PVP is Fine! it needs no change!

[seprent]

Just now, Loza03 said:

I think it was Confetti.

My trusty Murder Guns were rendered quite low by their rebalancing.

get the hawaii looking skin and maybe it will shoot bits of coconut atleast them it might be refreshing and deadly to those with severe allergies 

[Loza03]

Just now, seprent said:

get the hawaii looking skin and maybe it will shoot bits of coconut atleast them it might be refreshing and deadly to those with severe allergies 

Eh, a 1/500 chance that they die is better than what they're doing now I suppose...

[seprent]

Just now, Loza03 said:

Eh, a 1/500 chance that they die is better than what they're doing now I suppose...

that if your ever hungry just bring them along at least have something to eat 

[Loza03]

Just now, seprent said:

that if your ever hungry just bring them along at least have something to eat 

Not that fond of coconuts myself to be honest. 

[LapuLapo]

1 minute ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Your point is wrong. 

Literally everyone who has set up a conclave loadout - which means everyone who's tried it since you kind of have to in order to even play - can see clearly that damage numbers and other values are different from PvE. It's not only common sense, but it's something you're forced to look at before you're allowed to start. 

So, yes, people know stuff is changed. They just don't like it.

Yeah. it's essentially a completely different game to me. Which is my difficulty with conclave. I actually like conclave a bit after forcing myself to experiment and try stuff out. (Thanks, Thundermiter) But it feels very different from the rest of warframe, and getting used to those differences was pretty miserable.

Like a lot of frame abilities get either completely neutered or heavily altered to make sense in PvP.  And there's special conclave debuffs that mess up your mobility unlike every other debuff you encounter in the game (besides cold procs, i guess). So not all of the differences are perfectly clear to figure out. 

 

[NNKanell]

14 минут назад, Loza03 сказал:

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

What's with Lato and Braton being so powerful in Conclave anyway?

It's a good weapon, but I play with strun, which you can buy for credits.

[DarkwarriorJ]

Conclave's fundamental problem is not balance in terms of warframes or weapons. I've seen games where half the entire game was broken and horrifically imbalanced, and they still have a billion times the players (ok, not literally, but still). Honestly, given just how many weapons exist, Conclave is quite terrifyingly well balanced compared to just about every other game I'm used to out there. 

The most commonly cited issue with conclave is that people don't want to join in just to be stomped by pros. This applies doubly so for Lunaro, where my first match featured a guy on the other team who single-handedly curbstomped my team without anyone on my side even knowing that the hell was going on. This is not strictly an issue of balance, unless you mean skill balancing. Conclave's fundamental problem is that skill differences are, by its very mechanics, amplified way the hell up - through the stratosphere compared to most games that I'm aware off. There needs to be something to drop the skill gap or render it irrelevant - skill based matchmaking is commonly cited, but I also will propose noobtubes, increasing damage taken by leading players, and aim-assist (connected to the aim button?).

The second fundamental issue is that it's radically different from PvE despite having the same core mechanics, so it's trying to sell itself to an audience that isn't particularly interested in the skill grind as opposed to the level grind in the first place. This is much harder to resolve.

 

 

Oh, and someone mentioned everything being blurry. I turned off motion blur in my warframe settings a couple dozen hours in and forgot that was a thing; that should be turned off by default for goddamned crying out loud.

[(PSN)lokaspoka]

10 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

People don't want to play it, because it's hard to learn, and they don't want to get stomped by high-level conclave players.

the cat and mouse  game of bullet jumping and bullet rolling away gets tiring why ppl quit after 1 match

melees that kill with 1/2 hits . slow paced shooters have loyalty for their pvp look at 2103 splinter cell black list 2013 battlefield 4/ destiny 1

Edited August 21, 2018 by (PS4)lokaspoka

[CandyManCriminal]

if the PvP could be how Global Agenda's PvP was I'd be down for it
but I don't think it'd happen or would fit, so I'll stay out of PvP

[LapuLapo]

14 hours ago, CandyManCriminal said:

if the PvP could be how Global Agenda's PvP was I'd be down for it
but I don't think it'd happen or would fit, so I'll stay out of PvP

How did Global Agenda's PvP work and how would it translate to Warframe?

