Dear DE, please put SOME sort of player filter on Tridolon bounties

[Graavarg]

Nothing is worse for all involved than one noob without amp, any eidolon knowledge, wrong warframes and absolutely no experience destroying a Tridolon mission. This is a situation that should NEVER be allowed to happen in a co-op game. It simply and only detracts from the player experience, and without any good reason.

I know that this topic has been discussed before (and not just once), but the current situation is a total shame. The chance to get an interesting Tridolon together with random Tennos is around 1:1, that is about half the time you get a team member that should never be in this level of mission. This in turn leads to an effect where good eidolon hunters simply abort a Tridolon mission at the start based on the MR of participating players. Which in turn leads to many excellent eidolon hunters with a lower MR being left high and dry.

And while I personally abhor players that selfishly extracts and probably crashes the mission that way, in the current situation I can understand them. If you want to do two or more Tridolon hunts in one night, there is simply no other option.

Or even if you want to do one. It is actually easier to do the Tridolon with just one trusted player than together with a hopeless wannabe Tridolon-capper, since there is large chance that they miss to pick up the shards (and forget where they dropped), or run all over the map (instead of using an archwing), or are not able to jump to the shrine (falling into Gara Toth multiple times for 5-10 minutes), or immediately rez themselves every time, dying their final death before even the Gantu is finished. If they went and sat outside the gate to the plains it would be semiacceptable, since there they would not actually hinder the mission.

Now, I understand everybody starts as noobs, also when hunting eidolons. But forcing noobs to play in the top league from the start is just stupid. Even in warframe.  

While you can get into a good team through the recruit channel, there are some quite ridiculous quirks related to that as well (like players with limited personal experience having very strict "rules" who'll they'll accept, rules which they themselves can't even pass 🙂).

There really needs to be some sort of experience and/or equipment wall for Tridolon hunts. It would change the game into something better, and remove a LOT of frustration and aggro. The current "filter", that the player wanting to participate in a Tridolon hunt just needs to have an amp (any amp, even a level 0 Mote will do) is slightly ridiculous. For the Teralyst hunt it is ok, but for joining a hunt with the specific aim of bringing down the Teralyst, Gantulyst and Hydrolyst in a row... come on.

[therealDG]

How bout you stop acting all high and mighty and form your own squad in recruiting chat.

[Urlan]

One can refrain from public if they don't want to deal with public. It helps I am told. Either way, good luck with your future runs.

[peterc3]

Since nobody in Public matches seem to match your exceptional skill and cannot match your impeccable standards... make your own squad in chat. 

38 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

(like players with limited personal experience having very strict "rules" who'll they'll accept, rules which they themselves can't even pass 🙂)

Then you make your own rules and recruit a squad and not leave it to others to then whine about their rules. You've engineered the situation your are complaining about.

[Flustershy]

Just like all the other lads are saying, go to recruit chat, and make your own dream party with the specific frames and weapons.

 And don't be here on the forums complaining about a problem that is not even a problem to begin with.

[Graavarg]

18 minutes ago, therealDG said:

How bout you stop acting all high and mighty and form your own squad in recruiting chat.

Funnily enough, this isn't about me. It isn't even about my opinions or feelings, it's about the game.

Most, if not all, MMOs have systems in place that simply stops lower level players from accessing higher level mission and mixing with higher level players. They do this for very good reasons. It is the same IRL, just pick about any sport, or why not even bridge (for x sake), all have complicated systems in place trying to mix player of the same skill levels.

Even in Warframe many quests and mission have these kinds of level locks, for instance to start the new Revenant miniquest you need lvl 2 standing with the Quills. The Umbra quest demands that Harrow is completed. The starchart even acts a sort of level system, until it is unlocked.

But one of the top tier missions in the game is kind of wide open, and it is NOT for the best regarding player enjoyment. Anyone wants to claim that this leads to more happiness and better enjoyment, feel free...

[Graavarg]

5 minutes ago, Flustershy said:

Just like all the other lads are saying, go to recruit chat, and make your own dream party with the specific frames and weapons.

 And don't be here on the forums complaining about a problem that is not even a problem to begin with.

This is not about any eidolon-meta-max-dream-part, that is something altogether different. And as I already stated it isn't even about me (surprise, surprise). This is about enjoying playing the game, and trying to avoid player distress and unhappiness.

