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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

All good questions, lore-wise, so far; Revenant shouldn't even exist. We learn from Plague Star that just the energy given off by Eidolons, harvested from Plains materials is good enough to poison or augment poison to be more capable of killing massive technocyte organisms far bigger than warframes while we are repeatedly told that warframes utilize Void energy given off by Tenno or Void focuses like the Reservoir on Lua. As far as Nullifiers, their fields are seemingly not meant to block Void energy in setting, but inhibit Void energy usage by Technocyte organisms or at least our transference signal through such fields. If this were developed, it would be interesting to see Nullies be made to be more effective against infested enemies, disorienting them and negating some of their innate ability usage.

If we were to focus only on the cyst interacting with the warframe, one would have to assume that Helminth is linking directly to the Warframe technocyte to allow the infection growth since it was used to make proto warframes, but this doesn't explain why such cysts down shrivel and die on their own due to the obvious Sentient energy leaking from Revenant form, which is toxic to technocyte organisms like Helminth. Thralls for Revenant, I am wagering we will have to know what warframe the "Warden" warframe originally was, but perhaps they are intended to pull from its original abilities, to explain why it is something neither normal Sentient or the Eidolons in specific which are what inspired Revenant's design have showed any ability to do themselves./

Thank you kindly for sharing.

 

I have an inkling that 'Warden frame' mentioned in quest will just end up being Revenant Prime; with more unanswered lore-questions....or it will be a frame specifically tied to the upcoming Special Eidolon.

 

Has me looking back at how it was teased Gersemi was the pre-Alad V Valkyr...then they went and did Valkyr Prime resembling post Zanuka Project...and followed it up with 2nd Dream Hunhow calling Alad V an Orokin & Alad V talking as if he witnessed the Moon's disappearance and Tenno's Betrayal...(rather than it simply being history or stories shared/passed down to him)

But Gersemi cannot be pre-Orokin era...unless similar to Mara Detron.

Also makes it weird with Mesa being experimented with Mutalist Technocyte...unless DE is playing it safe with the Collar-control being the 'augmentation'...this not having a significantly different Mesa Prime mesh.

 

Hoping there is some more explanation to Revenant Senitent/Eidolon crossed with Void/Technocyte ... Or at least be the official exception to rule

 

 

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I mentioned in another (I assume now merged) thread:

Thralls base cast range should either be expanded to be 30m 

Or 

Let flames of killed enthralled have a status chance that can spread thrall affliction.

 

The latter would allow for choke point thrall creation, which would be balanced by the current thrall cap and would seem like a bonus for letting Thralls be killed by map-wiping teammates.

 

Also let Reave work on Enthralled Flames for Health/Shield regeneration...that way the ability doesn't feel useless when Thralls are being massacred.

 

* Almost wish Trinity Well-of-Life increase enemy health was mechanic used for Thralls at least when passing through with Reave (interaction)

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3 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:
4 hours ago, Urlan said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

All good questions, lore-wise, so far; Revenant shouldn't even exist. We learn from Plague Star that just the energy given off by Eidolons, harvested from Plains materials is good enough to poison or augment poison to be more capable of killing massive technocyte organisms far bigger than warframes while we are repeatedly told that warframes utilize Void energy given off by Tenno or Void focuses like the Reservoir on Lua. As far as Nullifiers, their fields are seemingly not meant to block Void energy in setting, but inhibit Void energy usage by Technocyte organisms or at least our transference signal through such fields. If this were developed, it would be interesting to see Nullies be made to be more effective against infested enemies, disorienting them and negating some of their innate ability usage.

If we were to focus only on the cyst interacting with the warframe, one would have to assume that Helminth is linking directly to the Warframe technocyte to allow the infection growth since it was used to make proto warframes, but this doesn't explain why such cysts down shrivel and die on their own due to the obvious Sentient energy leaking from Revenant form, which is toxic to technocyte organisms like Helminth. Thralls for Revenant, I am wagering we will have to know what warframe the "Warden" warframe originally was, but perhaps they are intended to pull from its original abilities, to explain why it is something neither normal Sentient or the Eidolons in specific which are what inspired Revenant's design have showed any ability to do themselves./

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Thank you kindly for sharing.

 

I have an inkling that 'Warden frame' mentioned in quest will just end up being Revenant Prime; with more unanswered lore-questions....or it will be a frame specifically tied to the upcoming Special Eidolon.

