Zenistar AoE not working through walls/objects

[Red_Tesseract]

So... I don't know if this is supposed to work like this with the changes to melee not going through objects/walls, or is just a consequence of those changes, but this seems to happen now:

Zenistar's AoE doesn't attacks through walls or objects anymore if the disc doesn't have line of sight. I tested it with walls, columns, and even smaller objects like the little... "handrails"?... around the defense point on Hydron. Always the same result: no damage done if there isn't a line of view.

If this is a feature and is meant to work this way now I would still want a confirmation if possible, thanks :)

If not... well, you are now aware of this "quirk" 😛 

 

With regards, Red Tesseract.

[Railgun]

All melees require line of sight and cannot hit through walls now. Smaller objects that a weapon should be able to hit past are being looked at.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

This is what happens when a company ignores people's warnings that something is an obviously bad decision and does it anyway because about 10% of players couldn't stop whining for melee to be nerfed. 

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

This is what happens when a company ignores people's warnings that something is an obviously bad decision and does it anyway because about 10% of players couldn't stop whining for melee to be nerfed. 

This is what happens when a company implements weapon and mod combinations that trivialize the game for anyone not using them. And you're silly if you think the people abusing these combos aren't also responsible for the nerf. Telos boltace, pre-nerf vex armor, and SS mirage were all abused and consequently nerfed, because these same people abused them.

In regards to OP: Yes, this is intentional. In an attempt to nerf meta cheese like spin2win abuse by spinning in a hard to reach corner, they've made weapons have line-of-sight in order to hit enemies. This of course extends to the Zenistar disk.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Duduminador]

WHy should it hit through obstacles? the Waves are clearly expanding outwards from the disc.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is what happens when a company implements weapon and mod combinations that trivialize the game for anyone not using them. And you're silly if you think the people abusing these combos aren't also responsible for the nerf.

In regards to OP: Yes, this is intentional. In an attempt to nerf meta cheese like spin2win abuse by spinning in a hard to reach corner, they've made weapons have line-of-sight in order to hit enemies. This of course extends to the Zenistar disk.

*eyerolls* every single problem they're having could have been solved by setting the punch through to 1.5. It solved the exploit without wrecking the melee system which is what they've done. Cry babies begging for nerfs ruin every game that listen to them. It happens over and over and in the end nobody ever takes responsibility for having asked the developer to destroy the game on their behalf.  1.5 punch through solves the whole of the problem. 

As for what you call "exploiters", they will just find something else to exploit, probably have already found something else to exploit, you cannot prevent someone determined to exploit a game from doing so. There is always a way. You can either except that and let people who are interested in enjoying the game do so, or you can ruin your game trying to play wack a mole with every little exploit until nobody can play your end game. Choosing to listen to nerf herders is 100% of the time a bad idea.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

*eyerolls* every single problem they're having could have been solved by setting the punch through to 1.5. It solved the exploit without wrecking the melee system which is what they've done. Cry babies begging for nerfs ruin every game that listen to them. It happens over and over and in the end nobody ever takes responsibility for having asked the developer to destroy the game on their behalf.  1.5 punch through solves the whole of the problem. 

As for what you call "exploiters", they will just find something else to exploit, probably have already found something else to exploit, you cannot prevent someone determined to exploit a game from doing so. There is always a way. You can either except that and let people who are interested in enjoying the game do so, or you can ruin your game trying to play wack a mole with every little exploit until nobody can play your end game. Choosing to listen to nerf herders is 100% of the time a bad idea.

You need more support. You actually understand stuff.

As for the Zeni-disc LoS nerf, & the LoS nerf in general, it was coming. No one should be defending wall ignoring attacks unless the explicit purpose of a weapon was to do exactly that.

Edited May 29, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[KochDerFrettchen]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

*eyerolls* every single problem they're having could have been solved by setting the punch through to 1.5. It solved the exploit without wrecking the melee system which is what they've done. Cry babies begging for nerfs ruin every game that listen to them. It happens over and over and in the end nobody ever takes responsibility for having asked the developer to destroy the game on their behalf.  1.5 punch through solves the whole of the problem. 

