Onslaught. The mess it causes and why it should not be a gamemode

[Fallen_Echo]

Simaris has done it, introduced a simulation what pleases the warriors of the system but theres just 2 big problems.

First of all this should not be a gamemode., why you ask:

Well looking at a typical onslaught run, you hop in the area and got thrown into a firefight with a continous swarm of enemies getting more and more powerful in each round. Those who wanna continue hop in the gate, those who dont stay behind.

This gamemode is essentially what most endless missions should be. Constant action, the need to utilize what you got in the best way and an extract feature what works great.

No mission in the whole starchart has this intense spawn features and even less have an extract feature what you can use to get out when you want without hindering your teammates.

Solo players for years could kill for fixed spawnrates and regular teamplayers would love to have to actually fight and not just wait for the enemy to start spawning after a mass nuking.

The spawnrates here should be applied to all endless areas.

Second knowing what i wrote upper onslaught should not be a balance point at all.

If ember would not got nerfed long before, she would get nerfed here because this gamemode requies fast killing to keep up efficiency and she would be good for that.

We already know now that after Saryn the next efficient onslaught frame what will get nerfed is trinity, her skill was never a problem in normal missions but shes too good here so prepare.

An area what has triple spawnrates than anything else is obviously going to show impressive numbers on anykind of aoe but not in normal missions.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

We already know now that after Saryn the next efficient onslaught frame what will get nerfed is trinity, her skill was never a problem in normal missions but shes too good here so prepare.

I don't see why she is in danger if your only evidence is "she's powerful". She's never not been powerful

Edited May 29, 2018 by TARINunit9

[------Solo------]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

I don't see why she is in danger if your only evidence is "she's powerful". She's never not been powerful

His point is that, in onslaught no matter which aoe frame you bring they will seem "poweful" mowing down anything that spawns there. 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

His point is that, in onslaught no matter which aoe frame you bring they will seem "poweful" mowing down anything that spawns there. 

She's been like that literally from day one. Farming T4 Def as fast as possible? You had a Trin with you to help your Nuke Saryns. 2 hour survivals? You had a Trin with you for the damage reduction so your Lokis could keep up the good work. Raids? You had a Trin with you to boost your Volts and Novas

Onslaught isn't revealing how mandatory Trin is, it's REMINDING us how mandatory Trin is. The devs have believed Trin to be perfectly fine for FIVE YEARS minus the occasional minor nerf

[krc473]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The devs have believed Trin to be perfectly fine for FIVE YEARS minus the occasional minor nerf

I love how you consider removing 100% damage resistance, in favour of 75% resistance a minor nerf.

 

Trinity really is mandatory for the energy. DE cannot expect people to kill large amounts of enemies quickly without energy. The only way to combat the ridiculously high drain rates is with AoE frames, so energy is required.

[------Solo------]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

She's been like that literally from day one. Farming T4 Def as fast as possible? You had a Trin with you to help your Nuke Saryns. 2 hour survivals? You had a Trin with you for the damage reduction so your Lokis could keep up the good work. Raids? You had a Trin with you to boost your Volts and Novas

Onslaught isn't revealing how mandatory Trin is, it's REMINDING us how mandatory Trin is. The devs have believed Trin to be perfectly fine for FIVE YEARS minus the occasional minor nerf

I was just making his feedback more clear, other than that i don't care if other frames get reworked, heck even trinity/equinox/mesa/etc. As for nuke trinity being old "meta" i already knew. It just got revived thanks to onslaught. 

[Airwolfen]

Lately the term "efficient" has simply become a cover to hide lazy play styles and I really do not care if those disappear. The Saryn rework was probably one of the worst. Another point not mentioned is that the change to saryn was a general improvement to her usability OUTSIDE onslaught, sure her spores don't auto spread anymore but the timer used to auto to zero making you start over all the time anyway.

And ember was to weak for the higher levels of elite onslaught anyway. Pre-nerf that is. Maybe the old overheat ember would have had a chance.

[Reifnir]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

She's been like that literally from day one. Farming T4 Def as fast as possible? You had a Trin with you to help your Nuke Saryns. 2 hour survivals? You had a Trin with you for the damage reduction so your Lokis could keep up the good work. Raids? You had a Trin with you to boost your Volts and Novas

Onslaught isn't revealing how mandatory Trin is, it's REMINDING us how mandatory Trin is. The devs have believed Trin to be perfectly fine for FIVE YEARS minus the occasional minor nerf

He probably meant the recently trending "Nuke Trin", aka the Sancti Castanas + Link combo that nukes maps no worse (if not better) than Saryn. And THAT is very likely to get nerfed into the ground, since it's hardly intended for a godlike support frame to be a top-tier nuker as well. 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

She's been like that literally from day one. Farming T4 Def as fast as possible? You had a Trin with you to help your Nuke Saryns. 2 hour survivals? You had a Trin with you for the damage reduction so your Lokis could keep up the good work. Raids? You had a Trin with you to boost your Volts and Novas

Onslaught isn't revealing how mandatory Trin is, it's REMINDING us how mandatory Trin is. The devs have believed Trin to be perfectly fine for FIVE YEARS minus the occasional minor nerf

Just like how chroma was a powerful self-buffer for ages then as soon as people turned him into the meta ediolon killer DE quickly fixed him.

