Revenant's 4 energy cost was increased.

[Arkrom]

Okay... I never actually noticed that, thanks! Seems like Fleeting expertise is far more... niche than I thought it is. I can make it work for me now, though.

[Zeclem]

31 minutes ago, Marekthejester said:

Having played him, i can can say he's not too bad in survival. He can be pretty good at defense, put some thrall near the cryopod and the enemies will focus on them instead.

yeah only to be instagibbed by your teammates. 

31 minutes ago, Marekthejester said:

But again, i'll tell the same, he doesn't need to "excel" at something, he need to be good. Take Excalibur, he doesn't really excel in anything, but he's not a bad choice for most mission type. What about Mag ? She can be good pretty much everywhere, but she'll never be as good at wiping everything as Saryn or at Crowd Control as Nova. 

excal doesnt excel in anything? are we playing the same excal? he has one of the best cc abilities in game and has massive damage with chromatic blade in a very sizeable aoe. he excels in those. and mag has better cc and support potential than saryn, and is one of the best frames in locking zones down. and she has better overall damage than nova as well.

31 minutes ago, Marekthejester said:

The important thing is to have fun, not to be the most efficient/powerfull player in the mission. It's a game. 

the point is there are a lot frames that do everything useful in revenants kit by themselves. mesa for example, kills better with less energy, has tons better cc and has incredible tankiness in comparison.

[WindigoTG]

8 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

OK maybe you tell us in what mission Revenant excels at? How does his uniqueness give us an upper hand in certain kind of mission? 

You mean you need a training wheels for certain kind of missions? Kinda like Loki for spies?

[ZenDash]

16 hours ago, SilverRook said:

mesmer skin ..... wtf ? does anyone actually use this ?

are you kidding? its basically iron skin that stuns and redirects the damage at them AND makes you immune to knockdowns.

[SilverRook]

1 minute ago, ZenDash said:

are you kidding? its basically iron skin that stuns and redirects the damage at them AND makes you immune to knockdowns.

I must be stacking to much health and armour to notice then.

[Marekthejester]

Il y a 1 heure, Zeclem a dit :

excal doesnt excel in anything? are we playing the same excal? he has one of the best cc abilities in game and has massive damage with chromatic blade in a very sizeable aoe. he excels in those. and mag has better cc and support potential than saryn, and is one of the best frames in locking zones down. and she has better overall damage than nova as well.

You get the point, to completely understand a frame's strength you need to look at everything it can do. 

Most people seems to get Revenant gameplay wrong. Thrall aren't supposed to stay alive, they're supposed to be disposable meatshield. You enthrall a few ennemies, let it spread a bit than kill the thrall and stack the light pillar. And if all your thrall gets killed, it's not very important, since you can enthrall for free with mesmer skin. Also, Enthrall can help remove the most threatening ennemies, lvl 100 Nox is killing your team ? Enthrall it and he's no longer a threat and your allies can kill it easily.

Regarding Mesmer skin, it's fine you can't refresh it or it get shredded by rapid fire because mesmer skin basically makes you invincible. If you could have it constantly up, we would run into another wukong problem.

Reave seems underwhelming at first, but the key here lies in the percentage. You steal 40% of a thrall health, it's doesn't really shine at low lvl but at high lvl, to keep with the nox example, not only do you remove him from the battle, you also instantly remove almost half his health.

And finally Danse macabre. This skill is good, maybe too good. It has one of the highest reach in the game and deal very high damage and also procs lot of status. If nothing had be done, player would have simply kept using only this skill and Revenant would have become the new go to nuke. You're not supposed to be constantly using it, you're supposed to use it to kill the thrall for overshield or as a panic button to wipe the room.

The biggest weakness i can find for revenant is that he's a shield tank, and shield are very weak currently.

But regardless, Revenant is a good frame, you just need to experiment, to look for a way to take advantage of his skill. Now, i can understand that his gameplay might not be your cup of tea. Maybe you like to press one key and watch all those pretty numbers around you. Or maybe you just don't want to experiment and play a straightforward frame.   

