Revenant Themed Warframe "Vlad" Feedback and Discussion

[SnazzyZ]

16 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

- the overshield is locked behind killing them with what was a low damage ult.

- Mouvement is irrelevant if everything is dead anyway

- scaling with enemy damage without amplifing it tenfolds is just bad and he can't tank forever to "benefit" from that style for scaling.

Once the charges on the armor are gone take the hits or say goodbye to the stacked damage which will be irrelevant vs their EHP scaling anyway (nyx's mindcontrol, unairu's reflect are all exemples of how bad enemy dmage is when used againt enemies, the only exception is octavia because of the giant multiplier and the fact that it's cumulative between them and mallet is invincible)

TL:DR yes it has more utility but all that utility is locked behind killing them with bad damage with a subpart scaling mechanic.

If they make his ult function similar to Octavia's mallet and increase his thrall count a bit (or make thralls drop mines regardless how they get killed) I'll have no more complaints with him.

[SSI_Seraph]

DE has yet to discover the wonders of %hp damage.

No room instaclears and no trash frame past x scenarios

[Synpai]

On 2018-08-18 at 2:03 PM, GinKenshin said:

that's just the thing, balance will never be truly there, there's always gonna be 'the best' in the eyes of certain people like the OP, and if it's not on par then it's not worth it, even when it has other uses and sometimes is there just for more variety or options, but they can't see that 

comparing is never a good thing from what I've seen, because everything can be compared and everything can be found worse than 'the best' way.

Balance is something to strive for even if it's arduous. 

 

 

Think about the route that you take home. Why do you choose that one and not one that takes twice as long? Or one that heads in the opposite direction first?

Options should be valuable. That's the point of making comparisons, what use does the Embolist bring that no other weapon can achieve in usage?

 

[SnazzyZ]

49 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I have no idea why DE hasn't migrated mallet's damage calculations to every other 'enemy damaging themselves' mechanic or otherwise what's so special about mallet because it is so good and literally every other instance of 'haha that enemy is now fighting for me' is terrible due to how enemy and warframe damages and armor radically differ.

 

However iI would be totally on board with the idea you support assuming it solved the damage issue of enemies under your sway.

With his thralls only dropping the land mines when killed by his own ult it puts too much reliance on the ult, and if it can’t scale up as well as mallet then not only does the ult become far less useful, but the land mines fall off with it. His kit ‘seems’ to be about setting up a horde of thralls to nuke into mines as sacrificial pawns, which won’t work effectively if it doesn’t scale well. I’m hopeful for him to be fine tuned into an amazing frame but I’m still worried that he’ll end up becoming too reliant on the ult. 

[GinKenshin]

20 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Balance is something to strive for even if it's arduous. 

 

 

Think about the route that you take home. Why do you choose that one and not one that takes twice as long? Or one that heads in the opposite direction first?

Options should be valuable. That's the point of making comparisons, what use does the Embolist bring that no other weapon can achieve in usage?

 

well, considering one of the options isn't even in the game yet, I don't think a comparison is valid. and this comparison only focuses on 1 aspect of the frame, while ignoring all others like abilities, theme, appearance...etc. like I said, this kinda of comparison doesn't lead to anything good 

as for the embolist.....funny you mention that, because I know a thing or two about it from years of using it, and I can safely say it's the best secondary at a very specific job that little to no other weapon can do from my experience at least. it definitely has it's uses, but people still turn a blind eye on it, because it doesn't directly compete with the best options out there 

what I'm saying is that not everything needs to be an option for the best and compete to be the best, some items have a specific job and some items just exist for the cool factor. if you're one that focuses on being and using the best of items then that's totally fine, but don't compare everything to your best items and judge them as useless in the end if they can't compete, then try to make them on par just for you to have more best options

and I'm sorry but I don't get the 'in usage' part, mind explain?

[Synpai]

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

well, considering one of the options isn't even in the game yet, I don't think a comparison is valid.

I never was attempting to refute this point in the slightest.

