Why Saryn?

[NaoEthelia]

1 hour ago, Morthal said:

Nice try but as you can see in the video, even with unlimited damage gains, corrosive spore is not only less effective at stripping armor than most weapons and obviously CP, but it does trivial damage once the armor is gone. That's because the damage bonus is also gone. With Viral status and unlimited damage gains, well gee golly mister, I think you can figure it out. 

Nice try but it's a pretty common thing that Viral is completely outscaled by Corrosive.

1 hour ago, NaoEthelia said:

Which would be easier to kill, a target with Halved HP of 2,000,000 Health but 99.9999% Damage reduction, or a target with full 4,000,000 Health but 0% damage reduction?

4,000,000 EHP (Corrosive) is faster to kill than 2,000,000,000,000 EHP (Viral).

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Morthal]

4 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

Corrosive. Assuming enemies are already at that level, Grineers will already have several trillions of EHP due to armor.

Which would be easier to kill, a target with Halved HP of 2,000,000 Health but 99.9999% Damage reduction, or a target with full 4,000,000 Health but 0% damage reduction?

4,000,000 EHP is faster to kill than 2,000,000,000,000 EHP.

The level is irrelevant to the percentage done, it's not complicated math no matter how much HP or armor an enemy has, VIRAL is more effective on all targets, once armor is removed via Corrosive Projection, Avalanche, Mag nuke, weapons or otherwise. I have spent so many hours now, seeing this, either from guys who spend 1 hour in survival missions or 3 hours or more, it's viral that is arguably one of the best debuffs you can get and only Saryn can provide with such skill.

[NaoEthelia]

53 minutes ago, Morthal said:

The level is irrelevant to the percentage done, it's not complicated math no matter how much HP or armor an enemy has, VIRAL is more effective on all targets, once armor is removed via Corrosive Projection, Avalanche, Mag nuke, weapons or otherwise. I have spent so many hours now, seeing this, either from guys who spend 1 hour in survival missions or 3 hours or more, it's viral that is arguably one of the best debuffs you can get and only Saryn can provide with such skill.

Before you continue...

4 hours ago, NaoEthelia said:

Yes, let's all use a bandaid solution to ignore a completely broken system.

Frames shouldn't be balanced around 4CP when the disease is the armor. It's the armor scaling that needs fixing.

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Nice try but as you can see in the video, even with unlimited damage gains, corrosive spore is not only less effective at stripping armor than most weapons and obviously CP, but it does trivial damage once the armor is gone. That's because the damage bonus is also gone. With Viral status and unlimited damage gains, well gee golly mister, I think you can figure it out. 

Nice try but as I said:

Quote

at least for certain setups and against certain factions

So saying that other things can do it better does not refute my point, nor does it refute the fact that I presented an argument you said doesn't exist (even if it doesn't convince you). 😛

Being real for a second: this change has an absurd number of external factors. Which factions? What setups? Proc chance scales with power strength so what if that's maxed out? Are we allowing for the frame to have a focus on corrosive so weapons can have a focus on viral instead and they can up-keep viral procs via a slower, more powerful firearm or melee weapon? Like I said, viral doesn't benefit from faster re-applications, so RoF plays into it much less. What if there isn't 4CP? What if the player ensures they don't remove all of the armour but only a hefty percentage of it to maintain damage bonuses for armour (for other weapons) with much lower damage resistances, which can be done faster but still in a controlled manner via the new spores? This also isn't the final setup. What if they decide to adjust the proc chance further so armour strips faster? Or the tick rates are bumped up? Have you crunched the numbers for all those scenarios? Are the toob waters mixed?

To say there is no argument against your opinion is to ignore a wealth of other variables that obscure the truth. Which is totally your call, you are your own individual. But treating your opinion like gospel doesn't really help much, particularly when the smarter idea as far as I can see it would be to collaborate with others to work out those scenarios and determine what kind of impact it actually will have.

So, like I said: you two have fun.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

Why is this happening? Because quite a number of you dorks here complain about things that work and work well not working. Low and behold DE actually does actually listen to feedback and we get Saryn another buff which some of you dorks insist is a nerf, what else is new.

I mean not to say I 100% agree with the nerf cries.  But it is a nerf in one area and a buff to others.

As far as i've understood all toxin synergies with her kit are gone.  and that's where most of her kits damage was at.

If I understand the changes she's gone from being a solo bursty frame to a high end game team support frame with armor strip and viral proc.

I'm going to give the rework a chance.  But i'm just not seeing where damage lies with the new kit.  and i'm not too happy that she doesn't seem very solo capable now.

