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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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This frame needs a tweaking.

It feels very convoluted and so far my teams don't have time for that when it's not more effective than other frames.

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Yeah he needs a seroius rework. But when this rework should have been released in the mask of revenant hotfixes and look at this. We havent got nothing and we are playing all fortuna and we all have forgot about the poor revenant(I know is trash but i want to play with him I love the idea of a sentient warframe) Seriosly DE a fast rework will not be bad think or some augments will be enough. I suggest 1 augment. When an thrall dies with this augment the pilar will explode on touch of a enemy dealing damamge to them. The damage taken and the radius of impact should be affect by power stenght and range.

For mesmer skin i suggest the same think like many people just entrhall automatically the enemies who are stunned. If you add this the max number of zealous thrall should be increased. Or just make it affect it by power strenght. 

And for reave just make it to deal damage when it takes shield and health. 

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So uh

I know this thread is old. Might be necro-ing it at this point. But I had a conversation about this very issue with a friend not long ago and... Well... I kinda came up with a rework idea, focusing on the "undead sentient" sort of aesthetic. No real numbers worth noting, that's not my strongsuit, but for what is ostensibly a hybrid DPS/control/tank I had to figure out where to "break even" so to speak.

Any ideas and critiques are welcome and appreciated.

 

Passive: Nightglimmer: Enemies hit by Prismatic Lance have a chance to be mind-controlled

1: Prismatic Lance: Revenant raises a finger and fires out a laser. Effectively this is 1 laser from Danse Macabre, with the same damage type shift, but as a quick boop power.

2:  Mesmer Tree: Revenant stops movement, his body undulating and twisting, before sending forth an Orokin branch at a designated point, a la Hydroid's 1/ult. That point spawns a massive, glimmering crystal tree, with enemies within  its area of affect being mind-controlled. The mind controlled entities effectively function as Revenant's current mind control mechanic. Enemies thus mind controlled that are killed by Prismatic Lance spawn energy columns as per Danse Macabre.

3: Cloak of Dreams: Effectively Mesmer Skin, but with an AoE slow that affects entities within range until charges are expended.

4. The Reaving: The eidolon energy within Revenant shifts and writhes, and forces his consciousness out. Revenant bends over backwards and launches his life force outward, creating a gestalt of Eidolon and Void energies. This entity uses Danse Macabre's spread laser as a primary fire, with aiming narrowing the beams down, and melee attacks are replaced with claws that scale with melee mods. In addition, the gestalt uses Archwing movement logic, but with the inertia and physics of Warframe movement. In this state, Revenant's body takes 75% reduced damage, and regains 75% of the damage dealt by The Reaving as health.
 

 

All of this was made in the course of around 5 minutes in a Discord call, so I'm not expecting it to be "perfect" so to speak.

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13 minutes ago, Abacrius said:

So uh

I know this thread is old. Might be necro-ing it at this point. But I had a conversation about this very issue with a friend not long ago and... Well... I kinda came up with a rework idea, focusing on the "undead sentient" sort of aesthetic. No real numbers worth noting, that's not my strongsuit, but for what is ostensibly a hybrid DPS/control/tank I had to figure out where to "break even" so to speak.

Any ideas and critiques are welcome and appreciated.

 

Passive: Nightglimmer: Enemies hit by Prismatic Lance have a chance to be mind-controlled

1: Prismatic Lance: Revenant raises a finger and fires out a laser. Effectively this is 1 laser from Danse Macabre, with the same damage type shift, but as a quick boop power.

2:  Mesmer Tree: Revenant stops movement, his body undulating and twisting, before sending forth an Orokin branch at a designated point, a la Hydroid's 1/ult. That point spawns a massive, glimmering crystal tree, with enemies within  its area of affect being mind-controlled. The mind controlled entities effectively function as Revenant's current mind control mechanic. Enemies thus mind controlled that are killed by Prismatic Lance spawn energy columns as per Danse Macabre.

