So about that Limbo re-re-rework...

[boysenbeary]

Oof, tbh I hate Switch Teleport Loki more than Limbo, because at least I can fully or partially opt out of limbo's abilities

[NocheLuz]

2 minutes ago, Richtter said:

A scenario where a Rhino will not bring a melee weapon maybe when levelling up weapons.

For killing trash we have better options than Limbo, but there is no point in kill trash when you must defend something.

 

I know there are tons of bad Limbos but instead of harass them in the first place, why not just give a heads up?

Well, I understand you that think I'm dislike Limbo. But I'll tell you now, I'm like Limbo. But I'm dislike who use it to harass people include those who trying to protect them (by them I mean those that using him to haress people not all Limbo).

Also, I'm bring Rhino with only Primary Weapon on Sortie or even I'm bring Melee weapon with me, I'm rarely using it unless I'm force to. Which is why recently I'm bring Melee weapon with me because I'm encounter the haress Limbo more these day.

2 minutes ago, boysenbeary said:

Oof, tbh I hate Switch Teleport Loki more than Limbo, because at least I can fully or partially opt out of limbo's abilities

Well, I'm just encounter one where he switch teleport me when I'm trying to rescue the prisoner and he switch with me and he go to panel himself...

Although, it's very rare since it's need clear line of sight with other people and moving target is hard to target anyways...

[Azvalk]

Stasis does not prevent anyone from using his pretty weapons with 4 forma.
You take your time to shoot a bullet in the head, and move on to the next. The death of the enemy is guaranteed and you consume less bullets than emptying your charger in normal situation.
Also, the fact that players' bullets are not stopped would be nonsense.

The only flaw of Limbo is the details of cataclysm.
A cataclysm that protects a pod or a console to defend, it works, the target is in the rift, so why, a console to hack, or doors's console, do not enter the rift and do not offer interraction?
Worse, when Limbo is alone in the rift, without deploying a cataclysm, it can interact with certain elevator consoles, which makes no sense.
So, if there must be a slight rework, it must be about that, to ensure that if a cataclysm is deployed, all the objects to interact are also in the rift, and that it does not cut off the current interactions, for example the Loki of the team who hacks the consoles of a spy mission ...

Edited June 7, 2018 by Azvalk

[Leland_Gaunt]

It's gonna be the most annoying and least desirable combo of primes for me personally since I started playing in '13.

Time to take a four month break I guess, pugging will be a great p.i.t.a. for a good while with that frame being primed.

[Richtter]

24 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Well, I understand you that think I'm dislike Limbo. But I'll tell you now, I'm like Limbo. But I'm dislike who use it to harass people include those who trying to protect them (by them I mean those that using him to haress people not all Limbo).

Also, I'm bring Rhino with only Primary Weapon on Sortie or even I'm bring Melee weapon with me, I'm rarely using it unless I'm force to. Which is why recently I'm bring Melee weapon with me because I'm encounter the haress Limbo more these day.

Pretty rare we meet Limbos in sorties when the mission ins't mobile defense, interceptation or spy, unless you're bringing a Limbo's fan in your squad. Limbo needs some rework but not in the way some people here wants.

That's why I said people needs a rework more than Limbo itself because to play Limbo actually you need some brain.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Richtter

[Polleo86]

To people saying "just bring a melee, stop complaining about limbo". What about a frame like Harrow whose entire kit is based on headshots and guns? Melee is still viable with Harrow and Mesa can use her 4 in the rift but I generally like my pistols as Mesa and I like red crits with Harrow. To be forced to stick to melee or abilities is discouraging game play-wise. Nothing against Limbo players personally. 

Actually there are a few builds that need weapons to work. Like before her rework, For the saryn spore build, I relied on pox for spreading spores and with a limbo teammate, I had to keep going outside his huge cataclysm to make it work. You don't know who your teammates in a public squad will be and you can't build for that.