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Now you are starting to understand. Damage and healing isn't the actual focus of thralls. Its Threat removal. Its a twofold usage. You remove high level dangers to you by controlling them, and you remove danger to yourself by redirecting attention to thralls. Used well you significantly save energy on stuff like mesmer skin.

There is nothing to "start to understand". I'm simply forcing myself to use it vs things like a Bursa or Nox, the skill still isnt needed on them. I dont use it in order to remove danger, I'm using it to make them stand there as I blast them dead. It doesnt make the skill any better. And where exactly do I save energy? Casting 1 or 2 Enthrall to make Mesmer Skin last longer? Very unlikely because when you get in there to cast Enthrall you'll likely lose Mesmer charges in the process. And if you are built for Dance you will need to get in there due to short range. Not using enthrall would mean you deal damage instead during that period of casting, meaning the mobs will be dead instead of shooting at you, resulting in a more lasting Mesmer Skin.

15 hours ago, Noibat said:

So,  again,  you seem to be suggesting that the rest of his kit is just overpowered.  I really wouldn't consider spamming 4 'the right way' to use him either.  I generally find use with all of his skills, and they all synergize well for me.  The fact that they don't do so for you just suggests you lean on other skills more.  Use his Mesmer less and his enthrall/reave more.  Suddenly they're  useful.  And vice versa.  I really can't  see a way to increase their use without nerfing other skills to compensate.  The fact alone that you don't  even need them to play endgame content shows how powerful the frame is as a whole.  Why buff it more? 

No what I'm saying is that his #1 is really bad and the rest of his kit is good. Your reasoning also proves that because you tell me to activley stop using his useful skills in order to make his underperforming skill more useful. That isnt how balance work, you shouldnt give up on using some skills to make one more useful, it simply doesnt make the skill better. Why would I wanna use Mesmer Skin less? It is a defensive buff. That would be like telling Nezha, Mesa, Rhino, Gara and Nova to not use their defensive skills.

And as I've said there are easy ways to buff his enthrall/thralls to make them useful without feeling clunky and out of place. As I mentioned, make them work similar to Spores with Reave and Dance synergizing with it like Lash/Miasma. It wouldnt make it OP since there would still be a cap of 7, it would just make it smoother to use as a whole, without having to stop and recast it over and over as people AoE things to death.

And even though he can do endgame just fine it doesnt make him powerful, every frame can do endgame well, some are really weak. Rev is OK. He is a decent option for harder content thanks to his defense and options for AoE burst. He was however supposed to be designed around his thralls and their synergy with the kit, DE have missed that mark by a longshot. The thralls are bad (like all minions) and the synergy between them and his skills are even worse.

Synergy should be like what you see with Nidus, Khora, Gara and Saryn, where skills play off eachother without feeling forced and clunky. Their skills actually strengthen the other skills in the kit. Rev gains practically nothing from his thralls. A free cast enthrall vs Mesmer stunned target, slightly more shield/hp on Reave, overshield orbs when killed by Dance... yeah, not very hot, none of it. As I said, enthrall synergies on reave and dance feel like remnants of an old idea before he got mesmer skin, an old idea that never got any proper thought.

[Formicula]

-streamline

-fleeting expertise

by using Transient Fortitude yu need

prime continuity ( need minimum 40% Duration ) at all  to decrase energy costs to 5/s 

5 energy/per second is cap

[Noibat]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

-snip

I honestly disagree.  I think they nailed him. He's well balanced,  scales well,  and has a better kit than most other frames right now.  Endgame sets almost always revolve around one or two skills- Saryn's spores, Frost's globe, Rhino's iron skin and roar,  Titania's razorwing,  Wukong's defy...  The list goes on.  Revanent can be kitted to use his entire skillset. 