On 2018-08-18 at 2:03 PM, GinKenshin said:

comparing is never a good thing from what I've seen, because everything can be compared and everything can be found worse than 'the best' way.

This however, I have issues.

 

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

I can safely say it's the best secondary at a very specific job that little to no other weapon can do from my experience at least.

What is this job that it's best at? If you were tasked with making a living to sell this item as an actual weapon what's going to make someone buy this over other options excluding appearance (this is what I meant by "use")?

 

9 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

what I'm saying is that not everything needs to be an option for the best and compete to be the best, some items have a specific job and some items just exist for the cool factor.

No but the issue is that every option should have value. This requires a comparison (regardless of what attributes you want to evaluate). What if there was a brand new frame that had all of Volt's abilities at 1/4 power/duration/range, but looked like your ideal frame? It's like having two people aiming for a job with the same skill set, but one of them is more efficient and easier to be around.

You want to get to a point where everyone is super in their own unique way it gets harder to do as you expand the cast, but it should be striven for.

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 38 minutes, GinKenshin a dit :

well, considering one of the options isn't even in the game yet, I don't think a comparison is valid.

Some things don't need to be in the game to give feeback on. (Comparaisons are just points of refenrence used to do that)

If they decided to release the day one harrow/revenant/x frame without feedback from streams, you'd end up with horribly designed frames on day 1. Let's be real they don't have countless hours in like players to know how the frame is gonna interact in-game.

Let me remind you that revenant made his thralls immune for x on the first dev stream. Now just imagine that in game. (Doest take a genius to know that nyx mindcontrol on steroids is a bad idea)

I would agree with you on the different aspects of the frame make up for one subpart ability but they decided to lock a lot of his utility and damage behind that.

Edited August 19, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[(XBOX)ultamite hero]

12 hours ago, Ocerkin said:

im very excited for revenant BUT i am very fearful of its actual usability because every time theyve shown him he gets the crap kicked out of him and i cant see it being very viable endgame, it has such a link to that "armor" skill it has but it sounds like it has very small numbers of hits before its burned away, last stream reb said 10? thats not a lot in a defense or survival situation if it is ANY 10 hits, you regularly get plinked by stray shots constantly so unless you are constantly recasting its gonna be worthless...

 

Edit: and with the devs saying how "op" he was while getting smashed on, and his severe limitation shown as of last stream of only getting 4 minions? im very concerned, only 4? i consider that pretty well worthless, its like a heavily gimped nekros

Yeah that part kind of concerned me. If their definition of OP is what they showed then thats really really concerning. Hopefully its just because it was modded terribly.

[ZodiacShinryu]

1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

You are advocating an empty echo chamber where only the positive feedback is allowed to funnel around endlessly reenforcing itself.

I am advocating no such thing. I am saying your concerns are premature especially on something so simplistic and trivial as damage numbers and "was it modded?" especially if you keep ignoring past trends and reasonable assumptions. It is white noise to actual concerns like functionality of the ability(s) itself, which is much more useful when it is IN DEVELOPMENT. Like what are the purpose of his thralls? Are they immune from friendly fire? Are they merely sacrifices for traps and health/shields? Or to stay on his 4th, is the damage boost from incoming damage calculated before or after mitigations? Those are much more important than "His 4th isn't doing Mesa level damage" especially if he was under the simple assumption of being not modded. Speaking of, did you even try an unmodded Mesa in Sortie3 to see if the numbers were comparable? It might give you some insight to your own concerns. You could try the Simulacrum too... I believe they were average grineer around Lv80-90 that she was dealing with.

Then there are concerns of people who want the game balanced around the likes of Lv300-400 which is unrealistic.  The game has never been balanced around that nor should it. The game is set around Lv100-120 tops (which those levels are suppose to have some moderate challenge to them) for all relevant categories because no full rotation exceeds that. If concerns are raised connected to going beyond those points, imo, they should be invalid because they are not within the natural scope of the game. The game is meant to force you out in endless yet people persist in spite of balance by using every advantage available to them, whether it be enemy design, AI, map structure, power synergy, mod scaling, whatever not because they were meant to do that. If they can get all the functionality working like they want it to at set levels then he is doing what he needs to and even Reb did that in the brief elite alert preview.

