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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)Grim_Dude:

I can't think of many ways to reset the A.I. that doesn't involve killing them, best I got is have Enthrall spawn an eidolon spirit of the casted target or spawn a Vombolyst while the casted target becomes immobile like in a sleep-state and if killed anytime during the duration, it would become a power geyser while the separate spirit either explodes or keeps fighting.

The soft version to that is soft Cc, that's at least how Nyx Chaos and Lokis RD manage it... Enthrall is missing even that. Though i don't see an issue to make the transition reset theyr AI to a spawned state by script.

Not a bad idea to have them replaced though, i just kinda doubt DE would actually implement it with theyr specc policy they've had ever since SotD was changed. The spawn rate has been reduced since relics have been arond and even nekros shadows occupy maximum spawns... have existing enemies spawn clones that occupy spots and you may be able to prevent enemies spawning alltogether in lower levels.

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2 hours ago, Urlan said:

Isn't the damage he takes immediately spent on the next hit of the laser dance and not built up during the duration of the move? Perhaps if Revenant was durable like an Eidolon, and the damage built up and augmented the raw damage of all the lasers for the full duration, it could be a better move.

No it releases it constantly on each hit with some percentage.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

I was able to make great use of the scaling damage against level 300 enemies while surviving and killing just fine. Also I'm pretty sure the whole point of scaling damage is that it's supposed to be mainly effective at higher levels. The real issue is the mesmer skin bug that gets revenant 1-shotted through mesmer skin. But thankfully there's a temporary solution for this bug until DE fixes it.

The bug for mesmer skin where it takes revenants EHP into account, also takes bleedout into account. To put it simply, when you bleedout you're technically not dead. You're just on the verge of death. So basically as long as you are in a squad and you're not last one alive, mesmer skin should protect you from being one shotted because it has bleedout to fall back on. Without living squad mates, mesmer skin has no infinite EHP pool to fall back on.

So for the time being it's best to play revenant with teammates or to have a sentinel with the sacrifice mod until the mesmer skin bug is fixed. I hope this was of help to you all.

Hope DE fixes it before Elite Alerts or that will be a no go zone for him. Since there will be no revives or bleedout states. 

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7 hours ago, MrMrs said:

Unless, you're gonna nuke with augur message, constitution, narrow minded, and continuity you're not gonna get a value greater than just streamline + fleeting.

Actually, you'd get the exact same Energy Drain with Streamline and Fleeting as if you put on just Streamline. Because unless you counter the negative duration, the equation actually does balance out at net-neutral for using Fleeting. The only difference is the initial activation cost, which is why in a later comment I adjusted it to something like this; 'Always take out Fleeting if you're planning on activating the ability for a duration and then deactivating it, it's a net neutral unless you're strobing the ability on and off like a rave'.

Basically, you can save yourself a mod slot by, instead of countering the negative Duration of Fleeting with an extra Duration mod, you just replace it entirely with that same Duration mod.

I was there, and so were thousands of others, back when Valkyr was the first frame to receive the Drain mechanic nerf to her kit, the first frame to deliberately have their Duration ability turned into a Drain to mechanically limit our ability to keep it going without active play. We questioned the mechanics, we got the answers, it's where the equations on the Wiki came from.

Unless you plan to activate and deactivate Danse Macabre every few seconds, then taking Fleeting out of your build and replacing it with a duration mod, especially a longer Duration mod like Primed Continuity, will work out as more energy efficient. Narrow Minded is also good for this because it doesn't affect the range of the lasers, and can help limit the distance you travel with Reave so that you're not stuck in animations for too long.

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So I just recently obtained Vlad and I do not quite understand this frame role. Solo he seems squishy, and in group though he provides great damage for now we know dps frames typically drop off.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

So I just recently obtained Vlad and I do not quite understand this frame role. Solo he seems squishy, and in group though he provides great damage for now we know dps frames typically drop off.

generally all frames drop off. just a matter of when

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8 hours ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

I was able to make great use of the scaling damage against level 300 enemies while surviving and killing just fine. Also I'm pretty sure the whole point of scaling damage is that it's supposed to be mainly effective at higher levels. The real issue is the mesmer skin bug that gets revenant 1-shotted through mesmer skin. But thankfully there's a temporary solution for this bug until DE fixes it.

The bug for mesmer skin where it takes revenants EHP into account, also takes bleedout into account. To put it simply, when you bleedout you're technically not dead. You're just on the verge of death. So basically as long as you are in a squad and you're not last one alive, mesmer skin should protect you from being one shotted because it has bleedout to fall back on. Without living squad mates, mesmer skin has no infinite EHP pool to fall back on.