They are not gonna nerf her because energy is mandatory, they gonna nerf the link bomber trinities because they can mow down enemies fast.

Abating link trinities become the meta to get throught the efficiency drain in So and since DE's attention is currently focusing on it to make sure everybody gets the same "fun" they gonna catch her soon unless we switch to the next BIG thing.

1 hour ago, Airwolfen said:

Lately the term "efficient" has simply become a cover to hide lazy play styles and I really do not care if those disappear. The Saryn rework was probably one of the worst. Another point not mentioned is that the change to saryn was a general improvement to her usability OUTSIDE onslaught, sure her spores don't auto spread anymore but the timer used to auto to zero making you start over all the time anyway.

And ember was to weak for the higher levels of elite onslaught anyway. Pre-nerf that is. Maybe the old overheat ember would have had a chance.

I disagree with the bolded part because its mainly on personal opinions. What is lazy and what is not, its personal preferance. For me the most lazy playstyle i can imagine is Mesa 4, even the macro spinners seemed to be more engaded than her.

 

Now for the main part, im not sure just how good he got outside of SO. The new spore system is technically a self killing circle. You cast spores, the damage ramps up, the targets die, decay. Recasting takes away from the accumulated damage unless you play in a high spawn area like SO you cant really use her reliably before enemies reach atleast lv60.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Lately the term "efficient" has simply become a cover to hide lazy play styles and I really do not care if those disappear. The Saryn rework was probably one of the worst. Another point not mentioned is that the change to saryn was a general improvement to her usability OUTSIDE onslaught, sure her spores don't auto spread anymore but the timer used to auto to zero making you start over all the time anyway.

And ember was to weak for the higher levels of elite onslaught anyway. Pre-nerf that is. Maybe the old overheat ember would have had a chance.

Except...the entire game is now balanced around the existence of these "lazy" styles. In fact, the game design is caught in this catch-22 handbasket to hell because:

-Players were allowed to grow grossly overpowered

-So enemies were also redesigned to be grossly OP, with nearly all of them possessing some form of input robbing or power negating, meaning that

-Players began to rely more and more on ultra efficient builds, so their cheese could erase the abject tedium of actually engaging the grossly overpowered enemies

The ONLY way out of this, is to blow up EVERYTHING and rebalance the entire game. And Riven mods clearly mean that, is not happening. This is where poor design decisions lead, when you keep piling on. Instead of clearing the sand and putting down a solid foundation, they built towers on the dunes. And the towers finally reached a height that they can feel the wind blowing. 

[Fallen_Echo]

54 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except...the entire game is now balanced around the existence of these "lazy" styles. In fact, the game design is caught in this catch-22 handbasket to hell because:

-Players were allowed to grow grossly overpowered

-So enemies were also redesigned to be grossly OP, with nearly all of them possessing some form of input robbing or power negating, meaning that

-Players began to rely more and more on ultra efficient builds, so their cheese could erase the abject tedium of actually engaging the grossly overpowered enemies

The ONLY way out of this, is to blow up EVERYTHING and rebalance the entire game. And Riven mods clearly mean that, is not happening. This is where poor design decisions lead, when you keep piling on. Instead of clearing the sand and putting down a solid foundation, they built towers on the dunes. And the towers finally reached a height that they can feel the wind blowing. 

We have entered a death spiral but it did not started from the players side.

DE created more and more tedious grind and topped it with the "cherry" the ridicolous scaling the enemies have.

After countless requests and threads made DE started to introduce mods to tackle the challange and this is where everything gone bad.

 

Now we are getting the game balanced around not the lazy styles you think of but the latests additions to missions.

Poe brought a bunch of nerfs to operators along with chromas nerf, Eso bought in changes to saryn after the gamemode was "rebalanced" to offer less rewards incase we want to cheese that madness for the extremely low drop rate parts.

The whole game is now getting balanced around the idea that X mission should be only done in one desired way on one desired efficiency level, if anything is better than that it gets nerfed till DE hops onto the next Big thing what they will balance around.

Venus openworld has several spy and stealth themed missions? Prepare to be nerfed stealth frames.