[Ozamchist]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean not to say I 100% agree with the nerf cries.  But it is a nerf in one area and a buff to others.

As far as i've understood all toxin synergies with her kit are gone.  and that's where most of her kits damage was at.

If I understand the changes she's gone from being a solo bursty frame to a high end game team support frame with armor strip and viral proc.

I'm going to give the rework a chance.  But i'm just not seeing where damage lies with the new kit.  and i'm not too happy that she doesn't seem very solo capable now.

Are.You. KIDDING ME!?

She's even more solo capable with the rework!

the ability to strip armor, the speed buff, the doubled toxic lash damage for melee, being able to use it on guns. 

If they release this rework as intended I'LL HEKKING DAMN SHOW YOU HOW IT'S A BUFF TO EVERYTHING.

[Ozamchist]

9 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

This rant is against the players, not the rework.

 

Quick and straight to the point: You guys NEED to stop screaming "nerf", "RIP X Warframe" without first playtesting or even reading properly; it's cringy and pathetic. Saryn is getting a HUGE buff. Don't fear change, for f**ks sake.

 

Spores now dealing Corrosive? Buffed. You need several Corrosive procs for armor to be truly affected. Spores dealing lots of instances of damage with a 50% status chance pretty much guarantees map wide armor stripping. Viral was unnecessary, since one proc is all you need and further procs won't strengthen the effect.

Molt? Buff.

 

Toxic Lash? Buff.

 

Miasma changed to Viral? BUFFED! Unlike Corrosive, you only need a SINGLE Viral proc to make the damage type worthwhile. While Spores is busy chewing through armor, Miasma will obliterate the now armorless enemies. Having Miasma deal Viral is MUCH more efficient than having it deal Corrosive.

 

Seriously, that Developer Worshop comment section was cancer. Bunch of babies.

Oh god I thought I was alone in this madness. Thank you for being here you beautiful human bean.

[Morthal]

43 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

Before you continue...

 

True true. If it were just a single Grineer type that had tons of armor, there would likely be less of a need for bandaids all around.

[Morthal]

32 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Nice try but as I said:

So saying that other things can do it better does not refute my point, nor does it refute the fact that I presented an argument you said doesn't exist (even if it doesn't convince you). 😛

Being real for a second: this change has an absurd number of external factors. Which factions? What setups? Proc chance scales with power strength so what if that's maxed out? Are we allowing for the frame to have a focus on corrosive so weapons can have a focus on viral instead and they can up-keep viral procs via a slower, more powerful firearm or melee weapon? Like I said, viral doesn't benefit from faster re-applications, so RoF plays into it much less. What if there isn't 4CP? What if the player ensures they don't remove all of the armour but only a hefty percentage of it to maintain damage bonuses for armour (for other weapons) with much lower damage resistances, which can be done faster but still in a controlled manner via the new spores? This also isn't the final setup. What if they decide to adjust the proc chance further so armour strips faster? Or the tick rates are bumped up? Have you crunched the numbers for all those scenarios? Are the toob waters mixed?

To say there is no argument against your opinion is to ignore a wealth of other variables that obscure the truth. Which is totally your call, you are your own individual. But treating your opinion like gospel doesn't really help much, particularly when the smarter idea as far as I can see it would be to collaborate with others to work out those scenarios and determine what kind of impact it actually will have.

So, like I said: you two have fun.

Synergy was the entire point, without Saryn's map wide plague of continuous viral proc, she is just another spam 4 to win nuke. All variables lead to this conclusion.

[Ivan_Rid]

One Corrosive proc per second is literally nothing. Apply dozen procs on high level Bombard and its DR is still over 90%.

"Old" Spore has a direct weapon synergy, crazy good radial damage on condition, and no damage cap - I just dont see how the new one can compete.

Miasma is also nerfed lol, it was used for 3 second stagger, and now enemies are immune to consecutive staggers, also 350base x 4 is just plain up more than 500 x 2.

[NaoEthelia]

26 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

One Corrosive proc per second is literally nothing. Apply dozen procs on high level Bombard and its DR is still over 90%.

"Old" Spore has a direct weapon synergy, crazy good radial damage on condition, and no damage cap - I just dont see how the new one can compete.

Miasma is also nerfed lol, it was used for 3 second stagger, and now enemies are immune to consecutive staggers, also 350base x 4 is just plain up more than 500 x 2.

So much misinformation, it hurts.

Spore deals three Corrosive procs a second, not one. Each enemies can be latched with three Spores each dealing their individual damage and procs, so the speed of the armor strip is essentially tripled.