So for the time being it's best to play revenant with teammates or to have a sentinel with the sacrifice mod until the mesmer skin bug is fixed. I hope this was of help to you all.

Claiming that Rev can survive getting barraged by level 300s enough to kill them quickly....yeah no I genuinely don’t believe you.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Claiming that Rev can survive getting barraged by level 300s enough to kill them quickly....yeah no I genuinely don’t believe you.

I mean I do have clip proof you don't believe me.

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14 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Actually, you'd get the exact same Energy Drain with Streamline and Fleeting as if you put on just Streamline. Because unless you counter the negative duration, the equation actually does balance out at net-neutral for using Fleeting. The only difference is the initial activation cost, which is why in a later comment I adjusted it to something like this; 'Always take out Fleeting if you're planning on activating the ability for a duration and then deactivating it, it's a net neutral unless you're strobing the ability on and off like a rave'.

Basically, you can save yourself a mod slot by, instead of countering the negative Duration of Fleeting with an extra Duration mod, you just replace it entirely with that same Duration mod.

I was there, and so were thousands of others, back when Valkyr was the first frame to receive the Drain mechanic nerf to her kit, the first frame to deliberately have their Duration ability turned into a Drain to mechanically limit our ability to keep it going without active play. We questioned the mechanics, we got the answers, it's where the equations on the Wiki came from.

Unless you plan to activate and deactivate Danse Macabre every few seconds, then taking Fleeting out of your build and replacing it with a duration mod, especially a longer Duration mod like Primed Continuity, will work out as more energy efficient. Narrow Minded is also good for this because it doesn't affect the range of the lasers, and can help limit the distance you travel with Reave so that you're not stuck in animations for too long.

I checked it with the equation. It isn't the exact same but I will give it to you because fleeting+streamline only saves 1.5 energy vs only streamline. (14 energy per second with just streamline, 12.5 energy per second with streamline+fleeting). Although, range DOES affect the lasers (affects width) but I still think it's worth it. Also, the distance of reave is actually impacted by duration not range and you can cancel reave by pressing the ability button for reave. Also, I continued to check some more and found that fleeting+streamline+narrow minded is better than streamline+primed continuity+narrow minded (streamline+narrow minded+fleeting give around 3.6 energy per second while streamline+primed continuity+narrow minded gives around 5.5 energy per second). But it's not the biggest difference so whatever floats your boat (efficency for all your abilities vs duration for all your abilities)

 

Edit: Also, you only need a 1 rank before maxed fleeting + streamline to hit a cap so the streamline+narrow minded+fleeting could be even lower.

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Every time I try to enthrall an enemy the other players in the session immediately kill it.  This makes this ability completely useless beyond getting maybe 1 aoe location for the fire thralls produce, or if I'm fast enough I can get 1 of the 50 overshield drops.  It's impossible to actually use the spreading effect.  It's impossible to actually use the thralls in combat.

I think Revenant's thralls need to be immune to allied damage.  Keep it so Revenant can still damage them since there's mechanics that work around this.  Allies don't factor in to that beyond constantly keeping any Revenant from actually building up a force of any kind.

Thoughts?

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18 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem that factors into that is it then makes Rev a troll frame for defense since he can keep enemies from being killed.

Maybe give Thralls damage resistance to ally weaponry?

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29 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Maybe give Thralls damage resistance to ally weaponry?

That would help, but knowing how team mates will continue to attack even Nekros Shadows means they’re still likely to keep wailing on them until they die.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Gangalito said:

Thoughts?

I think if everything is dying that quickly, you don't really need thralls. Sometimes your team just overpowers content without anyone needing to really try.

Try something harder, like staying longer in an endless mission. Endless fissures are a good challenge, especially in place like Mot, and offer extra rewards.

Maybe do more Interceptions, where each team member has their own area to cover. The relics per hour rate is higher than Survival as well.

Also, if I'm playing a melee build, I would like to thank those thralls for their contribution to my combo counter. 😉

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DE added some helpful things for thralls that die but admittedly that is really just band aid. Hopefully, DE will fix it soon. Along with a change causing thralls to not stall a defense.

 

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4 hours ago, Llamatronian said:

I think if everything is dying that quickly, you don't really need thralls. Sometimes your team just overpowers content without anyone needing to really try.

Try something harder, like staying longer in an endless mission. Endless fissures are a good challenge, especially in place like Mot, and offer extra rewards.