 

Has me looking back at how it was teased Gersemi was the pre-Alad V Valkyr...then they went and did Valkyr Prime resembling post Zanuka Project...and followed it up with 2nd Dream Hunhow calling Alad V an Orokin & Alad V talking as if he witnessed the Moon's disappearance and Tenno's Betrayal...(rather than it simply being history or stories shared/passed down to him)

But Gersemi cannot be pre-Orokin era...unless similar to Mara Detron.

Also makes it weird with Mesa being experimented with Mutalist Technocyte...unless DE is playing it safe with the Collar-control being the 'augmentation'...this not having a significantly different Mesa Prime mesh.

 

Hoping there is some more explanation to Revenant Senitent/Eidolon crossed with Void/Technocyte ... Or at least be the official exception to rule

 

 

Yeah Hunhow called Alad V an Orokin likely since he sees little difference between the descendants and the original Empire humans. Primes are not the originals, or at least aren't the ones the original designer, Archimedes Silvana made since she took the Titania she last completed, and it was a normal as well. Even still, Gersemi is the original look for the non-prime with the modified by Alad V version just being from our scans of the once thought lost warframe. Darvo thankfully found the original schematics later. In Mesa's case, the warframe is just controlled via Mutalist Alad V's control collar and not modified otherwise just not seemingly connected to a Tenno otherwise according to Lotus.

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I still like the idea of pillars projectiles converting thralls,and only damaging once cap is reached.

I do think his 4 should not destroy pillars.

I liked someone's suggestion of Reave interacting with pillars

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22 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Urlan ...my error, Tenno

 

Why, oh why, is my Revenant able to have the Helminth Cyst infestation?!?

I get Revenant being the exception to the rule as Sentient cannot be infected, except for this one Warframe ...that is harnessed Sentient energy in a Warframe.

 

I am lost as to why Revenant is both eligible for the Cyst and also able to be Nullified.

 

Its the reason u have to collect his parts in the first place. Revenant got manhandled some time ago due to being susceptible? After team mates killed his thralls he was open to extra damage and...

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On 2018-09-26 at 10:33 PM, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

Do you have around 14 mesmer skin charges with your build or is it exactly the same as his power strength wise? If not then you don't have enough power strength to get enough charges to make use of. My build is a balanced build in about everything except range. Range is not that useful on revenant.

Its like tactical potatoes. I'll try dropping range and do more power strength, but I feel it will the usability of his other skills.

Anyways my issue with revenant right now is the powers do flow smoothly for me - particularly the first and second ability. I'm of the mindset that his thralls should feed into powers more; not mesmer skin making thralling easier. Hope this makes sense.

 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Its like tactical potatoes. I'll try dropping range and do more power strength, but I feel it will the usability of his other skills.

Anyways my issue with revenant right now is the powers do flow smoothly for me - particularly the first and second ability. I'm of the mindset that his thralls should feed into powers more; not mesmer skin making thralling easier. Hope this makes sense.

 

The only time you should really be thralling is when you either come across a powerful unit or need enemy fire drawn away from you. Which usually in most of those situations you can do just fine with negative range. Matter of fact range for most part is a dump stat for revenant.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

The only time you should really be thralling is when you either come across a powerful unit or need enemy fire drawn away from you. Which usually in most of those situations you can do just fine with negative range. Matter of fact range for most part is a dump stat for revenant.

It sounds like the playstyle you are playing is a simple run and gun - with a very low use of abilities (akin to Destiny).

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43 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

It sounds like the playstyle you are playing is a simple run and gun - with a very low use of abilities (akin to Destiny).

Not really, when there's a huge crowd of enemies I use danse macabre to kill them all while dashing around with reave. If I'm under heavy pressure and there's too much enemy fire I thrall an enemy and have it spread to draw fire away. Range barely matters on revenant as it only effects the casting range of his 1 and the thickness of the beams from danse macabre.

Your issue here is that you might be expecting the A.I to be useful for things other than being meatshields that draw aggro. A.I in this game currently suck at fighting each other. The only hope of pets and minions being useful for things other than drawing fire is for DE to rework pet/minion A.I.

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27 minutes ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

Not really, when there's a huge crowd of enemies I use danse macabre to kill them all while dashing around with reave. If I'm under heavy pressure and there's too much enemy fire I thrall an enemy and have it spread to draw fire away. Range barely matters on revenant as it only effects the casting range of his 1 and the thickness of the beams from danse macabre.