3: Cloak of Dreams: Effectively Mesmer Skin, but with an AoE slow that affects entities within range until charges are expended.

4. The Reaving: The eidolon energy within Revenant shifts and writhes, and forces his consciousness out. Revenant bends over backwards and launches his life force outward, creating a gestalt of Eidolon and Void energies. This entity uses Danse Macabre's spread laser as a primary fire, with aiming narrowing the beams down, and melee attacks are replaced with claws that scale with melee mods. In addition, the gestalt uses Archwing movement logic, but with the inertia and physics of Warframe movement. In this state, Revenant's body takes 75% reduced damage, and regains 75% of the damage dealt by The Reaving as health.
 

 

All of this was made in the course of around 5 minutes in a Discord call, so I'm not expecting it to be "perfect" so to speak.

Still nice ideas and the suggested imagery is both fitting and inspired

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Goid ideas man but i am afraid that DE has complete forgoten about revenant. And I am very sad about it because i wanted to be a main Revenant but because of his S#&$i abilities i can't.

It cannot go to a endgame with this kit. 

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I really hope we get more Revenant changes as the Fortuna and Garuda fervor die down. He feels so incomplete.

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Core issues with Revenant are as follows:

~Core gameplay is about making thralls.  But there is no incentive to do so.

~Mesmer skin is his only good ability because it means you never take damage.  But this makes both his passive and reave basically redundant.

~Reave costs too much for what little it does.

~His ult is a decent damage ability.  But offers no worthwhile synergies with the rest of his kit.

Proposed changes to fix said issues:

~Thrall count increased to 10 enemies.

~Thralls are untargetable by allies until Revenant has interacted with them in some way or 20 seconds has passed.  (time is non moddable for this)

~Rad procs are ignored on thralls.

~Energy pillar damage and projectile damage changed to radiation.  Base range increased to 5 meters.

~Mesmer skin now provides Revenant with a movement speed/bullet jump speed increase.  Mesmer skin no longer nullifies damage.  Merely reduces the damage up to 80%.  Mesmer skin can shirk lethal damage once every 90 seconds.  Mesmer skin is now a duration based ability.  Mesmer skin while active ignores status procs.  Mesmer skin's synergy of creating thralls for free has been moved.

~Reave now takes increased health/shields from enemies.  This is no longer effected by reaving over thralls.  If you reave over a thrall you refresh their duration and get refunded energy to help with reave's energy cost.  If you have mesmer skin active and reave an enemy you convert the enemy(s) into thralls if you have less than 10 thralls on the field.  Passing over allies with mesmer skin and reave active allows them to ignore the next status proc they would take.

~Danse macabre when it kills enthralled enemies pulses a sentient wave of energy that begins health regeneration and shield regeneration for allies in the AoE.

~Enthrall.  Revenant can hold to cast to create an AoE where he can create multiple thralls at once.

~Passive remains the same.

 

Summary:

Revenant was meant to be a vampire/sentient frame.  This is still his kit.  But the vampire part of thralls which happens to be the main aspect of his kit is unrewarding and pointless to do.  I made several suggestions to make thralls overall feel better.  In my changes Revenant is now capable of making several thralls at once both with his one and a synergy between his 2 and 3.  This allows him to keep up with the pacing of warframe and the fact that his allies can kill his thralls less painful since you can just build them back up easier.  I also made his thralls immune to allies for 20 seconds and immune to radiation procs for two simple reasons.  Both things prevented Revenant from getting any interaction with his thralls on a consistent basis.  If revenant decides to interact with them in anyway via his abilities or guns though allies are free to kill them.  These changes ensure revenant can always benefit from making his thralls whilst also reducing the likely hood of Revenant trolling defense missions with his army.

