Revenant's 4 energy cost was increased.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Noibat said:

Buddy...  I just addressed that.  The fact that you feel it's  unnecessary,  does not change the fact that it's  still an incredibly powerful skill.  The fact that you can make a build around wukong that doesn't need that skill at all, also reinforces the fact that he's  not as bad as you keep saying.  The FACT is,  whether you consider it necessary or not,  Defy is still, exactly as I said,  an incredibly powerful skill, which functions as both immortality and, with a single mod,  an infinite energy pool.  "it isn't  necessary" doesn't change that.  It isn't  necessary for YOU.  others build entirely around it.  Why?  Because Wukong is good enough that you can build in a few different ways and do well. 

 

But yeah,  if you want to keep ignoring my points and going back to "but it isn't necessary " then this will indeed become circular. 

I mean, what? Seriously, what? What builds are there for Wukong? He does 2 things and that's it, tank and deal short range damage. Tanking comes from Defy, and short range damage comes from Primal Fury.

If I can make a build that allows him to tank without Defy and still deal a ton of short range damage, then Defy is obsolete, obsolete abilities are bad, that is a FACT. To argue otherwise is just ridiculous. This whole conversation is ridiculous.

Hell, you even bring up ''but others build just for Defy'', so what? People are lazy, Nidus, Chroma, Valkyr and Rhino can be just as tanky in relevant content whilst providing other benefits, such as status immunity and team buffs, they just require a bit more effort. Ergo, people only build for Defy for that lazy immortality, and that doesn't make it ''good'' at all. 

Who do you think perhaps knows more, in this situation? Lazy noobs who just want easy immortality, or someone who's actually played Wukong for hours on end and tried out numerous different builds? I've never actually played that card before, but this conversation is irksome enough that I am.

Yeah, I'm just done. This is ridiculous. I can't argue with someone who thinks that Wukong is good and I can't argue with someone who thinks an obsolete defensive skill is good.

[Noibat]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I mean, what? Seriously, what? What builds are there for Wukong? He does 2 things and that's it, tank and deal short range damage. Tanking comes from Defy, and short range damage comes from Primal Fury.

If I can make a build that allows him to tank without Defy and still deal a ton of short range damage, then Defy is obsolete, obsolete abilities are bad, that is a FACT. To argue otherwise is just ridiculous. This whole conversation is ridiculous.

Hell, you even bring up ''but others build just for Defy'', so what? People are lazy, Nidus, Chroma, Valkyr and Rhino can be just as tanky in relevant content whilst providing other benefits, such as status immunity and team buffs, they just require a bit more effort. Ergo, people only build for Defy for that lazy immortality, and that doesn't make it ''good'' at all. 

Who do you think perhaps knows more, in this situation? Lazy noobs who just want easy immortality, or someone who's actually played Wukong for hours on end and tried out numerous different builds? I've never actually played that card before, but this conversation is irksome enough that I am.

Yeah, I'm just done. This is ridiculous. I can't argue with someone who thinks that Wukong is good and I can't argue with someone who thinks an obsolete defensive skill is good.

You could flip that argument and say that his 4th is obsolete,  because you can make a build that tanks well and does great damage without it.  We can go in circles all day mate.  In the end it's just our opinions.  You can call defy lazy,  I can call spamming 4 lazy.  Works both ways. 

 

And yes, I do agree that his kit revolves around either of those skills.  Kind of why I brought him up in the first place?  Most frames rely only on one or two skills...  That was literally my entire point. 

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Noibat said:

You could flip that argument and say that his 4th is obsolete

Not much of a flip, I agree that it's obsolete. I only use it because it's fun, not because it's good.

Oh hey, look at that, you just pointed out that another of his abilities is has very limited use. It's almost as if he has an outdated, obsolete and ultimately worthless kit, exactly what I've been saying. 

1 minute ago, Noibat said:

Kind of why I brought him up in the first place?  Most frames rely only on one or two skills...  That was literally my entire point. 