Your issue here is that you might be expecting the A.I to be useful for things other than being meatshields that draw aggro. A.I in this game currently suck at fighting each other. The only hope of pets and minions being useful for things other than drawing fire is for DE to rework pet/minion A.I.

I only expect the enthralled enemies to be meatshield, that said when they convert they are providing me with small amount of cc (just like Nyx chaos).

I just want better syngery between the 2 powers - the notion of having to activate mesmer skin (which consumes a charge regardless of damage recieved) as well as activate enthrall (which is per target) is a lot of button presses, and then you have mesmer skin provide a free enthrall is a set up i find a little bit backwards, as the further in you go it becomes super chaotic - find the person who hit you to enthrall them for free.

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I only expect the enthralled enemies to be meatshield, that said when they convert they are providing me with small amount of cc (just like Nyx chaos).

I just want better syngery between the 2 powers - the notion of having to activate mesmer skin (which consumes a charge regardless of damage recieved) as well as activate enthrall (which is per target) is a lot of button presses, and then you have mesmer skin provide a free enthrall is a set up i find a little bit backwards, as the further in you go it becomes super chaotic - find the person who hit you to enthrall them for free.

How about the ability to imitate the Healing Roar that Eidolons do when we down them with no Synovia left? If Thralls are standing when Revenant goes down, they rush towards him, picking him up and adding their life totals to his until he is fully healed?

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24 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I just want better syngery between the 2 powers - the notion of having to activate mesmer skin (which consumes a charge regardless of damage recieved) as well as activate enthrall (which is per target) is a lot of button presses, and then you have mesmer skin provide a free enthrall is a set up i find a little bit backwards, as the further in you go it becomes super chaotic - find the person who hit you to enthrall them for free.

that can be fixed if DE added a visual indicator of who was stunned. Maybe sort of an eidolon eidolon tentacle that lashes out at the stunned enemy, leaving eidolon energy wrapped around the target for the stun period? Also mesmer skin with the fix is now allows revenant to contest with nidus and wukong in terms of survivability.

 

edit: well the fix that is on pc that is.

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It would be really good, if enthralled units would receive either damage reduction from allies or at least short immortality (2-5 seconds) right after enthralling. At it's current state Enthrall, while playing with others, cannot be played like control instrument, as any enthralled unit instantly being killed by allies, which does not allow Revenant to be played in it's full usability most of time.

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Small thing, but it bugs me: the positioning of rifles on Revenant's back causes surprisingly severe clipping through his arm when he's equipped with the Revenant Noble Animation Set. Honestly if we could change rifle holstering like we can melee, a simple move of the holster position toward his spine would do the trick. Other than that, he's pretty great if you play him right.

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Here I am going to go through Revenant's powers and what is wrong with them. The current game version, as of writing this, is 23.9.1. 

I want to preface this by saying that I really like Revenant's style. Wonky, technical, and interlocking abilities are my bread and butter.

 

Passive: Retaliation

This passive is largely useless for various reason depending on the difficulty of the content. For one, easier stuff essentially ensures you will always be running around with tons of shields, even unmodded, and in high difficulty stuff you're more likely to simply be dead. Without a reliable, controlled way of depleting your shields, this passive just boils down to a little quirk exclusive to the frame, much like Nekros' passive. My solution for this passive also ties into his third ability, so I will discuss it further down.

 

First Power: Enthrall

"Hordes of mooks? WHERE DO I SIGN UP?" is what I first thought upon reading this power's description, but sadly it's just a handful of grunts who are entirely unchanged with exception to their targeting logic. Now it can be useful to turn something like a Nox over to your own side, but that's about where the utility ends (unless you play by yourself in a team-oriented game). 

Overall, there are two glaring problems with this power:

First, it lacks immediacy (which is an overarching problem with the frame itself). Revenant quickly raises his hand to cast his spell, but the animation before the effect actually occurs results in wasted time. I've found that, while playing in a team, before the power is fully cast, the target is already dead in most cases, killed by your friends. This power lacking immediacy also extends to the way it propagates itself. The enemies have to damage each other to spread the mind-domination effect, but have you actually stopped and observed how a mook switches its targets? It takes them forever! Again, if you've managed to successfully enthrall a foe, they'll scarce hit another enemy before they're mercilessly killed by your friends.