I adjusted mesmer skin because it was far too powerful.  So powerful that it made Reave's main point (which is sustaining revenant's health) obsolete.  Not to mention basically ensured his passive was never going to proc.  But the changes I made to his skin I feel like fit the theme of being a sentient.  The damage resistance and status proc effects fall inline with sentient's ability to resist and adapt.  I decided to allow him to shirk fatal damage to keep the ability feeling powerful.  But having that on an internal cooldown so he can actually be killed.  Reave was a bad ability for several reasons.  It costed too much for how little it did.  And making his health steal ability basically worthless without the synergy makes it forced and not fun.  Hence the buff to the leech ability and removal of this synergy.  But I still included a synergy that makes more sense to me thematically on top of actually being a thing you'll want to go out of your way to do in a gameplay scenario.  Especially considering how energy hungry he will be with all the casting he'll be doing.

His ultimate (as much as I dislike it) works well enough as is.  I simply opted to fix the synergy with thralls because the overshield amount is pitiful and rarely meaningful.  Same sort of idea but you know, actually worth something.  Energy pillar change was to make those actually worth something as well.  I'd rather have a 100% chance to confuse enemies than a 100% chance to stumble an enemy.  And hopefully with the base range increase these pillars will actually see more interaction.  His passive didn't need changing as it's effect is perfectly fine for a passive.  It just needed to be usable.  Which is now a reality since mesmer skin is no longer a god ability.

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My ideas for changes are:

SKill 1: Stays as it is except the flying balls from the pillars also enthrall enemies they hit for the remaining duration of the dead thrall.

SKill 2: While Skill 2 is active the thralls are immune to all CC be it from players or enemies. The thralls also get ammunition based ont the

power strenght of the revenant. The floating Vomalyst can shoot every X seconds a hitscan shot which also enthralls.

This is because the AI sucks and often doesn't enthralls new enemies.

Another idea for skill 2 would be that they get 1 Mesmer Skin charge and when they get hit an explosion occurs which pulls enemies in a 4m radius

and slows them down for -15% movement speed.

SKill 3: Thralls you touch get a 30% attack speed and movement bonus

SKill 4: Thralls you hit get an EIDOLON BUFF.

EIDOLON BUFF: All the damage the trahll receives turns into a dot which deals 5% of the dmg every second to him (so that they can't die instantly.)

So if he gets hit for 1000 dmg,  he loses 50 dmg every second. More dmg can be stacked so that he dies quicker if you want him to die.

The buff also turns them into 1 of 3 EIDOLON EXIMUS units which are ARSON EIDOLON, ARCTIC EIDOLON and GUARDIAN EIDOLON

ARSON EIDOLON creates an eidolon explosion wave like the real eidolon which knocks enemies down.

ARCTIC EIDOLON has a bubble.

GUARDIAN EIDOLON gives buffs to players nearby.

 

*This is of course just a basic idea and not a finished concept.

*The numbers are not important, they just are there to make it easier to understand.

 

 

 

 

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Thralls inheriting only the remaining duration of the thrall that turned them instead of the full duration is still an underlying issue that clashes with the spreading nature of the ability and is unneeded since thralls have a cap anyways.

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Finally got to play with Revenant and i'm disappointed. A frame i will likely never use after it hits 30.

Thralls are a weak, worthless version of shadows or mind control.

In any pug they get instantly wiped by countless of AOE-s and even people killing them just because they see a "enemy shaped object".
The pillar might aswell not exist.
The spread is slow because of how  crappy ai is - often they just start walking or trying to hide etc instead of attacking.
And their damage is nonexistent for the most part. No taunt - so what are they for?
And all of the above adds to the huge energy cost since you really need to spam it.

The shield charges vanish so fast you really rarely see it being useful. You can't often even notice the stunned target to slowly cast on them in most game modes.

And the crappy version of charge to steal some hp with a extremely long wind up time?

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Oh boy, i guess it's time for some thread necromancy !

