My Feedback on Missions and Levels in Warframe

[TheGreenFellow]

As the title points out - it's a rare case, but I've encountered it a few times myself, where I'll go into an Invasion on the third mission - the one that will unlock my desired reward - as the Invasion is coming to a close, only to find out that even though I completed the mission successfully, because it *ended* (instead of *started*) before the Invasion clock ran out, I don't get the reward.

I think that's wrong, and should be changed such that so long as you *start* before the clock times out, and succesfully complete the mission, and it's the third of the 3 requisite missions in order to get the reward - you should get the invasion's reward.

[TheGreenFellow]

As in the title here...when doing Kuva Siphon and/or Invasion missions, I'll often discover that the mission type I *thought* I was queueing up for, is not at all the type I get put into. This can be disconcerting on higher-difficulty mission types where choice of Warframe and/or weapons makes a significant difference.

And sometimes, I'll discover that somehow, in the process of queueing up for a Kuva Siphon, that it actually moved nodes and is no longer present on the map - that I'm actually just playing a normal mission without any knowledge or warning that the mission is no longer a Kuva mission (aside from the absence of the Siphon on the map).

These both seem like issues on the matchmaking side of the game that could be fixed? If so - please do fix these things!

[SpicyDinosaur]

I didn't really need a video to do this. You are not timed unless you screw up, so you can be somewhat casual with figuring it out. Just like most spies.

 

I can only figure out 2 of the 3 Lua spies, even being walked through them, and one of the two I still find almost impossible because I am Heckin' clumsy.

 

Personally, I ❤️ the kuva spies. It was a new type of spy for me. I think you are really only complaining about one of them though, not the other two vaults right?

 

Also, fighting eidolons and what gear/weapons to use is also not necessarily intuitive. But yea, people do need to watch a video (seriously, please do, people!)

 

Not everything should be mega easy.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Also, I don't think new players have access to the Kuva Fortress? They don't have acess to Lua or anything like that. Do they somehow have access to high end content in this case? Because by the time you get there, you  SHOULD know what you are doing and be able to adapt.

[Alcatraz]

It was actually made to do that as long as you got into your 3rd successful run on any invasion.

I've had it recently not payout to me when I did this once before as well so I'm guessing there's a bug that reverted changes, or just right roll on RNG that says you're skipped haha.

[TheGreenFellow]

Regarding Alarms: I think it's quite ridiculous how alarms can cause enemies to spawn right in the room you just left & cleared. This is also often a noticeable problem in the Void or on Infested maps lacking Alarms but where enemy alertness & response behaves in a similar manner. Please preserve the sanctity of areas we have already cleansed of hostile presences? I mean, obviously for endless mission types (and Mobile Defense), that needn't be a consideration, but for other mission modes that do not have endless enemy spawns, it would be pretty nice.

I also think it's unecessary bloat, having to hack alarms twice to go from a lockdown to normal; surely if the alarms are up regardless of lockdown you can just hack once and be done? I have to hack often enough, is it really never going to occur to my character to use the first hacking opportunity to take care of both things? I see Ordis do it all the time....
 

Dens: I dislike the the Den spawns are automatic, cause all enemies to instantly become alert (ruining Stealth combos), and that if not destroyed, provide a limitless source of hostile Kubrows. I feel like these could be improved upon, perhaps relocated level-wise to closed-off rooms away from normal enemy spawn locations, and made to only have a believable number of creatures per each Den.
 

Cryo barrels: exceedingly annoying! The cold effect lasts so much longer than other environmental hazards, how come? And the barrels are so often/easily destroyed by bullet jumping and melee swings that don't seem to be aimed anywhere near the cryo barrels. Given that it's pretty difficult to make the barrels immune to only those sources of damage (at least I would think so) without perhaps breaking other things, can the duration of the cold effect at least be shortened to two seconds at most?

Edited June 2, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[TARINunit9]

38 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Okay - "Vay Hek" is to all appearances a flying machine that warps and twists around in mid-air in ways that feel physically impossible, and moves around in such a manner that it's hard to so much as get a good look at him; how are you supposed to deduce where his face even *is*? I actually don't even really know to this day where his face is, all I know is to shoot at the thing on his back when it starts glowing.

He shows it to you. You aren't skipping the cutscenes and then complaining that the game isn't properly teaching you boss mechanics, are you?