[CandyManCriminal]

16 minutes ago, LapuLapo said:

How did Global Agenda's PvP work and how would it translate to Warframe?

it was objective based team vs team with a focus on the different classes working together
it wouldn't translate very well i think

[Hypermega]

23 minutes ago, CandyManCriminal said:

it was objective based team vs team with a focus on the different classes working together
it wouldn't translate very well i think

i would have thought a left for dead style mode where we can be nox's or bursas etc would be more obvious or look at what doom eternal is doing? or watch dogs a couple years back! would you flag yourself to be attackable by player stalkers? how about POE battle royal with just our ops finding random weapons (cringey but possible)i mean i just want pvp to be less caustic in its presentation but there's lots of obvious low hanging fruit

[Marcooose]

I'd like to remind everyone to keep your comments on topic and to be respectful to one another. Please keep in this in mind moving forward on this thread!

[LapuLapo]

3 hours ago, Hypermega said:

i would have thought a left for dead style mode where we can be nox's or bursas etc would be more obvious or look at what doom eternal is doing? or watch dogs a couple years back! would you flag yourself to be attackable by player stalkers? how about POE battle royal with just our ops finding random weapons (cringey but possible)i mean i just want pvp to be less caustic in its presentation but there's lots of obvious low hanging fruit

I'd be into something like a time-attack Sanctuary onslaught-style competitive horde mode. Possibility to send hit squads or additional enemies (spawn some scrambus or nullies by hacking panels?) to mess with the other team, and maybe limited opportunities to invade the other instance and kill players for big points. (But also risk a portion of your own points+progress if you get killed in the teamfight)

Or maybe an Invasion-skinned ship-to-ship fight, one squad of Tenno fighting for the Grineer ship, one for the Corpus, score based on who completes their objective faster (i.e. Spy  or Sabotage etc.) and opportunities to kill the other squad. But maybe that's too far in the direction of PvPvE.

Hell, maybe just a parkour race mode? That would honestly be cool to include as part of the existing Conclave roster since it forces you to adapt your mobility to stay competitive which feels like a core mechanic to Conclave. This would take the "how do I aim a bow mid-bullet jump and not get sniped" out of the equation and let newer Conclave Tenno get used to double-roll-slide-bullet-cancel dodges.

[ant99999]

Oh well, that was unexpected.

Anyway, to reintroduce my main point answering @DarkwarriorJ:

There is not much of a real difference between PvP and PvE mechanics, it is more of a difference in players' attitude which makes them so drastically different in skill requirement. PvE makes all the advanced maneuvers an option, PvP however makes them a requirement, yet they are there in both cases.

This leads to the idea that the solution lies not in modifying the Conclave mechanics, but rather in it's positioning. So it somehow should try to be more appealing to arena shooter players instead of Warframe PvE players.

I hope nothing's wrong this time.

[Stormdragon]

Conclave is mostly fine, i like having a part of this sci-fi ninja game that actually encourages making use of the mechanics developed for it and where scaling is set by getting smarter and by sharpening mechanical skills.

With that out of the way, i'd be happy if we had some more presence from the conclave team in this subforum in the same way as every other feedback subforum does. This way we, players who enjoy conclave, can get some knowledge behind certain changes and an actual room for discussion with devs regarding important topics such as balance, matchmaking, and possible future changes.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Stormdragon
Removed a lot of confusing text.

[DarkwarriorJ]

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

Oh well, that was unexpected.

Anyway, to reintroduce my main point answering @DarkwarriorJ:

There is not much of a real difference between PvP and PvE mechanics, it is more of a difference in players' attitude which makes them so drastically different in skill requirement. PvE makes all the advanced maneuvers an option, PvP however makes them a requirement, yet they are there in both cases.

This leads to the idea that the solution lies not in modifying the Conclave mechanics, but rather in it's positioning. So it somehow should try to be more appealing to arena shooter players instead of Warframe PvE players.