Besides, a lot of bad Limbo players use his rift to afk and let his team mates do all the work. Atleast when Ember or Banshee did it, they still contributed to the mission, afk Limbos are kinda just there safe in their rift. Ofcourse Limbo players aren't the only ones afking but his abilities give people who like to leech an easy solution is my point.

[NocheLuz]

6 minutes ago, Richtter said:

Pretty rare we meet Limbos in sorties when the mission ins't mobile defense, interceptation or spy, unless you're bringing a Limbo's fan in your squad. Limbo needs some rework but not in the way some people here wants.

That's why I said people needs a rework more than Limbo itself because to play Limbo actually you need some brain.

Well, there are nothing more terrifying then who know how to play Limbo and use their brain to haress people... It's better to have Limbo who can't play him well but listen to people than who use Limbo to haress people.

Also, the fact that some of their ability hinder other people play style is not change. Although, some people can change their play style to match Limbo. It's still not change that Limbo NOT buff the other but trying to control them the way they wanted. Even in those mission where you've mention he is useful. Other Frames can do the same. If you want to protect console sure, Snow Glode can do that. Interception is just a matter of killing enemies. If you kill fast enough Limbo is not needed (and most of the time I'm saw Frost more useful than Limbo). Spy? Why Limbo? most people use Loki or I'm solo it with Ivara (even with low enegy, Ivara still better then Limbo).

I'm agree with you that people need to rework, and by that I mean to not haress people. That is why there are suggestion in changing his ability to reduce those who want to use him to haress people.

[Oreades]

After careful consideration I think I'd be happy with Limbo if DE would just add a deck of cards to the game so we can play Blackjack while we sit in the rift. 

[NocheLuz]

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

After careful consideration I think I'd be happy with Limbo if DE would just add a deck of cards to the game so we can play Blackjack while we sit in the rift. 

Well, if card is consider an object it may got static and can't go on until static is dispell (lol).

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Well, if card is consider an object it may got static and can't go on until static is dispell (lol).

..................................... *Angry Darth Vader noises* 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Richtter]

22 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Well, there are nothing more terrifying then who know how to play Limbo and use their brain to haress people... It's better to have Limbo who can't play him well but listen to people than who use Limbo to haress people.

Also, the fact that some of their ability hinder other people play style is not change. Although, some people can change their play style to match Limbo. It's still not change that Limbo NOT buff the other but trying to control them the way they wanted. Even in those mission where you've mention he is useful. Other Frames can do the same. If you want to protect console sure, Snow Glode can do that. Interception is just a matter of killing enemies. If you kill fast enough Limbo is not needed (and most of the time I'm saw Frost more useful than Limbo). Spy? Why Limbo? most people use Loki or I'm solo it with Ivara (even with low enegy, Ivara still better then Limbo).

I'm agree with you that people need to rework, and by that I mean to not haress people. That is why there are suggestion in changing his ability to reduce those who want to use him to haress people.

Unless you love looks like a killing machine, why would you go to a mobile defense or inteceptation running around killing fast instead of drop an almost 2 minutes cataclysm + stasis? "yeah, let's go kill fast because achieve a high kill count makes me fell good."

Snow globe is good but only if you're inside it. Not all mobs will be frozen on step inside snow globe(with augmented mod). If you're out side snow globe you can't kill anything is inside.

 

I'm not telling Limbo is perfect but is far away from awful.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Richtter

[Daskrieg]

10 hours ago, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

I still say make Stasis just an ultra slow. Like... the slowest slow.

-Keeps the flavor.

-Allows for primary and secondary usage.

Change Rift Surge a little so he doesn't lock out targets from the group. (Hell, just make it a dmg boost or a whole new power)

Boom. Limbo becomes a good team mate with minimal dev time needed.

 

*Also, something that I think would make Limbo shine:

-When exiting the rift he receives a 90% dmg resist that decays over 8 seconds.

That would help promote that peekaboo style that I want to like, but can't because you get shredded the second you step out of the rift.