 

I love what they did with him and I hope they keep him like he is. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat

[Noibat]

Double post,  oops

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat
Double post

[Noibat]

3 hours ago, WindigoTG said:

I suppose, if you play Wukong, you don't use his 2, and his 1 and 3 suddenly become useful too?

That's kind of my point.  Is one skill weak,  or is another just entirely overpowered?  Aside from his Cloud,  Wukong has an okay skillet.  His Defy,  however,  is absolutely broken.  That doesn't mean his other skills need to be buffed to ridiculous levels to match,  it just means that Defy might need some tweaking.  Maybe a cooldown timer of 15 seconds between activations would do the trick. 

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Noibat said:

I honestly disagree.  I think they nailed him. He's well balanced,  scales well,  and has a better kit than most other frames right now.  Endgame sets almost always revolve around one or two skills- Saryn's spores, Frost's globe, Rhino's iron skin and roar,  Titania's razorwing,  Wukong's defy...  The list goes on.  Revanent can be kitted to use his entire skillset. 

 

I love what they did with him and I hope they keep him like he is. 

No, just no.

Saryn isnt about spores. She is about synergy in her whole kit. Spores+Lash+Miasma. Frosts globe is also not his best tool for end-game, augmented avalanche is due to the CC, debuff and friendly buffs. It goes well together with his globe. An augmented #2 and #4 combo is probably the best on Frost for end game. And why oh why do you even mention Titania and Wukong as some prime examples? They are the two warframes most in need of attention, none of them are actually good except on a select few missions. Titania mostly for killing sortie Leph or doing Plague Star whenever it comes around.

Rhino is also very wrongly summed up by you. It is all about sync on him aswell, making all of his 4 skills very useful. Charge to increase armor, followed by an Iron Skin and then roar/stomp as needed until you need to refill IS, at which point you find a group, charge and then cast IS.

They also didnt "nail" Rev, they completely ignored the theme or failed to build around it. The thralls are not the centerpiece as they were planned to be.

edit: Also reading your Wukong post above... You... seriously... wanna... nerf Wukong? Mkay, well, you obviously have no idea what balance is.

Edited August 31, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Noibat said:

That's kind of my point.  Is one skill weak,  or is another just entirely overpowered?  Aside from his Cloud,  Wukong has an okay skillet.  His Defy,  however,  is absolutely broken.  That doesn't mean his other skills need to be buffed to ridiculous levels to match,  it just means that Defy might need some tweaking.  Maybe a cooldown timer of 15 seconds between activations would do the trick. 

@DeMonkeywould probably love to read this.

[Noibat]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

@DeMonkeywould probably love to read this.

I'm sure he would.

 

Regardless, point still stands.  At this time it's obvious we just won't  be able to agree. Call it a difference of opinion.  😂 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

@DeMonkeywould probably hate to read this.

FTFY.

@Noibat Wukong has a terrible skillset, and Defy is imo the worst of the bunch.

To explain, I'd like you to think about the general level of content that the game takes place in. Alerts and star chart are all 40 or less, Sorties are 100 and under, only ESO ever goes beyond 100 and Wukong really has no place there.

When, then, is Defy actually useful, because I have a build that can take all that without Defy and still deal huge damage... It's useful in endurance runs, where you go beyond level 100 and have to fight off enemies infinitely. It's also useful for min/maxing your damage (to a pointlessly high amount) by sacrificing survivability and thus relying on Defy. However the game isn't balanced around that, as it shouldn't be, meaning Defy has actually got... basically no use in this game.

Furthermore, other frames have more effective tank abilities for the content that we actually fight. No, Defy isn't overpowered, it's underpowered... In fact, it's worse than underpowered, in 95% of the games content it's a debuff as it drains all your energy for no reason.

[Noibat]

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, just no.

Saryn isnt about spores. She is about synergy in her whole kit. Spores+Lash+Miasma. Frosts globe is also not his best tool for end-game, augmented avalanche is due to the CC, debuff and friendly buffs. It goes well together with his globe. An augmented #2 and #4 combo is probably the best on Frost for end game. And why oh why do you even mention Titania and Wukong as some prime examples? They are the two warframes most in need of attention, none of them are actually good except on a select few missions. Titania mostly for killing sortie Leph or doing Plague Star whenever it comes around.