Don't care, didn't read. Just saw someone saying Defy was good and that Wukong had an okay skillset, so I came to provide evidence to the contrary lest other people actually listen.

[Marvelous_A]

4 hours ago, WindigoTG said:

You mean you need a training wheels for certain kind of missions? Kinda like Loki for spies?

So basically you can't think of any mission Revenant is good at? Coz I don't think anybody is expecting a question to be the answer to another question.

If you can't prove his "uniqueness" helps him to perform better in certain thing than we call this "useless gimmick" and it's all this frame has to offer.

[Noibat]

20 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not much of a flip, I agree that it's obsolete. I only use it because it's fun, not because it's good.

Oh hey, look at that, you just pointed out that another of his abilities is has very limited use. It's almost as if he has an outdated, obsolete and ultimately worthless kit, exactly what I've been saying. 

Don't care, didn't read. Just saw someone saying Defy was good and that Wukong had an okay skillset, so I came to provide evidence to the contrary lest other people actually listen.

Except you actually didn't  provide any evidence at all.  All you said was, basically, that the skill was more powerful than the game itself lol. And that people who use it are just lazy.  So basically you proved my point.  Two of them. 

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, Noibat said:

Except you actually didn't  provide any evidence at all.  All you said was, basically, that the skill was more powerful than the game itself lol. And that people who use it are just lazy.  So basically you proved my point.  Two of them. 

Out of curiosity, are you trolling? You've ignored every bit of evidence I've provided, you've failed to read half of what I posted and you've missed every utterance of the word "obsolete" and "unnecessary" and now you're feigning ignorance of it all.

If you're a troll, I must say good job, because I'm genuinely pretty wound up by the ridiculousness of your posts. 

[GPrime96]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Out of curiosity, are you trolling? You've ignored every bit of evidence I've provided, you've failed to read half of what I posted and you've missed every utterance of the word "obsolete" and "unnecessary" and now you're feigning ignorance of it all.

If you're a troll, I must say good job, because I'm genuinely pretty wound up by the ridiculousness of your posts. 

He got to be DeMonkey.

[Noibat]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Out of curiosity, are you trolling? You've ignored every bit of evidence I've provided, you've failed to read half of what I posted and you've missed every utterance of the word "obsolete" and "unnecessary" and now you're feigning ignorance of it all.

If you're a troll, I must say good job, because I'm genuinely pretty wound up by the ridiculousness of your posts. 

😂  He's got 2 good skills,  but otherwise wukong is trash.  Initially I brought him up to contrast the effectiveness of revanent's ability to utilize all his skills, but you jumped on it so hard I had to entertain myself a bit... 😂 

 

That being said,  I do legit believe his Defy is an effective skill.  It is basically obsolete for 90% of the game's content,  and the last 10% where it is relevant,  his other skills become useless. As opposed to revanent, who's Enthrall,  Mesmer,  Reave,  and Danse Macabre all scale equally well and provide a synergistic,  fun frame to play from start to end. 

 

And now we're back on topic 😂 ✌ 

[Firetempest]

I slowboated my way to 30 with Rev and used every power on my way. Even #3 a few times.

Thralls are dumb and don't head toward enemies where the pillars would be most effective. They may not even follow me into an adjacent room. Dumb sacks of wheat ready to be milled.

The skin is a aces high hand of get out of jail free cards with a few uno reverses. Like it.

Reave is hot garbo for it's base cost. And wow, health cutting my thralls to make them easier to kill. When they just stand there pointing their faces at me not shooting the things across the room. Even with nox argument, he's just standing there enthralled. Any decent gun will still blow it's head off at lvl 100 instead of softening it up for ~50 energy. Your health will always be fine with skin for the most part, and shields Regen. I'll be getting enough shields back with frying my thralls with #4.

#4. Dance magic dance...

A basic oh shi- button. And plenty of over shields, for me, not for team. Because my thralls won't go off and do something useful in front of me. They stand by my side waiting for the sweet release of death.

