn't going to happen as long as Spores was trucking along.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

The fun fact now is that you can AFK and let the spores kill stuff while you're hiding in a spawn closet. If anything, infinite scaling is the epitome of AFK. It's what's happening with Octavia and it will happen with Saryn too. I really don't understand what's hard to understand about this. It's a copy/pasta from octavia's 1 and this one is used in every AFK situation.

That is true and possibly not true. Under what the dev-workshop has outlined currently and the small demo in Primetime, there is a certain amount of maintenance you have to contribute to Spores now. You can only cast Spores ONCE with the rework; if you cast it again you pop them and have to start all over. So there can be situations where you kill all the enemies and will have to reengage with a new wave at base values, at best. At worst you have a few stragglers alive but out of view, actively preventing you from spreading (while you are dealing with non affected enemies) without reengaging or just scraping your current spores and recasting a new set at base value again. As the level goes up and time goes on, every reset of Spores could be brutal. Octavia gets around all of that by taking the enemy and scaling against them directly. Saryn and Octavia are completely different in function in this regard.

---

With all of that, as a dev-concept, Saryn could still be very powerful (on paper she sounds more powerful than she is now). But until we actually see what makes it through into our hands, there are certain... issues... that will make Saryn much weaker than she is now if the concept gets toned down from what it is currently. That being said Molt and Toxin Lash (which I didn't expect them to move it to guns as well) are buffs none the less.

[-QUILL_PETER-]

Just now, ZodiacShinryu said:

I don't like when people call it "forced"

Pablo himself, the programmer who designed her kit, said that her synergies were forced, and a very knowledgeable Warframe YouTuber brought mechanics of Saryn's kit to his attention that even he didn't understand what the heck what going on with her kit. Hence he's decided to take another look at Saryn and apply all that he's learned since then to bring Saryn's kit up to par.

[NoLazyShadow]

ye..why Saryn? Valkyr, Limbo, Ember, useless khora, Gara, Titania, Vukong, Zephyr...they all need rework..but DE reworking saryn....oh

[-ToT-CrackCook]

Saryn did NOT need this.
equinox and banshee are ALOT more cheesy, saryn instead of banshee? WHY thats dumb DE
and ember instead of equinox when eq always had more range and dmg.... 
MAKE SOME GOOD CHOICES

[-ToT-CrackCook]

Saryn didnt need this tho.
other frames really do need reworks... saryn was fine...
noone complained about her... period.

 

 

 

go nerf banshee and equinox. smh DE

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb MickThejaguar:

 Saryn currently has a fully functioning kit with no real useless abilities, and there's a few builds for her that can make use of all of her components. 

 

Yeah, no. Both molt and toxic lash are indeed borderline useless, viral was missplaced for the one ability that's been spamming enemys with proccs and her entire synergy with toxin was unfunctional past day one or so. Spores hardly did damage due to that but still outclassed miasama.

Low level cheese and a hand full of fans saying otherwise hardly changes how desperately she needs it.

 

I don't even get why people are even against it... every change is arguably a LOT better from what it is.

Edited May 11, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Irisena]

It's a shame they picked saryn tho. Don't get me wrong, i love her planned changes. But at the same time, i wonder why so many underwhelming frames left untouched for years now.

- Titania: only useful for cheap archwing experience. 

- Nezha: feels like Rhino made in China

- Equinox: if DE's argument is saryn is too complicated, then this one beats her to the knee in term of complexity

- Khora: useless as usual

- Octavia: need dire changes because gamebreaking OP ability, boring as hell gameplay, forced synergy between her 1, 2, and 4

And many other unlisted here still need changes. Hope to hear more in devstream today

[Irisena]

It's a shame they picked saryn tho. Don't get me wrong, i love her planned changes. But at the same time, i wonder why so many underwhelming frames left untouched for years now.

- Titania: only useful for cheap archwing experience. 

- Nezha: feels like Rhino made in China

- Equinox: if DE's argument is saryn is too complicated, then this one beats her to the knee in term of complexity

- Khora: useless as usual

- Octavia: need dire changes because gamebreaking OP ability, boring as hell gameplay, forced synergy between her 1, 2, and 4

And many other unlisted here still need changes. Hope to hear more in devstream today

[Morthal]

7 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Lmao, Viral proc cuts down HP by 50% ONCE. Further procs WILL ONLY refresh the DURATION. 