[Airwolfen]

58 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except...the entire game is now balanced around the existence of these "lazy" styles. In fact, the game design is caught in this catch-22 handbasket to hell because:

-Players were allowed to grow grossly overpowered

-So enemies were also redesigned to be grossly OP, with nearly all of them possessing some form of input robbing or power negating, meaning that

-Players began to rely more and more on ultra efficient builds, so their cheese could erase the abject tedium of actually engaging the grossly overpowered enemies

The ONLY way out of this, is to blow up EVERYTHING and rebalance the entire game. And Riven mods clearly mean that, is not happening. This is where poor design decisions lead, when you keep piling on. Instead of clearing the sand and putting down a solid foundation, they built towers on the dunes. And the towers finally reached a height that they can feel the wind blowing. 

Is it REALLY though? Sure warframe has fallen somewhat into a zone where people auto to those methods. But those methods were NEVER nessesary. People simply want the path of least effort and saryn showed that off perfectly.

At this point Saryn is perfectly solo able for use in Onslaught if one puts in the effort. If only effort was something people gave a damn about, it exists, it is perfectly viable. but people just ignore it.

[LuckyCharm]

Really though all balance gets thrown out the window when new weapons are added as much as they are. That and the lack of non-combat focused drops and rewards. 

Take an example : ether swords were best melee, scindo got buffed then it was best. Then galatine and jatkittag, then we got stuff like lesion and atterax, after that we had a few other things then scindo prime >fragor prime>war>galatine prime. And then rivens.  

Every time we got something new it seemed to be an improvement on the old weapons which only pushed up power levels. Same as mods. Every new non-utility mod seems to break something to make a new meta. The whole problem with this is that theres no baseline to balance to now. No average dps, no average cc time etc. Add to that the energy regen and then its all broken. 

What they really need to do is push mod power down and develop a base power level theyre happy with so they can actually balance stuff to be around the levels/difficulty they want rather than have to cheese us because we cheese everything else

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

Really though all balance gets thrown out the window when new weapons are added as much as they are. That and the lack of non-combat focused drops and rewards. 

Take an example : ether swords were best melee, scindo got buffed then it was best. Then galatine and jatkittag, then we got stuff like lesion and atterax, after that we had a few other things then scindo prime >fragor prime>war>galatine prime. And then rivens.  

Every time we got something new it seemed to be an improvement on the old weapons which only pushed up power levels. Same as mods. Every new non-utility mod seems to break something to make a new meta. The whole problem with this is that theres no baseline to balance to now. No average dps, no average cc time etc. Add to that the energy regen and then its all broken. 

What they really need to do is push mod power down and develop a base power level theyre happy with so they can actually balance stuff to be around the levels/difficulty they want rather than have to cheese us because we cheese everything else

The main problem is that DE is doing everything like its a sudden idea, haphazardly seemingly without thinking at all.

I mean look at the limbomb from limbos rework, they either didnt tested it at all or just gone with a "this is fine" mentality then realized it was not a good idea.

 

They could make the current game balanced around our power but they refuse to even add in any high level node, such level of change what you suggest is not just seems to be out of their league but they seemingly just dont want to bother with anything what would match our power.

[TARINunit9]

9 hours ago, krc473 said:

I love how you consider removing 100% damage resistance, in favour of 75% resistance a minor nerf.

Well yes, I really don't entertain people who think anything less than complete invulnerability is entirely unviable. I don't see why you expect me to be ashamed about that

[krc473]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't see why you expect me to be ashamed about that

That is good. Why would I expect you to be ashamed of that?

 

It was more a point of: "that was not a minor nerf". Removing invincibility (with unlimited range) in favour of a 75% resistance (50 m range) is quite a big nerf. I am not saying it was not warranted (let's be honest, it was OP).

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

Maybe we should make a gun first and then build a plane around it.

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

Maybe we should make a gun first and then build a plane around it.

You know that actually sounds more reasonable than:

Heres a new map where you get a triple damage bonus as baseline plus.

Oh almost forget we are decreasing the damage of all dps frames on all maps so they dont stand out when playing this mode.

[ShortCat]

20 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

We have entered a death spiral but it did not started from the players side.

DE created more and more tedious grind and topped it with the "cherry" the ridicolous scaling the enemies have.

After countless requests and threads made DE started to introduce mods to tackle the challange and this is where everything gone bad.

Warframe's playerbase has a huge impact on this development though. Back in the day when DE did the first level rebalance (almost 4 years ago) it was hard to last for 2 full rotations with a PUG team. At the same time, Rotation C had a guaratied Prime Part as a drop. 2 full rotaions meant lvl 60-70 enemies, this is exact the point whre armore scaling kicks in and gets ridiculous. People were asking for more buffs and reworks to tackle the chalange, and DE give up. Nothing changed untill now, every time a reasoable nerf request appers it gets mauled by a big part of the playerbase. 