38 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

By what manner is it an obvious trope that the Juggernaut's only vulnerable when attacking?

By the manner that the Juggernaut RIPS ITS SPINE OPEN. That's a pretty vulnerable region, a sucking chest wound. You also seem to be hung up on the fact that the Juggernaut's shotgun attack is unfair. It totally is, but it has another, much longer, much easier attack that makes it vulnerable for far longer

38 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Oh, and as an addendum to everything discussed so far? "The Sergeant" is a complete joke and feels like a glorified regular 'mob add' Corpus Tech that takes another split second to kill. About as much a pushover as most of the relay specters....

Yeah, he was supposed to be replaced with a proper Nef Anyo fight THREE YEARS AGO. DE really got sidetracked on that one

38 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Alad V and his Zanuka, and figuring out that you can't actually do anything to the Zanuka first - you have to down Alad V, let him be revived, and repeat the process over and over until the Zanuka's shields are all but invulnerable to attack

...I have no idea how you got any of that in your head.

For one, while I won't call the Alad V fight good, it's not terrible. It follows another trope: big strong boss escorting another weaker boss. There aren't any real tells, but your options are limited and you'll run out of options quickly and everyone in the Dark Souls fandom keeps telling that's acceptable design. Shooting Zanuka doesn't work so you shoot Alad V. Once Alad V is down you can shoot Zanuka. I have no idea where you got "let Alad V get revived" into your head, that is the exact opposite of what you are supposed to do

Alternatively you could get a bonus by watching promotional material that outright tells you how to beat the boss, though that's really only an acceptable answer when the trailer first comes out

Edited June 2, 2018 by TARINunit9

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Do they somehow have access to high end content in this case?

You have to complete TWW to gain access to it. You should  have Lua prior to the Kuva Fortress. When I first did the Kuva spy, I did not find it that hard. It was easy enough to figure out where to go.

20 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

like I find myself repeating over and over with a lot of the feedback I have to share here - unless you are already "in the know", it doesn't make sense to the uninitiated

Warframe is a game that does not hand-hold. The whole point is that you have to figure out how to do it. That is part of the fun. The rooms are not overly difficult, they are less linear than the others (bar Lua) but that is not really a bad thing. Besides, someone has to figure it out to make a video guide. If they can figure it out, you most likely can too.

[Kyryo]

Go in with ivara, press 3, have 5 years of invisibility to activate your brain and discover the way forward.

[bluepheonix13]

I agree with SpicyDinosaur, I think it is not necessary to use any guides. I just went in with Loki the first few times and looked around to learn how to do them with non invis frames. Granted, you may fail a vault a few times in the beginning, but what's the harm? Also, no vault "requires" you to use destructible buttons. The one vault where they are present can also be done by hacking a few more terminals. 

[Kyryo]

Never happened to me, are you sure you are clicking the right mission, right?

 

It happened to me to be put into a conclave match while going into a sortie tho... might have some connections.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Kyryo

[bluepheonix13]

Happened to me as well, not recently though, because I'm not doing any invasions/fissures/Kuva Siphons currently. 

What also happened pretty frequently to me was selecting a Kuva flood which then turns out to be a normal Kuva siphon. 

[Shiichibukai]

Please stop trying to make spies easier, literally git gud. Once you know the ways its extremely easy.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Half the fun of spies lately for me is figuring out how to do them with non-invis frames.*

 

I need to figure out where these destructible buttons are now. I have only done the straightforward route so to speak with these prior.

 

^{Note: Please don't do this during Sorties. First off, 90% of the people that do fail the mission for me and I end up doing it solo. And the other 10% are douchebags for feeling like sorties are the time to show off.}

Edited June 2, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[LSG501]

no issue with the dens personally but you forgot our favourite environmental 'issue'... the highest quality glass in the entire universe that is used on corpus ships lol

[TheGreenFellow]

As in title. I find it an annoyance that if I look away at the wrong moment, everyone else will decide to extract and I will be left alone to continue the mission even though at no point did I myself tell the game I wanted to continue. This is a particular grievance when the mission is a type that is difficult for me to continue alone and have hope of success.

Additionally, in the case of people going AFK, it seems strange that the game would seek to keep them in the match rather than booting them out.

So, please - when selecting whether to extract or continue, could the default action (that is, leaving your selection in the middle) be Extract rather than continuing to anothe round?