There are only really two missions where I often see truly salty "feedback" directed at other players, the Tridolon hunt bounty mission and the Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. In the onslaught it almost exclusively concerns the host suddenly leaving and all that follows from that, and since that player has already left he/she never sees the other players opinions about his/her bugging out (and yes, pun intended). In the Tridolon hunt, the comments are directed directly at a (often much) less experienced player, struggling with the details of the mission and/or it's difficulty (usually to the detriment of the rest of the team). It is not a happy situation. and it doesn't have the makings of an interesting and enjoyable mission (in an online MMO game, which actually should be fun).

Since players in Warframe are generally both well-behaved and helpful towards others, it is unfortunate that DE has decided to implement the Tridolon bounty this way as it brings out quite contrary behaviour. And in a way the language used is even understandable, though it is unfortunate that a less experienced player is put in such a position in the first place.

This is why I think DE should implement some sort of filter, or alternatively improve their match-making algorithms, keeping players of the same skill level and experience together. Simply to make the game space a happier place (or at least the Plains of Eidolon).

...

And finally, you DO know the terminology concerning people who feel they somehow have the right to decide who should or shouldn't take part in the discussion, and that they should  somehow get to decide what you can write about. I'll assume you do, so we don't have to go into that... 🙂 

[Graavarg]

8 minutes ago, Nation_X said:

Never understand people who join public games and then demand how it "should" be played. 

Well, that is just fine. Not everyone has to understand everything, you know.

While I am actually not demanding anything, you are of course also free to fully support the way the Tridolon hunt matchmaking is currently handled. That IS what you are doing, isn't it?

[Pizzarugi]

Your first mistake was thinking you'll ever get good teams in public matchmaking when it comes to hunting tridolons.

As much as I hate using the "use recruitment chat" answer, because it's usually said by noobs who defend broken mechanics in the game, your best bet in this scenario is to look, or make a team yourself, for tridolon hunts.

[Helljack84]

Wow, so many triggered people.

Well to cut it short, some people think that it's perfectly fine to go into endgame without any gear, skills and knowledge and be a dead weight for any team you join.

In 2018s Warframe you're a really awful person if you expect any of the following:

-players play a mission they joined

-players know the mission objective

-players contribute to the mission objective

 

Thanks for bringing it up again, but most players don't seem to care and/or have a static group. If you really don't want to use recruit for any reason just join PUG, skip trash and enjoy your tridolons. Leave unexperienced/trash-players in the dust, no point in caring for them at all, leave them to figure out why everyone leaves their groups or uninstall.

Seriously just look at 95% of the answers on any topic like this, you could have saved yourself some pointless headache. The community is trash and should be treated like such.

 

[rastaban75]

The biggest problem with this mission in particular is that there is no explanation or tutorial of it within the game. You really have to visit the wiki and/or youtube to learn how to do it, at least in theory first. Given how unforgiving it is for the "wrong" type of warframe, equipment and skill level it's no wonder that bad matchmaking occurs. It's not like you can learn by yourself either like you'd do with spy or rescue etc. and it's not like (with their hands full) co-up teammates can help you much, while doing the mission.

It can easily become frustrating, and I can understand that. I joined two (random) groups yesterday and both were very disappointing, especially the second one with players of MR20 or so who didn't know what they are doing (note: I'm seriously not blaming them). At that point one has to either quit, which seems rude in my book and I don't do it, or play on and waste the entire PoE night cycle for pretty much nothing. Every time I try a tridolon I am reminded why I don't like that type of mission, and that's why I've done so few of them. On the other side of the equation there is the recruiting chat, but that often seems very "soldiery" to me.

I'm not offering any suggestions here, I just understand the frustration.

[Graavarg]

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎26 at 11:07 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Your first mistake was thinking you'll ever get good teams in public matchmaking when it comes to hunting tridolons.

As much as I hate using the "use recruitment chat" answer, because it's usually said by noobs who defend broken mechanics in the game, your best bet in this scenario is to look, or make a team yourself, for tridolon hunts.

I am already part of teams hunting Tridolons, and I also do know how to use the recruit chat 🙂. Though I haven't maxed all arcanes yet, I have enough transmuters to last a lifetime. This is NOT about meta-eidolon-hunting, that is something different.

I jumped into the forum straight from four consecutive horror POG Tridolon missions, including verbal abuse, sulking (leaving the fight and starting to fish in Gara Toth 🙂) and rage quitting due to "errors and mistakes by inexperienced hunters" (to avoid the "noob"-word). In one of them the "inexperienced hunter" asked "so how do you do this" after running aimlessly around for minutes, finally arriving at the Teralyst (three limbs done) and instantly dying, which led to two other team members aborting immediately (and yes, it was a Tridolon hunt). In a way I agree, Teralysts are for learning the ropes and holding hands, Tridolon caps not so much. So I probably didn't formulate my initial post clearly enough.

