Dificulty and why you cant please everyone

[Phalanx22]

Is warframe too easy? most people i talk to seem to believe that but how could possibly make it more challenging? lets compare warframe to Mario for some examples for the sake of simplicity 

What if  in Mario Goombas took 2-3 jumps to kill instead of 1? that would make it harder but more tedious to kill enemies not really "harder"

what if we made jumps harder? that would make it harder but if you cant do the jumps simply because you are not good enough or have bad sense of timing , hand to eye co-ordination etc... no amount of grinding makes it easier leaving you frustated.

What if 1 in 100 Goombas needed to be hit in a specific way to make them killable like that devstream we saw ages ago with eximus having very specific weakpoints? It took them like a minute to kill that thing and in a fast paced horde shooter thats a flow breaker.

Remove the extra revives?  that would make most public games frustating forcing you to revive dead members hallfway across the map since if they die obviously they are not helping and might even leave causing a host migration.

Reduce ammo? Melee is already incredibly powerfull you can clear sorties just with melees easilly

Add enemies that CC you? people already complain about scorpions and moas stunlocking you 

Nerf anything that can melt 100+ lvl bombards into the ground ? people put a lot of effort into those and obviously its not fun when people break your toys 

So really what do we as a community want? i dont think DE has the resources to produce content JUST for people that like harder parkour/puzzle sections (a lot of people i know hate lua spy) and ofc just adding more numbers to a healthbar without changing anything else doesnt make fighting enemies more engaging it just takes 0.5 seconds more of shooting to kill them. Me personally id like to see less enemy CC stunlocks and bulletsponges and increase their melee dmg making me consider if its safe to engage them in melee adding a risk vs reward factor also its because of that risk i have to keep constant awareness of my surroundings keeping me engaged in the fight at all times 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Phalanx22

[Ryko]

you cantplease everyone. people will cry about a frame being OP in a PvE game that has a recruit channel, clans and solo mode.. you think something is OP"

*whipsers* dont use it! recruit people into your clan with the same mind set, play how you want, play with an unmodded frame and skana in sorties..idk..
Me, personally..i want to nuke maps..it brings me joy.
 

Edited June 13, 2018 by LeNinja_RyKo

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

Just wish stupid ball things didn't have god mode stagger...

[TheMandarin]

omg, please make this game easy. Warframe is the only easy game that i can play now. my daily job is hard, and when i go home at night, i want to relax with easy game like Warframe. 

[Quimoth]

Warframe gets easier as you invest time and effort into it. You gain skill and rank gear/mods to the point where basically every piece of content is in your reach.

 

Try reaching the highscores anywhere in warframe and I doubt you'll keep saying it is easy. There are however certain things that make the game easier, just the fact that most people have the slide melee embedded so deeply into their muscle memory doesn't mean it is easy, it took you some time to get it till the point where you spam that atterax to nuke all.

I think the main problem with people who find warframe easy is that they are not genuinely looking for challenges. They don't play nightmare nodes in the really though ways (volt in no shields mode or something). They do not try to mod that old weapon they haven't touched for a long time into some monster weapon that just barely does the job at the higher sorties/bounties. They do not try to do something secondary only for some extra fun. We could keep this list going forever, the point is some people do not challenge themselves, they stay in their comfort zone and expect it to be difficult. How can something you find comfortable be genuinely difficult? Being in discomfort in a game can actually result in fun. Overcoming your shortcomings/failures is one of the most rewarding experiences in any game.

TL;DR;

Challenge yourself, try to do what you think to be almost impossible, overcome your failures and you'll be rewarded with a great sense of joy upon accomplishing your goal. Warframe is only easy because the grinding and therefore your gameplay is repetitive, break out of your habits and have some truly new experiences.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Quimoth

[ShutUpJade]

Warframe is easy, once you understand all of the systems that are in the game. Because those systems can be so easy to build things up to be very very powerful. The difficulty really comes in learning these systems, and that is solved by:

One- Using all of the resources on the Internet explaining these systems.

Two- Practicing these concepts you've learned in game and finding your play style and how to use those concepts to compliment that play-style.

Combining these two makes for a rather easy game once mastered.

Edited June 13, 2018 by JDragonkin

[Quimoth]

I can spend long times in the simularicum with friends, trying new builds/comps and weapons just to have some fun.