As for what you call "exploiters", they will just find something else to exploit, probably have already found something else to exploit, you cannot prevent someone determined to exploit a game from doing so. There is always a way. You can either except that and let people who are interested in enjoying the game do so, or you can ruin your game trying to play wack a mole with every little exploit until nobody can play your end game. Choosing to listen to nerf herders is 100% of the time a bad idea.

Yeah no, some things need to be toned down for the good of a game.  You can imagine people asking for things to be more reasonable as some angry monolith all you like, just know that it's... generally wrong. :v

Maybe you should stop being a 'cry baby' about no-brain spam items getting tweaked.

Pointless argument? Why'd you say anything to begin with, then?

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

1 hour ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Yeah no, some things need to be toned down for the good of a game.  You can imagine people asking for things to be more reasonable as some angry monolith all you like, just know that it's... generally wrong. :v

Maybe you should stop being a 'cry baby' about no-brain spam items getting tweaked.

Pointless argument? Why'd you say anything to begin with, then?

He just believes that Melee 3.0 is so bad that it shouldn't even be a consideration. I agree on some points of his, such as the range changes & weapon clipping. However, the LoS nerf is definitely a necessity. For all of his faulty points, his PoV on DE's behavior as a business isn't *entirely* wrong.

Doubling down on a rushed product change (Melee 3.0) just because the executives feelings were hurt by customers (players) not using their product (playing the game) as envisioned isn't smart.

I believe Melee 3.0 can be refined & tweaked so that it is good. Unfortunately no one wants to read or participate in my particularly lengthy topic about it. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[KochDerFrettchen]

5 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Doubling down on a rushed product change (Melee 3.0) just because the executives feelings were hurt by customers (players) not using their product (playing the game) as envisioned isn't smart.

The planned changes aren't perfect, but this is not entirely generated because Scott's (or anyone at DE's) feelings are hurt.  Players have been pointing out how ridiculous melee currently is for a long time :v

Edited May 30, 2018 by KochDerFrettchen

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

1 hour ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

The planned changes aren't perfect, but this is not entirely generated because Scott's (or anyone at DE's) are hurt.  Players have been pointing out how ridiculous melee currently is for a long time :v

Yep. I saw the Scoliac showcase. Lolwut? Definitely an exploit that's obviously unintentional & broke.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Tbh, they should give it its go thru walls thing, because you know it’s LoS is going to get caught on everything 

[AzureTerra]

Adapt. Get over the one trick pony you had and you'll be a better player for it

[Red_Tesseract]

Okay. When I wrote this it was more to inform/ask the team about this situation rather than start a debate about melee 3.0 and melee through walls. And I know the changes to melee in general are intentional, I just didn't think the AoE of Zenistar would get affected in the same way.

However, I was surprised about the changed effect, mostly because the AoE animation still seems to reach all places like it did before, and the 2D or "flat" animation doesn't reflect the 3D behaviour of LoS. So if it is intentional -which I'm still not sure: all of you just gave your opinion, without internal knowledge- then the animation should probably reflect this to avoid confusion.

And it doesn't help that the small disc can get stuck in any small hole, corner or protrusion, and then gets completely blocked by it.

 

Again: I don't mind if this change is permanent. I don't mind if it was a mistake due to all the changes. This post was to inform or be informed.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Melee through walls... Is it good that they tried to fix it as it was before? Yes. Did they do it right? I don't know. You don't know. Even DE probably doesn't know. I do believe they have the best intentions and if melee really gets worse they'll do something about it, but until now no one can empiricaly say if it's better or worse. You can have an opinion. Your opinion. But the data will show if they got the result they wanted after players get used to the change.

Now, on the topic of melee 3.0: I don't know if I'm going to like or not what's coming, neither do you. Wait and see.

[Morthal]

Was going to make a new topic about the Zenistar, not sure if it's a bug yet or intentional but either way, I don't like it. Here's a video from earlier today, showing how bad the LoS is on Zenistar's Disc. The sad thing is, the previous throw of the disc, in the exact same spot, was only hitting the gunner 😐

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Morthal

[NezuHimeSama]

melee LOS should not be affected by enemies at all. It should be terrain only, and should not apply to Zenistar's disk, as that visually penetrates walls, and is a form of area control.

[[DE]Momaw]

On 2018-05-30 at 3:50 PM, Red_Tesseract said:

I was surprised about the changed effect, mostly because the AoE animation still seems to reach all places like it did before

While melee respecting LOS is definitely something that needed to happen for balance reasons due to abuse of zenistar and whips with reach rivens,  Red_Tesseract has a valid point: the visuals now suggest the weapon does something that it really doesn't.