So, revenant's been out for what, almost four months now ? With the last batch of changes being almost two months old ? I guess that means DE considers him ''complete'', and not worth taking another look at. Thing is, he needs one. badly. Most of the problems feedback brought up and many reported issues revenant had persist to this very day, and i'm not sure they'll ever be changed in a meaningful and effective way. Back on august 24th, revenant had a slew of issues, summarized as such :

  • Mesmer skin could be a powerful tanking ability, if it's performance was adapted to better suit the ''horde shooter'' gameplay of warframe. it was, however, really effective as far as mimicking the eidolon's invulnerability phases goes.
  • Danse macabre was fine, if somewhat braindead. it was surprisingly good in terms of damage output, in no small part thanks to it's ''adaptive damage type'' mechanic. But we all knew it was gonna get nerfed, we just didn't know how hard.
  • The passive was a botched, last minute, poor attempt at replicating the eidolon's ''energy spike''. Not only was it unimaginative to the extreme, but it was blatantly obvious that whoever came up with it didn't consider whether it'd be at all relevant on revenant.
  • And then... then there was reave and enthrall. Pretty much everyone agreed that those were an acute case of ''don't even bother'', not helped by the fact that enthrall managed to step on an already aging warframe's boots. Every person that previewed him pretty much called it : his 1 was going to be awful, and his 3 was gonna end up feeling boring and out of place. They couldn't have been more right. both of these abilities suffered from the same problems, with enthrall being particularily horrendous, as it had :
    • Pathetic damage, with 1000 at base stats, all of it being puncture for some ungodly reason.
    • Miserable range, at 2 meters. This is even more hilariously awful when considering that this ability was made during the time DE was busing creating the gargantuan vallis.
    • No utility whatsoever, be it a temporary buff, a heal, what have you. The more perplexing part is that it once did : During it's first showcase (back in devstream 112), enthrall would have thralls explode while giving revenant some energy back. This property, one that would've easily justified the otherwise mediocre performance of the ability, was removed.
    • Asinine restrictions of all kinds (4 thralls max, full friendly fire, shared duration, no scaling, slow casting speed)
    • Weird synergies, some of them involving shields (for whatever reason), and every one of them was either completely irrelevant (1+4), needlessly restrained (2+1) or painfully forced (1+3)
    • An absolutely depressing duration of 10 seconds for the pillars

But then came the pyrus project, nezha empyrean and chimera, each bringing some changes to the warframe. following those, we were left with the warframe we have today, his abilities having gone from what was mentioned above to :

  • Mesmer skin : it's fine now, if a tad boring. it still suffers from some of the problems people pointed out, mainly the lack of gating, but the recastability (kinda) makes up for it. the ability would be a million times better if the whole ''stun a minion so you MIGHT get a cast of your cheapest ability for free'' was removed, and replaced with enthralling upon negating damage.
  • Danse macabre : was nuked into orbit. the ability is a shadow of it's former self, having seen it's cost increased by an astounding 60%. On top of that, it lost it's ability to hurt nullifier bubbles, because i guess it was just THAT overpowered.
  • The passive ; still exists, still boring, still makes no sense. Just replace it with adaptation ! It's right there, makes sense, and would prevent him being vaporised the moment 2 goes down (which it will eventually).
  • Reave : still severly lacking for anything beyond damage dealing. it could have percentile energy return (like virulence), mass enthralling (as it did during devstream 112, removed again for no real reason), or it could just be faster or deal more damage to regular enemies. It'd be a real shame to see this ability stay as nothing more than a slow, situational one-shot that's only ever useful when enemy armor scaling goes insane.
  • As for enthrall, well... It's current state is what compelled me to write this whole thing to begin with, since DE seems stubbornly determined to keep it as is. As of today, it still has :
    • Pathetic damage, being made purely of puncture and impact (why ? just give it the adaptive property, slap some status chance and you're good !)
    • Terrible range for the pillars (unchanged from above) and acceptable range for the projectiles, at 10 meters.
    • No utility to speak of. Hopefully someone sees the light and brings back the energy on kill, but until then, i guess it'll stay barren on that front.
    • A number of questionable restrictions, with all of those cited above being still present (save for the increased thrall cap of seven). 
    • The ''synergies'' are mostly unchanged, save for a few hilariously awful additions : 2+3, giving your allies a grand total of ONE charge of mesmer skin when you reave through them, and a new 1+4. And i can't stress enough how awful this one is : when danse macabre's lasers pass through enthrall ''pillars'', they explode. this is wrong and counterintuitive on so many levels, and only manages to make the 4 even less attractive (wich, come to think of it, might've actually been the initial goal).
    • As for the duration, it's still confusingly restrictive (but again, everything about his 1 is).