Granted, it would then become a pain for people who go AFK at the wrong moment in time and did in fact wish to continue...but that seems to me like an acceptable trade-off.

[krc473]

Just now, TheGreenGunner said:

I find it an annoyance that if I look away at the wrong moment, everyone else will decide to extract and I will be left alone to continue the mission even though at no point did I myself tell the game I wanted to continue. This is a particular grievance when the mission is a type that is difficult for me to continue alone and have hope of success

You have 15 seconds to decide. This should give you plenty of time to figure out that your squad is leaving. It is to benefit the people that want to keep playing. Maybe someone is happily chatting in the text chat, they forget to make a choice. It is better to allow them to stay in the mission.

1 minute ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Additionally, in the case of people going AFK, it seems strange that the game would seek to keep them in the match rather than booting them out.

AFK people get no rewards anyway. So why does it matter? They keep going and fail, no rewards. They get forced to extract, no rewards. People need to take some accountability - "I went AFK at a silly time and lost everything", well, you knew the mission was about to go to the transition stage...

[Kyryo]

We decided it, if someone goes afk, the team leaves, he keeps behing afk, dies and loses everything.

 

Note that this was implemented WAY before the anti-afk system. 

Still is a good thing to teach players to pay attention at what they are doing.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Technically, forever ago for missions that had an exit point, apparently you had to be there before time up/extraction countdown whatever, or you personally failed.

 

Look, @TheGreenGunner I personally believe in you. You can totally adjust to what you currently perceive as annoying or challenging. I'd personally save my complaints for serious problems, as opposed to annoyances or things that kind of irritate you, or things that seem too challenging. (They won't be eventually, eventually it all becomes rote ^{except the Lua spy missions, but I bet you get better at those than I am!}) 

 

Also, I'd like to take this time to complain about draconian plat fraud punishments and a lack of diversity in the staff.

 

Also the bloom settings on the dev streams on Twitch. Seriously, I had to turn my brightness waaay down.

Edited June 3, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[tprx]

26 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

no issue with the dens personally but you forgot our favourite environmental 'issue'... the highest quality glass in the entire universe that is used on corpus ships lol

You know the Corpus motto: Build it cheap, build more of it!

[TheGreenFellow]

40 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I didn't really need a video to do this. You are not timed unless you screw up, so you can be somewhat casual with figuring it out. Just like most spies.

Actually, there is a timer. A hidden one. If you don't kill at least one enemy every 15-20 minutes or so, the game will without a word or warning boot you out and you will get no rewards or anything. See my thread on Lua Spy, it has the link to an older thread from 2016 that goes deeper into detail.
 

41 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I can only figure out 2 of the 3 Lua spies, even being walked through them, and one of the two I still find almost impossible because I am Heckin' clumsy.

Personally, I ❤️ the kuva spies. It was a new type of spy for me. I think you are really only complaining about one of them though, not the other two vaults right?

Now that I know how to progress through the vaults? Sure, it's different and cool and neat. But it's only fun now because now I am "in the know" - without the foreknowledge, I probably would have given up and walked away from the mission entirely.

And yeah, it's mostly one or two vaults in particular.

43 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Also, fighting eidolons and what gear/weapons to use is also not necessarily intuitive. But yea, people do need to watch a video (seriously, please do, people!)

Not everything should be mega easy.

Being intuitive and being challenging are not mutually exclusive. I do not think the game should demand having to watch videos and constantly look up information from third-party sources in order to be played; that kinds gets in the way, y'know?

42 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Also, I don't think new players have access to the Kuva Fortress? They don't have acess to Lua or anything like that. Do they somehow have access to high end content in this case? Because by the time you get there, you  SHOULD know what you are doing and be able to adapt.

Except that both Lua or the Kuva Fortress Spy introduce elements that are totally alien to all prior experiences in the game. You can't adapt to what you do not have any inkling of, y'know?

p.s. Two-word hint for the buttons: "look down"
__
 

36 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Warframe is a game that does not hand-hold. The whole point is that you have to figure out how to do it. That is part of the fun. The rooms are not overly difficult, they are less linear than the others (bar Lua) but that is not really a bad thing. Besides, someone has to figure it out to make a video guide. If they can figure it out, you most likely can too.

I'm sorry, but "a game that does not hand-hold" is a cop-out I've seen before with Elite Dangerous - a game that also suffers from the exact same issue of design being done from the perspective of already being "in the know" and not considering enough the perspective of a new player; that is, it also suffers from not self-containing the information necessary to be able to play it.