 

i like this idea, lets people in the rift be able to deal with all those frozen stasis targets thier way, the enemy is slowed and not trapped in one spot immune to everything but melee attacks.

if anything stasis is what i think broke this guys 1st rework for me, i liked the orininal 1 for banish and 2 for self banish setup, though his dash for infinite self banish is nice now and saves some time it was the stasis ability that kind of ruined him for me, too many people use it when its not needed and that ends up making stuff take longer than normal, kind of like the old nyx mind controlled target with high duration at the end of a defense wave from the old days. 

far as rift surge goes i think it would be fun if they made it some kind of aoe cc damage ability, instead of what it does now have it send forth a radial wave of unstable rift energy that knock over everything it hits, and deal a flat amount of damage that is increased for each target trapped in stasis, this would allow a rotation of all his powers to make him a useful frame for both offence and defense.

[NocheLuz]

5 minutes ago, Richtter said:

Unless you love looks like a killing machine, why would you go to a mobile defense or inteceptation running around killing fast instead of drop an almost 2 minutes cataclysm + stasis? "yeah, let's go kill fast because achieve a high kill count makes me fell good."

Snow globe is good but only if you're inside it. Not all mobs will be frozen on step inside snow globe(with augmented mod). If you're out side snow globe you can't kill anything is inside.

Snow Globe is not difference then Cataclysm. The only thing difference is Cataclysm have Static where Snow Globe don't. But when you inside snow globe you can fire outside, while the bullets from outside got blocked by the Globe. Not to mention the Globe can be reuse to increase the globe HP. With Mobile Defense it's not like you'll need to go far anyway. Since you don't need to go out killing things. Only killing what come into line of sight.

While Interception you may think why would you killing enemies... Hmm... It's the whole point of mission objective where you prevent them to take back the point. Any Frame can kill the enemies (either with weapon or ability). Yes, got high kill count is good but that is part of the objective. Killing enemies to prevent them to take back point. Why using Cataclysm when you can just kill them and got EXP/Focus point? You got other things when killing enemies. Not just 'Oh yes I'm got high kill count and feel good'. The only time when it's needed is when you got overwhelm because you can't kill fast enough. And I'm have got to that situation where I needed to abandon my point to help out Limbo in other point. Not to mention if enemies have Nullifier your Limbo plan suggestion will almost fall apart.

[Richtter]

1 minute ago, NocheLuz said:

Snow Globe is not difference then Cataclysm. The only thing difference is Cataclysm have Static where Snow Globe don't. But when you inside snow globe you can fire outside, while the bullets from outside got blocked by the Globe. Not to mention the Globe can be reuse to increase the globe HP. With Mobile Defense it's not like you'll need to go far anyway. Since you don't need to go out killing things. Only killing what come into line of sight.

While Interception you may think why would you killing enemies... Hmm... It's the whole point of mission objective where you prevent them to take back the point. Any Frame can kill the enemies (either with weapon or ability). Yes, got high kill count is good but that is part of the objective. Killing enemies to prevent them to take back point. Why using Cataclysm when you can just kill them and got EXP/Focus point? You got other things when killing enemies. Not just 'Oh yes I'm got high kill count and feel good'. The only time when it's needed is when you got overwhelm because you can't kill fast enough. And I'm have got to that situation where I needed to abandon my point to help out Limbo in other point. Not to mention if enemies have Nullifier your Limbo plan suggestion will almost fall apart.

There are better places to get exp and focus outside of an inteceptation mission and, well, you only need to kill trash in the end of interceptation. For me there is no point in clear trash more than once.

Unless you're a brain dead player, you will keep an eye if there is some nullifier around even playing as a Frost. Or lets just plays as Octavia, drop a Mallet + Amp and let's go dance because mallet will cheese nullifiers. I think people must not rely on only in your warframe skill set to do damage that's why we have 3 weapons type to carry on to fullfil all situations.

