Is anyone working on AI any more?

[(PSN)Zero_029]

37 minutes ago, Arniox said:

*snip*

Ok I think I'm on the same page as you now. As in. I have a better understanding.
I admit, challenging Vets will ALWAYS be a problem. To be fair. No Game gets this right.
As veteran players have mastered the game & essentially know how to cope with anything thrown at them.
Even Dark Souls falls to this fact. (Folks have beaten it using a Rockband control damn it!)

I suppose the question then becomes...
If all the enemies can counter the players/on par with players (Basically the enemies are equal in power to a Warframe if we want to be blunt about it) then: "What becomes of Warframe's identity?"/"Does Warframe lose its identity?"
Essentially such a change would change Warframe from an Action Horde RPG Shooter to a Cover-Based Shooter (Ala: Division) which slows things down significantly impo.

[Bilge_]

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

OP will get a lot of "let stupid game be stupid" responses. 

Honestly, most of the responses herein are either stupid or completely missing the point, which is why I've not been responding.Before making the AI "smarter", DE needs to take a serious look at things that are objectively wrong with its AI, such as the examples I mention in the opening post.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Bilge_

[rune_me]

DE is not even capable of writing an AI that can navigate stairs or figure out how not to get stuck behind a crate, so asking for advanced AI is probably asking too much.

 

[Corvid]

48 minutes ago, rune_me said:

DE is not even capable of writing an AI that can navigate stairs or figure out how not to get stuck behind a crate, so asking for advanced AI is probably asking too much.

 

Strange, I've never seen any issues with the AI's pathfinding.

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-07-24 at 4:48 PM, Bilge_ said:

I'm new to the game so I don't know how much this has been looked at, but it wouldn't surprise me if the AI implementation is still the same basic set of rules created 5 years ago.

It isn't, for example: did you know that DE are now collecting pathing data from players which they can dynamically either use in the live map instance or post process in-aggregate to alter pathing nodes in map tiles?

So, yes DE do look at it, but they do not engage in single-use patching of behaviors, they prefer systemic, low-impact solutions given the number of enemies and the speed of Warframe.

AKA, it's harder than you think it is, and changes are subtle because DE don't want huge behavioral shifts upsetting the game balance, resulting in needing manual re-balancing of spawn numbers to maintain difficulty.

[(XBOX)calvina]

I think the only useful addition to AI would be an update in thier formation/pathing priorities, they die too fast to make use of anything that involves flanking, etc.

Having some priorities like taking cover behind shield lancers would be nice, similar to that of how units group around a nullifier.

Also, other things like enemies making sure they stay spread out instead of clumping together or forming a train, etc.

Not to mention adding some reaction animation sets, You go invis, suddenly pop up next to a grineer lancer, and they just snap thier gun towards your direction, no suprised jump or so.

 

 

Although, on a different note, having a Halo-esque AI in WArframe would be lols, just give em some more animation sets, voice cues, and they'll be more enjoyable to kill.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by (XB1)calvina

[Arniox]

14 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

This is the problem here. This is the exact problem why there will never be a solution to the difficulty problem. If you want to play a game where the lore writes your character as overpowered and it is translated into a game, there can never really be a challenge. An uphill battle is impossible to achieve when you demand the game to be a snowball going down a downhill slope because the lore said so. Most games that write you as a powerful being would still impose pretty standard restrictions on your actual gameplay mechanics because they don't want to go down route that Warframe has taken.

You want better and more challenging AI? You will have to give up some of your capabilities so that those improvements would ever bear fruit. It's ridiculous to believe that difficulty can be increased by simply "making the enemies better and smarter" while they are already dead before you see those improvements. There are way too much problems you have to address but a lot of people have knee jerk reactions to discussion them because it encroaches on their power fantasy

Very true, you have a point. What would you propose then? Because I don't think raising the level higher and higher for a challenge should be the end game... 

[Arniox]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I suppose the question then becomes...
If all the enemies can counter the players/on par with players (Basically the enemies are equal in power to a Warframe if we want to be blunt about it) then: "What becomes of Warframe's identity?"/"Does Warframe lose its identity?"
Essentially such a change would change Warframe from an Action Horde RPG Shooter to a Cover-Based Shooter (Ala: Division) which slows things down significantly impo

This is also true. In all honest I have no real idea how to make the game "hard" so to speak. It's a difficult thing to solve since vets are named vets for a reason. We've found ways of efficiently doing everything so nothing is hard. 