The over arching "usefulness" of thralls in all abilities is hampered by you guessed it. Thralls. Everyone loves to kill anything standing. If it didn't instantly fall over, it must have been a friendly. Dumb not very aggressive ai, or so aggressive and angry it can't find it's way around some stairs to it's desired target. Reave is just... Limited in need. 

Wish thralls, once killed, turned into energy ghosts for one last charge to the enemy like a vom and then created a Pillar, since you can never put them in a position where these freaking pillars are useful. And then it's fine if every team member ever kills them on sight. Guess that will be a augment. No point making it useful now when it can be CoNtEnT later.

Wish reave could harvest light pillars for some energy kickback. Or change thrall drops from #4 to energy. Voms drop energy. A dozen other powers and items already give bits overshield. Yay, more paper ehp.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

He got to be DeMonkey.

Indeed... I just hope they never bring this logic to a proper feedback thread.

It might only be effective in the 5% of the game where Wukong doesn't shine anyway (ESO), but it's so good in that situation that the ability as a whole is good!

 Just no. 

Ah well, as for Revenant I suspect he'll get several more passes before DE are fully happy with him.

 

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Ah well, as for Revenant I suspect he'll get several more passes before DE are fully happy with him.

He would probably be like Khora again. Fully Reworked and tweaked before DE ignores him while they are working on Garuda.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

He would probably be like Khora again. Fully Reworked and tweaked before DE ignores him while they are working on Garuda.

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, I understand from several posters that Khora is in a pretty decent spot now?

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, I understand from several posters that Khora is in a pretty decent spot now?

Yeah Khora is decent right now but with her, she got Reworked and fully buffed when she started bad. Look at how Revenant is now. Uhhh DE.

[Marvelous_A]

43 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

-snip-

Make a lot of sense. I think DE designed enthralled enemies to be ever-growing fodders for Revenant to replenish health/shield/CC but for some reason they take damage from all sources including enemeis and allies. They don't get any kind of buff or damage reduction after being thralled. This ability won't work at all if you happen to be in the same team with nukes coz all your thralls get killed instantly. They also suffers from bad AI so they may not be in the good spot when you need them for Reave, or even walk straight into your line of fire and get killed. And on top of that DE made sure to give them a timer too so it's entirely useless if you modded for low duration. I just don't know how is this ability supposed to work.

His 2nd is ok, not outstanding for a defensive ability but kay. Although I think they should give more indication for stunned enemies coz I can't tell which enemy get stunned in a big fight.

The idea of his 3rd is not so bad TBH and sounds like a good panic button..."sounds like". The cast animation is soooo long a lot of enemies can kill you when you're trying to cast Reave. It's close to useless if you want to cast it AFTER you start taking damage. It's essentially an expensive, longer slide with a chance of replenishing your health, that's it.

His 4th is...mediocre, at best. Actually after all these years I thought a pure damage ultimate would be the last thing DE could think of. And now we have this which is an ability version of Broken Bull combo of Cleaving Whirlwind. Thralled enemies will block and get killed the lasers, effectively limiting your DPS potential, weakening your protection while giving you mediocre benefit (50 overshield so useful kek), you can't cast 1st and 2nd also so you've got no protection while casting this ability. It's actually suicide if you're trying to cast this in high level mission coz it takes a long time to kill enemies while enemies hardly need a bullet to kill you. The energy cost is unusually high for the damage it provides. You also can't aim the laser and they will not hit enemies above you and lower than you. You've got no vertical mobility too.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[Marekthejester]

il y a 48 minutes, VPrime96 a dit :

Yeah Khora is decent right now but with her, she got Reworked and fully buffed when she started bad. Look at how Revenant is now. Uhhh DE.

To be honest, i think it's better to make it this way rather than making it too powerfull and having to nerf it.

The reason lie in the way people think. When something strong get nerfed, everyone start to rant and complain how the thing is now garbage (A bit like some people currently do about Revenant's 4). But when something weak gets buffed, those who already enjoyed it are rejoyced and people who dropped it feel the need to try it again. 