 

You should educate yourself on the game's mechanics first.

Speaking of which, did you know that Corrosive is permanent 25% reduction of current armor? Unlike Viral damage status, it doesn't need to be refreshed, which is exactly why on all other warframes, it comes as a % removed from enemy on hit. Common sense, simple, basic logic. The elemental change is a nerf and there's no argument against that. Whine all you want about the players who's brains are functioning properly >_< the facts are set in stone until DE changes the damage system in place.

[Morthal]

The answer is @[DE]Pablo 

If you watch the Prime Time pre-show, you'll see that this revisit was in the works since February I think. And the claim is that it was in no way influenced by data from Elite Onslaught Sanctuary. Working in the past, with one of the largest publishers on the planet, I find the last part difficult to believe however. Changes are made on the fly with any new data available and in ye olde tymes even then, that data was shared through intranet, instantly from testers to the devs and back again. 

But hey, DE is a small team and a superb one at that, I'd say one of the last bastions of hope for PC gaming, even CDProject Red seems to be looking down that dark pathway that leads to Steam 😐 

Point is I guess, give Pablo time to truly think on these changes after implementation. New data will show just how utterly useless it is to create yet another 'spam 4' nuke frame and maybe, we'll get some decent news about WUKONG, TITANIA, LIMBO, SPACE MOM....anyone but Saryn.

[NaoEthelia]

29 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Speaking of which, did you know that Corrosive is permanent 25% reduction of current armor? Unlike Viral damage status, it doesn't need to be refreshed, which is exactly why on all other warframes, it comes as a % removed from enemy on hit. Common sense, simple, basic logic. The elemental change is a nerf and there's no argument against that. Whine all you want about the players who's brains are functioning properly >_< the facts are set in stone until DE changes the damage system in place.

What? Armor reduction is much better than half HP later on.

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Darkmatt3r]

b8 m8

[XenMaster]

wait, isnt her new 2.0 Molt give her a little bit of defense or no? I just read its description it only absorb damage in certain time like Rhino's Iron Skin. Still, the 2.0 is still in experimental. Hopefully her Molt is tougher to draw enemy heavy fire.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Weeb

Framist

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Speaking of which, did you know that Corrosive is permanent 25% reduction of current armor? Unlike Viral damage status, it doesn't need to be refreshed, which is exactly why on all other warframes, it comes as a % removed from enemy on hit. Common sense, simple, basic logic. The elemental change is a nerf and there's no argument against that. Whine all you want about the players who's brains are functioning properly >_< the facts are set in stone until DE changes the damage system in place.

Except additional Corrosive procs further lower armour for each proc. Both benefit from re-application, but Corrosive benefits more from faster re-application, which it seems the spores provide over miasma. Therefore, at least for certain setups and against certain factions, this reduces EHP to a greater degree and with greater efficiency and is, thus, not a nerf.

There's my argument against it. You two have fun now.

[Morthal]

17 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

What? Armor reduction is much better than half HP later on.

Later on what? Half HP on a target that has no armor but, has 4000000 Heath....hhhhmmmmmmmm which would be more useful I wonder.😆

[NaoEthelia]

6 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Later on what? Half HP on a target that has no armor but, has 4000000 Heath....hhhhmmmmmmmm which would be more useful I wonder.😆

Corrosive. Assuming enemies are already at that level, Grineers will already have several trillions of EHP due to armor.

Which would be easier to kill, a target with Halved HP of 2,000,000 Health but 99.9999% Damage reduction, or a target with full 4,000,000 Health but 0% damage reduction?

4,000,000 EHP is faster to kill than 2,000,000,000,000 EHP.

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Morthal]

12 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Except additional Corrosive procs further lower armour for each proc. Both benefit from re-application, but Corrosive benefits more from faster re-application, which it seems the spores provide over miasma. Therefore, at least for certain setups and against certain factions, this reduces EHP to a greater degree and with greater efficiency and is, thus, not a nerf.

There's my argument against it. You two have fun now.

Nice try but as you can see in the video, even with unlimited damage gains, corrosive spore is not only less effective at stripping armor than most weapons and obviously CP, but it does trivial damage once the armor is gone. That's because the damage bonus is also gone. With Viral status and unlimited damage gains, well gee golly mister, I think you can figure it out.