[Magicfingers]

honestly i think that half the people that say warframe is to easy are just talking out their butts wanting to make people think they're better at the game than they really are

[XCpDaX]

i think the OP wants bosses, hard ones, maybe like wow, with cooperative interaction to do things, eidolons was a huge step to that, and i personaly like it, but still need to be better on that part

Edited June 13, 2018 by XCpDaX

[Phalanx22]

6 minutes ago, XCpDaX said:

i think the OP wants bosses, hard ones, maybe like wow, with cooperative interaction to do things, eidolons was a huge step to that, and i personaly like it, but still need to be better on that part

i hate eidolon fights i find them boring and feel they take too long, i dont like any boss fight thats fought for farming purposes 

[XCpDaX]

Justo ahora, Phalanx22 dijo:

i hate eidolon fights i find them boring and feel they take too long, i dont like any boss fight thats fought for farming purposes 

they are repetitive on the same boss, i mean bosses more interactive with players, and lets be honest here, warframe is a farming game, like any other, you kill npc for resources, in world of warcraft you do it for tier, so i dont know what should be the point of the game

[Phalanx22]

2 minutes ago, XCpDaX said:

they are repetitive on the same boss, i mean bosses more interactive with players, and lets be honest here, warframe is a farming game, like any other, you kill npc for resources, in world of warcraft you do it for tier, so i dont know what should be the point of the game

Yeah thats what sucks about warframe everything is designed to be repeated hundreds of times except for some quests

[--END--Rikutatis]

33 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

k the main problem with people who find warframe easy is that they are not genuinely looking for challenges. They don't play nightmare nodes in the really though ways (volt in no shields mode or something). They do not try to mod that old weapon they haven't touched for a long time into some monster weapon that just barely does the job at the higher sorties/bounties. They do not try to do something secondary only for some extra fun. We could keep this list going forever, the point is some people do not challenge themselves, they stay in their comfort zone and expect it to be difficult. How can something you find comfortable be genuinely difficult? Being in discomfort in a game can actually result in fun. Overcoming your shortcomings/failures is one of the most rewarding experiences in any game.

I already do that in the form of long endurance runs to see how far I can go into killing high level enemies and surviving, but honestly, at this point it just feels like I'm playing against the game design, not with it. I don't mind the lack of rewards for the effort, I just do it for the fun, but I have to spend well over an hour with mindless mobs before getting into the content I really want to play. The content is already there, all DE had to do is make it more accessible, offer difficulty tiers for endless missions to already start at levels, 100, 500, 1000 or whatever for people who want to do that. And maybe offer a few cool rewards, resources or cosmetics for your trouble, nothing mind blowing. Why couldn't Kuva Survival have a "high difficulty" version of it already starting at lvl 80 enemies and going up from there with double kuva reward per siphon? Wasted opportunity. Why Elite Sanctuary basically kicks you out of the match with crap artificial efficiency drains before you even have a chance to fight the enemies at level cap? Again, wasted opportunity. So basically, if we want a challenge we have to go _against_ the game design and ignore all the progress we made for our builds (the entire purpose of a shooter grinder) to nerf ourselves for a little extra challenge? 

OR you can play a game that genuinely delivers a challenging and competitive endgame experience as the core and meat of its gameplay loop. That's exactly how The Division 2 was announced this E3, and considering the recent successes of the original Division in the latest updates, who knows they might even deliver. You might want to watch these videos detailing what they have to say about endgame and challenge for a game like this, at the very least they have the right idea about it:

https://youtu.be/1hvhaqx93Dk?t=3m1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncGbnPvZ71I

EDIT: I feel like eidolons were the best effort Warframe has made for challenging endgame content that is still accessible to all. It's definitely challenging and requires coordination to do 4x or 5x a night, but doing 1-3x per night is still accessible to all. And the fight is fun and interesting. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by --END--Rikutatis

[TARINunit9]

51 minutes ago, Phalanx22 said:

Is warframe too easy? most people i talk to seem to believe that but how could possibly make it more challenging? lets compare warframe to Mario for some examples for the sake of simplicity 

...