Although for your last point, I would say that if that happened, if enemies became on par with warframes, warframe wouldn't loose its identity. It would still be a space ninji hack and slash, but it would be closer to destiny with much harder enemies. 

But, and my last point: Is it really that bad that warframe is the way it? The whole hack and slash, kill everything mantra? 

Maybe warframe is fine this way, and the only way to creat challenge is through the mission variations and difficulty. 

[Unus]

14 hours ago, Bilge_ said:

Honestly, most of the responses herein are either stupid or completely missing the point, which is why I've not been responding.Before making the AI "smarter", DE needs to take a serious look at things that are objectively wrong with its AI, such as the examples I mention in the opening post.

Oh, uh, I'm. . . uh, sorry if my previous response wasn't worth the time to write it.

[KilluaWalker]

IMO besides what I'm assuming would be a pretty extensive overhaul needing a fair amount of resources, having bad AI also makes the player feel like an overpowered bad ass (something the devs want you to feel like).

[Kezriak]

On 2018-07-24 at 2:33 PM, Corvid said:

You'd be surprised as to what causes players to perceive enemies as "smarter".

I recall a tale from the original Halo CE's development where they pitted playtesters against two sets of AI, and asked them to state which one was smarter, as they wanted to choose between two equally processor-intensive versions of the enemies. Every single player said the second group was considerably smarter.

The truth is that both sets used the exact same code for their decision making. The only difference is that the second group had more shields/health, and thus had more time to put their existing tactics into practice while under fire.

Likewise, the much-vaunted F.E.A.R. AI was seen as being much smarter than it technically was due to a few factors (Multiple routes in the level geometry, a focus on reacting to the player's movements, and enemies that were fast and tough enough to make use of the first two). The most interesting way they present the illusion of intelligence (to me, at least) is by slightly changing the priorities of the AI.

Most "gamey" AI will have its priority be to "kill the player", but F.E.A.R. AI will instead focus on removing the threat to itself. While this seems like a case of semantics, the two have vastly different implications when put into practice, because the latter does not necessarily mean the former. If the AI has a gun pointed at it, one way to eliminate the threat is to duck out of the way, or get behind cover. This focus on self-preservation (as opposed to mindlessly attempting to gun down the player and receiving a bullet infusion in return) makes the AI feel much more believable, even if the best tactic, technically, is to bumrush the player with as many soldiers as possible.

It can be seen just how simple the AI actually is when the game (on rare occasions) pits multiple factions of AI against each other. They will typically just stand in cover at opposite ends of a hallway shooting at each other, with no attempts made to flank or get a better position.

Having the AI "talk" to each other (or to be more accurate, use audio cues to let the player know what they're doing) also helps. The player is more likely to feel like they have been outmanoeuvred when an AI pops up behind them if they hear the AI say "Flank them" beforehand (otherwise, the player is liable to assume that the game just spawned an enemy behind them for a cheap shot, even if the AI legitimately did use an alternate route to move around them).

In a game like Warframe, where we can shut down the enemy's ability to respond with the push of a button, it won't matter how smart they try to make the enemy, because we'll never get to see them in action. Hell, if you actually give them a chance to act, Grineer in particular will happily use Blunts and the Tilesets' natural features to set up chokepoints and ambushes. It's just that the abilities afforded to the players make rushing through these lines to break them far less of a danger than they reasonably should be (from a game design standpoint. I can guarantee that the AI would be seen as being considerably smarter if the bullet jump was removed (for the record, I am not advocating its removal. It is merely for the sake of example) and CC abilities were nerfed (this is something that I genuinely do advocate)).

This was easily one of, if not the most insightful read I've had on AI in gaming in the last while, critical thinking and a mentality like this would go a long way in the game IMO

[TARINunit9]

On 2018-07-24 at 8:48 AM, Bilge_ said:

Another good example is interception missions.

1. Groups of enemies spawn with the intention of going to a particular point, passing through uncaptured points and completely ignoring them.