Hopefully we'll see some changes in 2022, when his prime access drops !

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Just picked him up a few days ago, his kit seems too split, and his 4 too repetitive. 

I think his 4, while the strongest ability in his kit, is not a good theme in this game. Ember was changed because of their stand still and channel type of game-play so why make revenant do that? I think it would be much cooler to make him less of a channel-frame, as you miss out on so much with him being like this.

His 1.) This ability could make or break his kit- either base the rest of the frame around thralls/energy pillars or find an alternative to this ability. I recommend changing it away from thralls and making the energy pillars have a contagion to them instead, or simply making it a cast ability to involve summoning the pillars. 

His 2.) Make Mesmer skin an adaptive defense and or adaptive offense ability to keep the sentient theme and allow him to be viable in more types of missions. It's current ability I don't dislike but it doesn't feel very fun to use  (especially with its lack of an animation) and feels not very impactful in high-density missions. It doens't feel very eidolon/sentient-like either.

His 3.) I don't dislike reave, if it didn't have its absurd cast time outside of his 4 it would be a fun re-positioning and sustain tool. 

His 4.) While a strong ability, it's not fun to use as its repetitive game-play that removes the whole fast-paced game-play warframe has. I don't dislike the idea of a channeled ability, but one that doesn't restrict so much would be nice (like embers eruptions. If revenant had that with adaptive status it would be much more playable in higher-levels.) What I think would be cool, is if he had a semi-chroma like mechanic with his 4 involving the Teralyst, Gantulyst and Hydrolyst since you build him in the plains and is a eidolon-based frame it wouldn't be off his theme. His 4, based on energy color, does a different effect/ability. Default/white does the Teralyst's ground slam with the homing quakes and eruptions that do magnetic damage, knocking things down or/and grants regeneration or dr buffs to the team or himself to be like the regenerating scream interacting with the Vomalysts, Blue/green/black does the Hydrolyst's acid rain and lightning or/and would drop overshield charge like the Vomalyst bloom. Finally the Gantulyst red/brown/yellow and has the erupting pillars of light doing slashing/puncture/impact damage as a channel or summons the spinning lights/pillars as an activated ability: he could also either have the bubble and energy pulses or/and giving the team a damage buff while active/after use.

I am not super active on the forum, this is my first post here, I have been playing warframe on and off for a good couple of years and have a good amount of passion for this frame. I think this frame has amazing potential, and while I know my suggestions basically force a rework, it would make the frame much more interactive while also being adaptive to the mission type it is in. A lot of frames need touch-ups or reworks, but this by far would be my favorite one if it took more inspiration from the Teralyst/Hydrolyst/Gantulyst as they feel like some of the most inspired enemies in the game.

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1 hour ago, Oobachoo said:

Just picked him up a few days ago, his kit seems too split, and his 4 too repetitive. 

I think his 4, while the strongest ability in his kit, is not a good theme in this game. Ember was changed because of their stand still and channel type of game-play so why make revenant do that? I think it would be much cooler to make him less of a channel-frame, as you miss out on so much with him being like this.

His 1.) This ability could make or break his kit- either base the rest of the frame around thralls/energy pillars or find an alternative to this ability. I recommend changing it away from thralls and making the energy pillars have a contagion to them instead, or simply making it a cast ability to involve summoning the pillars. 

His 2.) Make Mesmer skin an adaptive defense and or adaptive offense ability to keep the sentient theme and allow him to be viable in more types of missions. It's current ability I don't dislike but it doesn't feel very fun to use  (especially with its lack of an animation) and feels not very impactful in high-density missions. It doens't feel very eidolon/sentient-like either.