I hope nothing's wrong this time.

That is true. I mean, PvP and PvE mechanics are basically identical; just that because you're facing enemies who do not have the same mechanics in PvE, while you are facing your equal in PvP, that's how and where the amplification occurs. I wouldn't so much say it is the player's attitude as much as the target's attitude - in one, they're potatos getting rotflolstomped; in the other, they actually try (PvE and PvP, respectively).

How might it become more appealing to Arena Shooter players though? I mean, I know it will never attract the crowd that just doesn't have any interest in anything remotely like this format, but I still have hope held out for there being a segment of warframe's PvE community that also plays PvP at other times, such as myself. And Arena Shooter seems like a really hard sell these days; sure it may be due to lack of developers even trying to appeal to that market, but I don't know of any arena shooter games that have done well. Quake Champions is the last, best hope for that niche as far as I can tell (and I'd play it if it were free to play).

The reason I propose some mechanical changes, especially to the Free for All format, is because I've heard that's what Quake and Unreal had during the height of their popularity. Instagib reduces the skill needed to get a kill by a lot, powerups lets noobs catch better players with their pants down (though it tends to do it the other way around), and though they never did stuff quite as far reaching or invasive as 'aim assist' (which I really meant just to throw out there rather than actually supporting that), I do feel like Conclave is currently incomplete to some degree. The core mechanics feel pretty solid, but there needs to be something more. Better music, better getting hit sounds, ways to make it easier on a newcomer without making it impossible to get better, stuff like that.

[nerfinator6]

jk lol its broken*

[Tyreaus]

First off, I agree with a lot of what's said in terms of improving Conclave, esp. ideas of assisting newer players in some fashion. That's why I don't play any more. It isn't Dark Souls, "git gud" doesn't work because the challenge is consistently inconsistent and, thus, there's no clear solution. (Beyond spending months to wait for that one event so you can get the 1/2 shot sniper, by which time you've forgotten Conclave exists or your passion for it has died from impatience...)

Personally: Conclave needs to sort out its identity. Or identities. I hear a lot about it being an arena shooter, yet it lacks a universally accessible array of weapons, and has movement options suitable for a stealth game, and hero shooter mechanics sans objectives. Those elements are great for PvE because they each match the different game modes (Spy, Defence, Rescue, etc.) and let us play how we want, but it's a horrendously disorganized mish-mash in PvP. It fails just about every "if you like A, you'll like this" from which it borrows elements. Like arena shooters? Enjoy having to grind to use that super sniper you got 2-shot with. Like stealth gameplay? Big red outlines to highlight enemies ruins that. Like hero shooters? Lack of team-based objective. Like the horde aspect of PvE? No fodder enemies.

They don't even need to stick to one, they could build modes for each of those styles (one for DM, one for Spy, one for Defence (with a horde), one for Hijack). But the way they're thrown together like that means the vast majority of people who like a particular style of gameplay (even a particular PvE game mode) are going to find something very wrong with Conclave.

TL;DR: Conclave is messed up and, beside the fixes other people mentioned, it needs to figure out what it wants to be and do that particular thing right.

P.S.: I have to say this:

On 2018-08-20 at 4:51 PM, Hypermega said:

when i ask other players and friends why they don't queue its because they don't want to get farmed by higher levels. they dont know that gear is rebalanced for fair play

If you're asking for your friends' opinions, and then immediately dismissing them, you're doing it so very, very, very wrong. If you care what your friends (or other people in general) think or feel, you need to stop, take a step back, ask questions, and listen to every detail of what they're telling you.

And to make something very clear: Balance on paper =/= feeling like it's balanced. Feel trumps numbers. Saying "Hey everything is balanced and here's all the data" doesn't make the experience feel balanced. There's a reason DE made spreadsheet jokes when showing off usage statistics. Nobody feels spreadsheets.

[DarkwarriorJ]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

First off, I agree with a lot of what's said in terms of improving Conclave, esp. ideas of assisting newer players in some fashion. That's why I don't play any more. It isn't Dark Souls, "git gud" doesn't work because the challenge is consistently inconsistent and, thus, there's no clear solution. (Beyond spending months to wait for that one event so you can get the 1/2 shot sniper, by which time you've forgotten Conclave exists or your passion for it has died from impatience...)