This usually only happens if they spawn on top of the Tenno-controlled point. That's just frustrating to the player, to know the enemies can literally spawn on top of their objective. I don't think I've ever seen an enemy spawn at one point, walk to another point, while also passing through a third point; they would target the third point from the get go

[Misgenesis]

On 2018-07-24 at 9:33 PM, Corvid said:

In a game like Warframe, where we can shut down the enemy's ability to respond with the push of a button, it won't matter how smart they try to make the enemy, because we'll never get to see them in action.

Yet another aspect cutting our power back would improve. But try and suggest that and youll be met with loud opposition who will happily complain about other things caused by it.

[Atsia]

11 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Yet another aspect cutting our power back would improve. But try and suggest that and youll be met with loud opposition who will happily complain about other things caused by it.

DE is understandably hesitant to do this as there are far more ways for it to go wrong than for any change to actual balance anything out. "Cutting back" our power kinda goes against what they want for the game, the "power fantasy". No matter what they do they'll receive backlash for breaking the "emersion" of the game.

[Legion-Shields]

Having “smarter ai” doesn’t have to just mean better pathfinding and flanking. Having more sensible, tight-knit, and focused enemy squads with different specialists who react to the players by timing their abilities differently would be nice too. 

 

We can have one guy set up a turret with a limited cone of fire while another provides energy to keep the turret operating. Plop a medic in there who can also provide temporary cover for his squad. All the while guy number 4 is peppering the players with Nullifier grenades or something.

 

we can have a second squad who supports one big guy in a mech and which serves as a badass miniboss. 

 

Jusr give us us things to chip away at that don’t require one or both sides to resort to cheese to deal with.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Legion-Shields

[(PSN)Zero_029]

7 hours ago, Arniox said:

This is also true. In all honest I have no real idea how to make the game "hard" so to speak. It's a difficult thing to solve since vets are named vets for a reason. We've found ways of efficiently doing everything so nothing is hard. 

Although for your last point, I would say that if that happened, if enemies became on par with warframes, warframe wouldn't loose its identity. It would still be a space ninji hack and slash, but it would be closer to destiny with much harder enemies. 

But, and my last point: Is it really that bad that warframe is the way it? The whole hack and slash, kill everything mantra? 

Maybe warframe is fine this way, and the only way to creat challenge is through the mission variations and difficulty. 

Not to sound arrogant but to make the game hard is doable but at a great cost.
Sentients for example are a step in the right direction.
To make Grineer & Corpus tougher...well impo we need more Grineer Ghoul like enemies...preferably I think that after a certain stage in the upcoming storyline DE could have the Grineer Genome violently mutate & essentially the entire faction could then become like the Ghouls (but retaining what little intelligence Grineer have).
Then DE could really make the Grineer more violent, savage, & overwhelming as the Ghouls can easily kill a skilled player if they drop their guard.
Also this would allow DE to add new tricks to the Grineer.

Corpus, like the Grineer they need a storyline upgrade. One where they become more cybernetic, develop more robots/cyborgs, & reverse engineer more Orokin tech to combat the Warframes.

Infested...well they just need to adapt again. Like how the mutilist strain formed.

Void, I honestly think with The Man in the Wall free, I expect some storyline event to turn the Corrupted into full fledge Void Demons/Entities that are stronger & harder to kill than Sentients. Without a Void weakness even our Operators won't be able to trivialize fights with them.

Overall the goal to changes like this would be to shake up the factions, add new tech & abilities to them, and create ways for them to challenge players without depowering the player.
Ghouls are a great example. Melee attacks against them is asking for a bad time, they also work well as a unit, are savage, dodge player attacks, & are relentless.
A Corpus can at the very least develop ways to retrain, & combat/counter players to a certain degree, so that's one avenue.
Infested are meant to be a horde so aside from giving them some new attacks, stuns, & statuses I don't know what to do with them.
Perhaps Frameless Warframe enemies? AKA: Unarmored humanoid units with supernatural powers, have some units that merge with defeated infested units to transform into mini-boss (Juggernaut/Specter) in power enemies?

Edit:________________________________________

The goal is to create enemies that are by default tougher & are designed around new AI precepts, thus creating situations & battles that force players to think before they act.

IE: Ghoul Toxic Freeze clouds upon death, Self-destruction, merging with fallen comrades to be reborn/buffed, etc.

Basically new mechanics tha make factions feel unique while forcing players to think outside the box.

Don't want Infested merged units. Burn/Vaporize the body.