Maybe do more Interceptions, where each team member has their own area to cover. The relics per hour rate is higher than Survival as well.

Also, if I'm playing a melee build, I would like to thank those thralls for their contribution to my combo counter. 😉

I get that, but is it really that important that allies can damage thralls?  You're right that anyone could just do higher level content and maybe the thralls will actually be usable. 

The game has literally no incentives to fight enemies any higher than 100, which still die extremely fast, not just to me and my friends who are all MR25, but to anyone who's mid-level MR  or higher.  It's common that an MR10 or higher can quickly drop a level 100 sortie enemy  This game isn't build around difficulty.  It's built around killing large numbers quickly.

This all just comes together to hamstring one of Revenants core mechanics for no payoff.   The only real fix for this is to make the thralls immune to ally damage, but not to the Revenants.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Gangalito said:

This all just comes together to hamstring one of Revenants core mechanics for no payoff.   The only real fix for this is to make the thralls immune to ally damage, but not to the Revenants.

Revenants should be able to kill thralls only with the designated skills.

And i would suggest a mechanism where the thralls would surely die. That way the game could recognize them as dead as soon as they are turned thralls so they wont hinder any mission objective.

On the other hand i propose to revork tje whole ability into something really useful 😉

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Il y a 15 heures, (PS4)Gangalito a dit :

Every time I try to enthrall an enemy the other players in the session immediately kill it.  This makes this ability completely useless beyond getting maybe 1 aoe location for the fire thralls produce, or if I'm fast enough I can get 1 of the 50 overshield drops.  It's impossible to actually use the spreading effect.  It's impossible to actually use the thralls in combat.

I think Revenant's thralls need to be immune to allied damage.  Keep it so Revenant can still damage them since there's mechanics that work around this.  Allies don't factor in to that beyond constantly keeping any Revenant from actually building up a force of any kind.

Thoughts?

The only thing they need to do is to remove the timer on his one, and make it spread on death, much like saryn's spores, but with a cap of 7.
Or, keep the timer, but make the ability insta kill thralls at the end of it. (and put some restriction against bosses and other ennemies)

And they should add adaptative damage on his pillars much like his 4, in order to make them useful against high lvl ennemies, because impact damage against lvl 100 grineer isn't that good.

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On 2018-09-25 at 8:36 AM, maddragonmaster said:

generally all frames drop off. just a matter of when

Yes, that is very true.

Anyways after playing this frame a bit longer I figured 2 things I wish DE would add/change about the frame because it seems his abilities feel like they take a bit to ramp up.

Ability 1 - Enthrall

For a timed ability the enemy conversion is pretty slow - especially when you play with pubs that kill the enemies faster than they can get enthralled.

I think if this ability were to work send a wave outward like Harrows condemn ability, enthralling enemies it touches them then the ability timer would make more sense. 

Ability 2 - Mesmer skin

This is a cool ability (on paper) but it the charges just do not last long enough. I suggest have this ability switch to a toogle of sorts like nekros desecrate but have your thralls be the charges for this ability. Every thrall provides a charge and when a charge is consumed it also destroys a thrall.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

This is a cool ability (on paper) but it the charges just do not last long enough

I currently have no issues with that. How many charges do you have on your build and are being mobile? Are you using the thralls to draw fire away from you so you can a bit more breathing space?

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3 hours ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

I currently have no issues with that. How many charges do you have on your build and are being mobile? Are you using the thralls to draw fire away from you so you can a bit more breathing space?

Mostly a balance build as portrayed in tact potatoes video...

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On 2018-09-23 at 8:57 AM, Urlan said:

Eidolons are a specific result of a specific event, they are Sentient as in that is what their living parts are; but they are not Sentient as in the faction as a whole, since the mind of the original is destroyed. When we discuss something like moves themed off an Eidolon, it needs to be specific to this essentially "undead Sentient". Unlike Hunhnow who is the whole of the none Eidolon examples in your post, The Eidolons are still living parts of a dead Giant Sentient; Hunhow has a disabled main body but he is fully alive and uses his shards to attack in his stead. Everything that made the Giant Sentient a unique individual is dead, gone boomy from that Void bomb Gara and Unum snuck into its core. Not only that, Eidolons are unique to the Plains, and didn't occur otherwise so we have a very specific organism type broken off from the rest without the upper functioning reasoning of something like Hunhow or Natah. One can't compare what Hunhow's shards can do, as they are not related outside their super family being Sentient.

...

