How is this not Archwing 2.0? and Why wouldn't it suffer the same fate?

[Aggh]

On 2018-07-09 at 9:02 AM, Evanescent said:

>actual co-ordination

>actual roles that need to be managed

>exciting visual and gameplay elements

>proper fleshed out flight mode

If we make it have good scaling and rewards it's set.

The problem with archwing was that progress in main game didn't carry over to archwing, and archwing progress didn't carry over to main game. Given the player disinterest that followed it became not worth it to continue working on it.

Railjack could even revive archwing and give it a purposem, which I am all for.

Do you really think that the ships in railjack won't have new mods/upgrade systems?  The success of railjack is going to entirely depend on the same exact things that archwing lacked: Rewards, progression and content support.  All things that could get thrown to the wayside by any subsequent projects for warframe.  They swung and they missed with archwing, POE has been a relative success that Venus looks like it will expound upon; but railjack is a new gameplay system rather than a new setting, the potential for shortfalls are much greater and a lot of people in this thread are being a little too optimistic.  Instead of lashing out at anyone worried about the potential problems here, they should be pushing for DE to commit to Railjack just as hard as they did with POE.  If DE doesn't, it will fail.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Aggh

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-07-09 at 3:53 AM, Twilight053 said:

There are few great improvements that I noticed.

From what I can tell from the Tennocon demo, they've greatly improved the bounty system and made it so you can pick another bounty anytime you want anywhere. This effectively eliminates the back-and-forth gameplay loop that is going back to city hub and heading back out to the open world. They've also expressed that they would like to apply this change to PoE as well.

Secondly, they've gotten rid of the field-exclusive resources from Venus plains. Sure, there will still be fishing, mining and capturing, but there will be no more Venus Iradites, Grokdul, Nistlepod and Maprico. The Tennocon demo and datamine expressed as much, the latter being that the bounty rewards nor the gameplay has not shown any new collectible loots, nor that the leaked datamine found any venus-exclusive field loots. In other words, Venus no longer has isolated resource system that PoE had.

If these two improvements are anything to go by, is that they are listening to the criticism they got from PoE, and is applying the lessons they've learned to Venus.

Why would this be a good thing?  Don't "vets" complain all the time about sitting on mountains of resources, and needing more to do?  I thought PoE's unique resources were a fantastic concept, because they put everyone on equal footing to start.  Naturally those who've played longer or are more adept at WF will collect the needed bits faster or more efficiently, so it all balances out, but isn't that way better than  "Oh look..a new thing!  *clicks and instantly gets because already has 1 million of all resources* ....Welp. back to being bored!"  ?

Just my thoughts on it, of course, but personally, I'd love to see new unique resources.

Also, boooo to datamining.  Why do people feel the need to force DE's info out ahead of schedule?  It's their work.  They'll share it when they're good and ready.  Last time people datamined them, they redid the entire quest!  Don't people learn?

[Wind_Blade]

Le 08/07/2018 à 14:26, --Q--Voltage a dit :

This is finally coop content that requires coordination to take down ships. My only concern is the enemy level and the scaling of your ship vs enemies.

Trials was doing that ... and a big community get formed to trials... sadly DE shotdown even if community love this gamemode (even if it's was only veterans community lol) Thank Raid School Bus for all this fun

[Twilight053]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Why would this be a good thing?  Don't "vets" complain all the time about sitting on mountains of resources, and needing more to do?  I thought PoE's unique resources were a fantastic concept, because they put everyone on equal footing to start.  Naturally those who've played longer or are more adept at WF will collect the needed bits faster or more efficiently, so it all balances out, but isn't that way better than  "Oh look..a new thing!  *clicks and instantly gets because already has 1 million of all resources* ....Welp. back to being bored!"  ?