Rhino is also very wrongly summed up by you. It is all about sync on him aswell, making all of his 4 skills very useful. Charge to increase armor, followed by an Iron Skin and then roar/stomp as needed until you need to refill IS, at which point you find a group, charge and then cast IS.

They also didnt "nail" Rev, they completely ignored the theme or failed to build around it. The thralls are not the centerpiece as they were planned to be.

edit: Also reading your Wukong post above... You... seriously... wanna... nerf Wukong? Mkay, well, you obviously have no idea what balance is.

Here's a prime example to knock off some nonsense you've been saying.  You don't  NEED to use those skills in conjunction to face endgame content.  Saryn can  just press 1, wait a second,  kill the infected enemy,  and clear the entire room.  Done.  Damage scales to 100k per tick. 

 

Rhino doesn't  need to use charge or stomp.  Are they handy?  Sure.  Necessary?  Nope.  Press 2, press 3. Done.  Can handle any content with just that combo, unless you really suck.  It's been that way for 4 years. 

Frost is the one frame I'll sort of agree with you on.  His avalanche does have some use in extreme level content. But,  his globe is all you really need.  It functions as a CC and an immortality bubble all in one.  I haven't found any instance in which I needed to use avalanche to CC,  even in a sortie defense.  Bubble,  shoot,  win.  

This goes back to my previous point- every frame has one or two skills which make or break your build.  Most min maxers focus solely on those one or two skills.  This is how it's been for almost the entirety of warframe's existence.  Using Mesmer and Danse as reasons why Enthrall is no good,  is simply a fallacy.  

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

the point is there are a lot frames that do everything useful in revenants kit by themselves. mesa for example, kills better with less energy, has tons better cc and has incredible tankiness in comparison.

This is why Revenant shouldn’t be nerfed in the first place. There was already frames that can do better jobs than Revenant and his 4th, pre - patch, was the only ability that prevented Revenant’s Abilities from being trash.

[Noibat]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

FTFY.

@Noibat Wukong has a terrible skillset, and Defy is imo the worst of the bunch.

To explain, I'd like you to think about the general level of content that the game takes place in. Alerts and star chart are all 40 or less, Sorties are 100 and under, only ESO ever goes beyond 100 and Wukong really has no place there.

When, then, is Defy actually useful, because I have a build that can take all that without Defy and still deal huge damage... It's useful in endurance runs, where you go beyond level 100 and have to fight off enemies infinitely. It's also useful for min/maxing your damage (to a pointlessly high amount) by sacrificing survivability and thus relying on Defy. However the game isn't balanced around that, as it shouldn't be, meaning Defy has actually got... basically no use in this game.

Furthermore, other frames have more effective tank abilities for the content that we actually fight. No, Defy isn't overpowered, it's underpowered... In fact, it's worse than underpowered, in 95% of the games content it's a debuff as it drains all your energy for no reason.

Using it in combination with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline turns Defy into an energy Regen skill.  It's  literally a one step immortality skill. I know Wukong is your favorite frame and you don't want him changed,  which is probably why you have this weird tendency to shyte talk him when a Nerf is suggested and talk him up when someone complains he's too weak. Neat mental game there.  But regardless,  he has an immortality button. And the argument that you need to sacrifice a mod  slot to make it work isn't really there either,  since you can easily get rid of a survival mod like redirection in it's place,  and you don't  need to mod for efficiency either,  since  defy+rage works as an infinite energy buff. 

 

But yeah.  Wukong's Cloud sucks so I guess he's  trash. 

[Asphyxiants]

Do what you want to the number 4, make the thralls immune to friendly fire. 