Use range on Ghouls, etc.

_____________________________________________

I have no issue with Warframe as it is. But I understand the call for better AI.
As Veterans many players just feel unchallenged. That's the problem when you reach the top of the mountain/end of the journey. You're done.
A saying I like posting: "It's the journey that counts. Not when you get there."

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

19 hours ago, (XB1)calvina said:

I think the only useful addition to AI would be an update in thier formation/pathing priorities, they die too fast to make use of anything that involves flanking, etc.

Having some priorities like taking cover behind shield lancers would be nice, similar to that of how units group around a nullifier.

Also, other things like enemies making sure they stay spread out instead of clumping together or forming a train, etc.

Not to mention adding some reaction animation sets, You go invis, suddenly pop up next to a grineer lancer, and they just snap thier gun towards your direction, no suprised jump or so.

 

 

Although, on a different note, having a Halo-esque AI in WArframe would be lols, just give em some more animation sets, voice cues, and they'll be more enjoyable to kill.

 

So, you say having them group together would be good....then say they should stay spread out.  And you wonder why DE hasn't followed these ideas yet, lol

Truth be told, the AI is plenty smart, it's a horde style game, though...it's not meant to be us vs individual enemies.

There are bosses for that sort of thing.

I think players are trying to turn Warframe into something it's not, instead of just playing another game when they want something different.

And as for scaling, enemies already can get super strong.  I have no interest in making Grineer Lancers that are on-par with a frame, though.  That kinda defeats the purpose of a frame.  It'd be like having bank robbers that can fight on par with Superman.  What would set him apart at that point?

Warframes are unique weapons in that only the Tenno can truly master them . If you want enemies that are on-par with you, fight bosses, Acolytes/Stalker, or....ya know....Conclave, aka literally other players which will provide the challenge you seek.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

38 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

Having “smarter ai” doesn’t have to just mean better pathfinding and flanking. Having more sensible, tight-knit, and focused enemy squads with different specialists who react to the players by timing their abilities differently would be nice too. 

 

We can have one guy set up a turret with a limited cone of fire while another provides energy to keep the turret operating. Plop a medic in there who can also provide temporary cover for his squad. All the while guy number 4 is peppering the players with Nullifier grenades or something.

 

we can have a second squad who supports one big guy in a mech and which serves as a badass miniboss. 

 

Jusr give us us things to chip away at that don’t require one or both sides to resort to cheese to deal with.

 

 

We already have Nox squads, Heavy Gunners, Shield Osprey and Nullifiers.  We also get Juggernauts, which people just run past.  More players could play Arena mode, or even Conclave for better opponents, but they don't.  People want it to be easy to mow down their enemies. They love the numbers popping up all over the screen.  

What you're asking for more or less already exists.

The issue is players will ALWAYS find a way to break or cheese things.  DE can't do much about that, tbh.  If DE made a giant mech General, there would be a YouTube video up within hours on "The Meta Way to MELT Mechs!" and everyone would have that build ready to go.

DE can't control that.   Changing the situation simply changes the meta, but it doesn't stop players from adapting to it.  

Regardless, people need to stop trying to make Warframe into COD or Division.  Warframe is Warframe.  It's -okay- if it's not something else.  I don't want it to be anything but Warframe.
 

[Corvid]

59 minutes ago, Kezriak said:

This was easily one of, if not the most insightful read I've had on AI in gaming in the last while, critical thinking and a mentality like this would go a long way in the game IMO

I'm pleased to have entertained you so. If you want more information regarding F.E.A.R. AI and how it works, I recommend watching Whitelight's F.E.A.R. 13 Years Later video. He goes into more detail about what the AI is capable of on the technical level.

39 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Yet another aspect cutting our power back would improve. But try and suggest that and youll be met with loud opposition who will happily complain about other things caused by it.

And there's the dilemma. I personally joined back when Forma and Corrupted Mods didn't exist, so Warframe in my eyes never really had this unrestricted power fantasy aspect as part of its core.

Back then, a weapon could have bad stats but still be useful because it had built-in polarities that allowed you to equip more mods on it, and there was a choice between having multiple low-level mods or a small number of high-cost enhancements. Since you couldn't enhance an Ability stat above 45%, there was also a distinct lack of game-breaking on that front.