It's perfectly possible to be challenging and intuitive at the same time without "hand-holding" and making things feel like a breeze. Puzzles are fun when they are intuitive, when you *can* figure out how to progress through them without needing to be precognitive.

With enough trial and error (and being booted out of the game while studying a vault), I'm sure anything can be understood well enough to make a guide for it - but I do not think it's fun that it be more "error" than "trial". There's already far too much repetition present in the game as-is, y'know? Having to repeat failure in order to glean a method of moving forward is not an ideal situation.
__
 

39 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

Go in with ivara, press 3, have 5 years of invisibility to activate your brain and discover the way forward.

Not everybody has Ivara at the ready...does everyone forget that you have to play Spy in order to get the frame that breaks Spy?

__

34 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

Please stop trying to make spies easier, literally git gud. Once you know the ways its extremely easy.

That's rather the point, and the problem. Additionally, nowhere in this thread have I asked for spies to be "easier". Please don't make things up. A little more effort in making replies doesn't hurt.

[TheGreenFellow]

As in title; I have a feeling this is a subject that has probably been posted before, and it's pretty straightforward. When playing Defection, it's noticable that squads often struggle, and sometimes fail to pass, common ramps and stairwells. Sometimes the pathing causes them to get caught in a corner between the wall and the edge of a door. Given that the mission cannot progress if the defectors cannot progress, this is a big concern.

So, I'd just like to pitch in an additional plea to please, continue improving AI pathing, particularly with Defectors in mind, and perhaps give us a way of moving/pushing the defectors out of being in a stuck state, some kind of work-around in case these bugs continue to occur.

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Wow, that's unecessarily tedious...thanks for enlightening me, though.

Or just highlight the text you want to quote and press the "Quote Selection" button that appears.

BTW, for Alad V, you only have to take out Alad's shields to be able to damage Zanuka. No need to down him.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Rambit23Z

[krc473]

12 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

It's perfectly possible to be challenging and intuitive at the same time without "hand-holding" and making things feel like a breeze. Puzzles are fun when they are intuitive, when you *can* figure out how to progress through them without needing to be precognitive.

On my first attempt at them I successfully stealthed the rooms, with a Saryn. It took under 10 - 15 minutes. I had not viewed anything prior to attempting them. Just went in and did it. There was no challenge. If you think people must view videos/guides prior to attempting them, I think you need to reconsider. Sure, I was not a new player, I had done many other spy missions before it. But it was still my first run through on that mission.

 

How do you propose DE improves these spy rooms? How would you change them to be more intuitive? How would you maintain a challenge?

12 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

it also suffers from not self-containing the information necessary to be able to play it.

I do not want a sign telling me how to complete the puzzle room. The point is that you figure it out. I do agree though, there is a general lack of information provided on most things. I do not think Spy rooms are one of those things.

Edited June 3, 2018 by krc473

[SpicyDinosaur]

You can also use Loki, just watch his timer and hide from anything that would see you when you about ti vis, that is not too much imo, I use Ivara because I've done most of them enough where it's just a matter of being lazy tbh. As for booting you, yes I have screwed around that long, and actually I recall it warning me and giving me a timer of like 30 seconds. I'm not sure if you are not paying enough attention or some boot within those time. But yes, it you screw around for THAT long, I guess you'd have to worry about that (felt like longer than 20 mins to me, are you guessing or did you time it, since you seem to have a varying range.)

 

So you basically want everything to be rote and similar enough that a new player could play it? No thanks. 

 

There's kid MMOs that probably have that, if it becomes overwhelming tbh. I think there's both a Disney and Looney Tunes one. Also a Hello Kitty one. If they make a Pusheen or Hamtaro one, Imma switch games though, I have no doubt I will be missed by all. 😉

 

Also what does "in the know" mean, like we are all part of a secret club? Or all watched the same video to learn. I don't generally watch videos for anything. Sometimes for builds etc if I am unsure on what to make of them, then I usually modify that anyway. I've looked at guides for Kurias after finding a bunch on my own or because people happened to mark them during a mission.

 

Plus, if you consider yourself a new player but sped past all that quest content, it seems like you are perfectly capable of learning to adapt. Or did you get carried to this, if you got carried, well the content is above your level anyway.