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Noibat said:

Here's a prime example to knock off some nonsense you've been saying.  You don't  NEED to use those skills in conjunction to face endgame content.  Saryn can  just press 1, wait a second,  kill the infected enemy,  and clear the entire room.  Done.  Damage scales to 100k per tick. 

Rhino doesn't  need to use charge or stomp.  Are they handy?  Sure.  Necessary?  Nope.  Press 2, press 3. Done.  Can handle any content with just that combo, unless you really suck.  It's been that way for 4 years. 

Frost is the one frame I'll sort of agree with you on.  His avalanche does have some use in extreme level content. But,  his globe is all you really need.  It functions as a CC and an immortality bubble all in one.  I haven't found any instance in which I needed to use avalanche to CC,  even in a sortie defense.  Bubble,  shoot,  win.  

This goes back to my previous point- every frame has one or two skills which make or break your build.  Most min maxers focus solely on those one or two skills.  This is how it's been for almost the entirety of warframe's existence.  Using Mesmer and Danse as reasons why Enthrall is no good,  is simply a fallacy.  

It isnt about "can handle" or "doesn't need". It is about Frame balance and kits that work well as a whole. Being able to min-max (which you even mention). Currently you cannot min-max Rev and use his Enthrall, the whole skill is counter productive and became even more so with the cost increase to Dance which changed modding needs for him.

Even if you build Frost or Rhino for a specific skill or two, there is no drawback for them in using the other skills actively aswell. A Rhino built for IS will build for strength, armor and his charge to max it out. He will still be able to use Stomp and Roar without any drawback in his gameplay. Same as Frost building for Avalanche, he will still use strength and armor mods and be able to toss out a decent globe around an objective. It may not be the best globe and it might be a tad too big, but he cant still use it to provide something for himself and the team with that skill at no real drawback. Saryn will still make use of her Molt in a tricky situation to drop aggro, no drawback in her gameplay either even if you build for her 1, 3 and 4.

Rev will however have an even more useless enthrall than it is to begin with. It is also not a skill you can build around in order to make it a useful replacement as a main skill. I mean, I dont use Dance 24/7, I use it against large crowds for a few seconds at a time. This should give me enough room to use his thralls in between while shooting/chopping the enemy down, however, the skill is just so bad that it isnt worth it. I dont wanna use it on enemies far off, because that just slows the mission down, I dont wanna use it on enemies close by either because that is just a waste of energy since they'll be dead a second later.

edit: My point is simply. Enthrall is bad and increasing the cost of Dance in hopes that it would somehow make people use Enthrall more just wasnt a good choice. It wasnt the cost of Dance that was the issue, the issue was and still is Enthrall being a bad power with bad synergy for his kit. Make the skill attractive and people may use it. Increasing the cost on Dance simply ment reducing the range on Enthrall aswell, so the "nerf" to Dance was also really a passive nerf to Enthrall due to itemization options/need.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Noibat]

@SneakyErvin That was pretty well said over all,  and I do agree with most of it...  Except the idea that Enthrall is bad. I really don't think it is.  Especially now that they nearly doubled his thrall capacity.  Thralls draw aggro,  can be used to restore HP and shields,  damage enemies,  and drop a DoT on death.  Granted,  the last bit is really somewhat iffy,  due to the nature of the thrall's AI...

 

I also don't really think his 4th was 'nerfed' in order to push his other skills,  so much that it was nerfed because it was really ridiculous.  I played matches where people literally just pressed 4 at the start of the match and did not stop spinning for 5 minutes at a time.  It really needed a balance.  No,  it doesn't have the DPS or range of Mesa or Titania,  but it has mobility that Mesa lacks and he's got survivability that Titania [SORELY] lacks.  All in all I don't  consider it a nerf so much as a balance.  The buff to Enthrall was definitely called for though.  4 was way too few. 7 seems pretty good.  10 would probably be overkill...  Tbh I wouldn't  mind if they made it so teammates couldn't  kill them,  or that they could only be damaged by Reave.  But even as they are,  their utility is nice.  His balance overall is much better than most frames, and he scales better than half the frames who REALLY need work. (what the HELL did they do to Ember?!) 