Alot of vets complain otherwise, and hated that PoE is completely isolated because like you said, they had nothing to spend their hard farmed resources on.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-07-09 at 9:44 PM, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

First thing I assumed. It would be a different story if they had improved upon archwing and it was in a place people really enjoyed it. Did they really perfect on it in the shadows and decide to re implement it with this first rather than deliver it onto archwing now for more feedback? Who is having fun with the way archwing controls on the plains? >.> I can't move precisely for the life of me and why would I dedicate time to know that side of the game like the back of my hand when the way it controls feels broken and the maps are generally empty outside of the plains.

I love Archwing on the PoE, and after some practice found it -very- simple to control.  So...not saying your struggles aren't real, but maybe they're not true for everyone, yeah?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-07-10 at 3:24 PM, Aggh said:

Do you really think that the ships in railjack won't have new mods/upgrade systems?  The success of railjack is going to entirely depend on the same exact things that archwing lacked: Rewards, progression and content support.  All things that could get thrown to the wayside by any subsequent projects for warframe.  They swung and they missed with archwing, POE has been a relative success that Venus looks like it will expound upon; but railjack is a new gameplay system rather than a new setting, the potential for shortfalls are much greater and a lot of people in this thread are being a little too optimistic.  Instead of lashing out at anyone worried about the potential problems here, they should be pushing for DE to commit to Railjack just as hard as they did with POE.  If DE doesn't, it will fail.

Y'all act like DE "needs" us to tell them how to do their job, or that they would even read this if we, many of which have -0- experience in Game Development, even DID type up an entire 20 pages on "How-To-Succeed" for them.

It's not our place to "make sure they do it right".  They do what they do, they put it out, and we like it or we don't.  And we all move forward from there.  

I don't know why we're threatening DE before they've had a chance to do much more than present us with possible content.  Like good grief, if I ran DE, I'd just stop sharing altogether.  Say what you will about that, but tbh they treat the players alot better than many of us deserve oftentimes.  

And no, I'm NOT "whiteknighting" this....I believe DE's years of success speak for themselves without me having to stick up for them, or to "tell them how to do their job".

[Aggh]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Y'all act like DE "needs" us to tell them how to do their job, or that they would even read this if we, many of which have -0- experience in Game Development, even DID type up an entire 20 pages on "How-To-Succeed" for them.

It's not our place to "make sure they do it right".  They do what they do, they put it out, and we like it or we don't.  And we all move forward from there.  

I don't know why we're threatening DE before they've had a chance to do much more than present us with possible content.  Like good grief, if I ran DE, I'd just stop sharing altogether.  Say what you will about that, but tbh they treat the players alot better than many of us deserve oftentimes.  

And no, I'm NOT "whiteknighting" this....I believe DE's years of success speak for themselves without me having to stick up for them, or to "tell them how to do their job".

DE has had to be told to fix many, many systems over the last five years.  If they had kept their initial monetization (the pro system) this game would've crashed and burned shortly after obt.  The mod system, melee, movement, damage and many other systems have undergone massive reworks at the behest of the player base.  They've admitted over and over in streams and interviews that they take cues from the player base on what direction the game needs to go in and when they've crossed a line.  The core of warframe's success is that they've been open about development and have been able learn from the player base.  You aren't white knighting, you're arguing against a important part of DE's development philosophy.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Aggh

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

49 minutes ago, Aggh said:

DE has had to be told to fix many, many systems over the last five years.  If they had kept their initial monetization (the pro system) this game would've crashed and burned shortly after obt.  The mod system, melee, movement, damage and many other systems have undergone massive reworks at the behest of the player base.  They've admitted over and over in streams and interviews that they take cues from the player base on what direction the game needs to go in and when they've crossed a line.  The core of warframe's success is that they've been open about development and have been able learn from the player base.  You aren't white knighting, you're arguing against a important part of DE's development philosophy.

No, taking feedback FROM the players, and taking direct INSTRUCTION and WARNING from players, as if we are more their supervisors than their players, is what gets me.   