So really what do we as a community want? i dont think DE has the resources to produce content JUST for people that like harder parkour/puzzle sections (a lot of people i know hate lua spy) and ofc just adding more numbers to a healthbar without changing anything else doesnt make fighting enemies more engaging it just takes 0.5 seconds more of shooting to kill them. Me personally id like to see less enemy CC stunlocks and bulletsponges and increase their melee dmg making me consider if its safe to engage them in melee adding a risk vs reward factor also its because of that risk i have to keep constant awareness of my surroundings keeping me engaged in the fight at all times 

 

Oh boy it's this discussion again

Currently Warframe is using a general overall model where you earn rewards to make yourself more powerful, and skill is secondary to investment. There are, however, some mechanics that intend for skill to be primary. Melee combos for instance can't decide if they want to be Dynasty Warriors or Devil May Cry. Limbo's original kit (i.e. without the Stasis) was about choosing who to isolate and when, a skill-based interaction. The constant reworking of Saryn was about making her skill-based so you couldn't come into the mission with 300% power strength amd coast almost indefinitely off that alone

So naturally when you have this going on the fanbase chimes in. Some people like it when it's more skill-based, others think that it doesn't fit the overall model and feel the game runs smoothest when investment is primary. Then you also run into the issue of power creep, where if the devs introduce anything that isn't objectively stronger the most invested fans will complain it was a waste of time

So yes, you are right, you can't please everybody

[Vesiga]

It's a horde shooter (basically), all horde games tend to be super easy. 

but that doesn't make it any less fun.

The only way to add some difficulty is puzzles.
because if they just add more enemies with invul phases we'll just complain harder

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Its all about application. Eggs whites used to be used as adhesive for books. Not the first thing you think about around breakfast. Same thing with different weapon mechanics.

[ScytheG]

I don't know that there's a way to balance it with how ridiculously powerful you can make some builds.
There are the spy missions, and lua challenges if you want puzzles.
Did the stealth reworks ever go anywhere? I never really get the impression trying to crouch past enemies seems to work. And once alerted it's next to impossible to get enemies to stop looking for you unless you have a frame with complete cloaking I think.

[SneakyErvin]

Just as every other arpg, except maybe D3 with its "infinite" difficulty in grifts, difficulty dies at some point due to some cause. There simply isnt much they can do to fix it, certainly not in a game with so many frames and even more weapons. As in all arpgs, there will always be faceroll options and that is when they have a handful (if even that) of classes to balance.

 

[DrBorris]

I hate to be that guy to post the link to a thread, but at some point I just don't want to type it out again.

DE, in all of the years of Warframe, has never given us an idea of what they want the combat to be like. Thus, everyone just assumes how they want to play is the right way to play and everyone else is wrong. Then whenever DE shifts power around, they think DE is destroying the game because they believe that the "vision" for combat is something other than what DE had in mind.

Basically, having DE stay silent on how combat should work has just led to a lot of saltyness in the long run. Also some people (still) think that balance does not matter in a PvE game. Mhmm, Dark Souls needs a sword that one-shots everything, that'll be fun, it gives "player choice" or "you don't have to use it".

Spoiler

Like, seriously, every game is balanced around an interaction between the player and the enemy. That is the game, that is where the fun is, but some people for some godforsaken reason think that because other players are not involved that means anything goes. No, that is called "creative" mode, and most people get bored af after an hour or two in a game's "creative" mode.

Then there is the "horde game's are not hard". You wut mate? It is like for some reason people can't see out of their little box. Just because you have never played or can't think of difficulty in a "horde" game does not mean it can't exist. I know it is a "dead game, lul" but Battleborn had a great balance of some semblance of difficulty along with being a horde shooter. And then there is Warhammer: Vermintide.

And let's not forget those that can't stand a nerf no matter what. Nooo, don't look at the big picture, if there is any drop in PERCEIVED (not even actual) power then the flames will rise.

And then there are the defeatists that say "well, you can't fix it" which is... just... UGGHHHHH.

 

I did not intend for this to all be a rant, so I'll just keep it in a spoiler. There is a reason that DE should never, ever do as the community directs. Inspiration? Awesome, I'd like to think that the Warframe community is a great source of inspiration. But direction? Fudge no.

 

[WindigoTG]

52 minutes ago, Phalanx22 said:

Is warframe too easy?

Yes

53 minutes ago, Phalanx22 said:

how could possibly make it more challenging?

You can't. Not within current systems anyway.