[Maryph]

1-Remove the timer on his one, up the number of thralls to 10, make it spread on death like saryn spores, and make the thralls slowly decays when there're no ennemies around.
Make them immune (or not) to friendly fire, but (like the spore of saryn when the rerework firs appear) when you hold 1, all the thralls would die without spreading. Thralls are no longer leaving pillars on their death.
OR
1-Remove the timer, leave the number to 7, do not make it spread on death but immune them to friendly fire, the thralls still slowly decrease when no ennemies are around, and you could also hold one to kill every thralls.
For each thralls active, the revenant gain a buff of strenght and range, up to + 50 percent.

When you kill one thrall, one stack of mesmer skin is added until maximum stacks available is reached again.

Make his two auto enthrall.

Make his 3 insta kill thralls (and also spread it or not depending on the one) and regen stack of mesmer skin for the number of thralls you killed.

Make his 4 heal you and your team hp/shield for an amount when a thrall is killed by the ability, also, when a thrall is killed, it should confer a buff to the revenant's 4 dmg.
When you kill thralls with your 4, a little HUD display could appear, with and indicator, when 10 thralls are killed, you can activate an enhanced 4 ability that gives you more rotating speed, and more dmg (up to + 100 percent of his current damage) without increasing his energy consumption.
Thralls killed by his 4 are not spread on death, but are rather absorbed by the revenant, in order to consume them.

Passive: Eidolon's will
For each thralls active, you gain a passive amount of hp and shield, also, the regen of your hp and shield is boosted the more thralls are active.

I think those changes could solve a lot of problems while making his 4 still useful.
With this idea, the thrall are not op, but you could sacrifice them to bring you more strenght, and help your team.
His passive would revolve aroud thralls too.

And about his 4 nerf, it's not effective, I'm at 100 percent efficiency, and it still use 12.2 energy/sec, I don't know who's in charge of the frames, but I think he should take some hollidays.

[Noibat]

5 minutes ago, Asphyxiants said:

Do what you want to the number 4, make the thralls immune to friendly fire. 

This actually wouldn't be a bad idea. 

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, Noibat said:

I know Wukong is your favorite frame and you don't want him changed

You don't know much then, because I do. I want all of his abilities changed, tweaked, reworked, I've been asking as such for years and have numerous threads on the matter.

I mean, I literally just told you his skillset is trash, why would I not want that changed? 

11 minutes ago, Noibat said:

Neat mental game there.

Isn't it just. There I was thinking I'd perfected it, but you saw right through it.

That or I'm telling people that his damage is fine (which it is), and that it's everything else that's trash (which it also is). That does seem more likely than me being manipulating the community for absolutely no reason... Hmmm....

11 minutes ago, Noibat said:

But regardless,  he has an immortality button.

Which. Isn't. Necessary.

What's the point in having an immortality button if the game doesn't ever need you to be immortal? An Umbra build is more than adequate to get you through Sorties with no fuss.

11 minutes ago, Noibat said:

But yeah.  Wukong's Cloud sucks so I guess he's  trash

"Daddy, is that a strawman? Or is it someone grasping at straws?"

"I dunno son, it looks awful silly whatever it is..."

Sorry if I'm being bitter and vitriolic, I'm just really really tired of these arguments being brought up.

Edited August 31, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Noibat]

11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You don't know much then, because I do. I want all of his abilities changed, tweaked, reworked, I've been asking as such for years and have numerous threads on the matter.

I mean, I literally just told you his skillset is trash, why would I not want that changed? 

Isn't it just. There I was thinking I'd perfected it, but you saw right through it.

That or I'm telling people that his damage is fine (which it is), and that it's everything else that's trash (which it also is). That does seem more likely than me being manipulating the community for absolutely no reason... Hmmm....

Which. Isn't. Necessary.

What's the point in having an immortality button if the game doesn't ever need you to be immortal? An Umbra build is more than adequate to get you through Sorties with no fuss.

"Daddy, is that a strawman? Or is it someone grasping at straws?"

"I dunno son, it looks awful silly whatever it is..."