His 3.) I don't dislike reave, if it didn't have its absurd cast time outside of his 4 it would be a fun re-positioning and sustain tool. 

His 4.) While a strong ability, it's not fun to use as its repetitive game-play that removes the whole fast-paced game-play warframe has. I don't dislike the idea of a channeled ability, but one that doesn't restrict so much would be nice (like embers eruptions. If revenant had that with adaptive status it would be much more playable in higher-levels.) What I think would be cool, is if he had a semi-chroma like mechanic with his 4 involving the Teralyst, Gantulyst and Hydrolyst since you build him in the plains and is a eidolon-based frame it wouldn't be off his theme. His 4, based on energy color, does a different effect/ability. Default/white does the Teralyst's ground slam with the homing quakes and eruptions that do magnetic damage, knocking things down or/and grants regeneration or dr buffs to the team or himself to be like the regenerating scream interacting with the Vomalysts, Blue/green/black does the Hydrolyst's acid rain and lightning or/and would drop overshield charge like the Vomalyst bloom. Finally the Gantulyst red/brown/yellow and has the erupting pillars of light doing slashing/puncture/impact damage as a channel or summons the spinning lights/pillars as an activated ability: he could also either have the bubble and energy pulses or/and giving the team a damage buff while active/after use.

I am not super active on the forum, this is my first post here, I have been playing warframe on and off for a good couple of years and have a good amount of passion for this frame. I think this frame has amazing potential, and while I know my suggestions basically force a rework, it would make the frame much more interactive while also being adaptive to the mission type it is in. A lot of frames need touch-ups or reworks, but this by far would be my favorite one if it took more inspiration from the Teralyst/Hydrolyst/Gantulyst as they feel like some of the most inspired enemies in the game.

Would you consider an exalted energy cannon that spawns onto his arm to imitate the Eidolons would be better for a replacement to Revenant's Danse Macabre?

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8 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Would you consider an exalted energy cannon that spawns onto his arm to imitate the Eidolons would be better for a replacement to Revenant's Danse Macabre?

I wouldn't be against it, but an exalted weapon would probably need a different 1,2 and 3 to complement it in his kit. Sort-of how Excalibur and Ivara are. Problem is Ivara uses a bow and Excalibur uses a melee weapon so it isn't necessary to have the exalted weapon out to use the other parts of your kit, just less effective (sometimes) so what would the exalted weapon replace for Revenant? I think it might just be easier to buff his 2/3 and change his 1 and 4 using the assets they already have from the Teralysts and his 1's energy pillar. 

Chances of them actually taking in any feedback that requires a rework is unlikely. I just think this frame has to much potential considering it's modeled after the sentients/eidolons. Not sure why they didn't do adaptive defense with Mesmer skin, and I'm not sure what the contagious mind control is based off of, that ability seems flawed as an idea and out of place in his kit, especially since his 4 ruins its purpose.

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7 hours ago, Oobachoo said:

I wouldn't be against it, but an exalted weapon would probably need a different 1,2 and 3 to complement it in his kit. Sort-of how Excalibur and Ivara are. Problem is Ivara uses a bow and Excalibur uses a melee weapon so it isn't necessary to have the exalted weapon out to use the other parts of your kit, just less effective (sometimes) so what would the exalted weapon replace for Revenant? I think it might just be easier to buff his 2/3 and change his 1 and 4 using the assets they already have from the Teralysts and his 1's energy pillar. 

Chances of them actually taking in any feedback that requires a rework is unlikely. I just think this frame has to much potential considering it's modeled after the sentients/eidolons. Not sure why they didn't do adaptive defense with Mesmer skin, and I'm not sure what the contagious mind control is based off of, that ability seems flawed as an idea and out of place in his kit, especially since his 4 ruins its purpose.

Yeah, its a shame none of his current abilities reflect Eidolons when his theme is so visually Eidolon in nature.

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