To touch on Oberon, maybe their ideas and goals for the power are not the same as yours (or the player bases). Reckoning doesn't particularly 'need' health orbs since he has a healing ability built (team based as well) built into him. Maybe it is just a bonus meant to be gained for killing trash mobs which I know he can do even at Lv100 enemies from my own experiences especially when modded more bursty. Could they increase the window of the effect? Sure. Do they need to? Not at all. You'd get more sympathy from me with Mag's Pull and energy orb drops since they dropped her potential damage so much with it (though I am fairly certain it was a trash kill bonus or a Magnetize combo reward). I also recall some talk about his augment which I personally like. There is nothing particularly wrong with the functionality of the mod itself but suggesting letting range modify it's effect range would be great; too bad I don't remember to much talk of that back during its release or his Prime's.

If anyone should feel insulted it should be DE. That they would need to be reminded by the players that he was only doing minor damage (even if we assume he was "fully modded") on his 4th ability when the majority of the roster is breaking 10-100k damages with notable culprits doing even more than that. You don't even need to play more than a few minutes to see that. Nyx's current Psychic Bolts can do more than his 4th was doing in the devstream. Get out of here with that crap.

---

1 hour ago, PolarFall said:

With his thralls only dropping the land mines when killed by his own ult it puts too much reliance on the ult

I might need to go back and check the last devstream. I don't remember her saying the damage zones were changed to be based on her 4th killing the thralls. The overshield mechanic is tied to his 4th killing the thralls because it forces them to drop an item (the sentient orb things). The devstream previewing him before that, those zones were generated from simply killing the thrall at any time with anything possibly to keep the casts relevant from allies killing your thralls.

51 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Let me remind you that revenant made his thralls immune on the first dev stream. now just imagine that in game.

Was that in the simulacrum with the butchers? I don't remember them being immune not from the player anyway. I fairly certain she killed some of them. I think they were immune from other enemies because they infected each other that way. And I don't remember if she said they were immune to friendly fire of allies partially because I am fairly certain I discussed this with someone else about the same topic. I might add on the overall conversation that that was a concern of 'functionality' not 'numbers' just to be clear. To which I don't think even if they released him then that he would've been horrible but he surely would have been boring and not particularly special. I would say he is 'functionally' better now. And since you said Harrow, I don't remember any huge changes from his preview other than maybe being able to move with Thurible. Again... Functional!

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a une heure, ZodiacShinryu a dit :

Was that in the simulacrum with the butchers? I don't remember them being immune not from the player anyway. I fairly certain she killed some of them. I think they were immune from other enemies because they infected each other that way.

She can, friendlies coudn't because it perbably made him useless since they'd just shoot his thrall. Based on feedback they changed it to drop the laser beacon as a conpensation. And yes it would ahve been horrible because they we're immune after being enthralled until they mature on the first showcase. Imagine nyx mindcontrol hopping and speading between enemies.

il y a une heure, ZodiacShinryu a dit :

And since you said Harrow, I don't remember any huge changes from his preview

Pretty sure Harrow had energy on headshot kill only iirc and nothing for a simple kill when they first showcased him and everyone complained about that.

those are just exemples amonst loads like the dropped eximus change showed on dev streams ect, TL:DR feedbacks helps, that'w why they show things on dev streams to begin with, if they didn't want it until we got the frame those wouldn't exist. Sometimes you don't need something in game to notice the flaws. (ex, the eximus change)

Edited August 20, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[Madway7]

On 2018-08-18 at 1:42 PM, TheGrimCorsair said:

Mesa's 4, Equinox's Day-4, and Saryn in general are all pretty ridiculously overpowered as it is.