Also, Miasma's buff made it 500x6, not 500x2. 500x6 is far more than 350x4.

Edited May 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Threa]

11 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

This rant is against the players, not the rework.

 

Quick and straight to the point: You guys NEED to stop screaming "nerf", "RIP X Warframe" without first playtesting or even reading properly; it's cringy and pathetic. Saryn is getting a HUGE buff. Don't fear change, for f**ks sake.

 

 

So if we think Saryn's changes are nerfs we should playtest first, BUT if we think they're buffs (like you do) no playtesting is needed? Okay...

My point is, we shouldn't be calling these changes nerfs or buffs until they're all playtested.

[MickThejaguar]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Yeah, no. Both molt and toxic lash are indeed borderline useless

......what? Currently molt is how everyone spreads their spores around and the augments for both abilities are good for melee builds. 

[Guest]

For those people complaining about spreading viral, anyway, now you can do it with a max range build with high efficiency and completely ignore duration. Just pressing a different button to halve all enemy HP isn't that strenuous, considering now blind rage is no longer needed ... and Fleeting Expertise can go in there.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Out of all of the warframes in the game in need of a rework/update, why in Baro's name did you decide that Saryn was the most in need of an update?

Actually, this is really simple to explain:

We gave huge amounts of feedback over the years since her last rework, and if you've ever sat through one of the debates on whether Spores/Toxin combo is bugged or not, you'll know exactly how much effort people put in to figuring out whether there was a bug or not... Consistent threads on whether parts of her kit work, and now the more recent use of Saryn popping up in DE's statistics of the Molt/Spores burst-repeat combo that people are using the wrong way to speed-farm on low levels.

There have been literally thousands of threads on here and Reddit that ask for basic improvements to Saryn to allow her to be better than she is, and the content of them hasn't actually changed over the years. All the same changes have been requested over and over and over again.

So, with that? That's how DE has decided she needed looking at again.

Feedback actually worked.

Now we can move on and try getting similar looks at other frames.

[catastrophy]

I'm casul Saryn player. I just was setting out to explore the toxiprocs. I guess I'll figure those out but I have no idea how the changes will affect the gameplay. Will that mean she's gonna strip armour real good?

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

I don't even play Saryn but this cycle of nerfing everything that performs remotely well is getting sickening.  Stuff like Atterax+Meme Strike can stay forever.  Stuff like Limbo's stasis can affect everybody in the squad despite repeated complaints for YEARS.  Equinox can blink and in a moment cc and make everything for 7 miles bleed.  But oh boy, Saryn nuked the onslaught map, we better drive her into the ground.

Everytime a frame finds a niche, it's taken away.  Like come, hardly anybody was running Saryn before SO except the people who really liked her.  It's not like she was everybody's go-to frame to cheese... but nope, recent whispers on the forums say she's best for SO, which means DE has to come in and take our toys away.  "Oh, you used to abilities - you have a cast and forget build"

Pretty soon they're just going to take the powers away from all frames and justify it the same way. 

I still fnd it funny to this day that they made Nekros desecrate "cast and forget" and that was the SOLUTION for his build, yet for everybody other frame it is the forbidden zone.  
 

Edited May 11, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[TALISMAN_XVII]

10 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

Why is this happening? Because quite a number of you dorks here complain about things that work and work well not working. Low and behold DE actually does actually listen to feedback and we get Saryn another buff which some of you dorks insist is a nerf, what else is new.

It is a straight up nerf, anyone that plays Saryn a lot can see it. It's due to her being over used as the meta in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. It's the same scenario we previously saw with Chroma being used for Eidolon hunts. 

Corrosive spores will be useless against the Corpus and Infested, the ability to only case spores once will hinder the propagation of them, significantly effecting her range. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by TALISMAN_XVII
Grammar.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm almost completely for all of these changes, the Corrosive damage on Spores has no downsides against Flesh, so enemies already stripped of their armour will be taking straight damage to the face, while armoured enemies will lose that armour quickly enough with 2-3 procs per second that they'll lose all damage reduction very quickly (depending on the enemy it could take anywhere from 15 to 40 Corrosive procs to strip armour completely, so that's anywhere from 5 to 15 seconds, with the last few seconds taking them down from around 10 armour to 0, due to the game usually rounding up, meaning anything above 0.5 still equates to 1) across the entire room full of enemies, potentially.