Tridolon caps could work very well in a POG format, if the matching system avoided putting players with huge differences in gear and experience together. If the "inexperienced hunter" joins a casual Tridolon with experienced hunters it can be a joyful experience, but if they happen to join hunters that aim to do several hunts during one night there is a risk that they will be scorned and abused either for contributing nothing (meaningful) and/or for actually hindering & destroying the real objective (doing the caps fast enough to manage two or more). I don't give a flying that everyone choosing such a mission should expect and maybe even accept this, because the truth is that quite a large amount of players do not.

Instead of all the grief, salt att hassle resulting from this, DE should implement some sort of experience and/or gear wall for Tridolon hunts, and/or improve the match-making algorithms, or, even better, include an additional "Elite Tridolon" with some limit (like 10 hydrolysts capped or something), thus allowing all the hunters that can't stand "noob hunters" to gather together in one place.

[W3zeer]

Well I guess an entry barrier could make sense in a way. Eidolons were specifically designed to challenge veteran players (although they fail miserably at actually being challenging at all) so inexperienced players who still are trying to get the controls right where not meant to face them. Yes other games have those barriers from preventing players that are not deemed ready to participate in high stakes missions, but on the other hand we have the situation that warframe is designed so easy that even a single player can compensate a total failure of the 3 other teammates, which is not possible in most other games. And installing those barriers could be a bit harder than you might imagine, would you seperate for mastery rank? That's a very weak indicator of actual player skill. Using your weapons as a metric doesn't work too well either, especially since we don't have a real rating system for them in place and rivens can make quite the difference. Although since DE pretty effectivly killed the concept of freedom of choice they could indeed request you using one of the 4 (or 5) frames of choice and a Lanka for being able to group up 😉 .

The thing is you advocate that the wishes of ppl that want to be able to cap as many eidolons as possible should be worth more than those of the ppl who only want a relaxed run with a single cap. But that's not how public works. If that causes anyone to rage that's the fault of the rager alone. If it's really that big of a deal, the person simply can not rely on random matchmaking. It's like that in any aspect of the game, eidolons are not different. Maybe, as an experienced player, you should only start public matches with the mindset of, in the worst case, you get to educating those "noobs", so the community of ppl that are able of taking down tridolons with ease grows, instead of cussing at them and driving them away from the pool of players you want to be larger? Sure, every now and then you get someone who really wants to ruin your day, but for the most part ppl aren't bad because they want to be bad. They just lack experience. And how are they supposed to get it if a toxic community does nothing but tell them "get out of my game"?

So, long story short: I would not be opposed to a barrier, but I don't expect one to be implemented. And until that happens I'd suggest being a little bit more patient and understanding, and not to have unrealistic expectations of random groups. If you can't do that your frustration is on you.

 

 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

All this talk of gating off with some kind of entry barrier is kind of the wrong way round - you're talking about the symptom, not the cause.

For new players getting started against Eidolons is an absolute pain - I mean, first you have to have beaten most of the game's other bosses and beat the World Within, but then all you get is the Mote amp.

And the Mote is garbage.

To get a good amp you have to fish. Well, grind ranks to catch fish to grind more ranks to buy the bait that lets you catch another fish that lets you get yet another bait (more grinding for the BP) that finally gets you the fish parts (only at night, when lucky) you need for a decent amp.

Assuming you've also been grinding wisps and mining.

And then you have a boss that's immune to status, which is very unusual - chances are all your best guns by around MR8-10 (when you beat War Within) will be status builds. The Lua sentients you'll have just been fighting are all about as much and varied status as possible.

So don't blame the players, blame the PoE grind. There needs to be some kind of lead in - sub bosses with quests that introduce the Eidolon damage profiles (crit and void only) and amp parts. That's how you get rid of players stumbling into the Eidolon fight with no idea how to beat it.

 

[nerfinator6]

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

All this talk of gating off with some kind of entry barrier is kind of the wrong way round - you're talking about the symptom, not the cause.

For new players getting started against Eidolons is an absolute pain - I mean, first you have to have beaten most of the game's other bosses and beat the World Within, but then all you get is the Mote amp.

And the Mote is garbage.

To get a good amp you have to fish. Well, grind ranks to catch fish to grind more ranks to buy the bait that lets you catch another fish that lets you get yet another bait (more grinding for the BP) that finally gets you the fish parts (only at night, when lucky) you need for a decent amp.

Assuming you've also been grinding wisps and mining.