Revenant's looks pretty strong, given it was being used against a whole host of level 80-100 fully armored Grineer, and G3.

1. Not always fully armored cause there were some corrosive procs in there thanks to the Jat Kittag

2. Pretty sure all the enemies were fodder, Butchers, Lancers, Troopers, Shield Bashers and Ballistas.Only the G3 were close to being heavy units and he didn't manage to kill them. It seemed like the Jat Kittag did most of the damage to them.

3. Only enemies that got to level 100 there were the G3. Everything else aside from the lv93 special Butcher was below lv90

But I guess we need to see when he releases. Because the Devs tend to run pretty bad builds on stream.

 

[SnazzyZ]

2 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

1. Not always fully armored cause there were some corrosive procs in there thanks to the Jat Kittag

2. Pretty sure all the enemies were fodder, Butchers, Lancers, Troopers, Shield Bashers and Ballistas.Only the G3 were close to being heavy units and he didn't manage to kill them. It seemed like the Jat Kittag did most of the damage to them.

3. Only enemies that got to level 100 there were the G3. Everything else aside from the lv93 special Butcher was below lv90

But I guess we need to see when he releases. Because the Devs tend to run pretty bad builds on stream.

 

At least he’s fleshed out and his abilities all seem to be fairly nice, so it should be a simple stat change if he needs it after release (I hope) 

[Madway7]

1 minute ago, PolarFall said:

At least he’s fleshed out and his abilities all seem to be fairly nice, so it should be a simple stat change if he needs it after release (I hope) 

I know this is still speaking based on incomplete data, but he seems pretty bad at his core.

Strictly because they nerfed the max minion count. Or want to? I'm not sure. It's possible Reb misspoke. She said the max was 4 but it hit 5 at one point.

Anyways I don't like where they went with him. 3 of his abilities revolve mostly around the thrall mechanic. (Which is the only real thing that would set him apart currently)

I feel like he suffered from Reb trying to mix the vampire theme abilities in instead of focussing on the eidolon aspect (would have much rather a fully fledged vampire frame be made instead with a vampire look). But that ship has sailed, at this point outside of maybs a rework years down the line I doubt they will make major changes to him now.

I honestly hope he can find a place in the game. Atm how he turns out will heavily depend on the numbers he can get post proper modding.

[SnazzyZ]

1 minute ago, Madway7 said:

I know this is still speaking based on incomplete data, but he seems pretty bad at his core.

Strictly because they nerfed the max minion count. Or want to? I'm not sure. It's possible Reb misspoke. She said the max was 4 but it hit 5 at one point.

Anyways I don't like where they went with him. 3 of his abilities revolve mostly around the thrall mechanic. (Which is the only real thing that would set him apart currently)

I feel like he suffered from Reb trying to mix the vampire theme abilities in instead of focussing on the eidolon aspect (would have much rather a fully fledged vampire frame be made instead with a vampire look). But that ship has sailed, at this point outside of maybs a rework years down the line I doubt they will make major changes to him now.

I honestly hope he can find a place in the game. Atm how he turns out will heavily depend on the numbers he can get post proper modding.

Didn’t he originally have a thrall limit of 20? Maybe toning that down to 10 at max would more reasonable then what currently is assumed to be 4~ I had suggested previously that he should summon vomvalysts but that doesn’t seem like a possibility anymore.

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Pretty sure Harrow had energy on headshot kill only iirc and nothing for a simple kill when they first showcased him and everyone complained about that.

those are just exemples amonst loads like the dropped eximus change showed on dev streams ect, TL:DR feedbacks helps, that'w why they show things on dev streams to begin with, if they didn't want it until we got the frame those wouldn't exist.

I just want to point out all that you've pointed are 'functionality' changes not mere number/potency. That is not what this topic was originally about. I never said early feedback is inherently bad or useless. I said people need to focus on the important aspects that take more time to flesh out and give out realistic alternatives of what they want. However I disagree that if they just released it with no preview that it cements anything (giving Harrow energy on kills isn't a drastic [technically speaking] change that wouldn't exist if he wasn't released with it; it could be easily added at any time) but the time scale of changes certainly does change the further out it gets. Look at Saryn after both her reworks, she got a number of changes both numerically and functionally.