It wasn't all great back then, of course. The damage system was one note (Armour Piercing/Ignore or Get Out), and some of the actual abilities were a tad naff. I am of the opinion that Forma in particular was a mistake, however, as it increases the amount of potential power available to the player with no cost (resetting the item's level really doesn't count with how many affinity farms there are).

I think DE should be more willing to experiment with these systems (make use of that Beta tag, y'know?) and try things out. Maybe have a two month period where all the polarisation system is removed and all weapons are reverted to their default polarities. See what effect that has on build diversity. Or maybe try a hybrid of the mod system and a skill tree, where enhancing one aspect of your frame is to the detriment of the others.

18 minutes ago, Atsia said:

DE is understandably hesitant to do this as there are far more ways for it to go wrong than for any change to actual balance anything out. "Cutting back" our power kinda goes against what they want for the game, the "power fantasy". No matter what they do they'll receive backlash for breaking the "emersion" of the game.

They want a power fantasy, but they also want us to have challenge and meaningful endgame content (something the players themselves have been clamoring for). The problem comes from the fact that Warframe's sandbox in its current incarnation is incapable of supporting the latter.

Remember that according to one of the devstreams, the highest enemy level that the game is actually balanced around is in the 30-40 range. When's the last time such levels have actually been seen as threatening? Players complain about armour scaling, yet it only becomes an issue when players operate outside of the game's boundaries.

Dialling back the amount of power available to players has the potential to give us a system where we have meaningful choices to make regarding our loadout (as opposed to the current setup where the only "choices" are pre-determined cookie-cutter meta builds). It's possible to still feel like an utter badass, yet have enemies be dangerous enough to be a threat to you. It's just a matter of tuning the amount of player power.

For the record, I'm not some challenge-seeking tryhard. I can count the number of games I've beaten on difficulties higher than Normal on one finger, and the number of games that I've 100%ed on one more. But the thing is, even easier difficulties need to have some degree of challenge to remain engaging.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I have no interest in making Grineer Lancers that are on-par with a frame, though.

Then it's a good thing that nobody's actually advocating that. It's possible to still have fodder enemies in a challenging game. It's just a matter of having them be properly supported by either themselves or superior enemies.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

We already have Nox squads, Heavy Gunners, Shield Osprey and Nullifiers.  We also get Juggernauts, which people just run past.

Then perhaps making the missions themselves less speedrun-able would be to the game's benefit. I would be fine with having individual missions go slower if they were more rewarding to compensate.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

More players could play Arena mode, or even Conclave for better opponents, but they don't.

We don't just want better opponents, we want said opponents to be integrated into the main experience. Arena modes really aren't.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

The issue is players will ALWAYS find a way to break or cheese things.  DE can't do much about that, tbh.  If DE made a giant mech General, there would be a YouTube video up within hours on "The Meta Way to MELT Mechs!" and everyone would have that build ready to go.

Which is why I feel a rework to player capabilities is all the more crucial.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Regardless, people need to stop trying to make Warframe into COD or Division.  Warframe is Warframe.  It's -okay- if it's not something else.  I don't want it to be anything but Warframe.

Nobody is saying to make the game more like those games.

Warframe is a game that has changed significantly since its original launch. Back then, enemies were a bit spongy, so headshots were necessary to fight with efficiency, abilities were for the most part useful, but not game breakingly so, and you generally had to put effort into completing a mission without dying. While Zorencoptering was a thing, the overall pace of the game was a bit less breakneck, so running past enemies in the relatively cramped tilesets was a good way to get shot to pieces.

In other words, the game needed a bit more in the way of skill, which meant successful Tenno were actually badasses (as opposed to now, where we seem to have redefined the term "push button warfare"). Since then, it has mutated into an unbalanced mess, where the vast majority of enemies are wiped out in seconds.

You say "Warframe is Warframe", but to me and several others, Warframe as it currently exists is not Warframe. Not even close.

[Legion-Shields]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

We already have Nox squads, Heavy Gunners, Shield Osprey and Nullifiers.  We also get Juggernauts, which people just run past.  More players could play Arena mode, or even Conclave for better opponents, but they don't.  People want it to be easy to mow down their enemies. They love the numbers popping up all over the screen.  

What you're asking for more or less already exists.