They don't need to be babysat, is what I'm getting at.  Feedback is good...and there's a forum space for that (Not GD), but to just be swinging our fingers around and shouting that "This is the new fail!" without reason to do so beyond "Well, this is in space, and the AW was in space, so therefore this will be fail, too!" .....and then further assert that we MUST "instruct DE" on how to do what they've clearly been successfully doing for over 5 years....just seems obnoxious to me, if I'm being honest.

[Lenyatta]

I still remember the wave of excitement and knee-jerking from AW in PoE. Was already imagining the possibilities it had, like going above the clouds just to find the huge ass flying eidolon they once showcased in a devstream, engaging in aerial combat while stimulating players to form parties with different kind of archwings and roles while finally giving a sense also to the odonata the amesha and the elytron, rather than just the Itzal to gather stuff around.

Turned out it was a bummer, they summed the entire AW system up to just a taxi with ridiculous height limits and a paper-thin lifespan everytime a grineer decides to send a homing rocket in your general direction

Railjack looks the same, a wonderful system that will probably be locked behind some hard-scripted missions and get repetitive and boring after the first 2 hours of it

Edited July 12, 2018 by Lenyatta

[Ketec]

Likely will suffer same fate - loot is weak, farming inefficient, loot extremely easy to miss due to distance and it being in all three dimensions over large distances.
Likely leveling up or even unlocking "new" ships is going to be mindless grind.

I have pretty much every weapon/frame in the game  - all but AW stuff - and those i do have are mostly unranked.

It needs some king of "drones will collect all the loot at the end and bring it to your ship" - so you don't have to go crazy trying to find that stuff as everyone rushes to the exit.

Affinity gain needs to match the slow killrate/mission duration.

Even worse if it gives no affinity to anything - it massively reduces missions value.

[Aggh]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

No, taking feedback FROM the players, and taking direct INSTRUCTION and WARNING from players, as if we are more their supervisors than their players, is what gets me.   

They don't need to be babysat, is what I'm getting at.  Feedback is good...and there's a forum space for that (Not GD), but to just be swinging our fingers around and shouting that "This is the new fail!" without reason to do so beyond "Well, this is in space, and the AW was in space, so therefore this will be fail, too!" .....and then further assert that we MUST "instruct DE" on how to do what they've clearly been successfully doing for over 5 years....just seems obnoxious to me, if I'm being honest.

What the hell are you on about?  No one is giving direct instructions, they're discussing things on the forums, making threads to drive discussion like this is how DE gets representative feedback.  And again it's completely reasonable to assume that DE might be capable of making the same mistakes.  You're putting them on a pedestal that they have never wanted and have constantly said they don't belong on.  By your logic we should've just shut up when DE was charging 20p to unlock a warframe's ult.  You're being silly, stop it.

It's not just that railjack is in space.  It's that it's new game mode with  very different mechanics from standard gameplay.  It's more risky than a new setting like POE or Venus.  It has the same exact potential pitfalls as archwing did.  If that potential pitfall isn't discussed, it's entirely possible DE might make the same mistakes.  They're developers, not infallible gods, the game has been a success for five years because they've kept their finger on the player base's pulse, not by turning their nose at any discussion that is a little bossy.

[Evanescent]

On 2018-07-11 at 1:24 AM, Aggh said:

Do you really think that the ships in railjack won't have new mods/upgrade systems?  The success of railjack is going to entirely depend on the same exact things that archwing lacked: Rewards, progression and content support.  All things that could get thrown to the wayside by any subsequent projects for warframe.  They swung and they missed with archwing, POE has been a relative success that Venus looks like it will expound upon; but railjack is a new gameplay system rather than a new setting, the potential for shortfalls are much greater and a lot of people in this thread are being a little too optimistic.  Instead of lashing out at anyone worried about the potential problems here, they should be pushing for DE to commit to Railjack just as hard as they did with POE.  If DE doesn't, it will fail.