And then you have a boss that's immune to status, which is very unusual - chances are all your best guns by around MR8-10 (when you beat War Within) will be status builds. The Lua sentients you'll have just been fighting are all about as much and varied status as possible.

So don't blame the players, blame the PoE grind. There needs to be some kind of lead in - sub bosses with quests that introduce the Eidolon damage profiles (crit and void only) and amp parts. That's how you get rid of players stumbling into the Eidolon fight with no idea how to beat it.

 

mini-eidolons when?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

Yes, that would be awesome. Something Natah sized that drops amp crafting components and works like the Eidolon rather than the Lua Sentients.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On 2018-08-26 at 1:50 PM, Graavarg said:

Nothing is worse for all involved than one noob without amp, any eidolon knowledge, wrong warframes and absolutely no experience destroying a Tridolon mission. This is a situation that should NEVER be allowed to happen in a co-op game. It simply and only detracts from the player experience, and without any good reason.

I know that this topic has been discussed before (and not just once), but the current situation is a total shame. The chance to get an interesting Tridolon together with random Tennos is around 1:1, that is about half the time you get a team member that should never be in this level of mission. This in turn leads to an effect where good eidolon hunters simply abort a Tridolon mission at the start based on the MR of participating players. Which in turn leads to many excellent eidolon hunters with a lower MR being left high and dry.

And while I personally abhor players that selfishly extracts and probably crashes the mission that way, in the current situation I can understand them. If you want to do two or more Tridolon hunts in one night, there is simply no other option.

Or even if you want to do one. It is actually easier to do the Tridolon with just one trusted player than together with a hopeless wannabe Tridolon-capper, since there is large chance that they miss to pick up the shards (and forget where they dropped), or run all over the map (instead of using an archwing), or are not able to jump to the shrine (falling into Gara Toth multiple times for 5-10 minutes), or immediately rez themselves every time, dying their final death before even the Gantu is finished. If they went and sat outside the gate to the plains it would be semiacceptable, since there they would not actually hinder the mission.

Now, I understand everybody starts as noobs, also when hunting eidolons. But forcing noobs to play in the top league from the start is just stupid. Even in warframe.  

While you can get into a good team through the recruit channel, there are some quite ridiculous quirks related to that as well (like players with limited personal experience having very strict "rules" who'll they'll accept, rules which they themselves can't even pass 🙂).

There really needs to be some sort of experience and/or equipment wall for Tridolon hunts. It would change the game into something better, and remove a LOT of frustration and aggro. The current "filter", that the player wanting to participate in a Tridolon hunt just needs to have an amp (any amp, even a level 0 Mote will do) is slightly ridiculous. For the Teralyst hunt it is ok, but for joining a hunt with the specific aim of bringing down the Teralyst, Gantulyst and Hydrolyst in a row... come on.

I agree as i am mr 18 have done over a 100 teralyst captures but only 1 gantulist capture as with a rhino i never get an invite to recruit chat and doing tridolon pubs is just lol.

[Spectre-8]

On 2018-08-26 at 9:50 PM, Graavarg said:

Nothing is worse for all involved than one noob without amp, any eidolon knowledge, wrong warframes and absolutely no experience destroying a Tridolon mission. This is a situation that should NEVER be allowed to happen in a co-op game. It simply and only detracts from the player experience, and without any good reason.

I know that this topic has been discussed before (and not just once), but the current situation is a total shame. The chance to get an interesting Tridolon together with random Tennos is around 1:1, that is about half the time you get a team member that should never be in this level of mission. This in turn leads to an effect where good eidolon hunters simply abort a Tridolon mission at the start based on the MR of participating players. Which in turn leads to many excellent eidolon hunters with a lower MR being left high and dry.

And while I personally abhor players that selfishly extracts and probably crashes the mission that way, in the current situation I can understand them. If you want to do two or more Tridolon hunts in one night, there is simply no other option.

Or even if you want to do one. It is actually easier to do the Tridolon with just one trusted player than together with a hopeless wannabe Tridolon-capper, since there is large chance that they miss to pick up the shards (and forget where they dropped), or run all over the map (instead of using an archwing), or are not able to jump to the shrine (falling into Gara Toth multiple times for 5-10 minutes), or immediately rez themselves every time, dying their final death before even the Gantu is finished. If they went and sat outside the gate to the plains it would be semiacceptable, since there they would not actually hinder the mission.

Now, I understand everybody starts as noobs, also when hunting eidolons. But forcing noobs to play in the top league from the start is just stupid. Even in warframe.  

While you can get into a good team through the recruit channel, there are some quite ridiculous quirks related to that as well (like players with limited personal experience having very strict "rules" who'll they'll accept, rules which they themselves can't even pass 🙂).