Is DE innocent in this matter. Hell NO! Up till now they lack an open concept as what exactly Warframe is and isn't. They make statements and role back or abandon those entirely time after time.

17 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

They could make the current game balanced around our power but they refuse to even add in any high level node, such level of change what you suggest is not just seems to be out of their league but they seemingly just dont want to bother with anything what would match our power.

This is the worst move DE could do. As soon as such a game mode appears,and ESO is such a mode, it becomes a new benchmark for power level. Over time power creep will overcome this challange and a new benchmark will be necessary. Rinse and repeat.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

This game's combat system is a mile wide and half an inch deep. It doesn't matter who is at fault there...but it is the state of where we are right now and it goes beyond player power and can't be adequately fixed by an endless cycle of nerfs and buffs on just the player side of things while stacking new machnics that scale our power beyond anything the game requires. 

It really does need a thorough overhaul of enemy scaling, how damage works, how the AI functions, how immunities and resistances are implemented and how difficulty throughout the game progresses to balances the game between the experience of power and the experience of challenge. 

Any "challenge" thrown in the game are cheap tactics and mechanics. Examples are enemies hitting through walls, near perfect accuracy, near omniscient levels of awareness, insane armor scaling that only serves to induce cheese etc. 

 

[Fallen_Echo]

35 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

This is the worst move DE could do. As soon as such a game mode appears,and ESO is such a mode, it becomes a new benchmark for power level. Over time power creep will overcome this challange and a new benchmark will be necessary. Rinse and repeat.

Eso were never such a gamemode you are referring to. Before its bigger patch the enemies were scaled to be weak as hell and only now they added the "around starchart" scaling to it.

The only thing what made eso a benchmark spot is that it has high spawnrates what makes certain frames excell in the challange and this made DE nerf the gains to make sure we are not getting more than what they intented, thats why it has the scaling efficiency drain too. Making sure people fall out even if they doing their very best.

 

Unless DE want to rework the entire game from scratch (because everything is mixed into everything right now) their only way out of this madness is to create some system what puts us in missions matching our power levels.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Am 29.5.2018 um 10:12 schrieb Fallen_Echo:

If ember would not got nerfed long before, she would get nerfed here because this gamemode requies fast killing to keep up efficiency and she would be good for that.

Well, what mode doesn't benefit from fast killing tho with the exception of spy missions maybe? Frames OP in Onslaught will be OP pretty much anywhere.

[Klokwerkaos]

I like onslaught.  I like trinity.  I like the rewards.  I like the game mode.  I see no evidence that there is any reason your argument should be considered OP.

That said, Saryn is still viable.  I don't mind if trinity's link gets reworked as long as it's viable still like saryn and unlike ember (which is BS and everyone knows it, she's useless now).  Overall I don't see any reason this thread should exist other than to complain.

I don't think what applies here should apply everywhere, that's actually a bad move in my eyes.  You're not thinking about what it's like to be MR 4 anymore and struggle to make 20 min in any endless... your argument is bad and relies on your appeals to emotion rather than sound logic.

[Fallen_Echo]

57 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, what mode doesn't benefit from fast killing tho with the exception of spy missions maybe? Frames OP in Onslaught will be OP pretty much anywhere.

Theres a difference here, in no game mode expect Os you are requied to kill fast. You can do it but its not necesseary.

[Fallen_Echo]

30 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I like onslaught.  I like trinity.  I like the rewards.  I like the game mode.  I see no evidence that there is any reason your argument should be considered OP.

That said, Saryn is still viable.  I don't mind if trinity's link gets reworked as long as it's viable still like saryn and unlike ember (which is BS and everyone knows it, she's useless now).  Overall I don't see any reason this thread should exist other than to complain.

I don't think what applies here should apply everywhere, that's actually a bad move in my eyes.  You're not thinking about what it's like to be MR 4 anymore and struggle to make 20 min in any endless... your argument is bad and relies on your appeals to emotion rather than sound logic.

Would you mind which point you disagree with?

 

1.) That onslaught should have not been an unique gamemode but an actual update to all endless missions?

 

2.) Or that a new gamemode should not be an universal balance point especially if its this disconnected from the rest of the gamemodes?

 

Onslaught has the features many has asked for, a high level mission with increased spawnrates so we dont get bored while waiting for the next round of enemies spawning, it also has the nice extract feature what is asked for survival and excavation for ages.

Considering the spawn bonus no frame should get balanced around the fact how they work in onslaught because the area is crowded with enemies magnifying aoe capatibilities beyond what you can do in most maps.

Saryn is still viable yes, she was just altered to be less useful for SO, trinity link bombers will be the next one to be made less useful unless DE switches its attention to the next BIG thing.