I don't understand why you quoted me. But let me address your points regardless.

Do I really think they won't have mods or upgrade systems?

Absolutely not. Warframe is a looter shooter. It thrives on upgrading gear into better gear. 

Railjack has bigger if not the biggest potential potential to fail.

True. 

Now the thing that confuses me is that I did not address or refute any of these points. 

In any case, the point I was making is that if railjack is completely it's own thing with its own closed rewards loop it will fail hard. THAT is why archwing failed.

You could only earn archwing stuff in archwing, and your progress there would only progress archwing. You wouldn't use any of it outside of archwing and archwing wouldn't help you outside in the rest of the game.

What railjack needs is for you to be able to use your progress outside of it to further it, and use progress in it to further you in the rest of the game too-in other words, to be properly tied into the rest of the game. 

It needs to be meaningful.

That is all.

[Alaeacus]

The biggest thing that concerns me about Railjack, is the fail-tastic levels of coordination ship "role" management might require on a PUG.  I hate clans.  I don't want to pretend like I'm some internet person's friend.  But depending on how complicated the Railjack levels turn out to be, I may have to join a clan and find reliable people.  *groan*

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I love Archwing on the PoE, and after some practice found it -very- simple to control.  So...not saying your struggles aren't real, but maybe they're not true for everyone, yeah?

I know I'm in the majority. I have to use Itzal just to be able to stop exactly where I want and that's because I have to use its invisibility to do it. That's horrible and the fact this hasn't at all been addressed despite all the negative feedback they've gotten isn't encouraging when it comes to to their next attempt. I imagine that's why the new ship was moving so slowly, because that's all they could think of to try and fix it. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

10 hours ago, Aggh said:

What the hell are you on about?  No one is giving direct instructions, they're discussing things on the forums, making threads to drive discussion like this is how DE gets representative feedback.  And again it's completely reasonable to assume that DE might be capable of making the same mistakes.  You're putting them on a pedestal that they have never wanted and have constantly said they don't belong on.  By your logic we should've just shut up when DE was charging 20p to unlock a warframe's ult.  You're being silly, stop it.

It's not just that railjack is in space.  It's that it's new game mode with  very different mechanics from standard gameplay.  It's more risky than a new setting like POE or Venus.  It has the same exact potential pitfalls as archwing did.  If that potential pitfall isn't discussed, it's entirely possible DE might make the same mistakes.  They're developers, not infallible gods, the game has been a success for five years because they've kept their finger on the player base's pulse, not by turning their nose at any discussion that is a little bossy.

You completely missed my point and exaggerated what I was saying =_= ... I wasn't putting DE on pedestals.  I was simply saying....they have teams for this stuff.  They got where they are NOT just because we "told them how to do it", but because they already had a good idea of what they were doing.   Yes, they listen to feedback (which isn't the section this is posted in, btw) but that doesn't mean that the final decision is always, or even hardly ever, based on "Oh, well the players were noisy about it..so...guess it's gotta change!"

By that logic, parents would be serving pizza to kids for breakfast and donuts for dinner, just because kids whine loud enough.  Because after all, they're the consumers of said product, so...they must know best?

Just saying.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

On 2018-07-08 at 8:32 AM, Corvid said:

Except Railjack is actually building off the base gameplay. And while Archwing used to be removed from said gameplay, the devs have been taking steps to integrate it. Railjack is one of them.

 

Subjective by it's nature, but I'm pretty sure being able to walk around inside a capital ship, jump out of the airlock and fly to another one to take out it's core from within is going to fulfill that notion for many players. Not everything has to be tied to a reward loop.

Um, with this game if there's no reward loop it will die fast...grind and progression are synonymous.  Just always needs to be relative/ worth it.