 

Brain is necessary for playing as Limbo and only a few can do it.

[NocheLuz]

7 minutes ago, Richtter said:

There are better places to get exp and focus outside of an inteceptation mission and, well, you only need to kill trash in the end of interceptation. For me there is no point in clear trash more than once.

Unless you're a brain dead player, you will keep an eye if there is some nullifier around even playing as a Frost. Or lets just plays as Octavia, drop a Mallet + Amp and let's go dance because mallet will cheese nullifiers. I think people must not rely on only in your warframe skill set to do damage that's why we have 3 weapons type to carry on to fullfil all situations.

 

Brain is necessary for playing as Limbo and only a few can do it.

Hmm... I hope you don't forget Sorties Interception... But well, high level player who have everything may consider killing a level 100 heavy gunner/Corpus tech trivial. So, I'll not judge what trash and not trash in your opinion. But Interception have 4 point unless all are Limbo you'll still need to go killing thing anyway... which is contrary to your suggussion... unless you don't want to help other teammates.

Also, if Limbo have Cataclysm with Max Range or high Range. It'll be hard to spot Nullifier before they touch the bubble... But if the Range is not high or negative. I don't think it'll hinder other people too much and make people want Limbo to change (where Limbo with Brain use Max range to harass people anyway).

But I agree with you. You'll need Brain to play Limbo. That is why I'm play Rhino where I can have fun instead of thinking all the times (lol).

[Alaeacus]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Maybe some of you like to invest 5 or more formas into your primary or secondary, go to the trouble of bringing it into a mission, then watching as it completely and utterly becomes a useless piece of crap because someone decided they were going to shut it off is a no bueno for me.

Yes please, something needs to change.  As a Frost Prime main, I'm tired of seeing this scenario:  

• Get to Defense Objective and pop a max Range ice bubble right on top of it (reinforcing multiple times if high level defense).
• Two other teammates come stand beside me in bubble waiting for waves with their Primary weapons out.
• Limbo teammate shows up, places large "f**k you" bubble" right on top of us.
• Limbo emote bows to us and runs off to spawn points for kills.  

This literally happens to me almost every night already.  I can't imagine how annoying the next couple of months is going to be.  I don't care about the energy I wasted on the bubbles because it is minuscule.  However, now I need to leave both bubbles if I want to shoot ANYTHING, basically being forced to play the way this Limbo jerkoff wants me too.  I'm almost always leveling MR experience with my Secondary and/or Melee, so this is an extreme pain every time (because now I am contributing very little to the team if inside bubbles).  For most closer enemies, I can just Ice Wave inside the bubble.  If I want to snipe anything with my rifle at distance though, I must leave.  

Edited June 7, 2018 by AlMcFly
Words

[Richtter]

10 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Hmm... I hope you don't forget Sorties Interception... But well, high level player who have everything may consider killing a level 100 heavy gunner/Corpus tech trivial. So, I'll not judge what trash and not trash in your opinion. But Interception have 4 point unless all are Limbo you'll still need to go killing thing anyway... which is contrary to your suggussion... unless you don't want to help other teammates.

Also, if Limbo have Cataclysm with Max Range or high Range. It'll be hard to spot Nullifier before they touch the bubble... But if the Range is not high or negative. I don't think it'll hinder other people too much and make people want Limbo to change (where Limbo with Brain use Max range to harass people anyway).

But I agree with you. You'll need Brain to play Limbo. That is why I'm play Rhino where I can have fun instead of thinking all the times (lol).

Yes, you need to kill at the end of trasmission and a well modded weapon can do the job pretty well regardless of warframe you're using. Rhino iron skin all the way... hm, I see the fun.

Well, bette we end up this discussion and let the thread for who wants to contribute with the rework suggestions. I just expose my opnion because unfortunately there are too many jerks in this game and is easy to harass than give a decent tip for anyone.

[Orblit]

Limbo haters I guess don't have good melees.