 

It needs a complete overhaul of damage system, a complete overhaul of power usage, a complete overhaul of enemy scaling, a comple... It pretty much requires a whole new game.

 

Long story short, you have to limit player's ability to output punishment, and build the opposition from the ground up, with how much of that new limited team effort should it take to get through each situation in mind.

 

So, 5 years in, "difficulty" in Warframe is pretty much a lost cause.

You will be bored to death by pressing a single button to win, and you're gonna like it.

[Yagamilight123]

hace 3 horas, Phalanx22 dijo:

Is warframe too easy? most people i talk to seem to believe that but how could possibly make it more challenging? lets compare warframe to Mario for some examples for the sake of simplicity 

What if  in Mario Goombas took 2-3 jumps to kill instead of 1? that would make it harder but more tedious to kill enemies not really "harder"

what if we made jumps harder? that would make it harder but if you cant do the jumps simply because you are not good enough or have bad sense of timing , hand to eye co-ordination etc... no amount of grinding makes it easier leaving you frustated.

What if 1 in 100 Goombas needed to be hit in a specific way to make them killable like that devstream we saw ages ago with eximus having very specific weakpoints? It took them like a minute to kill that thing and in a fast paced horde shooter thats a flow breaker.

Remove the extra revives?  that would make most public games frustating forcing you to revive dead members hallfway across the map since if they die obviously they are not helping and might even leave causing a host migration.

Reduce ammo? Melee is already incredibly powerfull you can clear sorties just with melees easilly

Add enemies that CC you? people already complain about scorpions and moas stunlocking you 

Nerf anything that can melt 100+ lvl bombards into the ground ? people put a lot of effort into those and obviously its not fun when people break your toys 

So really what do we as a community want? i dont think DE has the resources to produce content JUST for people that like harder parkour/puzzle sections (a lot of people i know hate lua spy) and ofc just adding more numbers to a healthbar without changing anything else doesnt make fighting enemies more engaging it just takes 0.5 seconds more of shooting to kill them. Me personally id like to see less enemy CC stunlocks and bulletsponges and increase their melee dmg making me consider if its safe to engage them in melee adding a risk vs reward factor also its because of that risk i have to keep constant awareness of my surroundings keeping me engaged in the fight at all times 

 

Eliminate the revive mechanic ... you die you lose . Put telegraph attack to enemies that can one shot you but you can see and evade . Make bosses with mechanics that has some sort of challenge (now the only with some sort of difficulty are lephantis and Kela ....)

[CupcakesMoo]

6 hours ago, Phalanx22 said:

lets compare warframe to Mario

Oh god no. 

 

It would be nice if people would just chill on the nerf opinions and actually played the game. You know. Instead of optimizing themselves out of their own fun because they are just too darn smart for their own good. The solution: Stop thinking warframe is your life/job. 

[purdo84]

We need a sortie mode star chart. Same nodes/mission types but just add +50 to the base enemy level. Earth would start at level 50 and t4 void nodes would start at level 95+. Throw in a reward multiplier, say 2x resources and/or credits and away we go. 

I find it insanely annoying that we have to stay for and hour in a survival to get enemies that don't just fall over in a strong wind. Add to that, DE's unwillingness to incentivise endless gameplay, once you have 'endgame' gear, we end up with a very trivial and boring gameplay experience on the normal star chart and next to no content that would even require builds such as we have now. 

TLDR:: playing warframe is like stepping on ants. Give us content that will put the fear back in me.

[Sziklamester]

Noone can pleases everyone is an universal fact. We are different with different wants. Just make a easy, medium, hard mode and let use choose. I like the game how it is.

[Lucavee]

7 hours ago, Quimoth said:

TL;DR;

Challenge yourself, try to do what you think to be almost impossible, overcome your failures and you'll be rewarded with a great sense of joy upon accomplishing your goal. Warframe is only easy because the grinding and therefore your gameplay is repetitive, break out of your habits and have some truly new experiences.

This.

What I love about warframe is how 'easy' it is when i need it to be, or 'challenging' when i want it to. Pressed on time? Slap on your strongest loadout and steamroll the mission in record time. Looking to play for some several fun hours? Get your fun gun or tweak whatever weapon the people deem as 'useless' and make it Sortie worthy.

This game is only tedious if you want it to be.