Personally: Conclave needs to sort out its identity. Or identities. I hear a lot about it being an arena shooter, yet it lacks a universally accessible array of weapons, and has movement options suitable for a stealth game, and hero shooter mechanics sans objectives. Those elements are great for PvE because they each match the different game modes (Spy, Defence, Rescue, etc.) and let us play how we want, but it's a horrendously disorganized mish-mash in PvP. It fails just about every "if you like A, you'll like this" from which it borrows elements. Like arena shooters? Enjoy having to grind to use that super sniper you got 2-shot with. Like stealth gameplay? Big red outlines to highlight enemies ruins that. Like hero shooters? Lack of team-based objective. Like the horde aspect of PvE? No fodder enemies.

They don't even need to stick to one, they could build modes for each of those styles (one for DM, one for Spy, one for Defence (with a horde), one for Hijack). But the way they're thrown together like that means the vast majority of people who like a particular style of gameplay (even a particular PvE game mode) are going to find something very wrong with Conclave.

TL;DR: Conclave is messed up and, beside the fixes other people mentioned, it needs to figure out what it wants to be and do that particular thing right.

Very good points. One thing I like in my PvP shooters is basically the ability to choose my difficulty. Am I a complete noob? Stick with team, or camp with sentry in intel room. Do I want to do the impossible? Be the guy trying to solo the five engineers in the intel room and get away with the intel. See two enemies and is too hard? Run away. Or if I want to try my skill, jump right in and try to outfight them. That sort of thing. One thing I've always felt from playing conclave is that I don't really get to choose my difficulty, and that it's inconsistent, and there's no particular sense that anything short of winning the fight really matters, though what exactly it is that makes up this sort of feeling I don't know. Skill based matchmaking will help, a lot, but many games just work even without it while conclave clearly doesn't.

Modes for each style? While in general, keeping with a few modes until PvP has a solid playerbase is what I think is necessary, this gives an immense amount of creative idea potential. Let's see...

Survival -> Juggernaut mode (~20 players, 19 play as Corpus/Grineer/Infested random units, 1 guy plays as warframe. As time goes on, Corpus/Grineer/Infested levels rise; faction players get instant respawn, when juggernaut warframe player dies, the killer becomes the next warframe player, and levels reset back to level 10.) PvE balance can be used here; might even be its selling point.

Hijack -> Payload mode. Pretty much as is. Warframe vs Warframe probably works for this, though specifics of map design and balance will probably need to be tweaked.

Assassination: Juggernaut mode, but 4 players play as the warframe, one player plays as a boss. Again, PvE balance probably acceptable; bosses need to be nice to use somehow.

Interception: Control Points. Rather standard game mode for PvP, the problem is that there's next to nothing in PvP that can really be described as 'map control'. There doesn't seem to be that feeling, not to a high degree.

Spy: Standardized parkour track speedruns/time trials.

Exterminate: Standard current deathmatch modes, though that lacks the pushing and killing hordes aspect. 

Just some thoughts for now.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, DarkwarriorJ said:

Modes for each style? While in general, keeping with a few modes until PvP has a solid playerbase is what I think is necessary

To be brief: Conclave needs to start with 1 mode—FFA Arena DM done right—just as if it was building a playerbase from scratch. I suggest only those four modes because those are the four major gameplay components as far as I see it (weapon arrays (DM), stealth and movement (Spy), hero abilities (Escort), and horde shooting (Defence)) and four is a nice, small number with little overlap. Too many modes spreads the playerbase too thin.

(And by "done right" I mean something like, taking one weapon from each class at random, scattering those about the map where the ammo pickups are (with random cycling from that pool), and doing something similar with Warframe abilities and energy orbs. Putting the equipment out there, in some fashion, like a proper Arena shooter.)