I think they should make it ship to ship like (battlefront) cetus without the ground big, flyable lisets, traditional entry of crafts (able walk on board) grab controls and fly off. 

e.g. from the plains of cetus call liset, it lands, walk on board and take off.

hit map limits and enter atmosphere/ lobby instead of choosing after entering cetus gates. Or the hover over cetus and beam me up. 

As far as engagement I would like that halo (scarab battles) feel in the sky and on land.

Escorting where u have to defend hull breaches (enemies pour in) kill all enemies and get back into archwing then fend off outside enemies attacking hull and shields till destination is reached?

[Top_Kekkonen]

It will. It will suffer the same fate as raids did, raids were coop focused, and this mode is archwing based. It is a bad concoction of different aspects of Warframe that will not appeal to the majority of the player base, thus, it will have the same fate as archwing and raids. DE suffers from permanent amnesia sadly.

[Granitore]

I still hope they rework the archwings, i really like them but these constant "projectile incoming" messages are annoying especially when you are new to archwings and have not unlocked the ability to counter the projectiles and after you unlocked this ability you still have not enough energy to counter ALL incoming one-hit projectiles because first you need the mod for more energy...but to get the mod you first need to play the archwing missions.....so prepare for some deaths before you can even enjoy the archwing....

 

then there are also problems with the plains of eidolon.....it seems that every enemie has anti-archwing weapons....and every enemie is targeting you when you get into the air, that said titania can not even use her 4 because when she uses her fourth ability she counts as an archwing and gets targetet in an instant...also her 50% evasion on this skill does not work against anti-archwing so she gets one or two-shotted when she uses her 4....

after saying that then there is also the little bit (but not much) annoying fact that the archwing launcher that you build is an one-time use gear that you need to build again...and again....here is also a quote from the warframe wiki:

"Archwing Launchers can be equipped in a player's Gear menu. When activated in the Plains of Eidolon, a spherical beacon will be placed on the ground within the player's aim. The Archwing itself will be deployed 5 seconds after using the Archwing Launcher, after which players can equip the Archwing simply by walking onto it, similar to picking up a resource item. There is a 10-second cooldown before the Archwing Launcher can be used again.

Allies can use any Archwings called on the ground by the beacon, though only one Archwing per player can be set down on the ground at any time. If a player calls down an Archwing while a previous Archwing is still on the ground, the previous Archwing will disappear."

 

So the item for calling the archwing has an 10 seconds cd and you just can call one archwing per time...so when 2 players want to use a archwing they need to time their calls, when not one of them need to wait 10 extra seconds just to call his archwing again because it disappeared because the other player called his archwing one or two second after he called his own.

My solution to make the archwings more fun in the plains would be:

After seeing the new fortuna trailer and the hoverboards: make the archwing launcher an one-time-craft permanent item, delete most of the anti-air units that can easily one-shot every poor titania player because it should be fun to fly around not permanent fear that you get oneshotted (o course the automated turrets at the grineer outposts should still be able to shot the archwings), let us call more than one archwing at a time (one for each player of course) and make them more hoveboard-like (i saw a raidus where the hoverboard stayed as long as you are in this radius that looked cool).

My solution to make the archwing more fun in missions:

change the projectile incoming messages of the missions ...my biggest problem with this message is of course that i dont really see from what side this one-shot projectile is coming, most of the time i am dead before i had a chance to cast my anti-projectile ability again (to low energy, because there were to much "projectile incoming messages") of course i am some sort of new to the game, but i read most of the wiki and even there i could not find any information if these one-shot projectiles coming from an enemie or are just coming because there was the message...but these projectiles are the only reason i dont like archwing missions at all....i love the concept but getting oneshotted every time my energy gets low because of these messages is not fun...and the trench run missions with a time limit are also not really fun for new players...

but hearing what the hoverboard will be is something that i wish the archwing would be....since i really love the concept of the archwing...the railjack is nothing that i see as a replacement for the archwing, simply because the railjack is so big and just for open space and not the surfrace of a planet (like plains).