Second, it doesn't really help you. Seriously, why bother enslaving a handful of grunts when you can cut them down MUCH faster? Even in defensive situations, they don't really detract from the constant onslaught you face. The utility of this power simply pales in comparison to the egregious ass-whoopin' you can dish out with your own two hands. Furthermore, 7 mooks under your control isn't a horde. Dozens is a horde. The energy pillars that spawn when a thrall dies are pretty juicy, however they always spawn in such off the wall places that they don't really have much impact on the fight. 

As for a solution or a crutch for this power, I recommend making the enthralled mooks only able to be killed by other enemies and by Revenant himself, and ONLY by detonating them with the first power. Having the mooks invulnerable to your and your friends' attacks would at least allow the "horde" to last long enough to combat the incoming actual horde of enemies. Giving them a little damage and defense steroid, a la Nekros, would certainly help in this regard. Being able to detonate the enemies, transforming them into the energy pillars, would add to the utility of this power, essentially giving it an "off switch". Making the thralls immune to Revenant's own attacks is important as it prevents him from wasting previous casts of the first ability by mowing them down with his fourth ability. This would provide a natural synergy solely due to the game's foundational mechanics; your thralls attract enemy fire away from you, and you burn holes in the enemies as they do so. The fourth power interacting with the thralls in a different way could be interesting too, perhaps channeling the Danse Macabre's damage INTO your thralls' attacks, buffing them so long as you're still spinning.

Also, permanent thralls when?

 

Second Power: Mesmer Skin

Powers like this are what I live for. I'm a tank at heart and I live to spank. This power does both, in theory. In actuality, Mesmer Skin is pretty mediocre. Like Enthrall before it, it lacks immediacy. The main thing keeping Revenant alive is slow as molasses to cast and doesn't last long at all. This power could be taken in multiple directions and so I will discuss a couple below.

Mesmer Skin could simply use some steroids. Upping the amount of hits Mesmer Skin soaks before collapsing would be a godsend, but to go one step beyond, perhaps give Mesmer Skin an invulnerability period after each hit successfully deflected. This would allow for Revenant to actually stand up to his enemies' attacks for longer periods of time, rather than having his defenses chopped down pretty much immediately after casting (the Amesha Archwing also suffers from this). In addition to beefing up the defensive aspect of Mesmer Skin, just give it a quicker cast time or a true invulnerability period right after it falters, similar to the new and improved Nezha. The stun portion of Mesmer Skin is pretty underwhelming too. Doctor suggests a few helpings of AoE to make this problem go away.

Mesmer Skin could invert damage. In keeping with the undead theme of this frame, Mesmer Skin could cause incoming attacks to ADD to his health rather than subtract from it. These hits would still consume the charges of the power, but would function as an additional heal to the frame. A real clutch power if used properly. Also, please cut down the cast time.

 

Third Power: Reave

This one is a doozy, so bear with me. To put it shortly, this power should be the passive. I feel REALLY strongly about this one. Now allow me to explain.

So upon using Reave, Revenant casts a spell and, a few moments later, charges forward as a cloud of fog. The power saps the life force of enemies and adds it to your own. On paper this sounds awesome, and it really is if you fully invest into casting speed, but the power as a whole just doesn't have any oomph. You rush through the enemies in your path (after a hideously long cast time) and pretty much don't phase them one bit. You steal a little health and go on your merry way. Now that's fine, but the power's effects just don't warrant the cast time. Instead if keeping Reave as a cast-able power, why not attach these effects to Revenant's bullet jump? Giving Revenant a leeching bullet jump would go miles in carving him out his own little unique niche (sort of like Limbo) and would solve the problem of this power lacking immediacy. Having Reave be Revenant's passive power would obviously open up a new slot for a new power, and hopefully one with some oomph of its own. I will put a few quick suggestions below:

Summoned Revenant-lysts: In keeping with the whole mook-master direction of Revenant, he could summon some mooks of his own to aid his thralls (or himself). These mooks could scale off of the energy pillars from the first power, unleashing the pillars' little homing energy attack every now and then. Perhaps when these lysts are defeated, they will heal nearby allies. Maybe these lysts can enthrall enemies on their own. 