[DarkwarriorJ]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

To be brief: Conclave needs to start with 1 mode—FFA Arena DM done right—just as if it was building a playerbase from scratch. I suggest only those four modes because those are the four major gameplay components as far as I see it (weapon arrays (DM), stealth and movement (Spy), hero abilities (Escort), and horde shooting (Defence)) and four is a nice, small number with little overlap. Too many modes spreads the playerbase too thin.

(And by "done right" I mean something like, taking one weapon from each class at random, scattering those about the map where the ammo pickups are (with random cycling from that pool), and doing something similar with Warframe abilities and energy orbs. Putting the equipment out there, in some fashion, like a proper Arena shooter.)

Warframe I don't think can become a proper arena shooter, at least on the having all the weapons department, since Warframes are locked to the standard primary/secondary/melee loadout. That sorely puts a dampener on the arena weapons gathering minigame. However, I recently played the Splitgate: Arena Warfare alpha, and their setup seemed fine and a possible candidate for emulation. Everyone starts with the same basic starter weapons, map control is desired from trying to attain more powerful weapons, hit f to swap current weapon with the available weapon, as opposed to Quake where health and armor provide the impetus for map control.

I mean, there's a lot more possibilities for Warframe as an arena shooter (powerups may include the good old quad damage/protection, but can also include archwing mode or maybe even operator mode), energy orbs can be another source of map control if abilities were accepted as relevant and balanced in a way agreed to be fun, and overall there is potential but it's the sort of thing where we're going to have to try it before we know if it's any good or not.

For those people crying out for a more grounded experience in conclave, question: what if bullet junping off a wall jump was removed? Afaik, no one uses it in PvE, and it is the number one source of flying all over the place in PvP. I don't really support the idea, but it is perhaps one possibility that doesn't involve stamina or whatnot.

Edited September 27, 2018 by DarkwarriorJ

[Okami_Amaterasu]

Conclave is absolutely not fine as it is. The balancing is terrible, weapons like the Karak, Kraken and Viper melt people, Zaws exist, which certain combinations will completely outclass other melee weapons within their classes, like heavy blades.

Plus it's peer to peer which means I hope you like getting shot around corners all the time. PvP just doesn't work that well for such a fast game like Warframe, either that or it's parkour 2.0 that doesn't work with it.

[(XBOX)Tylers Legend]

Conclave is very good, Conclave does not have god mode so PvErs will not PvP, that's the feeling they chase, not defeat. They are farmers, why poison your crops.

In the beginning of the game its a PvE highlighted, Conclave right now is a basement dweller. You can't force them to play, but you can bring Conclave out the basement. Anyone mad about Conclave visibility crying removal... lets just say the issue is not the game if there is no affect on their physical play.

Warframe is another beast with unity, I believe they can join many playstyles, PvP only players would play PvE if the gift was there and then overall community growth. Warframe shouldn't be like every other shooter it needs to be understandable, movement can hurt new players, but not long time players.

I like your idea, but too many individual actions, we need obvious.

Edited October 8, 2018 by (XB1)Tylers Legend

[Xarteros]

On 2018-08-21 at 9:51 AM, Hypermega said:

As the title says PVP is Fine how it is
-snip-

Conclave is like an Italian restaurant. Not everyone eats Italian, but plenty of people either like it from other restaurants, or are more than willing to try it.

Unfortunately, Conclave is a restaurant that has notoriously unpalatable menu items, and very few customers dine there. Those few customers often declare how amazing and quality the cuisine is, and tend to seem defensive on a confrontational level to customers who dislike the restaurant's recipes.

Now, it's clear to the outsider's perspective that the restaurant doesn't get much business at all. Despite the fact that there are some die-hard frequent customers who rave about the food, it's obvious that there just needs to be a change in order for the restaurant to start turning a proper profit.

Now, if people haven't really tried Italian food, or they like Italian food from other restaurants, you want this restaurant to capture their attention and bring them in as frequent customers. That means we need to change the recipes, sorry. Those frequent customers will need to learn to enjoy a change in taste, otherwise the restaurant will end up either closing down, or stagnating over time. You can't just listen to those few customers, you need to look at how the business is doing as a whole.