 

[NeithanDiniem]

6 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

melee LOS should not be affected by enemies at all. It should be terrain only, and should not apply to Zenistar's disk, as that visually penetrates walls, and is a form of area control.

They are working on making enemies and bodies, among other things, not block LoS with melee.

As for penetrating walls, no. It should follow the same rules. People abused it with max range already to do exactly this, which is why we even got this change to melee to begin with.

[NezuHimeSama]

That's what area control is about, though. That is Zenistar's utility.

[Astronomers]

What annoys me is that Loki's decoy is considered as an object, and therefore cannot be placed in the middle. Small inconvenience you'll say, but it's not even a tangible thing.. and an ally.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

We can all agree that melee shouldn’t punchthrough walls, right? Map walls. The borders surrounding a tileset. Doors even. I get that and it’s understandable. Is that fair enough? Yep.

However, the interior of the maps in question with objects and level geometry all over the place, the differentiating elevations of certain platforms in the tileset, and even down to how enemies spawn into the map... That’s where the rigidity of pure LoS on melee can haphazardly go wrong and ruin player experience and form factor. Why is it not fair for melee to have, at the very least, 1-1.5-2m fixed punchthrough? At that distance you won’t be able to punchthrough walls. You “could” punchthrough objects, level geometry, different elevations of the map, and maybe able to reach glitched enemies that spawned into the map unreachable by any other means. And this is not a matter of asking, requesting, or even begging for infinite punchthrough to come back for melee as well. Why, as I ask for all intents and purposes with reasonable sound mind, is the topic of having 1-1.5-2m punchthrough on melee such a revolting and ill-thought out request to ask for?

Edited June 2, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Well. Something you have to realize is that you cannot, and should not have, body punch through, without having a limited amount of physics punch through. I continue to go by 1.5 as a range I consider fair. But you're going to have to accept that that does grant at least a small amount of wall and surface penetration... 

Something you need to realize is that if you can cut through a heavily body armored grineer, including that plate armor, flesh, sinew, muscle, and bone, in one clean strike without reflecting off or even slowing down, that blade is going to bite deep into wall physics. I want you to imagine this as a sword master trying to slice through a side of beef, against the bone, wrapped in reinforced steel plate armor. If you can make that cut, you can cut through damned near anything. So unless the developer wants to institute a "weapon reflection" system where any time you swing and the blades trikes off an object that is harder than it is, they can do that... Which will require your melee weapon be not only elementally aligned but you'll also have to use appropriate physical, such as impact for energy shields, puncture for armor, and slash against infested...... Which right now they provide additional damage, but I mean full on require it just to get through their defenses. And while having your weapons bounce off any enemy that is not properly aligned may be more realistic, I don't think that DE is going to do that because as much as this has enflamed the community, that would set it full out on fire...
 

Edit, what I mean by weapon reflection. You try to hit something that your weapon isn't aligned to combat, it is going to bounce off and, stagger you with armor, stun you electrically with shields, or probably cut or slash at you with infested... You'd need to put serious thought into what weapon you use before every single deployment. I don't think anyone really wants "realism" because real suuuuuucks..... I'd say just put in the 1.5 punch through and embrace the space magic.

Edited June 3, 2018 by (PS4)Echo_X

[(PSN)darth_j_der]

I agree with maiming strike nerf. But its totally ruined the zenistar. I waited soooo long to get it now its useless. I.e. an enemy came into my zeni aura and survived long enough to put up a blunt and was then completely protected from my zeni. THATS NOT RIGHT. 

[KilluaWalker]

On 2018-05-29 at 12:02 PM, (PS4)Echo_X said:

This is what happens when a company ignores people's warnings that something is an obviously bad decision and does it anyway because about 10% of players couldn't stop whining for melee to be nerfed. 

Come on now that's a little unfair. Melee is by far the strongest class of weapons, no argument. So they either need to buff ranged weapons to be on the same level as melee ( which would completely destroy the difficulty in the game) or theyneed to nerf Melee a bit. 

[GA-Bulletproof]

Because Zenistar disc is considered an aura it should not be compromised by LoS imo