[Alaeacus]

5 minutes ago, Orblit said:

Limbo haters I guess don't have good melees.

I have a great melee, when I'm not leveling MR with a new melee, which I almost ALWAYS am doing.  

[NocheLuz]

6 minutes ago, Richtter said:

Yes, you need to kill at the end of trasmission and a well modded weapon can do the job pretty well regardless of warframe you're using. Rhino iron skin all the way... hm, I see the fun.

Well, bette we end up this discussion and let the thread for who wants to contribute with the rework suggestions. I just expose my opnion because unfortunately there are too many jerks in this game and is easy to harass than give a decent tip for anyone.

Well, TBH. You have a point in many things and I'm will be very appriciated if you make a 'How to play Limbo' guide.

But, well Rhino Iron skin make enemies can't hurt me for a amount of damage which is why it's fun in using him to destroy enemies and don't worries about going down... It's just my preference anyways...

After some thought... I think instead of have Static stop enemies all the time. How about change it to periodically stop the enemies. Like stop for 5 second then allow movement of anything for 0.5 to 1 second before stoping again. This would mean any bullets that got static will be fire every 5 second. Which will make Primary/Secondary weapon usable in the Rift with Static. And it's not like it'll change the way static works that much anyways.

[Richtter]

3 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Well, TBH. You have a point in many things and I'm will be very appriciated if you make a 'How to play Limbo' guide.

But, well Rhino Iron skin make enemies can't hurt me for a amount of damage which is why it's fun in using him to destroy enemies and don't worries about going down... It's just my preference anyways...

After some thought... I think instead of have Static stop enemies all the time. How about change it to periodically stop the enemies. Like stop for 5 second then allow movement of anything for 0.5 to 1 second before stoping again. This would mean any bullets that got static will be fire every 5 second. Which will make Primary/Secondary weapon usable in the Rift with Static. And it's not like it'll change the way static works that much anyways.

Stasis has a bullet shot limit and we must consider some weapons has the travel time problem.

Stasis is the main CC of Limbo and is really hard to make a change without let it broken or useless.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

We need to work an Exalted Top Hat into his kit 

[Lakais]

Honestly, I wish Limbo was... "weirder". I mean, his abilites are all about going in and out of pocket dimensions and messing with reality, essentially. But it'd be even MORE infuriating for other players if for example inside the cataclysm bubble, gravity turned sideways. 

For Banish. What if you were in real-space and shot at a banished enemy, the enemy takes no immediate damage, but if they were to pop back into real-space, the damage they would of taken is stacked up into a "collapse" where the enemy takes the damage after the fact. If the damage is lethal, they basically implode into a small black hole, not unlike Simulor. It would basically be like a per target punch-through that deals damage to the first target a little later. So you see an enemy and you shoot them, but due to banish putting them on a different plane, they don't take damage, yet. If there's an enemy behind them, they get hit instead. If/when the first enemy pops back into our plane of existence, the damage they would of taken then and there is dealt as a single hit that if lethal causes the enemy to crunch up and/or explode. 

The same would work for any friendly in Rift-space but shooting at a real-space enemy. 

Stasis is the other problem child. People hate when their bullets just stop. So why not let others start off the bullets early by walking into the frozen projectiles?

Those are the biggest issues I see people having with Limbo. That disappointment when the thing you expected to happen, doesn't because apparently this gentleman put them on the other side of a mirror and we having no way to speed up or otherwise play around those effects. 

[(PSN)Apoleon_amarr]

If DE removes stasis from the game, the hat should be bulletproof imo, like valkyr' s armored ass

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Ah I'm glad this remained somewhat constructive. After the mods deleted several people....

Anyways I want to further elaborate on some points. When Limbo first came out, he was the definitive sniper frame believe it or not. He chose targets, singled them out, took them out. And with cataclysm able to be cast at any range, allowed him to pick off enemies in a concentrated area from safety. The major issues with this though was every level was enclosed spaces, and single shot weapons were for the most part weaksauce. Cue timeskip.