Sorry if I'm being bitter and vitriolic, I'm just really really tired of these arguments being brought up.

The point of an immortality button is that it makes you literally immortal,  it works as an extremely effective energy Regen as well,  with a single mod,  and the fact that the immortality itself isn't necessary is a fault of the game itself,  more so than the skill.  The fact that there just isn't difficult enough content will likely change with elite alerts.  It's also really useful in sortie missions,  and other endgame content where specific builds actually matter. 

 

An invincible frame with great power and energy Regen is pretty damned good. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Noibat

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Noibat said:

The point of an immortality button is that it makes you literally immortal,  it works as an extremely effective energy Regen as well,  with a single mod,  and the fact that the immortality itself isn't necessary is a fault of the game itself,  more so than the skill.  The fact that there just isn't difficult enough content will likely change with elite alerts.  It's also really useful in sortie missions,  and other endgame content where specific builds actually matter. 

 

An invincible frame with great power and energy Regen is pretty damned good. 

I'm not sure you're actually reading what I've posted.

Twice now I've stated that it's pretty easy to make a Sortie viable build that doesn't ever need to use Defy, and despite that you've now stated ''Defy is really useful in sortie missions''. I've also stated that Wukong has no place in ESO (for a multitude of unfortunate reasons), and given that's currently the only other ''endgame content'' that we have right now, I'm really concerned as to how much you read.

Also, who cares about energy regen with Wukong in his current state? His #1 and #3 aren't worth casting, and his #4 only costs 3eps, that's more than manageable. Defy is his biggest drain, and I'm literally telling you it's not even necessary. What does it matter if Defy can provide you with unlimited energy when it's the ability draining all your energy in the first place?

This is just going to become circular if you're not reading what I'm posting, or are so blinded by ''omahgerd it's immortality'' that you actually think that it and Wukong are good. You can make do just fine without it assuming you know how to play the game and properly mod your frame.

Ergh, waste of my time is a waste, if you want to think Wukong is a good frame then go right ahead, as a true hipster the less people play him, the more special I feel /s.

I will continue providing my feedback to the contrary however, as rationally as I can.

[Noibat]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm not sure you're actually reading what I've posted.

Twice now I've stated that it's pretty easy to make a Sortie viable build that doesn't ever need to use Defy, and despite that you've now stated ''Defy is really useful in sortie missions''. I've also stated that Wukong has no place in ESO (for a multitude of unfortunate reasons), and given that's currently the only other ''endgame content'' that we have right now, I'm really concerned as to how much you read.

Also, who cares about energy regen with Wukong in his current state? His #1 and #3 aren't worth casting, and his #4 only costs 3eps, that's more than manageable. Defy is his biggest drain, and I'm literally telling you it's not even necessary. What does it matter if Defy can provide you with unlimited energy when it's the ability draining all your energy in the first place?

This is just going to become circular if you're not reading what I'm posting, or are so blinded by ''omahgerd it's immortality'' that you actually think that it and Wukong are good. You can make do just fine without it assuming you know how to play the game and properly mod your frame.

Ergh, waste of my time is a waste, if you want to think Wukong is a good frame then go right ahead, as a true hipster the less people play him, the more special I feel /s.

I will continue providing my feedback to the contrary however, as rationally as I can.

Buddy...  I just addressed that.  The fact that you feel it's  unnecessary,  does not change the fact that it's  still an incredibly powerful skill.  The fact that you can make a build around wukong that doesn't need that skill at all, also reinforces the fact that he's  not as bad as you keep saying.  The FACT is,  whether you consider it necessary or not,  Defy is still, exactly as I said,  an incredibly powerful skill, which functions as both immortality and, with a single mod,  an infinite energy pool.  "it isn't  necessary" doesn't change that.  It isn't  necessary for YOU.  others build entirely around it.  Why?  Because Wukong is good enough that you can build in a few different ways and do well. 

 

But yeah,  if you want to keep ignoring my points and going back to "but it isn't necessary " then this will indeed become circular.