The issue is players will ALWAYS find a way to break or cheese things.  DE can't do much about that, tbh.  If DE made a giant mech General, there would be a YouTube video up within hours on "The Meta Way to MELT Mechs!" and everyone would have that build ready to go.

DE can't control that.   Changing the situation simply changes the meta, but it doesn't stop players from adapting to it.  

Regardless, people need to stop trying to make Warframe into COD or Division.  Warframe is Warframe.  It's -okay- if it's not something else.  I don't want it to be anything but Warframe.
 

Well in the case of the mech squad, a cheese strat wouldn’t exist because the mech relies on its support just as much as the support relies on the mech. The closest you could get is to approach them in a certain way that makes them react in a certain way that leaves an opening that gives you an opportunity to take out whoever is the most troublesome squad mate for whichever frame you happen to be using at the moment. The whole point of my suggestion was to avoid boiling confrontations down to stats and health bar-melters that is won in the arsenal before players even leave their orbiters.

 

the mech does a lot of damage but has low mobility, which gives it exactly the weakness you described. The mech is supported by a squad, each of which has a different task and brings different utility to their team. One provides radar that allows the mech to possibly have its guns trained on you before you can peek around a corner to shoot or cast an ability. Another saps energy from abilities cast on the mech itself (or other squad members) that can be used to power dangerous offensive abilities. Yet another can set up a field that slows Warframes that get caught inside it. 

 Then in top of these abilities you can throw on different status resists and the like. It doesn’t have to be decided on how much time a player has sunk into the game (although the higher the enemy level, the more varied and dangerous their abilities and synergy should be).

 

Which warframe and load out you are using should affect which squad mate becomes your priority, and whether or not they leave themselves open to you should be affected by how they are affected by your team mates as well.

 

 

I kind of agree with your last point, in that the game is fine as it is and people shouldn’t be surprised that reaching the pinnacle of a power fantasy will leave them bored, but this has been going on for so long I may as well just toss more fuel into the fire.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Legion-Shields

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

32 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I'm pleased to have entertained you so. If you want more information regarding F.E.A.R. AI and how it works, I recommend watching Whitelight's F.E.A.R. 13 Years Later video. He goes into more detail about what the AI is capable of on the technical level.

And there's the dilemma. I personally joined back when Forma and Corrupted Mods didn't exist, so Warframe in my eyes never really had this unrestricted power fantasy aspect as part of its core.

Back then, a weapon could have bad stats but still be useful because it had built-in polarities that allowed you to equip more mods on it, and there was a choice between having multiple low-level mods or a small number of high-cost enhancements. Since you couldn't enhance an Ability stat above 45%, there was also a distinct lack of game-breaking on that front.

It wasn't all great back then, of course. The damage system was one note (Armour Piercing/Ignore or Get Out), and some of the actual abilities were a tad naff. I am of the opinion that Forma in particular was a mistake, however, as it increases the amount of potential power available to the player with no cost (resetting the item's level really doesn't count with how many affinity farms there are).

I think DE should be more willing to experiment with these systems (make use of that Beta tag, y'know?) and try things out. Maybe have a two month period where all the polarisation system is removed and all weapons are reverted to their default polarities. See what effect that has on build diversity. Or maybe try a hybrid of the mod system and a skill tree, where enhancing one aspect of your frame is to the detriment of the others.

They want a power fantasy, but they also want us to have challenge and meaningful endgame content (something the players themselves have been clamoring for). The problem comes from the fact that Warframe's sandbox in its current incarnation is incapable of supporting the latter.

Remember that according to one of the devstreams, the highest enemy level that the game is actually balanced around is in the 30-40 range. When's the last time such levels have actually been seen as threatening? Players complain about armour scaling, yet it only becomes an issue when players operate outside of the game's boundaries.

Dialling back the amount of power available to players has the potential to give us a system where we have meaningful choices to make regarding our loadout (as opposed to the current setup where the only "choices" are pre-determined cookie-cutter meta builds). It's possible to still feel like an utter badass, yet have enemies be dangerous enough to be a threat to you. It's just a matter of tuning the amount of player power.

For the record, I'm not some challenge-seeking tryhard. I can count the number of games I've beaten on difficulties higher than Normal on one finger, and the number of games that I've 100%ed on one more. But the thing is, even easier difficulties need to have some degree of challenge to remain engaging.