Phylactery: As it stands, Revenant is not a revenant. Wukong is a revenant. Nidus is a revenant. Inaros is a revenant. Revenant is not a revenant. Perhaps this new power could allow him to sacrifice one of his thralls to revive himself, allowing him to cheat death like a revenant. Maybe, upon being killed with this new power active, Revenant turns into an incorporeal mist until he jumps through some hoops to return to the physical world. Go nuts.

Berserk Mode: As Revenant has some means of healing himself (especially in light of the discussion regarding Mesmer Skin), he could trade in this newly acquired life force to roid himself up. At the press of a button he could sacrifice some of his health and get some sort of juicy boost to his offense. Something like this could allow him to step in and out of tank and attacker roles. A risk-vs-reward sort of deal. This would sort of put Revenant in the Dark Knight class though.

 

Fourth Power: Danse Macabre

Honestly, this power is pretty much spot on. It's fun to use in a bind, and has some really good oomph behind it, especially if you use the turbo mode and suck all your energy out to cut everything nearby to ribbons. A really good ouch-to-energy tradeoff. The only thing I'd change about this power would be the animations, but even the silly animations are really fun as they currently are.

 

Overall, I like Revenant, but he's sort of mediocre. I absolutely love his style though, and not just the wonky technical playstyle, but even the way he looks. Everything about his agile animations screams "1990s Tokusatsu Buff" and you can even color him to resemble such.

22xZryu.jpg

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A couple PRIME TIMES ago REB stated that there were more tweaks and changes coming to REV, i dearly hope they haven't forgotten about it, because that frame is far from being finished, useful and least of all interesting/fun to play...

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so Ive been playing around with rev more.....there are a couple things I noticed...his 4 is garbage against ancients due to it being gas damage....why not change it to radiation? Radiation IS superior against infested as it disables the aura sharing of affected ancients...in addition to causing even more confusion amongst enemies.

Another thing i noticed is that his enthrall stops the aura of parasitic/energy leech eximi.....Can that part be added to radiation status...would make dealing with them much less of a hassle?

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4 hours ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

A couple PRIME TIMES ago REB stated that there were more tweaks and changes coming to REV, i dearly hope they haven't forgotten about it, because that frame is far from being finished, useful and least of all interesting/fun to play...

Pretty much this. I'm surprised that we haven't had a followup of this yet, and it's a tad worrisome.

 

Revenant's Passive and Reave are more fit for a frame that wants to/ can take damage, but Mesmer Skin negates damage, thus making shield damage and healing useless on his kit. Besides, he is quite squishy without Mesmer Skin, so there's not a lot of room for healing himself. Now let me say, I actually do love where Mesmer Skin is right now. I don't find myself running out of charges a ton, especially being recastable, but I love that recasting the skill actually leaves Revenant vulnerable to damage for a short duration. I think that small vulnerability period is fair, considering how strong the skill is.

 

For Thralls, the issue is that they are meant to spread like wildfire. The issue is they get snuffed out before becoming useful at all. Revenant cannot cast Enthrall fast enough, and on enough enemies at once, to bypass allies shredding through them.

The one solution I can come up with...when manually casting Enthrall onto an enemy, on death that enemy respawns as a ghostly summon of itself that lasts the remaining duration of Enthrall. This way, the enemy still technically dies, but now allies can't remove it from the game anymore and it can continue to spread the thrall virus. 

 

Also, please remove Danse Macabre detonating pillars! I'd rather have the pillars stick around!

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I've been pawing through this thread and literally no one likes Dance Macabre detonating pillars (Sorry!). I'm sort of fine with Enthrall being a pillar printing machine but once I get my pillars I can't use Dance Macabre. Please consider removing this function and add something else. 

Also please fix Rebbenant's #1 problem of not being able to take thralls quickly and efficiently. Add more ways for them to spread or make Enthrall AoE. 

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On 2018-09-30 at 7:23 PM, Sea_Wall said:

I've been pawing through this thread and literally no one likes Dance Macabre detonating pillars (Sorry!). I'm sort of fine with Enthrall being a pillar printing machine but once I get my pillars I can't use Dance Macabre. Please consider removing this function and add something else. 

Also please fix Rebbenant's #1 problem of not being able to take thralls quickly and efficiently. Add more ways for them to spread or make Enthrall AoE. 

Echoing this.

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I would like to see thrall's spread rate go up so that Revenant doesn't have to constantly cast Enthrall to keep his minions from dwindling too quickly.