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, Noibat said:

@SneakyErvin That was pretty well said over all,  and I do agree with most of it...  Except the idea that Enthrall is bad. I really don't think it is.  Especially now that they nearly doubled his thrall capacity.  Thralls draw aggro,  can be used to restore HP and shields,  damage enemies,  and drop a DoT on death.  Granted,  the last bit is really somewhat iffy,  due to the nature of the thrall's AI...

 

I also don't really think his 4th was 'nerfed' in order to push his other skills,  so much that it was nerfed because it was really ridiculous.  I played matches where people literally just pressed 4 at the start of the match and did not stop spinning for 5 minutes at a time.  It really needed a balance.  No,  it doesn't have the DPS or range of Mesa or Titania,  but it has mobility that Mesa lacks and he's got survivability that Titania [SORELY] lacks.  All in all I don't  consider it a nerf so much as a balance.  The buff to Enthrall was definitely called for though.  4 was way too few. 7 seems pretty good.  10 would probably be overkill...  Tbh I wouldn't  mind if they made it so teammates couldn't  kill them,  or that they could only be damaged by Reave.  But even as they are,  their utility is nice.  His balance overall is much better than most frames, and he scales better than half the frames who REALLY need work. (what the HELL did they do to Ember?!) 

All I really want is for his thralls to work as spores. Cast once, play active, auto spread to nearest unaffected enemy on death caused by Rev or friendly players. That would make it worth using no matter the build. With the cost changes to Dance it would still require you to make choices. More expensive Dance but reliable range on thralls, or a cheaper Dance and shorter thrall cast/spread range. This would actually give us options for great and fun ranged or melee builds where dance may not be the focus. I'd far prefer a spread mechanic over immunity to friendly damage. Immunity would not solve the poor A.I with the limited number of thralls. They'd just get stuck somewhere and do nothing, while a spread mechanic would have them "move" with you as you kill.

Right now he has competative AoE damage, but there are other frames that do it better. He just happens to be very good at handling all enemy types due to syncing damage.

Edited August 31, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Noibat]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

All I really want is for his thralls to work as spores. Cast once, play active, auto spread to nearest unaffected enemy on death caused by Rev or friendly players. That would make it worth using no matter the build. With the cost changes to Dance it would still require you to make choices. More expensive Dance but reliable range on thralls, or a cheaper Dance and shorter thrall cast/spread range. This would actually give us options for great and fun ranged or melee builds where dance may not be the focus. I'd far prefer a spread mechanic over immunity to friendly damage. Immunity would not solve the poor A.I with the limited number of thralls. They'd just get stuck somewhere and do nothing, while a spread mechanic would have them "move" with you as you kill.

Right now he has competative AoE damage, but there are other frames that do it better. He just happens to be very good at handling all enemy types due to syncing damage.

I can concede that spreading on death would be better than spreading on damage,  as they do now.  That would prevent the very common instances in which they get wiped out instantly. 

 

However, in order to balance that, they would need to limit the number of DoT pillars..  Imagine enthralling 7, then killing them,  which enthralls another 7 in less than a second,  and repeat...  The floor would be completely saturated in the things.  

 

 

On second thought that actually sounds pretty damned amazing... 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat

[Zeclem]

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

You get the point, to completely understand a frame's strength you need to look at everything it can do. 

Most people seems to get Revenant gameplay wrong. Thrall aren't supposed to stay alive, they're supposed to be disposable meatshield. You enthrall a few ennemies, let it spread a bit than kill the thrall and stack the light pillar. And if all your thrall gets killed, it's not very important, since you can enthrall for free with mesmer skin. Also, Enthrall can help remove the most threatening ennemies, lvl 100 Nox is killing your team ? Enthrall it and he's no longer a threat and your allies can kill it easily.

enthrall does literally what nearly every other cc ability does in the game without being all that good at it. its not about the energy cost. its not about its damage dealing power. its about its limitations on its max number of enemies held back from shooting you. it doesnt do anything spectacular. 