There really needs to be some sort of experience and/or equipment wall for Tridolon hunts. It would change the game into something better, and remove a LOT of frustration and aggro. The current "filter", that the player wanting to participate in a Tridolon hunt just needs to have an amp (any amp, even a level 0 Mote will do) is slightly ridiculous. For the Teralyst hunt it is ok, but for joining a hunt with the specific aim of bringing down the Teralyst, Gantulyst and Hydrolyst in a row... come on.

It's simple really . Create your own squad .

[Graavarg]

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎28 at 6:31 PM, W3zeer said:

…

And installing those barriers could be a bit harder than you might imagine, would you seperate for mastery rank? That's a very weak indicator of actual player skill. Using your weapons as a metric doesn't work too well either, especially since we don't have a real rating system for them in place and rivens can make quite the difference. Although since DE pretty effectivly killed the concept of freedom of choice they could indeed request you using one of the 4 (or 5) frames of choice and a Lanka for being able to group up 😉 .

The thing is you advocate that the wishes of ppl that want to be able to cap as many eidolons as possible should be worth more than those of the ppl who only want a relaxed run with a single cap. But that's not how public works.

…

No, I agree completely that MR is a bad indicator as a filter for Tridolon hunts. I also think that the best way is not a filter, but a matchmaking algorithm that actually considers players stats when pairing them. Of course this would mean that it gets even harder for less experienced hunters, but on the other hand they would actually learn more (than they do by coasting a mission where a couple of experienced hunters does all the heavy lifting).

I have absolutely nothing against "mixed" teams, and ONCE AND FOR ALL, this has NOTHING to do with meta-hunts. No sane player wanting to do 3x3 reliably would EVER consider a public Konzu bounty mission. But I think that the toxicity in public Tridolon hunts, as well as the prevalent aborting at the start of the mission could easily be reduced if the team composition would be handled better by the game. I don't care how.

The recruit chat or forming an own squad is not a solution to this problem, it is just a way (or two actually) around it. You can also form a one-man squad and do the Tridolon solo, which is quite fun in its own way, it takes a bit longer, but is, somewhat surprisingly, less hectic. But in a game focusing on team play, forcing players do to solo missions in order to avoid toxicity, salt and host "has left the building"-crashes is a symptom of something being broken.

BTW, there still isn't anyone who has commented that the current Tridolon bounty mission is working great… 🙂

 

[Graavarg]

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎29 at 1:28 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

All this talk of gating off with some kind of entry barrier is kind of the wrong way round - you're talking about the symptom, not the cause.

For new players getting started against Eidolons is an absolute pain - I mean, first you have to have beaten most of the game's other bosses and beat the World Within, but then all you get is the Mote amp.

And the Mote is garbage.

To get a good amp you have to fish. Well, grind ranks to catch fish to grind more ranks to buy the bait that lets you catch another fish that lets you get yet another bait (more grinding for the BP) that finally gets you the fish parts (only at night, when lucky) you need for a decent amp.

Assuming you've also been grinding wisps and mining.

And then you have a boss that's immune to status, which is very unusual - chances are all your best guns by around MR8-10 (when you beat War Within) will be status builds. The Lua sentients you'll have just been fighting are all about as much and varied status as possible.

So don't blame the players, blame the PoE grind. There needs to be some kind of lead in - sub bosses with quests that introduce the Eidolon damage profiles (crit and void only) and amp parts. That's how you get rid of players stumbling into the Eidolon fight with no idea how to beat it.

 

WEll, I can mostly agree with you. But my gripe was not the "normal" Eidolon bounty (= one Teralyst), but how the game handles players that select the Tridolon bounty mission (= one Teralyst, one Gantulyst and one Hydrolyst, all in one mission).

I mean, at the stage of the game when one Teralyst is quite challenging… 😉 

If you would have to participate in 5 or 10 successful Teralyst hunts and kill at least yourself before trying to take down all three, then it would sort of guarantee that you at least knows the general idea...

Edited August 30, 2018 by Graavarg

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2018-08-30 at 11:32 PM, Graavarg said:

But my gripe was not the "normal" Eidolon bounty (= one Teralyst), but how the game handles players that select the Tridolon bounty mission (= one Teralyst, one Gantulyst and one Hydrolyst, all in one mission).

I totally agree there - while the mechanism for summoning the next *lyst is quite cool, I'd do away with it and instead make it work similar to relic missions. You should need the relevant shard in your inventory before you can start the mission to kill the next tier of boss.