Would like to suggest the following, mostly shifting existing mechanics around:

  • Thralls have a chance to drop an Overshields pickup on death by default. This feature is moved from Danse Macabre.
  • Thralls become spectral for half the remaining duration when killed. Spectral thralls are considered allies (not killable by players but killable by enemies), have copied stats of their former selves, and will still Enthrall other enemies on hit. All thralls (physical and spectral) count toward the cap. Can Reave through spectral thralls for shields/health/Mesmer Skin charges, as usual.
  • Holding down Enthrall summons all thralls (physical and spectral) back to Revenant's side.
  • Danse Macabre converts spectral thralls into Eidolon pillars when they are hit by lasers. Pillars no longer detonate.

With these changes I think Enthrall as an ability and its related synergies can see more consistency in effectiveness. It would become a semi-reliable source of Overshields production, see more thralls active on the field at once, allow Revenant to relocate his army where he needs them (helps Reave significantly), and create pillars for even more damage/lasting CC when combined with Danse Macabre.

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On 2018-09-29 at 10:57 PM, Reefermun said:

Here I am going to go through Revenant's powers and what is wrong with them. The current game version, as of writing this, is 23.9.1. 

I want to preface this by saying that I really like Revenant's style. Wonky, technical, and interlocking abilities are my bread and butter.

 

Passive: Retaliation

This passive is largely useless for various reason depending on the difficulty of the content. For one, easier stuff essentially ensures you will always be running around with tons of shields, even unmodded, and in high difficulty stuff you're more likely to simply be dead. Without a reliable, controlled way of depleting your shields, this passive just boils down to a little quirk exclusive to the frame, much like Nekros' passive. My solution for this passive also ties into his third ability, so I will discuss it further down.

 

First Power: Enthrall

-Trimmed-

 

Second Power: Mesmer Skin

Powers like this are what I live for. I'm a tank at heart and I live to spank. This power does both, in theory. In actuality, Mesmer Skin is pretty mediocre. Like Enthrall before it, it lacks immediacy. The main thing keeping Revenant alive is slow as molasses to cast and doesn't last long at all. This power could be taken in multiple directions and so I will discuss a couple below.

Mesmer Skin could simply use some steroids. Upping the amount of hits Mesmer Skin soaks before collapsing would be a godsend, but to go one step beyond, perhaps give Mesmer Skin an invulnerability period after each hit successfully deflected. This would allow for Revenant to actually stand up to his enemies' attacks for longer periods of time, rather than having his defenses chopped down pretty much immediately after casting (the Amesha Archwing also suffers from this). In addition to beefing up the defensive aspect of Mesmer Skin, just give it a quicker cast time or a true invulnerability period right after it falters, similar to the new and improved Nezha. The stun portion of Mesmer Skin is pretty underwhelming too. Doctor suggests a few helpings of AoE to make this problem go away.

-Trimmed-

Third Power: Reave

This one is a doozy, so bear with me. To put it shortly, this power should be the passive. I feel REALLY strongly about this one.

-Trimmed-

 

Fourth Power: Danse Macabre

Honestly, this power is pretty much spot on. -Trimmed-

I have trimmed most of what I'm not replying too. I agree with pretty much most of everything here and added a few bolds to stress a few points. Firstly his passive does not tie into his abilities at all. Not only does Mesmer Skin prevent the passive from ever coming into play, the overshield mechanic suggests you'd want to keep the shields up as long as possible to survive. Actively depleting them for the knockdown when you can only get them 50 at a time with Danse Macabre is counterproductive. He needs an entirely new passive and I do like the idea of making Reave the passive on his roll or bullet jump.

If not, it can't be stressed enough how much his passive actually needs to be changed.

Changes to his Enthrall are also necessary but I want to look at a few quotes first before summarizing the issue at hand and addressing it in a way that'd solve most of his problems. Keep the bolded part of Mesmer Skin in mind. Hence the trim on that Enthrall.

 

On 2018-09-30 at 1:58 PM, EchoesOfRain said:

Pretty much this. I'm surprised that we haven't had a followup of this yet, and it's a tad worrisome.

 

Revenant's Passive and Reave are more fit for a frame that wants to/ can take damage, but Mesmer Skin negates damage, thus making shield damage and healing useless on his kit. Besides, he is quite squishy without Mesmer Skin, so there's not a lot of room for healing himself. Now let me say, I actually do love where Mesmer Skin is right now. I don't find myself running out of charges a ton, especially being recastable, but I love that recasting the skill actually leaves Revenant vulnerable to damage for a short duration. I think that small vulnerability period is fair, considering how strong the skill is.