2 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Sometimes you don't need something in game to notice the flaws. (ex, the eximus change)

How would you know it is a "flaw" if you never actually played with it yourself? Maybe it could have formed into something interesting. I don't think the idea was that bad in concept but there are problems with eximus now that adding a new layer on top of it only exacerbates it. Maybe they would've done even more robust eximus change, maybe not, I don't know. Personally easing up leeches would be amazing whether by some energy recovery on kill easier ways to tell them apart for faster response times as well as getting rid of their invisible aura range in a bid for better response times and informed tactical choice. But with all the clamoring of enemies being too easy, not enough diversity, no tactical differences giving the enemies ways to protect themselves and changing the pacing a bit is crazy idea, right? With that said, they have done a couple of things related to it with the addition of Nox and the changes to Scrambus type units.

[SSI_Seraph]

Il y a 4 heures, ZodiacShinryu a dit :

That is not what this topic was originally about.

Except the overshields and one way to get the beacons is locked behind how much damage your ult deals and if you can kill them with it. If you're gonna be hitting them with 300 to 2000 ticks you're never gonna access one of those things and rely on weapons for the other (at that point choose another frame). That's a whole adpest of the frame behind numbers. Which is bad design tbh.

[Madway7]

So it seems they've merged most revenant threads here. Prob to see what else they can do to him before the release.

Right now without making drastic changes I just hope the numbers are there (for his 2 and 4). Possibly let him have more thralls back since its the main draw of the frame at this point.

Make sure his passive has a good range (like 20-25m if not higher). Or change his passive to DR to shields like I suggested a few times, cause if it barely has range like Nova's passive then it pretty much won't do anything.

Final suggestion: Using his 3 while his 2 is active either resets the charges or restores charges based on amount of enemies hit. That way you can maintain his psuedo tanking ability.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Madway7
Fingers crossed that he turns out to be good

[Aeon94]

8 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

So it seems they've merged most revenant threads here. Prob to see what else they can do to him before the release.

Right now without making drastic changes I just hope the numbers are there (for his 2 and 4). Possibly let him have more thralls back since its the main draw of the frame at this point.

Make sure his passive has a good range. Or change his passive to DR to shields like I suggested a few times, cause if it barely has range like Nova's passive then it pretty much won't do anything.

Final suggestion: Using his 3 while his 2 is active either resets the charges or restores charges based on amount of enemies hit. That way you can maintain his psuedo tanking ability.

Nice ideas.

[Cesserint]

Is nobody else going to let it sink in that Revenant is a sentient based warframe?

A conduit of void energy, combined with sentient energy?

Boy.

[Atsia]

1 minute ago, Cesserint said:

Is nobody else going to let it sink in that Revenant is a sentient based warframe?

A conduit of void energy, combined with sentient energy?

Boy.

I've acknowledged that, I'm just waiting to see how the quest will justify his existence

[ZodiacShinryu]

7 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Except the overshields and one way to get the beacons is locked behind how much damage your ult deals and if you can kill them with it.

I mean the original topic was even more simplistic than that. However when you say "beacons" I assume you mean those damage zones as long as it is just an option and they occur when ever a thrall dies that has nothing to do with his 4th (it is an effect of his 1st ability). You want them at higher levels you can shoot them with a gun or melee (even just damage in the single thousands is going to take out trash mobs at level 100 missions, Reb showed that).

I firmly believe he wasn't modded (definitely not meta modded) to be worried about that quite yet. Then the overshield mechanic that is linked to killing thralls with his 4th is honestly just a bonus. Shields as of now are pretty poo but I can see what they might have been thinking.