Then, with the armour gone, Viral damage on Miasma will deal multiplied damage on any Flesh types that are protected by Armour (grineer and so on), which stacks with the double-damage for any enemy that has a Spore on them, and then stacks with the guaranteed Proc of Viral which sets the enemy to half health on the first tick and then refreshes the duration with every damage instance after that.

On top of that, Molt is getting a straight buff to Survivability, something that people have been asking for since the original rework. So even though it can't be a turret for spreading Spores anymore, it doesn't have to be since Spores is almost completely self-sustaining under the proposed changes.

AND, something I never, ever thought they would do? Straight up power-buff onto Toxic Lash. Now the current Lash will apply to all weapons, primary and secondary, and a buffed version of it will apply to your Melee. That, to me, is just an uber-buff. I'm so happy with that, because I genuinely thought it was something they wouldn't do.

The additional damage for all weapons, and most importantly that Toxin Status... Poison is based off 50% of the Base Damage plus 50% of the Toxin damage on your weapon per tick over 9 ticks, so by default, just by adding this proc onto your weapon you'll be dealing 30% extra base damage in the form of Toxin, and then the Proc (if you count in Saryn's Passive) will add 12 ticks of extra damage over time.

Think about that a moment; you hit with a Tiberon Prime for, let's say 5000 per bullet with no other elemental damage types equipped (just a number for calculation, I know the Tiberon can hit harder), which is 15000 overall due to the Burst. You've got 30% extra base damage per bullet on that from the ability, at base. So just for casting Lash for neutral strength you have 6500 per shot for a total of 19500 damage. That 1500 extra damage on each shot is in Toxin, so take the Base, plus the Toxin, for 6500 and cut it in half for 50%, which is 3250, this is what's dealt to your enemy for 12 ticks, which is 39000 damage per shot. For a total of three procs there, for 117000 just from the Toxin procs on the enemy. Lash just turned 15,000 damage per burst into 132,000.

The only downside is that the extra is delivered over 10 seconds, which is a little bit slow for most people, but still... damn... It's almost as good as Slash, except Bleed isn't affected by Armour, only the initial damage that caused it.

Anyway, I digress. Lash having double the strength on your melee that it currently does, plus that double-damage affecting her Augment to make the contagion clouds deal double damage too? I'm hyped.

So you've got ever-scaling Corrosive Damage on Spores, where currently it does 25 damage at base, and has a weird interaction with Toxin that people still aren't sure works... The status will strip armour so you're dealing your damage to their face quickly.

Your Molt now lasts a minimum of six seconds, where before a Sortie level enemy could breathe on it and burst it, allowing you to heal up, or block up a corridor since all the enemies are attacking it instead of following you.

Lash is now a straight-up damage buffing ability to all weapons you have, so doesn't limit you to melee anymore, but works better if you try it.

And Miasma will now be a radial proc and damage dealer to any un-armoured enemy in range with bonus damage for anything that has Spores on it...

This is actually looking really, really interesting to me.

With one exception. Saryn only has Molt to escape, her Miasma was the radial stun necessary to save her from worse situations where she needed actual CC and for enemies to stop shooting her or the objective. If enemies cannot be re-stunned after the stun duration ends... this could be an actual nerf. But we'll have to see whether the stun is made longer to match or not.

As a side note;

5 hours ago, CrackCook said:

noone complained about her... period.

You must be new to the forums... (actually, from your post count, you kind of are... at least on this account, I can't say if you've got an alt or not)

Saryn feedback threads have been present on the Forums asking for buffs to things like Molt, or changes to Miasma, or just to explain the actual interaction between Spores and Toxin Procs since her last rework.

In the last few months they've actually been actively complaining about the Molt/Spores combo nuking low level defenses for quick farming, too, much the same way people complain about Resonating Quake Banshee and Equinox doing the same.

This frame is, along with Ember, Banshee and Ash, one of the most consistently requested-to-be-updated frames since November 2015, and I've been here for most of them because she's one of my favourites.

[Ozamchist]

38 minutes ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

It is a straight up nerf, anyone that plays Saryn a lot can see it. It's due to her being over used as the meta in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. It's the same scenario we previously saw with Chroma being used for Eidolon hunts. 

Corrosive spores will be useless against the Corpus and Infested, the ability to only case spores once will hinder the propagation of them, significantly effecting her range. 

Anyone who actually used Saryn in full capacity would know the only reason the spores help against the corpus is that they transfer toxin which ignores shields this has very little to do with spores being viral. Also sorry to burst your bubble this rework has been in the works since February before onslaught was a thing. And trust me she'll be just as effective in onslaught post rework, no, more effective in onslaught if you dinguses don't mess it up. But if you actually knew how status procs work and how saryn's kit operates you would know this already.