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

Regarding Mesmer skin, it's fine you can't refresh it or it get shredded by rapid fire because mesmer skin basically makes you invincible. If you could have it constantly up, we would run into another wukong problem.

except wukong is not a problem at all, especially when half of the units in game has a way of taking away your energy or deactivating your skills.

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

Reave seems underwhelming at first, but the key here lies in the percentage. You steal 40% of a thrall health, it's doesn't really shine at low lvl but at high lvl, to keep with the nox example, not only do you remove him from the battle, you also instantly remove almost half his health.

the thing is, thralls get nuked just like everything else in public play or hell, even by yourself with aoe weapons/punchtrough at times. so how stealing %40 of thrall health on a frame that doesnt even have the max hp to store all that stuff is helpful when he can get completely erased from existance cus of his quickly destroyed mesmer skin and weak base survivability?

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

And finally Danse macabre. This skill is good, maybe too good. It has one of the highest reach in the game and deal very high damage and also procs lot of status. If nothing had be done, player would have simply kept using only this skill and Revenant would have become the new go to nuke. You're not supposed to be constantly using it, you're supposed to use it to kill the thrall for overshield or as a panic button to wipe the room.

how is this too good when every other damaging ult in the game comes on overall better frames, do more damage quicker and has less energy cost? cus overshields that remove the aggro gathering? you know shields are ignored in ehp calculations for a reason right? and if i want overshields i'll go play volt with his ults augment for he actually brings tons more use to a team and to solo play with much higher number of overshields.

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

The biggest weakness i can find for revenant is that he's a shield tank, and shield are very weak currently.

theres no such a thing as a "shield tank", and its exactly for that reason.

6 hours ago, Marekthejester said:

But regardless, Revenant is a good frame, you just need to experiment, to look for a way to take advantage of his skill. Now, i can understand that his gameplay might not be your cup of tea. Maybe you like to press one key and watch all those pretty numbers around you. Or maybe you just don't want to experiment and play a straightforward frame.   

hes not a good frame when there are quite a lot of frames that do everything he does but better and cheaper, sorry.

5 hours ago, Noibat said:

Using it in combination with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline turns Defy into an energy Regen skill.  It's  literally a one step immortality skill. I know Wukong is your favorite frame and you don't want him changed,  which is probably why you have this weird tendency to shyte talk him when a Nerf is suggested and talk him up when someone complains he's too weak. Neat mental game there.  But regardless,  he has an immortality button. And the argument that you need to sacrifice a mod  slot to make it work isn't really there either,  since you can easily get rid of a survival mod like redirection in it's place,  and you don't  need to mod for efficiency either,  since  defy+rage works as an infinite energy buff. 

But yeah.  Wukong's Cloud sucks so I guess he's  trash. 

1-it does not turn defy into an energy regen skill at all as long as wukong will have base shields. so no, its not "literally one step immortality skill". 
2-i'd suggest reading. whenever someone mentions something about wukong here, he always(including this time as well) mentions how much he wants a large scale rework on his abilities. also your dull sarcasm and passive agressivism induced ad hominem is noted. 
3-i know its going to sound rude, but if you seriously think redirection is a viable "survivability" mod to even consider saying "you can replace a survivability mod like redirection" you really need to play the game more before trashtalk other peoples opinions on game balance if you want your opinions to have any real merit. 

[Noibat]

@Zeclem you obviously just skimmed through the entire conversation lol.  I'm  not even going to address your 'points' because you obviously don't  know what was discussed previously. 

 

And don't  tell someone who's been in the game for twice as long as you, to play the game more 😂 ✌ 

[Zeclem]

14 minutes ago, Noibat said:

@Zeclem you obviously just skimmed through the entire conversation lol.  I'm  not even going to address your 'points' because you obviously don't  know what was discussed previously. 

ofc i "skimmed" it. it made no sense at all on your part. you just flat out ignored what monkey said(which he had supplied proper evidence, i might add) to claim some nonsense repeatedly.