This is just a list of assumptions and speculation. Reb said max of 4 thralls but people have noted that the counter briefly said 5. Thralls may be locked at 4 infector targets that can convert some set of new targets in some way or it maybe be set at 4 base affected by mods (or maybe she infected a pet user enemy that then summoned pets; its how you beat the limit on Nekros anyway). You activate his 4th and start killing things. Reb also said that he has a damage boost function on his 4th from incoming damage (so like chroma's vex fury in a way). Coupled with the "Mesa like" ramp up function over time the damage could become a lot more powerful the longer you keep it activated. The overshields mechanic comes in as your thralls infect targets and you kill unnecessary ones, they drop the shield orbs you pick them up to recover shields that you can then use to feed the 'vex fury' mechanic more (which may or may not have a cap) while having your thralls infect more to drop more orbs to feed the cycle. Then there is healing synergies with the likes of Trinity, Mag, and Volt that can keep his shields up for the mechanism as well as dashing through targets with his 3. It is possible he is more active in his damage gains though he could possibly be an energy hog.

It is just things you have to wait and see. If you (or others) have larger functional concerns or suggestions feel free to voice them like...

3 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Final suggestion: Using his 3 while his 2 is active either resets the charges or restores charges based on amount of enemies hit. That way you can maintain his psuedo tanking ability.

Even though on paper I worry that it is near immortality (though I suppose it is still better than Valkyr) because of how Mesmer Armor works (and possible how broken depending on the damage boost on his 4th is calculated) it is an interesting idea for keeping him durable. If it is simply about numbers, I think people need to let it go until you can test it for youself. His thralls are probably the biggest blind spot in his whole kit without knowing exactly how they function to then subject those interactions to the rest of his kit.

[SSI_Seraph]

Since the threads were merged heer's my feedback on what was shown so far:

Passive:

The regen based on energy was was better than the AOE knockdown because the later doesn't fit with his playstyle  to begin with, you're never supposed to lose your shields if you're playing the frame the way it was designed which is keeping his mesmer skin active all times. The hp regen would have been nice if you ever lost in and some health to be always topped off.

Enthrall:

The definition of using enemies as damage and unlike nekros to get riid of fodder you have to kill them and select what you want again. Nyx is getting a mindcontrol buff because of this. 1 target or 10 doesn't change how powerful the skill is.

Sure they're distractions at least so meh

Dunno how much the beacons will do but it's a bonus I guess.

Mesmer skin:

My biggest concern is how it'll interact with DOTS. If you lose all your charges in a flash if a dot is on you than it's basicly useless everytime you have an eximi near you.

Danse macabre:

the huge problem for me.

the damage seemed low and the chosen scaling is not really "scaling" since Enemy EHP scaling >>>> enemy damage and you can't tank forever with mesmer skin/energy.

On top of that you guys decided to lock the overshield behind kills with it which basicly never gonna happen unless you're fighting really low level stuff or used enthrall on fodder which is counter intuitive since you want the best units working for you and not against you. I can't imagine this 4 killing a bombard or an anciant anytime soon with that type of scaling.

Reave:

Invinciblity/mobility is nice

Edited August 20, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[Madway7]

50 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

 

Passive:

The regen based on energy was was better than the AOE knockdown because the later doesn't fit with his playstyle  to begin with, you're never supposed to lose your shields if you're playing the frame the way it was designed which is keeping his mesmer skin active all times. The hp regen would have been nice if you ever lost in and some health to be always topped off.

 

Well he's not a tank and his 3 already heals him so his original passive is still bad for him.

[Ocerkin]

1 hour ago, Madway7 said:

Well he's not a tank and his 3 already heals him so his original passive is still bad for him.

how is he not a tank? nearly his entire kit is about mitigating or healing damage to himself in some fashion or another? what world isnt he meant to be seen as tanky?

[Madway7]

13 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

how is he not a tank? nearly his entire kit is about mitigating or healing damage to himself in some fashion or another? what world isnt he meant to be seen as tanky?

Thinking about it, I suppose he is a tank. 

Just not one that relies on health, which is what I mean makes his original passive bad.

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Madway7