 

For Thralls, the issue is that they are meant to spread like wildfire. The issue is they get snuffed out before becoming useful at all. Revenant cannot cast Enthrall fast enough, and on enough enemies at once, to bypass allies shredding through them.

The one solution I can come up with...when manually casting Enthrall onto an enemy, on death that enemy respawns as a ghostly summon of itself that lasts the remaining duration of Enthrall. This way, the enemy still technically dies, but now allies can't remove it from the game anymore and it can continue to spread the thrall virus. 

 

Also, please remove Danse Macabre detonating pillars! I'd rather have the pillars stick around!

The pillars from dead Enthralled enemies disappearing is a nail in the coffin for the ability when it's already so hard to get any use out of it. I'd be fine with it being a slow cast if it at least was reliable in what it could do, and not only is it not reliable, it struggles against itself. I do think Enthralled enemies should be useful both in life and in death and we should definitely take things a step further and allow for different synergy and build strategies depending on what you want to go for. More on that after the third quote.

 

22 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

I would like to see thrall's spread rate go up so that Revenant doesn't have to constantly cast Enthrall to keep his minions from dwindling too quickly.

Would like to suggest the following, mostly shifting existing mechanics around:

  • Thralls have a chance to drop an Overshields pickup on death by default. This feature is moved from Danse Macabre.
  • Thralls become spectral for half the remaining duration when killed. Spectral thralls are considered allies (not killable by players but killable by enemies), have copied stats of their former selves, and will still Enthrall other enemies on hit. All thralls (physical and spectral) count toward the cap. Can Reave through spectral thralls for shields/health/Mesmer Skin charges, as usual.
  • Holding down Enthrall summons all thralls (physical and spectral) back to Revenant's side.
  • Danse Macabre converts spectral thralls into Eidolon pillars when they are hit by lasers. Pillars no longer detonate.

With these changes I think Enthrall as an ability and its related synergies can see more consistency in effectiveness. It would become a semi-reliable source of Overshields production, see more thralls active on the field at once, allow Revenant to relocate his army where he needs them (helps Reave significantly), and create pillars for even more damage/lasting CC when combined with Danse Macabre.

So this is where my actual post comes in, and I'm going to make it concise since It's already taking up a lot of the page with this multi-quote. The biggest issue is Enthrall's general unreliability and I feel the second and third quotes address these the best, but the first quote's AoE suggestion on Mesmer Skin can be tied into this. So Here's my proposal and my reasoning for it will come after:

  • Mesmer Skin will stun enemies in an AoE, rather than just the enemy that activated Mesmer Skin. Visual Indicator of this stun is also necessary. Scales with Power Range. (Credit to Reefermun)
  • Enthrall will cast in an AoE if cast on an enemy affected by Mesmer Skin's stun. Scales with Range, identical to range on Mesmer Skin AoE Stun. (Credit to Reefermun)
  • Enthralled enemies can be re positioned to where you're aiming by hold-casting Enthrall, and detonated manually by recasting Enthrall on the enthralled enemy. Castable during Dance Macabre, both the detonation and repositioning. (Credit to PsiWarp and EchoesofRain).
  • Enthralled Enemies cannot be cut down by Teammates, like Nyx's Mind Control and Nidus' link, and instead store damage and take it all at once should the ability duration run out before they're detonated. (Credit to EchoesofRain).
  • Danse Macabre no longer destroys the energy Pillars and instead last the full duration. Instead, the synergy with Danse Macabre should be standing within the energy pillar increases Danse Macabre's range and reduces energy cost. To be similar to before the energy cost nerf. (Most credit to EchoesofRain. He's right about Pillars needing to stick around.

Going backwards from the list and explaining the reasoning now. Danse Macabre should still have synergy with Enthrall, but it shouldn't destroy the pillars. Some people find that Danse Macabre's energy cost increase was a bit of a harsh nerf but I agree with the nerf. Instead, it should be a boon acquired through synergy. Revenant takes too long to cast anything, so having to pop in and out of Danse Macabre to create more thralls should be kept to a minimum. This is fixed by having Thralls not die from anything except manual detonation/duration expiration and taking enough damage prior. More range on Danse Macabre to compensate for the fixed pillar locations, and increased energy efficiency is good.