Then it's a good thing that nobody's actually advocating that. It's possible to still have fodder enemies in a challenging game. It's just a matter of having them be properly supported by either themselves or superior enemies.

Then perhaps making the missions themselves less speedrun-able would be to the game's benefit. I would be fine with having individual missions go slower if they were more rewarding to compensate.

We don't just want better opponents, we want said opponents to be integrated into the main experience. Arena modes really aren't.

Which is why I feel a rework to player capabilities is all the more crucial.

Nobody is saying to make the game more like those games.

Warframe is a game that has changed significantly since its original launch. Back then, enemies were a bit spongy, so headshots were necessary to fight with efficiency, abilities were for the most part useful, but not game breakingly so, and you generally had to put effort into completing a mission without dying. While Zorencoptering was a thing, the overall pace of the game was a bit less breakneck, so running past enemies in the relatively cramped tilesets was a good way to get shot to pieces.

In other words, the game needed a bit more in the way of skill, which meant successful Tenno were actually badasses (as opposed to now, where we seem to have redefined the term "push button warfare"). Since then, it has mutated into an unbalanced mess, where the vast majority of enemies are wiped out in seconds.

You say "Warframe is Warframe", but to me and several others, Warframe as it currently exists is not Warframe. Not even close.

All due respect, I think there are two issues with this.

1.)  Warframe may be in Beta, but the very real truth is that 250 families rely on the income from working at DE.  They literally cannot afford to just "take 2 months to try something out".  If they lose the majority of what they've built up, many could lose their jobs overnight.  Warframe is completely free aside from voluntary purchases.  There is no guaranteed income per player.  Likely, yes, but not guaranteed.

2.) Regarding Warframe no longer being what you remember as "Warframe".  DE may have started with what Warframe -was-, but that doesn't mean that's where they wanted it to go.  You need to let it grow up, let it evolve.   Image if we never moved away from the Model T Ford because newer efficient vehicles aren't "what it started out as".   That'd be terrible.

Or, more close-to-home, imagine a friend being upset with you because your tastes in games or food or clothes changed.... "Man, you're just not the person you used to be.  This isn't you".   As if you're not allowed to grow up.  THAT'S what many players in this thread are doing to DE.  "No, you have to be what WE want!"  Isn't that what caused Dark Sector to mutate into what it was, pushing off Warframe initially in the first place?

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

All due respect, I think there are two issues with this.

1.)  Warframe may be in Beta, but the very real truth is that 250 families rely on the income from working at DE.  They literally cannot afford to just "take 2 months to try something out".  If they lose the majority of what they've built up, many could lose their jobs overnight.  Warframe is completely free aside from voluntary purchases.  There is no guaranteed income per player.  Likely, yes, but not guaranteed.

2.) Regarding Warframe no longer being what you remember as "Warframe".  DE may have started with what Warframe -was-, but that doesn't mean that's where they wanted it to go.  You need to let it grow up, let it evolve.   Image if we never moved away from the Model T Ford because newer efficient vehicles aren't "what it started out as".   That'd be terrible.

Or, more close-to-home, imagine a friend being upset with you because your tastes in games or food or clothes changed.... "Man, you're just not the person you used to be.  This isn't you".   As if you're not allowed to grow up.  THAT'S what many players in this thread are doing to DE.  "No, you have to be what WE want!"  Isn't that what caused Dark Sector to mutate into what it was, pushing off Warframe initially in the first place?

Both the players and the devs want an engaging endgame. To accomplish that, the power fantasy has to give, if only a little.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

12 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

Well in the case of the mech squad, a cheese strat wouldn’t exist because the mech relies on its support just as much as the support relies on the mech. The closest you could get is to approach them in a certain way that makes them react in a certain way that leaves an opening that gives you an opportunity to take out whoever is the most troublesome squad mate for whichever frame you happen to be using at the moment. The whole point of my suggestion was to avoid boiling confrontations down to stats and health bar-melters that is won in the arsenal before players even leave their orbiters.

 

the mech does a lot of damage but has low mobility, which gives it exactly the weakness you described. The mech is supported by a squad, each of which has a different task and brings different utility to their team. One provides radar that allows the mech to possibly have its guns trained on you before you can peek around a corner to shoot or cast an ability. Another saps energy from abilities cast on the mech itself (or other squad members) that can be used to power dangerous offensive abilities. Yet another can set up a field that slows Warframes that get caught inside it. 