Urlan ...my error, Tenno

 

Why, oh why, is my Revenant able to have the Helminth Cyst infestation?!?

I get Revenant being the exception to the rule as Sentient cannot be infected, except for this one Warframe ...that is harnessed Sentient energy in a Warframe.

 

I am lost as to why Revenant is both eligible for the Cyst and also able to be Nullified.

I did not think Nullifiers had an effect on Sentient Energy: Lua Sentients seem to not be dispelled by Nullifier Bubbles from Corpus/Corrupted Fissures.

 

Danse Macbre pretty much is immune to dispel in practice due to Bubbles being able to be shrunk/destroyed.

But all is there Revenant abilities should persist: Thralls, Reave, & Mesmer Skin.

(Unsure if killed thralll Flames get dispelled by Nullifier...have not seen a Nullfiier walk over a flame with Bubble intact)*

Revenant's passive of Arcane Eruption but on Shield depletion seems like it could also include Sentient energy/abilities being immune to Nullifiers.

 

 

On to the topic of Thralls: 

I am pleased to see Thralls are fully registered as NPC's in that they count as allies. 

√ Not breaking Defense Wave/Interception by leaving allive Thralls (Next wave will proceed unlike Nyx Mind Control or Nidus Paracystic Link)

 

✓ Very glad to see I can make Thralls nigh-impossible with Vazarin Protective Dash (Not sure if this will be fixed in the future)* 

-Can be abused to Troll teammates by 'Thralling 'a boss and then Protective Dash through them to just be a jerk.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Urlan ...my error, Tenno

 

Why, oh why, is my Revenant able to have the Helminth Cyst infestation?!?

I get Revenant being the exception to the rule as Sentient cannot be infected, except for this one Warframe ...that is harnessed Sentient energy in a Warframe.

 

I am lost as to why Revenant is both eligible for the Cyst and also able to be Nullified.

I did not think Nullifiers had an effect on Sentient Energy: Lua Sentients seem to not be dispelled by Nullifier Bubbles from Corpus/Corrupted Fissures.

 

Danse Macbre pretty much is immune to dispel in practice due to Bubbles being able to be shrunk/destroyed.

But all is there Revenant abilities should persist: Thralls, Reave, & Mesmer Skin.

(Unsure if killed thralll Flames get dispelled by Nullifier...have not seen a Nullfiier walk over a flame with Bubble intact)*

Revenant's passive of Arcane Eruption but on Shield depletion seems like it could also include Sentient energy/abilities being immune to Nullifiers.

 

 

On to the topic of Thralls: 

I am pleased to see Thralls are fully registered as NPC's in that they count as allies. 

√ Not breaking Defense Wave/Interception by leaving allive Thralls (Next wave will proceed unlike Nyx Mind Control or Nidus Paracystic Link)

 

✓ Very glad to see I can make Thralls nigh-impossible with Vazarin Protective Dash (Not sure if this will be fixed in the future)* 

-Can be abused to Troll teammates by 'Thralling 'a boss and then Protective Dash through them to just be a jerk.

All good questions, lore-wise, so far; Revenant shouldn't even exist. We learn from Plague Star that just the energy given off by Eidolons, harvested from Plains materials is good enough to poison or augment poison to be more capable of killing massive technocyte organisms far bigger than warframes while we are repeatedly told that warframes utilize Void energy given off by Tenno or Void focuses like the Reservoir on Lua. As far as Nullifiers, their fields are seemingly not meant to block Void energy in setting, but inhibit Void energy usage by Technocyte organisms or at least our transference signal through such fields. If this were developed, it would be interesting to see Nullies be made to be more effective against infested enemies, disorienting them and negating some of their innate ability usage.

If we were to focus only on the cyst interacting with the warframe, one would have to assume that Helminth is linking directly to the Warframe technocyte to allow the infection growth since it was used to make proto warframes, but this doesn't explain why such cysts down shrivel and die on their own due to the obvious Sentient energy leaking from Revenant form, which is toxic to technocyte organisms like Helminth. Thralls for Revenant, I am wagering we will have to know what warframe the "Warden" warframe originally was, but perhaps they are intended to pull from its original abilities, to explain why it is something neither normal Sentient or the Eidolons in specific which are what inspired Revenant's design have showed any ability to do themselves.

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5 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Mostly a balance build as portrayed in tact potatoes video...

Do you have around 14 mesmer skin charges with your build or is it exactly the same as his power strength wise? If not then you don't have enough power strength to get enough charges to make use of. My build is a balanced build in about everything except range. Range is not that useful on revenant.

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