This goes really well with being able to move thralls on demand with the Hold Cast-Reposition. You'd be able to set these pillars 'wherever you want', at least 1 of them. It also makes it easier to get Mesmer Skin charges in 1 cast of Reave, whether Reave is moved to a passive or not, by bunching up the Enthralls you made so far into one spot. It fixes the issue of making Enthralls that end up stuck early on the map and you have to move. The hard cap makes it so that you can't make more after you move on forwards in the map and leave the old ones behind. If that's gonna stay, letting us move them is perfect.

Lastly, AoE stun on Mesmer Skin is great crowd control and being able to catch more than 1 Thrall with a single free cast cuts down on time having to cast such a long ability. This also helps with the fact that Allies only get 1 charge of Mesmer Skin when you Reave through them. Just for it to affect one enemy that you might not ever see goes against trying to buff your teammates like this. And it's probably not going to save their life if it's just one enemy that gets stunned. Better stun the firing squad.

The changes would make Revenant more consistent with the abilities he currently has. Changing the passive goes without saying, but now even without a passive change he'll work more consistnetly with the intended purpose of his abilities. Enthrall will become something you snowball and can use with Danse Macabre. Mesmer Skin and Reave both help you accomplish this as long as you use his abilities properly.

These changes give a purpose to all his stats, including Power Range, and give you the option to play negative energy efficiency if you're careful and take caution to group Thralls before casting Reave or Danse Macabre.

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Went back to playing Rev again for a bit. Honestly, he still has the issue with his kit not being used to the fullest. Why? because his thralls are killed by friendly players.

Seriously! No matter how big a visual you make the thralls, even if it is so obvious they are friendly, players will still shoot at them! I was standing still with 7 thralls wondering around me only to have a friendly walk up and kill them all. It is beyond annoying, it is as if Nekro's thralls are kill able by friendlies that is beyond annoying and would render his ultimate useless. I still stand by friendly player accumulated damage like Nyx's mind control and that only Revs can directly damage them during the enthrall timer. I also recommend that when you enthrall a boss, that it is no more then 1 or 3 seconds, or make it so that it's not possible to enthrall a boss at all. 

Even when playing Nekros, players still shot at the minions trying to kill them, but stopped once they realized they can't deal damageThe same applies here, but because the thralls can receive damage, players will keep shooting away. You could give a 99% damage reduction from friendly players, but if they see damage number, they will keep shooting the thrall anyway. And dealing 99% less damage is worse then just having an accumulated 100% damage hitting the thrall at the end of the enthrall timer.

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Several things irks me about Enthrall... that a fellow Revenant is able to erase my pillars with Danse Macabre, that sometimes for some reason my teammates and my own weapons can make pillars explode by hitting them (bug?), and that thralls rarely live long enough to make use of the synergies built into Revenant's other abilities.

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4 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Several things irks me about Enthrall... that a fellow Revenant is able to erase my pillars with Danse Macabre, that sometimes for some reason my teammates and my own weapons can make pillars explode by hitting them (bug?), and that thralls rarely live long enough to make use of the synergies built into Revenant's other abilities.

His kit is so unreliable and we mostly have no benefits from his synergies ( with exception of fast traversal with Danse Macabre + Reave )

You cast #1 to turn enemies into thralls but guess what happens ! They die before turning into thralls and whole casting is wasted. Not to mention spread part.

Reave gives Mesmer Skin charges from Thralls but guess what happens ! They die before getting hit by Reave. Should I mention how slow the cast is without Danse Macabre ?

Ok , your dead thralls give you cool Pillars that shoot projectiles but guess what happens ! They get destroyed by Danse Macabre ( and bug you mentioned ) for some damage. Whole zoning with pillars is wasted as well.

Thralls killed by Danse Macabre drops overshield orbs which have no use for Revenant since Mesmer Skin protects him from all damage taken. Keep Mesmer Skin active and you won't need any overshields. Eh , its good for allies but they have to pick them up one by one and amount of overshields is too low.

His passive is activated on shield depletion but guess what happens ! He rarely loses shields with Mesmer Skin + Reave's shield leech + Overshield orbs + Sentinels' shield recharge mods.

I have never seen a frame contradicts itself this much. Waiting for the " changes " that Reb mentioned in one of prime times.

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