 Then in top of these abilities you can throw on different status resists and the like. It doesn’t have to be decided on how much time a player has sunk into the game (although the higher the enemy level, the more varied and dangerous their abilities and synergy should be).

 

Which warframe and load out you are using should affect which squad mate becomes your priority, and whether or not they leave themselves open to you should be affected by how they are affected by your team mates as well.

 

 

I agree with your last point, but this has been going on for so long I may as well just toss more fuel into the fire.

 

This all exists already, though.

Literally, a Nox walks in with an Arctic Eximus (if not one itself), a Leech Eximus, and several Scorpions/Lancers.  This happens all the time.  They DO already have their guns on you because AI does that.

People will cheese it.  I personally hate cheesing things, but certainly could, as-is.  Equinox > sleep 'em all > pick off the weaker ones > murderize the Nox with my Soma P.   Win.

I'm not saying that to be a $&*^, I'm just trying to point out how the suggestion isn't as revolutionary or simple as it might seem.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Both the players and the devs want an engaging endgame. To accomplish that, the power fantasy has to give, if only a little.

I don't disagree, but then when DE tries to adjust that.....people cry "NERF! NERF! RAGEQUIT! RAAAAAAAAAAEG!!!!"   Every. Time.  It's pathetic.  

DE has shown plenty that they are working actively on balancing the game, all the time.   We may not see what they see, but personally I've yet to have an issue with their "solutions".

Regardless, my point stands.  DE has to tread carefully because jobs are on the line, it's not just some game on our systems, it's real people on the other end who depend on that game's consistent playerbase....and we need to allow the devs to adjust the game as-needed to maintain, not just balance but also customer satisfaction -with the majority-.  

Endgame is there, people just don't seem to want to play it.  And if you're referring to "in the starchart", we have more "Starchart" coming this year, don't forget.  So, DE is well aware, I'm sure....it just takes time to implement.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Dialling back the amount of power available to players has the potential to give us a system where we have meaningful choices to make regarding our loadout (as opposed to the current setup where the only "choices" are pre-determined cookie-cutter meta builds). It's possible to still feel like an utter badass, yet have enemies be dangerous enough to be a threat to you. It's just a matter of tuning the amount of player power.

To be fair. It's easier to buff things than to nerf.

I'd rather see enemies get buffed than players get nerfed.

Think it of it as a timeline.

By the time a player has reached Sedna or Kuva Fortress, the in-game timeline should have progressed to where the Grineer have gained more experience vs the player & thus have developed new units/tech, militant training, alarms, & etc in an attempt to counter & defeat the player.

Edit:

I mention this because the power fantasy IS what Warframe is.

But everyone keeps approaching it wrong.

The majority are saying "Nerf Players". That's not the answer. The Power fantasy should be address by developing stronger enemies.

By the "late" game. We'll say: Post Second Dream, Elite/Endgame Units should start to trickle in. Post Chains of Harrow those Units should be the common enemy in missions/areas of that level range. (IE: 30+)

Like how Lancers become Elite Lancers & so forth.

But now it's a brand new game as the new units are now as tough as mini-bosses. Enemies that are more like Kuva Guardians (ie: requiring Operator & Warframe co-op)

Some ofyou are groaning at the idea of Operator being a more significant role of the game. But it adds a new level of depth to combat & thus challenge as now even basic enemies have mechanics. See that RPG gatling gun enemy? You need to Void dash him then use a ground finisher to kill him.

See that Bursa-Gear? (Metal Gear Bursa) Overload its Void Shield with Void Beam then attack via Warframe.

Void Demon? Fight void with void.

Infested Fleshspawn? Use Warframe only or it'll capture your operator & kill them.

Grineer Imperial Guardian? Use Void blast to stun it. Then warframe to get behind it, use melee attacks to it's back to cut off it's armor. Then kill it as a normal enemy. Or...

Have another player distract it while you go behind & cut the armor off.

Essentially this helps players retain their power but just as the players grew up, so did the enemies.

Now players have a reason to co-op more, communicate, & they haven't lost any power.

Of course enemy spawns would need to be adjusted to account for all this...

Edited July 27, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029