These "it's a nerf" people sound like the people who claimed that her original rework was a nerf. I sickeningly look forward to this ridiculousness in the coming days.

Edited May 11, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[ZodiacShinryu]

7 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Pablo himself, the programmer who designed her kit, said that her synergies were forced,

I am not sure where I said the Dev were not people (because they are; and I saw the primetime so I know what he said). Pablo can say what ever he wants about his own design but that also doesn't necessarily make him correct about his own post-analysis (let alone the influence the years of that term being used every thread that comes up about her). I certainly don't agree with his position on "forced" more than any other person that have regurgitated it. It also doesn't inspire respect from me if the changes were born from a (opinionated term coming) misguided desire to fix a problem that wasn't there (and there were problems but it wasn't a synergy problem).  In the end its my opinion and everyone else is entitled to their opinion.

But considering the position, that the only real synergy in her kit was between Spores and Miasma where Miasma got 3x more damage if it hit enemies with the other toxin-based procs. Now if you (the royal "you" to be clear) say its "forced" to get that damage (which in the grand scheme of things never mattered) on Miasma would mean you just wanted to p4tw. In such a case, you aren't even using Saryn correctly let alone fully. If you used Spore (and you should because cutting the enemy health in half is incredibly powerful alone) and any toxin source (be it a primary or a secondary or melee or molt or toxin lash or even a teammate) where you were going to get your most robust chunk of damage anyway you could just throw out Miasma for a stun (which is all it was ever good for) and passively get the full benefits. If anything, he didn't even get rid of the problem because you still have to have Spores up to get max damage on Miasma and now you are pressured to use Miasma more because the powerful Viral debuff is attached to it. Why is the new rework any less "forced" than the last?

To make it simple, I don't see why there is a preserved struggle to get rewarded for things you should be doing in the first place.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

I sickeningly look forward to this ridiculousness in the coming days.

I've got my popcorn ^^ People who think this is a nerf haven't seen the Prime Time section on her.

The damage is amazing, enemies at low level die quickly still, and I can't wait to take this to something where she'll really shine, like Onslaught or Kuva Endless with their high spawn rates, that damage will ramp up so far that it's going to be amazing.

Meanwhile everyone I've read saying 'no Viral on 1 is a nerf' is stating equally ridiculous things in their comments about how they think Saryn works currently which show they have literally no experience with the frame, and make me laugh every time I read them. I even read in one thread somebody say 'nobody has ever complained about Saryn. Period.' and mean it...

I've got snacks, drinks and a bingo sheet whenever I go into Saryn threads now. It's fun!

I'm telling anyone reading this, Saryn is going to be absolutely insane. Just the buff to Lash is going to be completely nuts, since guaranteed Toxin procs on weapons will add around an extra dps to every weapon now, increasing further with every shot you take. Every weapon having a base 30% dps upgrade from the ability, plus the procs from each shot that lasts for 10 seconds with Saryn's passive means that you add a further 50% of your single-shot damage to your DPS per second, if you have a high fire rate, that could be three or four procs per second, so you're adding 200% dps just with the Status...

And that's not even getting into the fact that Viral is still part of the kit and will hit way harder from the way it's been changed too.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb -QUILL_PETER-:

-DE strongly dislikes, and for good reason, the anti-play playstyle. Not only does this make her kit more interactive, but makes it more powerful anyway.

well if that's the case i'm wondering why such skills keep popping up again and again. look what they did with banshee...

vor 11 Stunden schrieb -QUILL_PETER-:

I really don't understand why people have so little faith in DE. Imperfect as they are, they always deliver in the end.

see above. because for every cheese eliminated 2 new emerge like hydra heads. also EV (and quasi-inf pizzas) still being intact as worst offender as she is the enabler of one button gameplay par excellence (by press of a single button over and over, ironically).

[CarrotSalad]

8 hours ago, Irisena said:

- Titania: only useful for cheap archwing experience. 

They stealth nerfed her archwing experience now aswell...

She gets shredded to bits in instantly once in razorwing because no more evasion even when flying at speed

[MarcusGraves]

I have no problem with Saryn being next on getting a rework, as I see it, if they can get it done, then get it done. Just another frame balance done and off the list so they can move onto the next one.

That said, I've wanted Toxic Lash to work on guns for YEARS now and i'm finally getting my wish, and it's going to be absolutely disgusting, maybe even Contagion Cloud aug will finally see the light of day in builds.