The Limbo now, because of the major focus on Stasis (every other ability boils down to just putting an enemy in the rift) only benefits close quarter fighting and to an extent, pigeonholes other players into the same. Though to ignore the strong points it brought with this would be foolish. He had a very strong cc able to completely halt enemy advancement and was very much able to deal with large hordes of enemies in the right hands. Though these instances are very much few and far between.

Some simple changes could alter these negative effects, and in turn make Limbo a very viable, very friendly addition to matches. Lets review his abilities shall we?

Now Banish is very much a strange ability at the moment. It used to be able to bring enemies in the rift so you could 1v1 them. The rework you group banished, but either immediately had to dash in to actually be able to damage them (typically overshooting your target), or cast cataclysm over them, which is redundant. It also had the amazing ability to kick enemies from the rift basically telling your teammates "You deal with them". There was also a tactic of activating stasis then hitting banish but why go through the trouble when hitting cataclysm is much easier way of hitting groups?

Rift surge used to be a blatant damage buff. Now it just simply keeps enemies in the void. For what purpose? Enemies in the rift are effected by powers that could easily translate to giving teammates a go at them, but the only frames that really benefit either have to have a toggle ability with continuous DoT or have to continuously spam their only damaging abilities and in turn need to be rifted themselves to actually get to the enemies they're trying to kill. And we know Limbo has no powers that can kill them himself. So ask yourself who that feature was really for. All in all it becomes a confusing mess.

Stasis is the new star ability. It replaced Rift Walk and is an incredible Crowd Control ability. Though not without it's limits. It obviously cuts off weapons fire, is affected by other Limbos leading to confusing tug-of-wars between usage, can actually create larger mobs of enemies by denying allies access to them without a cataclysm active which slowly inches them forward if not surged and even when not can make hitting them difficult. And can actually ruin gamemodes that rely on killing with the enemy denial. It's a huge pink elephant that no one wants to acknowledge because it makes one gamemode easier.

Then there's Cataclysm. While the best way to synergize with the other abilities, it's damage dealing potential is incredibly stilted and borderline worthless (unless you durr durr are running with a great melee which durr durr not everyone always does).

Now I've been mulling over what could possibly be done to improve him and build upon what he wants to be, not what he is. He wants to be a support caster frame that can deal with mobs of enemies. Aside from my points in my original post I think other areas could be improved.

• Make Cataclysm damage enemies or damage enemy damage resistance the longer or shorter it's duration is. Like a side-grade to Nova (being the most prominant Warframe in the game with a mass CC debilitating power) but in reverse and can mass afflict enemies with a movement and armor debuff. After all the cataclysm bubble is a mass of swirling energy that is gradually shrinking and crushing all within. The energy regeneration could be moved over to a different ability which I'll go over in a minute.
• To balance stasis, and further drive the point home that Limbo is a sniper/shotty frame, stasis deactivates after a single hit on whichever enemy you attack. Oh I'm going to have to keep recasting stasis right? Well going with the idea that it's basically a timed toggle ability anyways, you'd reactive it by hitting them with Banish. Banish now has a use again in this context.
• Enemies that are killed while surged restore energy. It would add an extra layer of strategy to usage while drawing in more gains in the same style as Harrow.
• Keep Limbo's personal energy regeneration in the rift. With the change that he doesn't regen in cataclysm anymore he'd still need to be able to consistently be able to cast abilities. As we know energy economy can control ability use and with two abilities that could be toggled he'd have a lot more trouble maintaining those reserves.
• I mentioned stasis'd enemies being hit with bullets. To avoid over-killing them, the little aura around them would disappear if it was a killing blow. That would prevent the most common mistake of mag-dumping and still not knowing if you got them or not. Some enemies are tanky like eximus leeches and take several thousand bullets to the face. It's a QoL change more than anything.

If anyone has anything else to add please do so. This is the point of discussions.