14 minutes ago, Noibat said:

And don't  tell someone who's been in the game for twice as long as you, to play the game more 😂 ✌ 

you have 300 hours on your profile. i have 1760. so no need to be rude when its you who will get the bad end of this conversation.

i just pointed out that you are very misinformed on how the game balance works as a whole if you consider redirection as a viable method of survivability. but we really do not need to know that from everything else you keep saying in this thread. 

[Noibat]

18 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

ofc i "skimmed" it. it made no sense at all on your part. you just flat out ignored what monkey said(which he had supplied proper evidence, i might add) to claim some nonsense repeatedly.

you have 300 hours on your profile. i have 1760. so no need to be rude when its you who will get the bad end of this conversation.

i just pointed out that you are very misinformed on how the game balance works as a whole if you consider redirection as a viable method of survivability. but we really do not need to know that from everything else you keep saying in this thread. 

I never said 'viable', I said it is a survival mod.  And it is exactly that- a survival mod.  It increases your shield,  which in turn increases your survivilability.  Period.  Not only that,  but I said a 'survival mod LIKE redirection'.

Which basically means any survival mod at all, I just used that as an example.  The only exception being Vitality,  as more hp=more energy. 

 

Secondly, yes,  Defy is LITERALLY a one step immortality skill.  Step one Defy.  Now you're  immortal.  The only added steps are when you use it as an energy Regen,  which it works fantastically as.  The harder the content, the better the skill. 

You obviously need to reconsider your reading comprehension, or perhaps rethink jumping into a conversation that has been settled,  like you're some kind of walking echo chamber.  

 

And finally,  I have two Warframe accounts, one for PC and one for PS4. You're  almost definitely connected to steam,  which counts all hours the game is open. I am not connected to steam, and the system only counts hours in-mission. Not that I really give a damn- point is that i've been following the game for a LONG time.  I don't  need you to decide for me whether something is viable, not that I ever even mentioned viability.  That's  just your own lack of literacy. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat

[Zeclem]

2 minutes ago, Noibat said:

I never said 'viable', I said it is a survival mod.  And it is exactly that- a survival mod.  It increases your shield,  which in turn increases your survivilability.  Period. 

the fact that you considered redirection as something that exists in peoples builds so it could be "replaced" and the fact that you clearly consider overshields of revs 4 thrall kills clearly points towards you thinking shields are somehow a good and useful stat which only changed tone now, after i pointed out my gametime. 

2 minutes ago, Noibat said:

Secondly, yes,  Defy is LITERALLY a one step immortality skill.  Step one Defy.  Now you're  immortal.  The only added steps are when you use it as an energy Regen,  which it works fantastically as.  The harder the content, the better the skill. 

monkey already pointed it out that energy made by defy is only going to get used by defy. his 1 and 3 is ultra trash and his 4 costs very little energy to maintain anyway. 

and no content is difficult enough to make semi immortality(yes, semi, nullfiers and energy drainers exist everywhere) actually useful or good most of the time.

2 minutes ago, Noibat said:

You obviously need to reconsider your reading comprehension, or perhaps rethink jumping into a conversation that has been settled,  like you're some kind of walking echo chamber.  

you need to stop being unnecesarily rude to people when they point out the misinformation you are sharing and advocating to the point of strawmans and ad hominems.

and its a forum. no conversation is "settled" as long as a mod doesnt lock the thread(which they might as well at this point tbh), especially when the conversation was just you completely ignoring the evidence provided to you cus "you dont think so" and people giving up on trying to reason with your lack of argumentation skills and clear misinformation in game balance. 

[GPrime96]

8 minutes ago, Noibat said:

  And it is exactly that- a survival mod.  It increases your shield,  which in turn increases your survivilability. 

The worst part of your Survivability

10 minutes ago, Noibat said:

 as more hp=more energy.

Only if you was using Rage/Quick Thinking.